Bronwen Maddox
Good evening, I’m Bronwen Maddox, Director of Chatham House. Thank you all for your time and coming this evening. Thank you to Isaac Herzog, President of Israel, for coming during his trip to the UK. For the avoidance of any doubt, this discussion is on the record, and it’s livestreamed.
A very brief biography. Isaac Herzog held ministerial positions in Ehud Olmert’s Government between 2006–2011. He’s been Chairman of the Labour Party, stood as its candidate for Prime Minister in 2015. He’s been President of Israel since 2021, so has three more years to go. It’s a role elected by the Knesset, it has no executive powers, but that person is Head of State and has the obligation to sign most laws and the right to receive reports of government discussions.
And his tenure as President has therefore included the October 7th 2023 attack, in which Hamas and others killed 1,200 Israelis and took about 250 hostage, an attack which horrified many people and countries around the world. Around 20 of those hostages are believed to be still alive in captivity. His tenure as President has included, too, what has followed October the 7th. Some 60,000 Palestinians killed in Gaza as a result of Israeli military action, many of them apparently children, the UN-backed IPC saying last month it has confirmed famine and starvation in Gaza. Almost daily settler violence on the West Bank, with more settlements licensed by Israel’s Government, and last night, Israel’s strikes against Qatar in pursuit of Hamas leaders, criticised by many countries, including the US and UK. Qatar becomes the seventh country to be struck by Israel in the past year or so, along with Lebanon, Syria, Palestinian territories, Iran, Yemen, and Tunisia, including the aid flotilla. Just in the past few hours Israel has conducted more strikes on the Yemeni capital.
Many of these actions have, in turn, brought international condemnation and huge public protests. The UK, along with France, Belgium and Canada, is likely, within weeks, to recognise a Palestinian state. European Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, used her State of the Union speech today to announce the European Commission will sanction extremist Ministers and violent settlers and pause bilateral payments. President Herzog, we have a lot to talk about, even more than it seemed…
Isaac Herzog
Yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
…24 hours ago.
Isaac Herzog
Although I don’t necessarily agree with the way you describe the picture.
Bronwen Maddox
We can come onto that; this is a discussion. I wanted, though, to start with Qatar as the most recent. Israel struck Qatar, hoping to kill the Hamas leaders, but they’re there with US knowledge and endorsement and are the negotiators for a potential ceasefire. So, should we conclude that Israel does not want such a ceasefire?
Isaac Herzog
What Israel wants most is to bring back the hostages, and the key to changing the entire vista of the region and the future of the region and getting out of this horrific situation which we’ve endured for the last two years is getting the hostages back home. Today, two hostages, these are Gali and Ziv Berman, two brothers, 28-year-old, they’re from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, they – this is a picture of them touring Britain. And they are wonderful, wonderful brothers who have been abducted and kidnapped, and their fate is unclear since October 7th.
Bronwen Maddox
So, many…
Isaac Herzog
There are other hostages.
Bronwen Maddox
…countries, President Herzog, have called for the release of the hostages…
Isaac Herzog
Yeah, I can just…
Bronwen Maddox
…for Hamas to return them, but the hostage families seem dismayed by this attack on Qatar, saying that Israel is “destroying the negotiations that might have brought a ceasefire.”
Isaac Herzog
So, let’s speak about the negotiations to bring back the hostages. Israel has atte – accepted every proposal in – almost for the last year or so, every proposal that was laid down by the mediators. Israel has accepted the whole notion that was led by the United States, including with other parties, meaning the Qataris and the Egyptians. And then we were faced, time and time again, with either a refusal or endless procrastination by Hamas. For example, in the last few months – you’re probably going to ask me also about the humanitarian situation, because the…
Bronwen Maddox
As it happens…
Isaac Herzog
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Bronwen Maddox
…happens I am, but…
Isaac Herzog
But I have to answer. Because of the Hamas’s feeling that they had the upper hand publicly in their image wall, they decided not to move on any proposal. Now, I could attest to the fact, because I am exposed to intelligence all the time, that Khalil al-Hayya, whose hands are spilled with the blood of thousands of Israelis on October 7th, who is the head of Hamas sitting in Qatar, he kept…
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah.
Isaac Herzog
…on refusing and/or saying yes with a poison pill, that looks like a slime, endless slime, that doesn’t end. We want a deal, and we want to finish the war, and we say we are ready to exit the war with a full hostage deal and a ceasefire…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
…but for that, you need Hamas to say yes. And…
Bronwen Maddox
Okay, so…
Isaac Herzog
…and wait, wait, Bronwen…
Bronwen Maddox
No, no…
Isaac Herzog
…because part of problem…
Bronwen Maddox
…I want to come onto some of the points that you’re raising.
Isaac Herzog
Yeah, but you have to understand, if you want me to explain the situation for a change, because in England, I understand that there is a very strong one streak of thought, but I’m trying to present a different streak to a very decent nation that should listen to that streak. For example, Hamas has – its decision-making process requires consent. All you need is one person to say no and there’s no deal, and if you want to move on, you have to remove some of the people if they are not willing to get to a deal, because that impacts…
Bronwen Maddox
President Herzog…
Isaac Herzog
…the entire – well, it…
Bronwen Maddox
…we’re here primarily to talk about Israel and its aims and its motives in this. You say, though, you are exposed to all kinds of intelligence briefing. Did you know about the Qatar strikes?
Isaac Herzog
No, I did not, no. I was in the plane to England.
Bronwen Maddox
So, let’s bring ourselves to England. You’ve just come from Downing Street. The UK has said, which Israel does not want, the UK has said that it will recognise a Palestinian state within a few weeks from now at the UN General Assembly, unless Israel makes progress towards a ceasefire, resolves the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and commits to a peace process leading to a Palestinian state. Is Israel going to do those things?
Isaac Herzog
So, we had a very frank and open discussion, me and Prime Minister Starmer, at 10 Downing. It was a meeting between allies, but it was a tough meeting. It was a meeting that was, you know – I mean, things were said that were tough and strong, and clearly, we can argue, because when allies meet, they can argue. We are both democracies, we both understand the threat from the jihadists. Prime Minister reiterated, and of course, I couldn’t agree more, that Hamas is a terror organisation that must be removed.
Bronwen Maddox
But we’re doing…
Isaac Herzog
But we discussed it at length, including the fact that we believe that a unilateral resolution regarding a Palestinian state will be adverse and negatively affect any future process, because it will be dangerous, it won’t help one Palestinian, one hostage, and can be adversely interpreted by Hamas.
Bronwen Maddox
Come onto that, because this is more than an argument with the UK, isn’t it? One of your allies, absolutely, is sanctioning Ministers, is withdrawing arms licenses, its Ministers of the UK Government getting up to condemn what Israel is doing. Are you concerned that Israel is becoming a pariah state?
Isaac Herzog
So, we argue vehemently with the British Government and with other governments. I will say, of course, that Israel is a very open-minded democracy. We will go to elections, the latest next October. Our nation debates on every issue that you can imagine. We have demonstrators all over the country all the time. That’s what democracies does, it is the legitimate right of our government, the way it was formed, to pursue its own ideology. Not necessarily one has to agree with it, but one has to understand that if you sanction Israeli elected official in a free, open society and democracy, that were fully approved also by our legal system, you’re actually hurting Israeli democracy, and it’s not the right thing to do.
It looks like a simple excuse, you know, the way it’s perceived. It’s perceived as if, if you don’t agree with British opinion, with the government of Britain, then we will punish you with the declaration of a Palestinian state. Will that bring peace? No, unfortunately…
Bronwen Maddox
So, these…
Isaac Herzog
…no, and may I say, I truly believe in the fact that we should reach peace with the Palestinians. I’ve said it all my life, I believe in it still now. I believe that the regional developments are so vital that they can also bring with them the development with the Palestinians, but for that, you need to bring the hostages back home and you need…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
…to create a different future for Gaza without Hamas.
Bronwen Maddox
We will come on, indeed, to those points about the future, which I hope are more hopeful. But this isn’t just the UK, this is Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway, others have joined. In June, they put out a statement about these two Israeli Ministers, Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, saying they have ‘incited extremist violence, serious abuses of Palestinian human rights.’ This is appalling and dangerous. These actions are not…
Isaac Herzog
But that’s…
Bronwen Maddox
…acceptable.”
Isaac Herzog
…the big mistake of all of these countries, they are making a huge mistake about who’s their friend, who’s their ally…
Bronwen Maddox
All of these…
Isaac Herzog
…who’s their enemy.
Bronwen Maddox
All of these countries…
Isaac Herzog
We are…
Bronwen Maddox
…are wrong?
Isaac Herzog
…fighting here to defend the free world. Israel is there at the frontier of fighting jihadist civilisational aspiration.
Bronwen Maddox
But your friends and allies…
Isaac Herzog
We are defending Europe.
Bronwen Maddox
…are calling on you to stop.
Isaac Herzog
Well, we are defending Europe, we are defending Western values and the free world with the blood and the tears of our sons and daughters and families. That’s what we’re doing, we’re fighting an aggressive, barbaric enemy that has butchered, slaughtered, burnt, raped our citizens and say that ‘We want Israel out.’ We have not attacked seven countries. We were attacked from seven corners of the earth by ballistic missiles, by the most advanced weapons supplied by Iran to the proxies who want to…
Bronwen Maddox
Well, what…
Isaac Herzog
…eradicate us.
Bronwen Maddox
I’m going to bring us onto, though…
Isaac Herzog
And we have the full right to defend ourselves.
Bronwen Maddox
But – and the countries I’ve mentioned, and many others, have never contested, indeed, have supported…
Isaac Herzog
So, they have to understand that…
Bronwen Maddox
…Israel’s right…
Isaac Herzog
How do…?
Bronwen Maddox
…to defend itself…
Isaac Herzog
But how do they want…
Bronwen Maddox
…but not…
Isaac Herzog
…us to do it?
Bronwen Maddox
In a different way.
Isaac Herzog
How do they want us to do it?
Bronwen Maddox
So, they are asking you to stop. Your friends and allies are calling on you to stop. Is it not time to stop?
Isaac Herzog
We said we are willing to stop. Prime Minister Netanyahu, the government, agreed, laid out a five-point plan, saying, “We want to stop, and there will be a day after.” And I sincerely hope that the efforts of Jared Kushner and Tony Blair and others, under the auspices of President Trump, will bring forward the day after. But for the day after, let’s be pragmatic about it, everybody says, “The day after without Hamas.” Who exactly will take Hamas out?
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
Who will send his daughters and sons to fight Hamas to get Hamas out? One has to be – to understand that we are the ones who are doing the work. Just like Chancellor Mertz said about Iran, he said, “Israel is doing the dirty work for the West.”
Bronwen Maddox
We are not, unfortunately, on the day after, not in reality…
Isaac Herzog
We want to be.
Bronwen Maddox
…and not in this conversation yet. We are on the day that we are now. And I want to ask you about two points of Israel’s response. As I said, many, many countries, not contesting in any way Israel’s right and need to defend itself and to respond to October 7th, but one of these aspects which has the crowds on the streets here is famine. And indeed, David Lammy, as Foreign Secretary, said just some weeks ago, the confirmation of famine in Gaza City by the UN-backed IPC and the surrounding neighbourhood is “utterly horrifying, wholly preventable. The Israeli government’s refusal to allow sufficient aid into Gaza has caused this man-made catastrophe. This is a moral outrage.” This is part of where the British Government’s standing – stance on this and the outrage of the crowds outside is coming from.
Isaac Herzog
So, we’re not shying away from the shortage of food and because of that, there was an overhaul of the supply of humanitarian aid to Gaza. In the last six to eight weeks, there is a major overhaul, major change, and we reject the notion that there’s now any famine. On the contrary, huge amount of produce is going in in huge amount of trucks, tons and tons and tons of food, airdrops, water supplies, electricity, medical supplies, free market supplies, and so forth and so on. There’s a major reduction…
Bronwen Maddox
But many…
Isaac Herzog
…in the cost of food. There’s a major reduction in the cost of food, and the supply of food has gone all over Gaza. It’s not simple life, and believe me, I’m saying it out of my own heart and my own conscience, because the last thing we want is people to suffer. And we care, and I care, for the people of Gaza, but let’s be honest about it, when there was food supplied, Hamas took it over, okay, profiteering by reselling it, bla – money laundering…
Bronwen Maddox
President…
Isaac Herzog
…and we wanted…
Bronwen Maddox
…Herzog.
Isaac Herzog
…to…
Bronwen Maddox
No, President Herzog…
Isaac Herzog
We wanted to take charge.
Bronwen Maddox
…I must stop you there.
Isaac Herzog
We wanted to take charge.
Bronwen Maddox
I must stop you there, because…
Isaac Herzog
Why?
Bronwen Maddox
…it is something that Israeli Ministers say quite a bit. I have found, and many have found, no credible evidence for that, and indeed, Jack Lew…
Isaac Herzog
Absolutely.
Bronwen Maddox
…who is former US Ambassador…
Isaac Herzog
It’s – no…
Bronwen Maddox
…in Jerusalem…
Isaac Herzog
…look at the numbers.
Bronwen Maddox
…recently wrote that he never saw evidence of systematic…
Isaac Herzog
That is a total lie.
Bronwen Maddox
…diversion by Hamas, and that…
Isaac Herzog
Total lie.
Bronwen Maddox
So, the former…
Isaac Herzog
They take the…
Bronwen Maddox
…US ambassador is lying?
Isaac Herzog
…food and then they sell it triple price, not only double price. They launder the money and use it for their war machine. The fact is that once we flooded and opened all the gates into Gaza, including, by the way, the last 24 hours, 600 trucks have gone into Gaza, for example, and airdrops, and huge amount of food has gone in…
Bronwen Maddox
But then…
Isaac Herzog
…the prices have gone down sharply and dramatically. That means it’s not in the control of somebody who’s blackmailing…
Bronwen Maddox
Okay.
Isaac Herzog
…the market.
Bronwen Maddox
But the question is also, what happens to that when it gets inside? I’m not talking about…
Isaac Herzog
It gets distributed.
Bronwen Maddox
…where Hamas – many…
Isaac Herzog
Mass dist…
Bronwen Maddox
…agencies have said they’re blocked from distributing it.
Isaac Herzog
So, I must say that we are – I’m – myself, I’m studying it. I met with many organisation, including the World Central Kitchen, and others. We met recently with the World Food Kitchen – World Food Program, and others, to make sure that pro – the procurement and the supply and distribution will be much…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
…more efficient. Part of it has to do, also, with the UN failure to take hundreds of trucks and distribute them forward into Gaza.
Bronwen Maddox
They say at…
Isaac Herzog
The issue is to blame…
Bronwen Maddox
…at length that they are systematically blocked…
Isaac Herzog
The issue – no.
Bronwen Maddox
…by this.
Isaac Herzog
The problem is that it’s very easy just to put the blame here on Israel.
Bronwen Maddox
Well, Israel is…
Isaac Herzog
People have to…
Bronwen Maddox
…in control.
Isaac Herzog
No, people have to go into Gaza and understand the situation in and of itself. The place is full of booby traps. Every building is booby trapped and prepared with cameras so that they…
Bronwen Maddox
Okay, but…
Isaac Herzog
…control it from underneath, so that they can fire at anybody getting close. This is a very dangerous terrain. We – that’s what we are fighting against. We want to get…
Bronwen Maddox
But you have…
Isaac Herzog
…the Hamas war machine out and enable a better future for…
Bronwen Maddox
But you have many…
Isaac Herzog
…the people of Gaza.
Bronwen Maddox
…aid agencies calling for the return of the UN-led…
Isaac Herzog
So, now…
Bronwen Maddox
…system, saying, you know…
Isaac Herzog
There is, it’s all back.
Bronwen Maddox
…that they are blocked.
Isaac Herzog
The UN-led system is gone back substantially, dramatically and totally overall because of the lack of food that occurred two months ago, and that occurred because there was an effort for an alternative system to take the control of Hamas out and have direct supply to the families. It did not work out so well.
Bronwen Maddox
Let me ask you about a second aspect that has distressed people and given rise to these government condemnation, and that is the level of civilian casualties in Gaza. 60,000 or so people, several percent, then, of the population of Gaza. How do you justi…?
Isaac Herzog
It’s not 7%, it’s not…
Bronwen Maddox
I said several.
Isaac Herzog
And it’s not true.
Bronwen Maddox
How do you justify the scale of civilian casualty?
Isaac Herzog
Look, every one person aches and pains us, truly, but when – let’s just put the picture in clear perspective. We were attacked by a jihadist organisation who wants to eradicate us, and these fighters, they don’t care dying, because they are jihadists. In jihad, you believe that you die, you go to heaven and you served your purpose in killing Jews, and by the way, Christians, as well. And we’ve gone in order to prevent the attacks on our people and get the hostages back.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
And when we go in, the terrain is full of ammunition and missiles in living rooms and missiles in bedrooms, and missiles in shops and mosques and whatnot, and these missiles can be also be – long-range missiles, not only short-term missiles. Now, we have the full right under international law to defend ourselves, and what we are trying to do is to uproot those systems and enable a better future for Gaza. Any plan…
Bronwen Maddox
But…
Isaac Herzog
…for the day after requires at the end that Hamas will not be able to take over Gaza again.
Bronwen Maddox
So…
Isaac Herzog
That’s the issue here.
Bronwen Maddox
Let me say…
Isaac Herzog
And let’s be open about this.
Bronwen Maddox
International law absolutely gives you the right to defend yourself, but it doesn’t give you the right to cause unlimited suffering, and where people argue that Israel is breaching, clearly breaching the laws of war, is not differentiating between civilians and combatants, as obliged to do, using too much force beyond what is necessary, and…
Isaac Herzog
How can you…?
Bronwen Maddox
…having…
Isaac Herzog
Bronwen, how can you judge it? It’s – how can you judge it?
Bronwen Maddox
…having goals that are militarily…
Isaac Herzog
How – we still…
Bronwen Maddox
…achievable…
Isaac Herzog
…have our kids and ci…
Bronwen Maddox
…and using proportionate…
Isaac Herzog
We still have our…
Bronwen Maddox
…action.
Isaac Herzog
…citizens on the border over Gaza. Let’s just remember October 7th, because in October 7th, they slaughtered Muslims and Jews and many other religions and 36 nationalities, and they raped them and they burnt them and they hanged them and they abducted them, and they want to do the same and the same, and they say they want to do the same. Khalil Al-Hayya himself said, “I want to do the same and I celebrate that incredible day of October 7th.” So, we have the full right to defend ourselves in the way that this will not recur again. So, what do we do? We go in and say, “You want to stop, let’s stop, get out and bring our hostages back home,” but on the contrary, they torture our hostages. They don’t allow any ability to get them out, and because of that, we are going in, we’re going to a neighbourhood, it’s all booby trapped, and we…
Bronwen Maddox
President Herzog…
Isaac Herzog
Even if you send…
Bronwen Maddox
…you have several times…
Isaac Herzog
…a robot or a drone…
Bronwen Maddox
…described the reality of…
Isaac Herzog
If you…
Bronwen Maddox
…in Gaza.
Isaac Herzog
…send a dog, a sniffing dog…
Bronwen Maddox
But what…
Isaac Herzog
…to find out if it’s…
Bronwen Maddox
…I’m asking you…
Isaac Herzog
…booby trapped, the building itself explodes.
Bronwen Maddox
What I’m asking you…
Isaac Herzog
And you guys are unaware of it or don’t want to listen, that this is the war zone that we are dealing with, and if you don’t have that in England.
Bronwen Maddox
But it’s not about…
Isaac Herzog
But if it was in England, the whole British people would have gone as big, as strong as possible, just as they’ve done in past wars, and that’s the issue, because if Britain would have been attacked from seven corners…
Bronwen Maddox
Well, we’re not…
Isaac Herzog
…of the Earth, you would have gone big time into the war.
Bronwen Maddox
You’re talking beyond hypotheticals there. President Herzog, we’re talking about – and this is what is driving the international outrage…
Isaac Herzog
It’s also an…
Bronwen Maddox
…the repeating…
Isaac Herzog
It’s also an…
Bronwen Maddox
I have – will you…
Isaac Herzog
…outrage that…
Bronwen Maddox
…let me finish, please?
Isaac Herzog
…is supported by many elements in the digital arena, as well.
Bronwen Maddox
What we’re talking about is the repeated bombing of residential areas, of hospitals and of the…
Isaac Herzog
It’s not – so…
Bronwen Maddox
…scale of civilian…
Isaac Herzog
…certain hospitals in Gaza are fully functioning…
Bronwen Maddox
…casualty.
Isaac Herzog
…but if the hospital is a headquarter, is a headquarter of a terrorist machine operating and sending missiles on us, then we target only that specific place. Because under international law we do it – we target only at the specific place where they’re shooting from.
Bronwen Maddox
One of the laws of war is proportionality…
Isaac Herzog
That’s true.
Bronwen Maddox
…avoiding excessive civilian harm relative to military advantage. You haven’t got rid of all of Hamas and you have killed a lot of people in Gaza. How is that proportionate?
Isaac Herzog
Because we are – first of all, we argue with a lot of the data and we are willing, and I proposed to Prime Minister Starmer, also, for example, on the humanitarian aid, to send a fact-finding mission and le – and get all the data. And we have it all transparent and open, we supply it every day and we can show the difference between what is reported and what is happening on the ground. Same goes for warfare, we abide strictly by the rules of international law and how it relates to warfare.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
But the issue is, you have to judge the war according to the terrain of the war. The terrain of the war is…
Bronwen Maddox
No, that isn’t…
Isaac Herzog
Huge amount of…
Bronwen Maddox
…one of the interna – that isn’t part…
Isaac Herzog
Wait – huge amount – no.
Bronwen Maddox
…of the international laws of war.
Isaac Herzog
Huge of amount of tunnels that were built for decades, which was a major error for oversight, for not seeing it, whereby we’ve demolished about 30 to 40% of this huge infrastructure. Money that would have gone to help and aid the people of Gaza went to these tunnels, to this…
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah.
Isaac Herzog
…war machine, they are down under, and from down under, they send all their cameras to see upstairs what’s going on.
Bronwen Maddox
President Herzog…
Isaac Herzog
And we have to fight…
Bronwen Maddox
…again, you are…
Isaac Herzog
…an underground warfare.
Bronwen Maddox
…describing the circumstances…
Isaac Herzog
Because you have to understand…
Bronwen Maddox
…of fighting in Gaza…
Isaac Herzog
…the circumstances of war.
Bronwen Maddox
…which we all understand. We understand, but I want to stick on this question of ‘international law,’ which you said that is important to Israel. It is central to what Chatham House does. It is written on the – as a goal on the ceiling of the entrance hall, and I want to ask you whether it is the aim of the Israeli Government to expel or persuade Palestinians to leave. Finance Minister Smotrich, also a Defence Minister, has said that ‘Gaza will be completely destroyed, and its Palestinian population will leave in great numbers to third countries.’ That provoked a statement by the UK, France and Canada, condemning this abhorrent language and warning that this could be a breach of international humanitarian law.
Isaac Herzog
Well, let me say that Israel is a democracy with as far-reaching free speech as imaginable, but does not reflect in any way the Israeli policy. Israel does not intend…
Bronwen Maddox
This is the Finance Minister…
Isaac Herzog
Wait a minute.
Bronwen Maddox
…and a member…
Isaac Herzog
Israel does not intend…
Bronwen Maddox
…of the government.
Isaac Herzog
Be – our political system is somewhat different than yours. It’s a coalition…
Bronwen Maddox
I – we’re – the world is quite aware…
Isaac Herzog
It’s a coalition…
Bronwen Maddox
…of the Israeli…
Isaac Herzog
…system…
Bronwen Maddox
…political system now.
Isaac Herzog
…but this is absolutely not the Israeli position or intention. Israel made clear it does not intend to expel…
Bronwen Maddox
And…
Isaac Herzog
…anyone.
Bronwen Maddox
…do you…
Isaac Herzog
It does not intend to expel – we…
Bronwen Maddox
…condemn that statement, then?
Isaac Herzog
I – we’ve made it clear.
Bronwen Maddox
Do you?
Isaac Herzog
Wait, because I’m the President, and I’m the President of all political views in Israel…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
…I’m not dealing with the way we argue with Israelis in Israel as when I’m appearing in the international arena. But what I want to say, it’s like you would say, these Ministers spoke about occupation. The Prime Minister made clear, even two weeks ago, in a podcast here in Britain that Israel has no intention to occupy land in Gaza.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
But for the day after, we want to have a different management of Gaza, and somebody should go in and manage Gaza. And this is what you should focus on in the international arena, how do we bring the day after? Because we should all look for the day after. We should all include it as part of the major change in the region with our Arab allies and with the Abraham Accords countries, because that’s the future of the region.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
That’s where we need to move on as nations…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
…and by that, also reach a platform of dialogue with the Palestinians.
Bronwen Maddox
So, that is where many, many people and countries would like to get to, but I just want to ask you about one more aspect of the present, which is the West Bank and what is happening at the moment there. And I’d like to ask for what your view of the expansion of settlements that is going on now and the authorisation by the Israeli Government of more controversial building, particularly the outpost, so, the area known as ‘E1,’ which would bisect…
Isaac Herzog
So…
Bronwen Maddox
…the West Bank.
Isaac Herzog
…the issue of bi – the issue of E1 is it was declared by member – by Minister Smotrich, but that does not mean that it’s happening tomorrow. It’s a long overall process with a lot of bureaucracy, and therefore, I think it’s also part of the political discourse in Israel, and it’s part of the legitimate discourse in a democracy. Meaning there is a strong school of thought in Israel that definitely has evolved dramatically following October 7th, that casts doubt about the ability to reach an agreement with the Palestinians. That is the outcome, the – also the emotional and psychological outcome of the – of October 7th, because people had a wake-up call about the fact that in the area near Gaza, in an internationally recognised boundary since 1949, it was violated in the most brutal way. So, they have their doubt, that’s what we – human beings do when they have – they’ve been traumatised, and they’re thinking about it.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
And that’s – I respect the fact that there is an enormous debate in Israel about all these issues.
Bronwen Maddox
Right, so let’s…
Isaac Herzog
These are life and death issues for us. That does not mean…
Bronwen Maddox
And…
Isaac Herzog
…that everything you read here in the media, which usually, honestly, I’m saying, is most times, one-sided and does not go into the details itself, does not understand the debate in Israel. Takes a certain sentence that says, “This is Israel,” because we need to bash Israel…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm hmm.
Isaac Herzog
…on a daily basis.
Bronwen Maddox
What is your view of these settlements? You’ve said in May this year, “Settlement is one of the cornerstones of Zionism and the Jewish story,” and that “On the West Bank, it is a positive, wonderful, and thriving project and Israel’s defensive shield.”
Isaac Herzog
So, I will say that because people translated the word ‘Hityashvut,’ that means from day one in the Zionist movement, every town and village in Israel was a settlement. I spoke about the whole notion of building a new village and a new town in Israel, and I respect that notion because that’s from the early days of establishing our nation.
Bronwen Maddox
So, I understand…
Isaac Herzog
I did not speak…
Bronwen Maddox
…that.
Isaac Herzog
…about boundaries, nor did I speak about any specific thing, and yet, I must tell you that there are settlements and towns and villages in the West Bank that are a source of pride and people are amazing. And we agreed way back that there are ways and means to reach an amicable agreement with the Palestinians, despite the fact that there are settlements. It’s been discussed in the Camp David discussions already back in 2000.
Bronwen Maddox
What do you think the Israeli Government should do now to stop the violence that is happening by settlers against Palestinians?
Isaac Herzog
So, there is – we have a very strong legal system, there is investigations and adjudication and law enforcement apparatuses and courts, and we’re par – and the court and the entire legal system is operating on it. We are not indifferent to it that there could be such instances, but I would not, because of that, in any way generalise or categorise the citizens of Israel who live beyond the 67 boundaries.
Bronwen Maddox
Let’s come to, if you like, the day after. Who or what do you think should manage Gaza?
Isaac Herzog
So, I think that, you know, in the vine leaves, or how you call it, there are many ideas, but part of it has to do with regional co-operation. We should make sure that the pillar of the region called the Abraham Accords will stay strong and intact and be enhanced and upgraded, including with other nations. And part of it has to do with their ability to have a Marshall Plan for Gaza for the day after, without terror, but giving a real future. Including the ability of young people to study and grow and understand that they’re part of a Middle East that moves towards peace. It’s difficult to imagine it right now.
Bronwen Maddox
So, a Palestinian…
Isaac Herzog
There’s nothing I want more than that.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
But for that, sometimes you have to take harsh steps and fight in order to change the course. Otherwise, the Middle East will be jihadist. Look at the fate of Lebanon, look at the fate of Syria…
Bronwen Maddox
But let’s…
Isaac Herzog
…give a chance to all of these developments in the region, and understand that they’re all a direct result of the fact that we fought bravely and courageously…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm hmm.
Isaac Herzog
…against many people’s views and changed the course of history, and unfortunately, also paid heavy prices for that.
Bronwen Maddox
Can you see the point where Israel comes to recognise a Palestinian state for Palestinian people living in parallel?
Isaac Herzog
So, in order to reach that stage, it’s like, you know, it’s like a chicken and egg. First, you have to attend to the innermost psychological fears of all sides concerned and deal with it. Just coming with a formula saying, “Okay, two-state solution,” doesn’t attend to the fact that you have to deal with people-to-people relationship and tissues of life. If you walk in the streets of Jerusalem, if you go to any institution in Jerusalem and in many other places, you see Jew and Muslim dwelling together, living side by side in enormous success, fantastic success. Which is not reported anywhere or described…
Bronwen Maddox
Okay.
Isaac Herzog
…anywhere.
Bronwen Maddox
But that is…
Isaac Herzog
And wait – and in the war, I can tell you, if you go to the Beersheba Hospital, which was bombarded by missiles from Iran, and you walk into the bunkers now because the building was demolished above ground, and all of these units and all of these system – medical systems, you see Professor – Muslim Professors and Doctors and Nurses in – with Jewish Professors, Doctors and Nurses…
Bronwen Maddox
President Herzog…
Isaac Herzog
…all living together…
Bronwen Maddox
…it is again…
Isaac Herzog
…in peace.
Bronwen Maddox
…a wonderful picture that you are painting. What I’m asking…
Isaac Herzog
But I am inviting you…
Bronwen Maddox
…you…
Isaac Herzog
…to see it.
Bronwen Maddox
…is whether you think Israel can take a step towards a two-state solution?
Isaac Herzog
In the future, we should dream and try to realise amicable peace with our Palestinian neighbours, absolutely. But for that, we have to deal with the fact that terror cannot reign in our land. I said it three months before October 7th, in a speech in the US Congress, I described how terror creates havoc and cannot be acceptable in any way. And if I – and I beg, I beg all my friends in the United Kingdom, and all my friends in Australia and Canada and other places, they have to understand, terror starts with us but will never end with us. If we don’t stand firmly against terror, it will hit and plague all our cities.
Bronwen Maddox
What is your plan for how Israel can live along with the Palestinians and with the Israeli Palestinian Arabs who are…
Isaac Herzog
Alright.
Bronwen Maddox
…within its…
Isaac Herzog
So, I truly believe…
Bronwen Maddox
…society?
Isaac Herzog
…that if you look at the historical trajectory, okay, there – it – there’s a very strong engine of the fact that Israel is a fact of life, an acceptable state in the Middle East, and for that matter, it’s about time that we have an inner deep dialogue between Jew and Muslim around us. This is the way it should be. Whenever people try to do it, there’s a lot of backfiring, but it’s inevitable that we will have a dialogue and as part of that dialogue, should also have a dialogue about the Palestinians and the Israelis as such. It is not detached from the fact that in order to do it, we have to overcome the situation of terror.
Bronwen Maddox
I – that is a vision of a dialogue, which is admirable, but I’m asking you for a plan that countries can work to, including Israel.
Isaac Herzog
So, the plan right now, and it should be an immediate plan, a practical plan, not a something metamorphical, and a practical plan. I mean, you know, we have the Palestinian Authority right near us. We’re having a – we have interface with them all the time, but the plan should be, how do we make a secure state of Israel living in peace side-by-side with the Palestinians? And in order to do that, terror must be ruled out. I think that the big error of the free world and its leadership in the current crisis is that they should have said to Hamas, “If you guys don’t release the hostages immediately, we’re not talking to any one of you.” But instead, what we’re getting is, “Okay, you’re not ref – releasing the hostages, get them out, but in addition, we will punish Israel and say a sta – we recognise a Palestinian state.”
And what’s the outcome of it? And Marco Rubio said it correctly, was that for a long time, Hamas refused to sit down and negotiate with Israel on a hostage deal because they felt they have the higher ground in the international media, international arena. And what transpired is that if and only when the Israeli cabinet made a decision that it goes into Gaza, then they went back to the table.
Bronwen Maddox
Do you wonder how it’s come to this? You, as President, you have a role, as you said, above politics.
Isaac Herzog
Exactly.
Bronwen Maddox
Responsible…
Isaac Herzog
Above. I don’t have any…
Bronwen Maddox
…for the core values.
Isaac Herzog
…executive role. I don’t have an execut…
Bronwen Maddox
…of the country, and the free world, as you’ve talked about it, your allies and friends, are using some of the worst words that are used about human relations, ‘genocide, ethnic cleansing,’ and so on, about Israel, that used to be a beacon of democracy to those countries. Do you feel a responsibility to change that?
Isaac Herzog
But look, we ha – are a beacon of democracy. We have a very vibrant democracy, we debate on so many issues that sometimes, a lot of you guys are confused, but that’s what we do, we are a democracy. We have – I meet thousands of Israelis a week. Israelis care, Israelis want change, Israelis want to exit from this war, but the fact of the matter is that the enemy is down there in the tunnels, together with allies in Qatar, okay, they think that they can drive Israel crazy and the region crazy and the world crazy. And I think that it’s very difficult because media likes to put a certain focus, but they have to open a larger vista. And I say it outright, believe me, Israelis are not indifferent to anybody’s pains, and part of it is, like, blaming Israel for all the faults of the world, but the truth of the matter is, we were on the verge of normalisation with Saudi Arabia, and somebody decided to carry out the most aggressive, barbaric derailment of that process.
Bronwen Maddox
That is true, and then Israel decided to take all the actions that followed and have brought…
Isaac Herzog
What would we…?
Bronwen Maddox
…condemnation.
Isaac Herzog
What we – should we have done? Leave our citizens abducted and abducted and the missiles landing on our wor – on our head? You know how many years missiles landed from Gaza?
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah.
Isaac Herzog
We pulled out of Gaza in 2005…
Bronwen Maddox
We…
Isaac Herzog
…to the last iota and we were bombarded.
Bronwen Maddox
…are going to stick with the present and future. We’re not going back into that bit of history.
Isaac Herzog
Sure.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Let’s go to questions. We have a lot. Let me – if we can have the lights up, as well. We have a lot of questions, a lot of people. Can we go…
Isaac Herzog
Yeah, we have…
Bronwen Maddox
…here?
Isaac Herzog
The timetable is 20 minutes left.
Bronwen Maddox
We do, 23 minutes.
Isaac Herzog
Okay.
Bronwen Maddox
Whether you’ll thank me or not for those extra three minutes remains to be seen.
Isaac Herzog
I will thank you, Bronwen.
Tobias Ellwood
Hello. Tobias Ellwood, former Foreign Minister for the Middle East. Sir, really pleased to see you here…
Isaac Herzog
Okay.
Tobias Ellwood
…and use those words that friends can speak frankly and can argue. But I say this as a military man, what’s made it difficult for me to continue to support is the utility of military force in securing a long-term strategy, because I don’t understand what that strategy is. If we take Doha, was Britain lobbied to then say, “Let’s get rid of any Hamas leader there”? And you mentioned the ‘Marshall Plan,’ and this is my question, you could start this today, using those Abrahamic Accord signatories, to take Erez or Rafah, to take 10km worth, a zone, and start to rebuild without Hamas. To show that there is a future for Palestinians that don’t want to be part of Hamas, don’t want anything to do with them.
That is where we are all united in a Palestine area without Hamas responsible, but at the moment, there is no plan, no strategy, no vision, clarity as to where you want to go, other than more war. And that’s led to the idea that actually you’re not interested in a two-state solution, and that makes it tougher for people like us that want to continue to support…
Isaac Herzog
So, thank you…
Tobias Ellwood
…Israel.
Isaac Herzog
…Tobias, you’ve actually touched upon a very, very important topic. We’ve seen fascinating TV reports in Israel, interviews of a huge amount of Palestinians in Gaza who have been interviewed, and eight out of ten out there say, “We want a different life. We are fed up of Hamas, we want them out, we want to live in peace, we had a much better life before this war. We want to finish with this war and move forward.” It’s amazing to see, this is not reported at all in the international media. Channel 12 in Israel, Ohad Hemo, made series of interviews ‘cause he has his own – all his friends in Gaza, and they say it out loud. They say it either with – on camera or under disguise, and they say, “We beg you, finish the job and get us a better life. Get rid of Hamas, we’re fed up of Hamas.”
Bronwen Maddox
And what Tobias…
Isaac Herzog
If there were elections…
Bronwen Maddox
…Ellwood is asking you is what is…
Isaac Herzog
Wait.
Bronwen Maddox
…the plan?
Isaac Herzog
If there were elections now, that’s why your idea is smart. I’ve never heard of the idea, it’s a smart idea.
Tobias Ellwood
Well, it’s from the House of Commons, but that probably why you didn’t hear it.
Isaac Herzog
It’s worthwhile checking. It’s worthwhile checking. I will actually pass it on, because we are looking for ways. There are also a lot of opposition forces in Gaza who want to start – and we opened up now for the private sector to go into Gaza, okay.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Let’s go here.
Amelia Jenne
Amelia Jenne from Channel 4 News. Our Health Secretary has said that you need to answer the allegations levelled against your government of war crimes, of ethnic cleansing and of genocide. What is your answer?
Isaac Herzog
Well, I di – total – we totally reject it, totally out of hand. Our distinguished Ambassador here, Tzipi Hotovely, she actually responded, and the Embassy responded. Mrs Hotovely will be retiring in five days’ time, so we thank her for her five years’ service in the United Kingdom. But we reject it out of hand. We just answered it, and may I just remind you that even a recent UK report said that it – that Israel’s not carrying out, God forbid, any genocide, and we reject it out of hand. Not only that, there are 13 fully operational hospitals in Gaza, all the medical equipment and services are there. The UAE hospital in southern of Gaza is operating fully, and there are clinics all around. These are all – there’s – you know, it’s very easy to blame Israel without understanding the facts or without seeing it for themselves.
Amelia Jenne
And so just, if I may, you said that you had a ‘tough’ discussion with Sir Keir Starmer. what was tough that was said?
Isaac Herzog
Because, of course, Pr – you know, Prime Minister Starmer presented his views regarding a Palestinian state, regarding the humanitarian aid in Gaza, and I offered that there will be a fact-finding mission coming to Israel, sitting with us and studying the situation in Gaza on the humanitarian level, because we have full answers and we are prut – fully transparent. And so, you know, we argued, we definitely argued, out of respect. We also had the things that we agreed upon. We agreed that Iran is a worldwide threat. We agreed that Hamas must be removed. We agree on it, but how to do it? How to reach from this point of an idea into reality? Then, of course, starts the argument.
Bronwen Maddox
Go to another question. Second, back on the aisle. Yes.
Nik Gowing
Nik Gowing, private member of Chatham House. President Herzog, twice you used the word ‘amicable settlement’ you envision with the Palestinians. Amicable, how on earth can you achieve that in the current atmosphere?
Isaac Herzog
So, you know, because in Chatham House and throughout history, you remember moments where things look dire and then reality changes. I mean, you have to seek a dream. Martin Luther King said, “I have a dream.” We should have the dream, but we should have the dream with somebody who does not call for my eradication, who doesn’t call me a, you know, an ‘infidel,’ who doesn’t want to butcher me or rape my family. That’s the story, we should have an amicable solution with people, we can sit down and negotiate in-depth. And because of that, right now, we are in a situation of war which we did not want, we did not seek.
It was forced upon us and we were forced to defend ourselves, and all of a sudden, we woke up and realised that the entire surrounding of ours is – there’s – has a huge infrastructure which was laid down by Iran, by Qasem Soleimani and all his other allies, and, of course, by the Supreme Leader, to have a grand plan to annihilate us. That’s the real story. Think about it. Let’s take a small tribe in Yemen…
Bronwen Maddox
We’re talking…
Isaac Herzog
Wait, wait.
Bronwen Maddox
Nik’s question…
Isaac Herzog
Wait.
Bronwen Maddox
…is about the amicable…
Isaac Herzog
But let’s take…
Bronwen Maddox
…solution.
Isaac Herzog
…a small tribe in Yemen, the Houthis, 50,000 people in all, Shiites, they are armed to their neck like a major country. They have ballistic missiles and cruise missiles and let me just tell you what the life in Israel is with these guys who are being fe – and no, because you can have a solution, but you can’t force me to retreat or give a plan, or do anything before I know my security is arranged. And these guys, we get an alert on our app saying to us, “A missile is on your way, get ready,” and then we are told where it’s going to land, and then Star Wars starts, and we have to intercept it. That’s the new current reality that we have to deal with.
Bronwen Maddox
I don’t think we got far with the amicable, but we did get back to the Houthis. In the middle there, and then I’m coming over here again. Sorry, with the – next to you, and then I’ll come back to you.
Marc Weller
Marc Weller, University of Cambridge, and soon Chatham House. Welcome, President. You are familiar with the view, and particularly familiar with the view of some, that the Palestinians of the regions all share in the responsibility for the dreadful events of 7 October. And the question is, could this view not risk justifying the transfer of the horrible cost of urban warfare in a highly densely populated territory onto civilians? Bronwen told us, or reminded us, of hostile destruction of civilian infrastructure, sort of, Grozny-like pictures, failure to protect sensitive sites, like hospitals and concentrations of civilians that are displaced, the vulnerable, failure to provide civilians with sufficient food. After all, is it not the…?
Bronwen Maddox
Forgive me, welcome to Chatham House. Could you get to your question, please?
Marc Weller
That is the final point now. After all, is it not the foundational principle of humanitarian law that civilians remain protected, whatever the origin of a conflict? Thank you.
Isaac Herzog
Absolutely, and that is why, you know, from day one, we said that there are many innocent civilians there and they must be protected. And that is why if you go to a neighbourhood, okay, that’s the tragedy of this war, the war is that this terror organisation, which is operated like an army of a state, okay, I mean, it’s a real army of a state, with tens of thousands of terrorists and under a huge system of control and command, they do it from civilian surroundings. They do it from people’s homes. Missiles that were fired at my – me and my family were pressed from people’s living rooms, and nobody doubts it. It’s known, we have pictures. It’s also from Lebanon, same from here, from Gaza.
So, what do you do? How do you undermine it? How do you deal with it? It’s not that anybody – you alert with millions and millions of phone calls and messages and leaflets and tell people, “Move out,” then you go in, then you eradicate that infrastructure, and then you can enable people to go back. That’s what happened throughout that war – this war.
Bronwen Maddox
And if you have killed the families, and you have said…
Isaac Herzog
God forbid…
Bronwen Maddox
…various things down the years…
Isaac Herzog
…we don’t want to kill, we alert.
Bronwen Maddox
…about whether the families are accomplices. I’m thinking not just of the…
Isaac Herzog
No, we never say…
Bronwen Maddox
…remarks that have…
Isaac Herzog
We never said…
Bronwen Maddox
…been picked up.
Isaac Herzog
…that the families are accomplices, God forbid. We try and so many – in many, many cases, we rescue, we help, we remove, we do a lot of things.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
You know, I’m – me – my wife and I, we’ve gone to well over 1,300 bereaved families in Israel, in many cases, Soldiers. The families tell us how they’re proud that the Soldiers helped Palestinian civilians get out of the war, even though their loved ones were under danger.
Bronwen Maddox
We could dwell on that point. But we have gone back over the things you’ve said on this, including a 2009, way back, interview with radio saying that actually “the families are accomplices.”
Isaac Herzog
No, I did not say the families…
Bronwen Maddox
On Dutch radio.
Isaac Herzog
No, I said that if you have – Bronwen, and if you had in your own living room, a long-range missile, what do you think it is?
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
I mean, think about it, does any decent human being in the free world have such lethal weapons in his own infrastructure? Does it make even sense?
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
Isaac Herzog
Does it make sense? Is it responsible? That’s what I’ve mentioned then in 2009.
Bronwen Maddox
Come over here, on the aisle.
Isaac Herzog
And that was with Lebanon, too.
Bronwen Maddox
Yes.
Lemma Shehadi
Lemma Shehadi from The National. How will you repair the Abraham Accords? How can they survive, and how confident are you that the Arab states will agree to the Marshall Plan that you’re proposing?
Isaac Herzog
I’m not, I’m not in the negotiation process, nor am I in the back room or anything like that. My vision, my vision, and I think it will – I mean – and despite this very complicated moment – and actually, this complicated moment can give rise, can be a jumpstart for an exit strategy from the war by getting all the hostages out and having a final deal on the table and a proposal for the day after, which will have the pillars of the Middle East based on this regional co-operation.
We – I mean, we all share, we all share the threat from Tehran. We all share the desire to move forward and have strong relations. You can see the incredible relations in – with the Ara – Abraham Accord countries, you can see the tissues of relationship that have evolved dramatically, and I can tell you that the potential is unbelievable. My vision, really, the vision that has been laid out by the US administration, also by President Trump, the connectivity between Israel all the way to India, through the Middle East, through Saudi and the Gulf states, can be a major sea change, also, for Britain, because it will connect Britain to Southeast Asia and the United States to Australia through the Eastern Hemisphere. It’s a huge change.
Bronwen Maddox
Again, on the aisle.
Jane Prinsley
Thank you, President Herzog. Jane Prinsley from The Jewish Chronicle newspaper. President Herzog, young Jews in this country and in other Western states, are turning against Israel over this war in Gaza. Are you worried about this in an existential way for the Jewish state, and what’s your message to them?
Isaac Herzog
My message is to all Jews around the world that we respect, love and care for them and their wellbeing. It’s legitimate to have a debate. I invite people to come and see for themselves. There are also many, many, many young Jews who care and support Israel. I heard there was a very impressive rally last Sunday with about 70,000 people demonstrating. I can only regret the fact that the BBC and other outlets did not report about it, because that’s a very important statement to combat anti-Semitism. I also raised with Prime Minister Starmer the worry about the rise of anti-Semitism in the United Kingdom, and he has promised me, of course, and he reiterated his stance that his government is fighting very harshly against anti-Semitism. So, we know that there is debate, and debate is something legitimate, provided people know the facts.
Bronwen Maddox
In the middle, here.
Professor Amnon Aran
Thank you, President. My name is Professor Amnon Aran, and my question to you is as follows. You said in the beginning that Israel – sorry, that Hamas has procrastinated and also, negotiated in bad faith, and that’s why a deal has not been reached. But we’ve had a different narrative from the Israeli Government, members of it, especially Minister Ben-Gvir, who said that he was “proud to have blocked several deals,” as has Minister Smotrich. And my question to you is, do you feel that you have used the full power of your office to suppress those kind of positions and their ability to prevent a hostage deal?
Isaac Herzog
So, I’ve used the full power of my office to get to a hostage deal and to assist the hostage families. No, because you – and…
Bronwen Maddox
But that wasn’t…
Isaac Herzog
Because I don’t think…
Bronwen Maddox
…his question.
Isaac Herzog
…that – the focus on Ben-Gvir and Smotrich is everybody’s scapegoat. It’s everybody’s scapegoat, ‘cause I’ve been working with the hostage families and the military and the negotiating team and the Prime Minister and his team and everybody and the international community, to get to a deal. And the issue is there could have been errors in the past, but I can attest clearly that in the last six months or eight months, Israel has said yes to every proposal. And it was made clear, may I remind you, that Ben-Gvir even left the government, and therefore, it’s – and this issue of saying, “Because of them, everything stopped” is a mistake. Because the truth is, and I say it outright, because I’ve seen, also, the intelligence, I see how this rhetoric of the jihadists, they say, “Yeah, we’ll say yes in order to appease the world, but here, we’ll put the poison pill in that makes it impossible.”
And this works in terms of the good image, but the truth of the matter is, ask the Americans, President Trump said it many times, even Witkoff, his emissary, said to me, okay, last week, and said – made it clear that Hamas is impossible in the way they negotiate. He said, ‘These are bad guys, they don’t want to move an iota in any term in the negotiations.’ And that’s – we should understand that. It’s very easy always to blame Israel, but let’s remember, Israel has released the worst kind of terrorists in those deals and was willing to do the same now, and the worst kind of terrorists, people that you will not imagine that will be freed, but for to get our hostages back, we see it as a top priority.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay. Over here in the middle.
John Ray
Hi there. John Ray from ITV News. You said a couple of times that you “see all the intelligence.” So, can I take you back to Doha? Can you tell us whether that mission was a failure, given the reports that the targets escaped with their lives? And secondly, hit or miss, was it a – just a great big signal to the world that there are no circumstances in which Israel will do any kind of ceasefire deal with Hamas, given the fact that if they turn up to discuss the proposal, you try to kill them?
Isaac Herzog
So, I, as was said many – beforehand, of course, I wasn’t involved in or aware of the operation, but – because I was traveling here. But I will say clearly, that this actually can be an opportunity to get to a deal, and Israel made clear even yesterday and today that it’s open and wants to get to a – to the deal. The deal is the end of the war, the exit from the war and a hostage deal. And I can attest…
John Ray
Sorry.
Isaac Herzog
Wait, I can at…
John Ray
But the…
Isaac Herzog
Let’s analyze Khalil al-Hayya, for example. Khalil al-Hayya was the Chairman of Hamas, and I remind you all that I said that they take decisions only by consent. So, one dissenting opinion ruins the deal. Khalil al-Hayya was one of the perpetrators, planners and instigators of the October 7th massacre. He was ve – he was part of it, and he is known for that. He had blood of thousands of Israelis on his hand, and Khalil al-Hayya kept on like a slime, like, carrying this…
Bronwen Maddox
We’ve had the ‘slime’ before…
Isaac Herzog
…sticky stuff…
Bronwen Maddox
…but Mr President…
Isaac Herzog
…unending.
John Ray
Is he still alive?
Isaac Herzog
I don’t know, I don’t have any information as to the outcome of the operation at this moment.
John Ray
Can you tell us something about the fact-finding mission that you’ve talked about?
Isaac Herzog
Yeah, I think that if you want to study the humanitarian situation in a professional manner, rather than keep on repeating these declarations all the time, when we know otherwise, and we have a monitoring system on an hourly basis of everything, from calories to electricity to water, to food supplies to distribution and everywhere.
Bronwen Maddox
So, is that an invitation?
Isaac Herzog
We have an argument – Yes, we’ve…
Bronwen Maddox
President Herzog, is that…
Isaac Herzog
I’ve offered…
Bronwen Maddox
…an invitation to the international media…
Isaac Herzog
I off…
Bronwen Maddox
…to go into Gaza?
Isaac Herzog
Not media, it’s not my role.
Bronwen Maddox
You’ve been complaining…
Isaac Herzog
That’s not my role.
Bronwen Maddox
…about the media not…
Isaac Herzog
I’ve offered…
Bronwen Maddox
…reporting things right.
Isaac Herzog
…a mission on behalf of the – His Majesty’s Government to come and study it.
Bronwen Maddox
Here on the aisle.
Olivia O’Sullivan
Thank you. Olivia O’Sullivan, Chatham House. Mr President, I want to stay on the topic of a ‘fact-finding mission.’ You’ve said repeatedly that you want people to “understand the reality that you face and see for themselves,” but in April, two British MPs, Abtisam Mohamed and Yuan Yang, tried to visit Israel to do just that and their entry was blocked. Are you saying now that you will allow British parliamentarians to come to Israel and assess the humanitarian situation…
Isaac Herzog
So, you see…
Olivia O’Sullivan
…in the West Bank area?
Isaac Herzog
…that’s where we’re starting to distort the discourse. I’m not getting into political debate, nor am I relating to the fact that these two MPs, according to Israeli law, were not allowed for obvious reasons in the law. I’m talking…
Bronwen Maddox
It’s not obvious, but…
Isaac Herzog
…on the level of a dialogue between governments, between Foreign Ministers, between professionals. They know how to do it, that’s what Diplomats do, and they have to work. May I invite you to see the website of the – of COGAT, that’s the Co-ordination – the Co-ordinator of the Israeli Government, which publishes in-depth data every day. You can challenge it, look into it, and ask questions, it’s all there, just as an example of something which is not broadcasted or told to the British public.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. I think we’ve got room – one more, on the edge.
Christian Edwards
Thank you. Christian Edwards from CNN. We reported today that the Hamas delegation in Qatar was due to respond to the latest ceasefire proposal yesterday evening. Israel targeted that delegation yesterday afternoon. Should we conclude that Israel does not want a ceasefire?
Isaac Herzog
Right, so it was – it’s just a repetition of the previous question, and I said Israel made clear yesterday, all the times makes clear that it’s ready for the complete deal, the end of war, getting our hostages and moving forward. This is what Israel is willing to do and it’s waiting and waiting and waiting, and we see all the time how they manipulate the proposals.
Bronwen Maddox
We can…
Isaac Herzog
I think we’re almost at the end.
Bronwen Maddox
We’re almost done. There’s one chap who’s been very patient in the front, and I’m going to take one more here. There are more hands up, and thank you…
Isaac Herzog
Yeah, but we have…
Bronwen Maddox
…for asking the questions.
Isaac Herzog
You’ll remember our timetable.
David Abrahams
Thank you.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay.
David Abrahams
Excellent to listen to you and get your views and the inside information that we all – don’t always get from the media. My question is that there’s two wars being…
Bronwen Maddox
Excuse me, you haven’t said who you are.
David Abrahams
Oh, David Abrahams, former Vice President of RUSI. My question is that there’s two wars being raged. We’ve spoken very much about one of the wars. The other one is soft power, public relations. Israel has never been very keen to put any resources into public relations into different countries, for instance, this country. That’s why we’ve got marches on the street very regularly.
Bronwen Maddox
Will you forgive me? Could you make it a question, please?
David Abrahams
Well, yes. Why – do you regret the fact that we haven’t put money into public rel – you haven’t put money into public relations, and are you prepared to do so in the future, going forward?
Isaac Herzog
So, I definitely regret this fact. Again, I’m the President, I’m not the executive branch. I think we should’ve done much better. I could not agree with you more.
Bronwen Maddox
On that note, we are going to have to stop. Thank you very much, indeed, for your time…
Isaac Herzog
Thank you, Bronwen.
Bronwen Maddox
…President Herzog, thank you…
Isaac Herzog
Thank you.
