Defence and security: The strategic perspective from Turkey

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Chatham house, to this members’ meeting, where we will have the opportunity to discuss Defence and Security – The Perspective from Turkey, with Turkey’s Minister of National Defence, Dr Hulusi Akar. I will welcome him properly in a minute. I would like to say, though, however, to all of our members and guests right now, just to quickly mark, on behalf of Chatham House, my colleagues, our Council, our members, our sadness at the passing of Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, who, as I think you all know, passed away earlier today. Our thoughts are with Her Majesty, the Queen, the Patron of Chatham House, and with all of the Royal Family, at this very sad moment…

Dr Hulusi Akar

Of course, yes.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

…for the United Kingdom. So, I want to just put that marker on. It is a Friday afternoon and I’m sure this weekend will be full of some retrospectives and so on, but a moment for us to reflect, obviously, with all that’s going on in the world.

So, with that, let me turn, first, and welcome, now, Dr Akar to Chatham House, and joining us on this Friday afternoon. He has been in conversations with his UK counterparts, and we will have an opportunity to discuss the UK-Turkish defence relationship in the course of the events today. But obviously, one of the reasons we are so pleased to host him today is, there is a lot on his agenda and a lot on the agenda of Turkey’s Defence and Security Policy, that is of great interest to Chatham House, our members and, also, to everyone around the world, if I may say, Minister.

As one of the pivotal NATO members, that are countries that, obviously, right now, has a difficult relationship with many of its NATO allies, a country that is always known for its strategic location between Europe, Asia, really at the borderline of Eurasia, one could say, but with some very complex, intense relationships right now, in the Eastern Mediterranean, North Africa. And a country that is really pivotal in a lot of the relationships for the Global Security Agenda, the relationship with Iran, the relationship with Russia. And obviously, with the new administration in Washington, we’re all fascinated to know how Turkey is going to manage this critical bilateral relationship for itself and for others.

So, Dr Akar, we’re thrilled that you be with us. A couple of procedural items, before I move formally into hearing his remarks. This meeting is on the record, to remind you all. You can, therefore, publicise it however you want, on social media or other ways, as well. We will have time, definitely, for question-and-answer session later on, here. Please use the ‘Q&A’ function at the bottom of your screen. Do not use the ‘Chat’ and do not use the raise hand functions, which are not enabled. We will keep an eye on the questions as they come in and we will have the opportunity to unmute some of you to ask your questions.

If anyone needs to use translation, any Turkish participants who want to ask a question, or others on the Turkish side, we do have a translation function available here, when you ask your questions, but the Minister will be speaking in English. But it’s there for you, at the bottom of your screen, and you can choose if you want to listen to his remarks in Turkish or if you want to ask a question, that option is there at the bottom of your screen. It’s fairly obvious how to work it.

Before I turn to Dr Akar for some opening remarks on this big question, let me say here is somebody who could not be better placed, I think is the right way to put it, to describe Turkey’s approach to its security and defence. I don’t know if I should use this figure, but it’s in your official bio, Minister, but you’ve been involved for nearly 50 years in Turkish security and defence. If we go right back to your role graduating from the Military Academy in Turkey, back in 1972, having then graduated from the Army Command and Staff College in 1982, having held a number of commands as a Flag Officer, NATO commands as well. And then moving up in your rank as General, after 2011, as Deputy Chief of the Turkish General Staff, Land Forces Commander, including as Commander of the Turkish Armed Forces between 2015-18, which has given you a pivotal view, one could say, on Operation Euphrates Shield, Operation Olive Branch in Idlib. A lot of these operations that have really been so much the focus of Turkish security policy, in recent years, and ones that have really put Turkey in the core and the centre of Eurasian security and in Middle East security. And I might add, a PhD holder, as well. So, that is something that maybe you hold in common with a lot, certainly, of your American counterparts and maybe with one or two of your British counterparts.

Thank you very much, Dr Akar, for joining us, Minister. We look forward to just, maybe, some opening thoughts from you on the priorities for Turkish security and defence and then we’ll get into some questions, first from me and then from our members. Welcome, over to you.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Thank you, Robin. Yeah, I’d like to verbally thank you, Chatham House, for this great opportunity. First of all, let me offer my condolences to the people of the United Kingdom for the passing of His Royal Highness, the Duke of Edinburgh.

Chatham House is an outstanding and influential platform to explore creative solutions for current and the future security challenges. At the outset, I’d like to take this opportunity to extend my deep condolences and heartfelt sympathies for all those losses, due to the COVID-19 in the UK and elsewhere, als – too. The pandemic has demonstrated that all of humankind is on the same boat. We, as the Ministry of National Defence, geared up our facilities to produce medical supplies for our nation, as well as for other countries. Turkey has, so far, for your information, extended their assistance to more than 150 countries, Turkey-UK relations is important.

Now, to briefly the mentioned about these ties, you know, the – between Turkey and the United Kingdom have a very deep-rooted historical background by c0-operation, especially in the defence industry, is really promising. After Brexit, the UK has become a non-EU NATO ally, like Turkey. With that, I believe that our bilateral relations and strategic partnership with the UK will align more than before on the common risks and the newer collaborative opportunities. During my visit, happily, I have seen that we have similar same views on many issues. Before I go into Turkish defence and security posture, let me give you the – our perspective of the global security environment. In the first two decades of the 21st Century, we have entered a more unstable and unpredictable global security environment than ever, as you notice.

Conventional threats are accompanied by increased risk, such as terrorism, extremist ideologies, failed states, wars and conflicts, mass and irregular immigration and climate exchange. No country, society or individual is immune from the reach of radical and the violent groups and their individuals. If the quantum age of computing is coming into play, both as a possible risk and also as an enormous opportunity, in short, as the saying goes, technology remains as the proverbial double-edged sword. No country today has the luxury of assessing the – today’s global security environment, based on geographical proximity. Technological advances and means of transportation bring us closer than ever and push us to develop common courses of actions to challenges as allies and friends.

Today, most of the crises that pose risk to global peace and stability take place in our region. In the security environment, NATO remains central to Turkey’s security and Turkey is central to NATO and is a trusted NATO ally for 69 years. Turkey, alone, has been carrying a heavy burden in the face of new risks and threats. As the Secretary-General of NATO has stated, “Turkey is at the forefront of a very volatile region,” please notice. No other ally has endured more terrorist attacks. No other ally is more exposed to the instability, violence and the turmoil from the Middle East and no other NATO ally hosts as many refugees as Turkey does, many of them coming from Syria.

As a NATO ally, Turkey protects not only its borders, please note, but also, that of both NATO and EU, European Union, Turkey has been expending enormous effort, as well as resources, to fight against terrorism, prevent conflicts, while promoting global and regional peace and stability. Based on this perspective, Turkey has been supporting her friends, allies, and their partners, its partners from Syria to Libya, from the Eastern Mediterranean to Caucasus, in addition to the principle and their resolute fight against terrorism in which we paid a heavy price. Turkey’s efforts preventing humanitarian disasters and paved the way for peace processes in both Libya and Syria, while ending their occupation and the aggression in Caucasus.

As you all know, Turkey has fought with determination for years against all forms of terrorism. Today, we are conducting a relentless and resolute struggle against Daesh, also known as ISIS, and the PKK, PYD, YPG, as well as FETO, all at the same time. The PKK, a terrorist organisation outlawed in the UK, has killed more than 40,000 of our citizens. The PKK’s maintaining an active presence in Iraq, Iran and Syria, as well as in some European countries. The PKK is misleading the international community by using different names. The PKK, KCK, PYD, YPG, PJAK, YBS and the YJS are all the same terrorist organisations, with the same ideology.

The Syrian Crisis gave the PKK the opportunity to promote the YPG, its branch in Syria. The key issue here is this PKK = YPG, PKK = YPG. There’s no difference between them. They share not only the same ideology, but also, the same leadership, same methods and the same training camps. The PKK is now widely recognised as a terrorist organisation, but it took far too long for this fact to sink in among our friends and allies. Now, the same dilemma also applies, regarding the classification of the YPG as a terrorist organisation. Regrettably and deplorably, the YPG continues to receive substantial support from some of our allies, unfortunately. On the other hand, equating the curse in the region with the PKK or YPG is an insult to our Kurdish brothers and sisters. I must underline that we have no problem with neither the Kurdish people, nor any other ethnicity. Our only enemy is terrorism, terrorists. This is very, very important, I’d like to underline.

Daesh promulgates a false narrative, distorting the real meaning of Islam. Turkey has also actively participated in the Global Coalition against Daesh and has opened a [inaudible – 14:49] and bases the coalition. For its part, Turkey has paid a heavy price and the Daesh attack Turkey, causing the loss of almost 600 innocent lives. In Syria and Iraq, almost 4,000 of the most radical Daesh militants were ritualised by Turkey. We lost many brave Turkish Soldiers in these operations. I should emphasise that the Turkish Armed Forces is the only coalition army to have fought hand-in-hand against Daesh. Turkey denied 100,000 volunteers’ fighters access to Turkey, while another 9,000 were deported to their country of origin, as they were trying to enter Syria or the Turkish border.

I would like to particularly stress that attempting to affiliate terrorism with any religion or ethnic group is utterly wrong. These are what, in fact, play into the hands of terrorists. Daesh does not represent Islam, just as the PKK/YPG does not represent the Kurds. Another active and serious threat for Turkey is the Gülen’s terrorist organisation, also known as FETO, I said before. The failed coup attempt in 2016 was a test of strength for Turkish democracy and state. You will remember that the FETO’s disciples, within the armed forces, ruthlessly used lethal force against innocent civilians, killing 251 and wounding almost 2,200 citizens. Among other heinous acts, they also bombed our parliament, as well. FETO is still active through its network of schools, media entities, and the associations around the world.

We wish to see friendly and allied countries take concrete actions against members of this terrorist group, including by responding to our extradition requests for its members. Extradition of them from their country’s important. The UK was the first European country, we are very much aware of that, to condemn this attack on our democracy. That display of solidarity will not be forgotten. However, now, more needs to be done to bring its members to justice, in the aftermath of the coup attempt.

I mentioned Syria in the context of our fight against terrorism. Let me now say a few words on the wider Syrian crisis. The Syrian crisis is the bloodiest conflict in the region since World War Two. Since 2011, we have been warning the international community that Syria would become a quagmire. Regarding the last ten years of the Syrian Crisis, no doubt, Turkey has done more for the Syrians than any other country. As Turkey, we have stood with the Syrian people, since the beginning of the conflict. Our presence in Idlib has prevented a huge humanitarian tragedy and another massive influx of refugees. We have embraced millions of Syrians, including Yazidis, Arabs, Christians, Assyrians and the many other minorities, regards of their ethnic identity or faith. Turkey has invested a considerable amount of resources to return life to normal in the region immediately after the operations. This includes the repair of hospitals, schools, mosques, churches, synagogues, and the reputation of the reputation of the infrastructure, such as water, electricity and roads. Subsequently, agriculture and trade were revitalised.

So, local governments became functional. 1.1 million displaced Syrians returned to their homes in a safe, voluntary and dignified manner, to the areas that Turkey has cleared of terrorists. The ceasefire we established in Idlib in March last year, is holding, despite some violations. The ceasefire is essential to improve the humanitarian situation on the ground, prevent another refugee flow towards Turkey, Europe and beyond. Also, the political process started, fortunately. Ultimately, we wish to see a stable, democratic and politically united Syria as our neighbour.

Regarding our relations with Russia, the objective of Turkey and the Russian relations can be defined as the confliction and co-ordination to prevent mutual interference and the unwanted escalation in the crisis areas where the two states or actors in the field. It is in line with NATO’s two-layer approach. Idlib is a good example of our joint efforts. We prevented a humanitarian crisis, refugees flow out to the EU, European Union, and the further radicalisation of the people through our joint efforts with the Russian Federation.

Speaking of the burden on Turkey due to efforts to promote peace and stability, I would like to touch upon the immigration issue. Turkey is the world’s largest refugee hosting country in the past six years, according to the United Nation figures. We are hosting four million, four million Syrians, at a cost of over $40 milli – billion, $40 billion. We are also providing aid and assistance to five million internally displaced people within Syria. This influx of refugees a considerable burden shouldered by Turkey, for the benefit of Europe and beyond. Our refugee camps are not comprised of tents. When compared to those of the EU members, it is obvious that Turkish camps are providing good living conditions and improved quality of life. 53,000 houses have been already constructed for the use of the migrants. Turkey is shouldering a huge burden in the refugee issues. EU is certainly benefitting from our sacrifices that prevented refugee flow to Europe.

On the other hand, I’d like to mention here that we have been observing with great concern the recent violations of the basic human rights of refugees, both on land and in the Aegean Sea, under the pretext of protecting the EU’s borders. Sorry, I had to say – I should say. Greece is responsible for around 80,000 pushback incidents in the Aegean Sea, in the past three years. There were 9,000 pushbacks in 2020. Frontex is also responsible for some pushbacks that are investigated by the EU Commission. Such brutal acts are constantly being monitored and recorded by our Coastguard. These pushbacks are inhuman and against international law, as well. We believe that co-operation between Turkey and the EU on irregular immigration could also be useful to overcome the existing deadlocks in Turkey and EU relations.

Now, in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean Seas, there are a number of outstanding disputes. The core of these disputes are the excessive and unilateral claims by our – you know, the neighbouring – neighbour, Greece and the Greek Cypriots, which violate the sovereign rights of both Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots. Greece has violated international agreements by undermining the demilitarised status of the islands and has violated the status of the 16 of the 23 islands. Furthermore, Greece claims territorial waters of six miles, while their experts claim is ten miles. This is a one-of-a-kind approach and is only asserted by Greece in the whole world. There is no example of the history, as well. This is also the pretext for her allegations, regarding the so-called air space violations.

Turkey has the longest continental coastline in the Eastern Mediterranean, with a length of almost 2,000km. However, Greece and the Greek Cypriots are trying to impose their own maritime boundary claims, thereby trying to confine Turkey strictly to her coast. Greece claims their continental shares area of the 40,0002 km, for a tiny island of Meis, which has an area of just 102 km. This island is about 600km away from the Greek mainland. It’s obvious that such claims are neither realistic, nor fair.

On the other hand, I can assure you that Turkey has no intention of violating any country’s legitimate rights and interests. Despite these differences, I would like to firmly underline that, as Turkey, we are in favour of resolving all the outstanding problems with Greece through international law, good neighbourly relations, mutual respect, the Cypriot Alliance, respect, dialogue and negotiation. Unfortunately, Greece is still attempting to convert our bilateral issues between Turkey and the EU. We started consultative talks with our neighbour, Greece, recently. We hope these will continue and yield positive outcomes, based on international law, dialogue and good faith. We also wish to resume the confidence building measures taught with Greece. We are still waiting for their positive response for the fourth meeting. It will take place in Turkey, if they come.

From the beginning, we have supported the Deconfliction Mechanism Initiative at NATO Headquarter. We have been positive and constructive in this issue, as well. All we are asking, from our friends and allies, is to look at the Greece’s claims and practices in light of logic and the objective criteria, and compare these to Turkey’s legitimate, reasonable and common-sense approach, and do not let some member state claims its own interest above the European unity interests.

Finally, in this issue, on the Cyprus issue, the core problem is that the Greek Cypriots still aim to reduce the Turkish Cypriots to the status of a minority in their own homeland. A permanent position can only be achieved, in our understanding and the histology and the experience, by a two-step solution, based on the political equality, equality of the Turkish and the Greek Cypriots and by preserving the guarantee and the Alliance Agreements. As a guarantor country, Turkey will support a solution that will guarantee the security of the Turkish Cypriots, their historical and equal political rights, as well as their equal entitlement to the natural resources over and around the islands. And the UK, as another guarantor state, can and must play an impartial, balanced and active role in the search for a fair solution to the issue, as expected.

Now, Libya. Libya is another key region, we’re – where Turkey’s efforts directly contributed to the stability in the North Africa region. Turkey and Libya have 500 years of the common culture and history. In Libya, it has been almost two years since Haftar and his group launched an offensive of – against the country’s legitimate, United Nation recognised government in Tripoli. Our primary objective is a sovereign and stable leader, led by the Libyans and embracing their – all Libyans with its territorial integrity and the national unity intact. To that end, from the very beginning, Turkey has been providing trained assist and at one support, upon the request of, and based on the bilateral agreements with the legitimate Libyan Government.

Turkey, we, Turkey was the only country to provide concrete support in response to the call for help by the Libyan Government, GNA. Our co-operation with the legitimate Libyan Government allowed for the ceasefire and paved the way for the ongoing political process. Without our assistance, Tripoli might have fallen to the Haftar’s group, leading to a major humanitarian disaster. Our ongoing humanitarian assistance to Libya includes running a hospital, as well as clearing mines an the IEDs. We hope that the establishment of a new constitution and election in December will be achieved successfully, so we continue to stand by with the Libyan Government.

Now, Afghanistan, with a few words. Allies, individually and collectively, have invested a great deal for peace and stability in Afghanistan. Turkey, for example, provided development, aid, worth more than $1.1 billion, to Afghanistan since 2004, carried out nearly 1,300 projects in all 34 provinces, focusing mostly on health, education and the infrastructure, built more than 100 schools. Given the status of their peace talks, as well as their increased violence level, the conditions continue to be unfavourable for a withdrawal. We believe there is still much more to do in Afghanistan and a hasty withdrawal would risk the gains made over the years. Turkey has been a part of NATO’s missions in Afghanistan since the very beginning of – in 2001 and intends to stay in Afghanistan as long as the Afghans want us to do so.

One key issue is the handover of the airport, which are the only safe and secure way to go in and out of the country. For this reason, we believe NATO should continue to provide essential services to main airfields. The handover, takeover process of airfields need to be reassessed. Turkey is ready to play its part, including by offering any support to a peace process requested by all Afghans. On 16th April, Turkey will host a Senior Leaders’ Meeting. Building on our cultural and historical ties, we will continue to support our Afghan friends.

Now, another important point, despite the differences on some issues, we have, historically, strong, comprehensive and strategic bonds with the United States of America, based on common values and interests. Ever since the Korean War, from Afghanistan and Somalia, to Kosovo and the – from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic, Turkey and the United States have worked together and have contributed to the regional and the global peace and stability, and we still continue to do so in difficult parts of the world, shoulder-to-shoulder. We are strategic partners, we are two NATO allies, which shared values, interests and commitments. Although we have had ups and downs in our relations, that’s true, and occasionally sharp differences of opinion, let’s not forget that we have overcome many challenges in the past. It is no secret that there are certain issues that have cast a shadow on the Turkish-American partnership. However, we are fully confident that our countries will eventually move towards a more positive force, as we have done so many times in the past.

Regarding the S-400 issue, in particular, we have no hidden agenda in this issue. Our offer regarding the establishment of a Working Group, with the participation of NATO when needed, to solve technical problems, is still on the table. To this end, keeping dialogue channels open at every level is of the utmost importance to work on these challenges. We also have a positive agenda to work on. We are ready to continue to play our part together with the US, including in the fight against Daesh. Similarly, as we continue to contribute to regional and global peace and stability in Europe, the Middle East, the Caucasus and in North Africa, sometimes, perceptions can overshadow reality itself. As they say, “Geography is destiny.” In our case, this region’s destiny depends on Turkey. We say that Turkey is the destiny of its particular region. I believe the United States should recognise this and prioritise Turkey as her main regional partner in dealing with global issues.

To sum up, as Turkey, we will continue to fill – to fulfil our – all our responsibilities and contribute to peace and security in our region and the world. Our solid commitment to NATO will continue and we will continue to shoulder our fair share of the burden. Despite the challenges on multiple fronts, including the ongoing pandemic, Turkey will continue to contribute to the alliance with highly capable and combat driven forces. In doing so, we wish to work with our allies and friends, among whom the United Kingdom ranks prominently. Turkey, complementing its efforts in the diplomacy, defence and security areas, ranks among the top contributors, globally, in terms of development and the humanitarian assistance. The international community should adopt the same principle and decisive stance against all terrorist organisations. In resolving disputes, we always prefer diplomacy, peaceful solutions and dialogue. All that we ask from our friends and allies is that they look at the issues fairly, objectively, impartially, with intellectual honesty, and without any prejudice and preconceived notions.

Robin, in conclusion, I would like to, once again, thank Chatham House for organising this meeting and the audience for their patience and their valuable time, thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity to give us to expression our thoughts and then, to share only with you. Thank you.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Thank you very much, Minister Akar. Thank you for a very comprehensive rundown and a reminder, as I said, at the beginning, of how many issues are on the Turkish security agenda, which then connects through to the region, to other European neighbours and all the way to the United States, as well. We’ve already got a number of good questions. Let me encourage people to continue adding questions. We’ll turn to as many as we can. We have ‘til quarter past the hour, quarter past six in the UK, to be able to take them. I’m going to jump straight in. I had a few questions of my own, but I think the best thing is for me to blend them with the questions I have from – coming in from our members and others.

And I just wanted to go straight to the issue of the Eastern Mediterranean, which you raised as one of your key points and we understand, obviously, members of Chatham House, a lot of this is connected to the discovery, the major discovery of gas fields, in particular, in the Eastern Mediterranean five/six years ago and the capacity to exploit them that we see today. In particular with Egypt now playing a very important role as a potential exporter of liquified natural gas, LNG. So, my question to you, which comes also from Mohamed Abdel Fattah, asked me to ask this question on his behalf. “How central are Turkey’s relations with Egypt in coming up with a solution?” Because it looks to us as if Egypt is central, given how important it is to the export of the gas for Israel, and for Cyprus, that an improvement of a relationship between Egypt and Turkey will be critically important to de-escalating some of the drama here. And certainly, since the Biden administration has come into power, it looks like perhaps, and Mohamed mentions this, “there is a slight improvement of relations between Turkey and Egypt taking place.” Could you let us know how important Egypt is for the solution to the tense relationship over territorial claims in this part of the world, and maritime claims, in particular? Over to you, Minister.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Oh, yeah, the – our relation, our international relation are the – almost in the – all of them are the important – all are, you know, the neighbouring countries. And their Politicians, from the very beginning, we are trying to do our best with all of them, without, you know, the making of any difference. So, the – of course, you know, the Egypt, you know, the one of the – are very important, you know, the neighbouring countries, we’ve had, you know, the – some difficulties in the past with – in our relations, but as you mentioned, you know, the – now, everything will be much, much better, in an upcoming yeah and the period of time. And the – at every level, you know, the people, you know, they are trying to do the El Shaddai, to put, you know, our – you know, relation in the right course with the Egypt. Of course, you know, and it will be very important, not only for Turkey and the Egypt, but also, it will be very important for the whole region, for the – and the peace and stability. But in this, you know, we have you on the every – you know, the, also, the thoughts and then, if we are, you know, being very positive in our relations with, you know, the Egypt, then, from the – every, you know, the opportunity, we are taking the – our privilege to have the communication.

So, the – I believe that within the upcoming period of time, there are going to be some initiative for parties and then, it will bring the good, you know, the peaceful, you know, and the environment for everybody. And then, the important issue that we have had – we don’t have, you know, any of the, I would say, the adverse, you know, the thoughts against the Egypt. So, the – it will be very important, you know, the relation and it will be – they put you on the atmosphere so, you know, the East of the Mediterranean and the economically, politically, militarily and then the – within the Secretary, as well, it will be beneficial for all of us.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Thank you. A related question from Dimitris Eudemidis, talks about the deal that Turkey has done with Libya on its Maritime Boundary Treaty. And, obviously, Libya is critical for the maritime disputes that have taken place across the Mediterranean. His question is, “The deal that Turkey has struck with Libya seems to exclude the legitimate claims of all other neighbouring countries in the Eastern Mediterranean: Cyprus, Egypt,” who I mentioned,” and Greece. So, does Turkey consider that your exclusive economic zone should reach all the way to Libya’s?” Because, if it does, that would exclude Crete, Cyprus, in particular, they would have no EEZ, if you see what I’m saying, it would disappear.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Yeah.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

So, what’s Greece’s position on the – sorry, what is Turkey’s position on this?

Dr Hulusi Akar

Turkey’s position is very clear, very clear. ‘Cause, you know, the – that, you know, the MoU, you know the – signed by, you know, the two, you know, the government, both of them, you know, they are recognised by the United Nation. We did, you know, the adaption of the MoU with, you know, the GNA. GNA, the government, the Unite – recognised by United Nation. So, the – this is, you know, the – very, you know, the – open, very, you know, the – clear, to – between an international – via MoU, between two countries, unless it is, you know, the – it is right, it is the right thing. But maybe the – it is not, you know, the appropriate for yourself and with, yeah Greece. So, the – they are even the neighbours, always they are asking, you know, that everything should be imbedded on the either side. This is not the world, you know, the everything will be, like, will be parallel with your understanding, with your, you know, the needs, with your, you know, the other side, yeah, interest. So, the – we had – we should accept this internationally on the, I would say, agreed and then the good – you know, the recognised MoU. This MoU already, you know, be recognised by the – registered in the United Nation, so that we have the, you know, they have the respect, you know, the opportunity countries, what they are doing. It may be not, you know, the – whatever you like, but you know, the – it is, you know, the international law, international, the environment, correct – you know, the – and the action. So, the – we are, you know, they are very comfortable on this issue. Decisions be very open, is very clear. There is nothing, you know, they absolutely are doing wrong from, you know, the international point of view.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

As I’ve said, there may be nothing wrong from the international point of view, but it does create, therefore, an impossible situation, potentially, for those countries that are stuck between it. So, I’m just wondering, obviously, Turkey, as I understand it, is not a signatory to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. How do you, kind of, manage, let’s call it, therefore, the legal constructs in which you’re trying to develop in the Eastern Mediterranean?

Dr Hulusi Akar

Yeah, we proposed the international, the conference. As you know, the – from the very beginning, you know, they keep on saying similar things for, you know, the Eastern Mediterranean. The – we are, you know, open to discuss these issues with our – you know, the neighbours, but you know, the – we are requesting our neighbours, at the same time, you know, the – to have, you know, their respect the rights of Turkey, as well. As I said to you only before, you know, the – we have, you know, the 2,000km, you know, the coastline, you know, the – to the Mediterranean, so the – we are asking the, our – you know, the neighbours, to be respectful and therefore, the rights of the Turkey toward one country.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

It sounds to me like we’re going to have to have a complicated – there will be a very complex and multinational negotiation.

Dr Hulusi Akar

This is the reason, you know, why we couldn’t get the results so far, for them to come back…

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Well, I…

Dr Hulusi Akar

…to the – yeah.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

I was going to say, what’s interesting, obviously, you mentioned the, you know, EU earlier on. Let me just ask you one quick question, ‘cause I don’t see it in the question list, but you’ve been talking quite a bit to your UK counterparts. One of the interesting commitments in the UK Government’s Integrated Review on Defence, Diplomacy and Development is trying to build up a closer NATO-EU partnership, which, as we know, is also quite a high priority on the Biden administration. This has always been an area in which Turkey has, as I understand it, resisted excessively close relationships, or breaking down some of the barriers that exist between NATO and the EU. Do you see, and you have a lot of experience in the NATO yourself, do you see an opportunity here as part of, let’s call it, a sort of, confidence building step, an opportunity to improve relations between NATO and the EU, maybe as a way forward to try to improve the context for the Eastern Mediterranean, as well? Could you say something about the NATO-EU relationship from the Turkish perspective?

Dr Hulusi Akar

We are on the – we have, you know, the – every respect on the – for the rights of the whole organisation. Of course, you know, the rights of, you know, the European Union and the rights of, you know, the NATO countries. So, the – while we are, you know, they are connecting all the – co-operating, what, you know, the organisations, we like, you know, the – to have, you know, the – to respect the rights of the countries individually and then the rights of, you know, the, also, the other, you know, the organisation. So, that from the very beginning, you know, we are discussing this issue and the – and in this issue, there, we are very clear, very openly, you know, the idea mention, but we are thinking of the – on the movements, on the, you know, the – will the precautions, what will they will?

And then the EU at the same time, you know, the – we are, you know, in NATO, we are, you know, the member of the NATO, as Turkey, and we are always question the EU, they should respect, you know, the non-EU or the NATO members’ rights, as well. And then, the – after that, you know, the – why shouldn’t they do this? And then they – we are only talking with them, yeah, you know, we will discuss with them on the – everything that they do this way will be resolved. And this you want to remember, they are [inaudible – 46:51] strategic what is the full membership of EU, so that we are not, you know, the enemy of the EU. Then the opening, you know, the – for the NATO-EU relation, as well. But it should be under the, you know, the agreed documents. And then, as I’ve said before, you know, be respectful of the nations’ rights, as well.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

I mean, there’s a related question, one more on NATO and EU and then I’m going to move off. A related question from – let’s just move up my screen, there it is. It’s a long one from Duane Kirkwood, who asks specifically whether you think “NATO could be reformed to better deal with disputes between the member states, going forward.” There’s quite a bit of interesting context that Duane provides to this question, but that’s the essence of it. Do you think NATO can be reformed? Are there ways that it could be reformed to better deal with the disputes that you have there, it’s not just with Greece, but maybe with France, as well, and some others? Any ideas for NATO reform?

Dr Hulusi Akar

[General chatter] Yes, of course. Yes, of course, you know, the – we are very much a value of the anthropy. Anthropy is, you know, the – is going to be a sickness of every in the organisation. During the – through the, you know, the years, through, you know, the decades, within, you know, the organisation, even if you’re already on the response of, you know, the other duties, well enough. Anyway, you know, the – because of the anthropy, there is likely to be some of the – also a bit differences, some sort of problem.

So, the – regarding all I’ve told you and the experiences, we will, you know, the check – doing the assess on the situation, and then, depending what the needs of, you know, the, obviously, organisation, you will take with us some, you know, the measures, some, you know, the precautions. But while we are doing on this, you know, they never, ever – you know, that we have to work at the essential, fundamental, you know, on the issues and then the – as long as, you know, they are respecting the fundamental issues, you can make, you know, some necessary changes, depending on their conditions, depending on the situation. Within this business, that they – also the – we are, you know, the – as Turkey, working on – and then the – we are, you know, the – putting our view on the assessment, putting our view on the [inaudible – 49:04] thoughts. We are sharing the – with the NATO authorities, military and the civilians.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Thank you. Let me bring in Madeleine Moon, and I’d like to get one of our guests to ask a question unmuted, if we could. Madeleine, I see you there, at least I see you on my screen. If you could unmute yourself or will be unmuted. We return to Russia now. Madeleine, over to you.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Yeah.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Yeah, we can hear you. If you speak, we should be able to hear you, hopefully.

Madeleine Moon

Okay. Can I just commend Turkey for its work on the refugee crisis. I visited Turkish refugee camps and I can testify to the high quality of the provision. One of the things I’m very conscious of is the critical role that Turkey plays in the Black Sea and in dealing with the build-up of tension with Russia, particularly around Eastern Ukraine and the Eastern Ukrainian border. What role do you see Turkey in having in helping to resolve those tensions and the build-up of tensions and anxiety in that region? Thank you.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Over to you, Minister.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Okay, the – yes, the – wherever, they are – all of us, you know, we’re very much aware of the what’s going on, you know, in Iraq and the Black Sea. There’s usually an import, you know, the area, you know, and the – both, you know, the sides, you know, the NATO and the Russian and the, also, the issues and then the actions. Very important for the safety of both sides. And then, within this, you know, the – we are very clearly, very clearly, describe the current, the status of the Black Sea and that we supported that, you know, on the statico and then they – explains, you know, on the – with the littoral states. We are not only talking, we are discussing and then without, you know on the – obviously causing the – any escalation, without causing the – any of the violation of the rights of the both sides. And then, through that way, on the – we are making the – every possible on the contribution for the peaceful period of the time, for the stabilisation of the issues in the area. So, the – for this, you know, without, you know, the hurting anybody, without, you know, the causing any violation, without, you know, the provocation. But, you know, they just, you know, they are keeping our rights and they’re supporting our rights and then, of course, you know, and the number one, you know, the NATO issues, number two, you know, the littoral states’ issues, so the – we are in communication with all of them and then, at the same time, we have, you know, some dialogue with Russia, and the – from time-to-time, you know, we are communicating with them, and that each time we are working for the peace, we are working the stability and then we are asking them, we are requesting them to the – how to say, to be – and to go to the – with the current, you know, the statico of the – and the – of course, you know, the – there’s the Montreux Convention is very important, so that we are asking, we are requesting the every – you know, the parties, to respect, you know, the – that Convention.

The problems need to be solved, you know, the – of course, with dialogue and peacefully, always, whatever it is, no matter what it is. In every occasion, the – we have to apply the dialogue and then support the territorial integrity of our neighbours, it’s another important, you know, the issue. So, the – in every sense, in every, you know, the platform, we are keeping saying the same things again and again and then if we are, as Turkey, always only supported – I mean, supporting all peaceful initiatives, then we will continue in this way.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

One more question that’s, sort of, connected into this space, a question from Mike Birch, and obviously this is quite topical. “How will the new Istanbul Canal affect the conditions of the Treaty of Montreux?” Obviously, as Defence Minister, I’m sure you’ve been very involved with this topic, in recent days. So, could you just share, for the audience here, the Turkish Government’s perspective towards the Treaty of Montreux, with the proposed building of the Canal Istanbul?

Dr Hulusi Akar

Number one, this is a domestic issue, and the, you know, the – Turkey is a sovereign country and they’ve even started doing the whatever it will do. So, we decided the Tur – you know, the Canal [inaudible – 53:29] and then they all argue on the expertise in Turkey, of course, in the – why have we taken this decision? We, you know, they had to do the consultation with all the other expertise and all our expertise saying that, you know, the – “Never, ever, anybody have said it, adverse effect that we have the ongoing issues.”

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Very clear. Thank you for that comment. I wanted to turn to the big question about the – you raised about the S-400s, which is obviously, for – I think most of our members will know what we’re talking about here, but it is a modern ground-to-air defence system, which the Turkish Government has purchased off Russia, and which has caused quite a confrontation with other NATO allies, especially in the United States. I see that the Biden administration, I think I’m right in saying this, has gone ahead with some sanctions against Turkish officials on the deployment of the S-400 and, obviously, I’m wondering if you could explain how the Turkish Government is going to be able to reassure the Biden administration and other NATO allies that the purchase of the S-400 is not going to undermine NATO security and, also, obviously, the relationship, therefore, with the Biden administration and NATO as a whole. Could you tell us what solution you see emerging to this intractable problem?

Dr Hulusi Akar

Robin, number one, you know the – are you on the procurements, the purchasing the S-4oo, never, ever undermines, you know, the NATO’s, NATO’s Secretary or the NATO, you know, the structure, number one. Number two, you know, the – from the very beginning, you know, the – we are dealing with this issue and then the – since you know, the 1990s, they are trying the – to have, you know, the some – you know, the equipment, some of the equipment to protect everybody in my country and then my people against, you know, the long range missile and air defence system. So, the – we try to, you know, the – to procure this, you know, in the – first in the front states and then, after that, you have the from the European countries, but unfortunately, we couldn’t do that. And then necessarily to protect our – you know, the people, to protect our – you know, their country, against the missiles and the aircraft be – thought this, you know, their system. And then their – while we are buying the system, never, ever we have a hidden agenda. Everything, you know, the – happened very transparently in the eyes of the – all people and they are dis – and then they used to understand and then the – we should know that you – this is, you know, the necessity, not a choice.

So, they are – now, after this, you know, the – at this point, you know, the – we are holding talks with our, you know, the counterparts in every, you know, the opportunity, let’s talk about this issue, Turkey and the United States, when neither – you know, the – also, the – some, you know, the members of, you know, the NATO can getting into parts when – in this issue to discuss, you know, the – in the – every detail, in every, you know, the how to say, possibility and then to avoid this any other harm. Personally, we are telling the – our, you know, the France, “We will use this in the standalone.” And then remember, you know, in the Baltic area, there are, you know, these S-400s and the class order, you have the – there are, you know, there’s some after the flight. And similarly, on the – in Syria, at the moment, there’s, you know, the Russian S-400 and at the same time, Israel, after the flight, flying over there. So, the – similarly, they can fight, you know, technically, or the in practice maybe with some – you know, the, I would say solutions. And the – our aim, our aim, just one aim, you know, within this issue, just to protect 84 million people, that’s it, and they will use this, you know, as I’ve said to you, this standalone and then the – did a Working Group, Turkey and United States, or Turkey and the United States, plus, you know, NATO, we are open to discuss and then we are putting everything on the table.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Thank you, Minister. I know you’re very tight on time. I think you’re flying back to Turkey very shortly. Could I squeeze one last question in, ‘cause it’s a topic we’ve not touched on, and you can be as short with it as you want in your answer? Simon Anglim asks the question about, “What next for Nagorno-Karabakh? What is the Turkish Government’s objective or its plans alongside its Azeri allies on Nagorno-Karabakh?

Dr Hulusi Akar

Yeah, Robin, more than the Turkish, you know, the intention is really a sovereign state of the Azerbaijan. The Azerbaijan, you know, the territories, keep passing the ball, Armenia for, you know, the 30 years, 30 years, and within those, you know, the 30 years, United Nations and the OECD and then the Minsk Group did nothing. They didn’t – they pick, you know – they didn’t, you know – they do the – even though the 30, you know, centimetres, you know, contribution to the rescue opportunity of those in the territories of Azerbaijan.

Now, Azerbaijan you are doing rescue to their territories and the front occupation and then, now, you know, the – we are, you know, the over there, with the Russian and the Turkish troops, the – for, you know, the military – on the ceasefire. So far, you know, that’s going well and then the – after this, you know, on the Azerbaijan, we’ll do its own work by itself. But, you know, the – always, day and night, when they – always, when they – we are, together with, you know, the – our Azerbaijani brothers, within there, doing the right, you know, the – obviously a process. And then the – within the joint operations centre, I believe that, you know, the Russians, we will provide, you know, the ceasefire and then, after that period, we will – and we are doing the everything for the normalisation of the life. The rest of them, you know, the – under the command of – under the control of the sovereign – you know, the – instead of the Azerbaijan, will do their business.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

And thank you, and we’ve only scratched the surface, obviously, of this multitude of very complex topics that you’re dealing with and that involve Turkey. But I want to thank you very much, Minister, for giving us a lot of your time to be able to address a whole series of questions. Many thanks to our members, who posed, I thought, some good and detailed questions, as one would expect from Chatham House members. I want to thank Ambassador Ümit Yalçin for helping us organise the meeting today with you, Minister, and as I always do, as Turkey is an area of great interest for Chatham House, and we’ve been running a Turkey Project now for over ten years, currently with the support of Koç Holding and Ali Koç I want to say a big thank you to them and others for all their support of our work. Thank you very much, Minister. This will be a subject we will be returning to Chatham House next week, for our members, but for the moment, safe flight back, and thank you for joining us, and I look forward to keeping up the conversation.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Robin, thank you. Thank you and then your staff and all, you know, the audience. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening. Bye, bye.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Thank you, Minister, safe flight. Bye, bye.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Thank you.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Thank you, everyone for joining us.

Dr Hulusi Akar

Thank you, bye, bye.

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Have a good weekend. Bye, bye.

Dr Hulusi Akar

You, too.