James Nixey
Yeah, all good?
Dr Hakima el Haité
I have no chair. I’m supposed to be sitting. So, I’ll stand up. Thank you so much. Madame President, Excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, dear James Nixey, first, thank you for hosting us. You are a wonderful host. So, thank you on behalf Liberal International. Ladies and gentlemen, it is truly an honour to welcome the esteemed President of Georgia, the first woman to hold this prestigious position in the history of this ancient country, but a young democracy.
The presence of the first woman President of Georgia is critical moment – in this critical moment, underscores the resilience, strength and leadership that women bring to the forefront of political decision-making, serves as an inspiration to women and girls all over the world. In the midst of welcoming Madam President, we are also mindful of the challenges and threats faced by your country, especially in light of the current conflict in Ukraine and the ongoing Russian aggression in the region.
Georgia was the first country to experience Russian neo-imperialism and violation of internationally recognised border back in 2008. The reaction of the international community during the Russian invasion of Georgia was definitely not enough. And this reaction opened doors and emboldened Russia to deteriorate the international order even further, resulting in numerous lost lives and human tragedies. The spectre of Russia aggressions looms large, casting a shadow over the aspiration of Georgian people for peace, stability and European integration.
In the midst of these turbulent times, we liberals are standing in solidarity with the people of Georgia. We are affirming our commitment to upholding the principles of sovereignty, territorial integrity and the right of nations to choose their own path, free from foreign malign interference. As I explained to you, Madam President, as Liberal International, we have inside our regional organisations, Vice President coming from Ukraine, and we were advocating for many years, not only within Europe, but also elsewhere in the world, in Africa, in Latino America, in Asia, through our organisations to advocate for Ukraine integrity, and also, the – all the Eastern Europe countries, and especially Georgia.
Ladies and gentlemen, as we gather here today, let us reflect on the journey of Georgia toward an Euro-Atlantic future, guided by the principles of democracy, freedom, and for progress. Liberal International has stood by Georgia and its political forces that strive for European future, viewing Georgia not as a post-Soviet country, but as a future member state of European Union. Georgia’s steadfast commitment to democratic values has been the driving force behind its aspiration to join the EU, a decision that promises to bring greater political stability and security to the region. The path toward EU membership for Georgia is not just a political goal, but a testament to the shared value that bind us together. By aligning with European standards and practices, by defending human rights and rooting democratic values, Georgia will not only enhance its development, but also, strengthen the network of democratic allies in the Black Sea region.
It is crucial that Georgia political parties come together in co-operation and unity, recognising that their collective effort will pave the way for progress toward EU integration. The journey ahead may be challenging, but with a shared vision and a commitment to democratic principles, Georgia can overcome any obstacles on its path towards a brighter future. Let’s reaffirm our support for Georgia’s European aspiration and democratic forces in your country. Today, let’s celebrate the historic moment of having you, Madam President, and on behalf Liberal International, the Bureau members, and myself, you have in us, a undefeatable ally. So, we are here to support you and also to mobilise the international community toward your goal. Your goal is our goal. Thank you for being here. You are a real inspiration for all of us and we are delighted to have you. Thank you [applause].
James Nixey
Well, thank you very much, indeed, for doing my entire job for me, really. You should be here, but thank you, seriously, Dr el Haité and Liberal International for the latest, and now infrequent, but very fruitful partnerships. Madam President, it’s not our first time here either. You were here in 2009, a roundtable. It was just prior to the Obama administration taking over, I think, in the United States. We called it a – it was called “The Georgian Challenge, the New Administration, Europe and Russia,” so everything. We’ve called it today, “Georgia’s European Opportunity,” as Dr el Haité was saying.
So, thank you very much, indeed. Ladies and gentlemen, we’re on the record so you can tweet and ascribe to your heart’s content. The President has said she’ll speak for approximately ten/15 minutes. So, we’ll have a reasonable amount of time, I’m sorry we’re a little late, for questions and discussion. Madam President, the floor is yours.
Salomé Zourabichvili
Thank you [applause]. Thank you very much. Georgia’s European opportunity, the title says everything. That is the opportunity, I think, that Georgia has been looking for as much and as long as it has been independent. It’s in the DNA of Georgia, I think, to be European, to want to be European. It is what was driving the Georgians that were preparing the Georgian independence of the 20th Century. All the independence fathers that we had were all European-oriented. They might have been receiving instruction in Russian universities, but they were looking towards Europe, towards the European models. One of the great fathers of Georgian nation and independence, Ilia Chavchavadze, was looking at the model of Ireland. Others were looking at the models of Switzerland. So, it was always westward-looking, and it’s really what founded the first independent Republic of Georgia, after a long period of Russian – being in the Russian imperialist mould for the 19th Century.
When Georgia recovered its independence in 1918, the model was – not only the model was Europe, but the forged constitution that was, in many terms, well in advance from that were in Europe at that time, on many grounds, and many of the things that we are trying to do to rediscover today, were already there. The justice system was much in advance. We wouldn’t have needed any recommendation for the European Union if it had existed then. There was a strong defence and the whole constitution was aimed at the defence of human rights and of minorities, which was very important at that time. Of course, I will not repeat here what is, I think, known, that the women had the right to elect and to be elected, and that we had five women in the first Assembly, out of which one Muslim women.
All of that is what disappeared when Russia, in 1931 – when the first invasion of Russia – post the Russian imperial power, walked into Georgia through the 11th Red Army. That was just yesterday, 25th February, where we commemorate this very tragic day, which was the fall of Tbilisi and the beginning of 70 years of the Soviet regime. That changed many, many things, that had us forgot our past, our traditions, some of our principles, and obliged us when we recovered independence in 1991, to reinvent everything in a way, because so much time had gone by, so many things had changed. The Russia – Georgian whole elite, cultural, intellectual, had been decimated.
So, it was really a country to reinvent itself and to reinvent itself in very difficult conditions, because right from the beginning, in 1991, Russia started its fight against Georgian independence through supporting separatists. But also arming them, and fuelling the first war against the independent Georgia, which ended up in what we – was known in frozen conflicts that lasted forever, almost, until in 2008, through the war, Russia transformed these frozen conflicts into purely occupied territories, where it opened military bases, and where it is still today.
So, that was a very difficult past, but at the same time, an extraordinarily fast one, I would say. Because when I came for the first time in Georgia as Foreign Minister, first as French Ambassador and then a Foreign Minister in 2003, and before coming to Georgia as a French Ambassador, I toured many of the institutions in Paris and also, some of the European institutions, and the answer was very clear. Georgia will never be part of the European Neighbourhood Policy because Georgia is somewhere too far, too much distant from what is Europe and European Union. That was 2003.
We are 2024, and in 20 years, Georgia has passed all the steps, from not being in the Neighbourhood Policy, to entering the Neighbourhood Policy, to entering the association. The – has gotten the visa liberalisation, the Deep and – whatever is the name, Trade Agreement, and has been moving steadily towards what we were granted at the end of last year. So, 20 years after the time when we were somewhere else, the candidate status. And before that, we had gotten something that was not less important, that was a bit a disappointment for the Georgian population, but for someone like me that knew all the discussions that were happening before among the European partners, the European perspective of Georgia was something of a radical change. Because for the first time, Europeans were saying, “Well, geography does not matter anymore.” What is important is what are going to be the system, the institutions, and clearly recognising that Georgia had a destiny to be – or to come back into the European family.
So, European opportunity is something that really sounds as something very close to what Georgia has been moving towards all these years, and it’s not finished. We are leaving this immense change, that is symbolised by the status of candidate, at a time of maximum challenges, and those challenges start not with us. I think that the main thing that if I had one, only, message to deliver here, the one message would be that for Georgia to continue this path, for Georgia to really re-enter the European family as a full member. For all this, working towards this horizon to become reality and transform definitely a country, not as a post-Soviet, former Soviet, or whatever they like to call us still in some of the publications, but as a real European member, there is one immense challenge, which is Russia, and which is Russia today in Ukraine.
Yes, we have known and we have the experience and we have a lot to say about what it means to be a neighbour of Russia and to have been invaded again and again under the different forms of Russia and its different regimes, but today, the challenge is in Ukraine. There is no way to support Georgia, to help Georgia to continue on this path, if the first is not to support Ukraine, and that is something that is a common endeavour of all the Europeans, of all the Western partners, of course, including, and foremost, the Americans. That’s for everyone, the main objective.
Because if Russia does not recognise what it means to be one among the others, a nation in a community, in the – in an international community, if it continues to think that it can expand whenever it will feel some weakness, or not even weakness, simply because it has to expand because that’s its deep profound nature, then there will be no stability. There will be no peace, and it will be very difficult for countries like ours, like Moldova, like Ukraine, to continue on this path, that is the path towards peace and stability and prosperity, but first and foremost, peace and security. So, if Russia does not change – and the only way in which Russia is going to change is if Russia cannot win in Ukraine, and that, again, is the common responsibility.
Of course, there are countries that can do much more. Georgia is probably one of the countries that can do the least because of the situation, because of the occupied territories, because of this proximity that is felt almost every day, that is felt on this delimitation line, that is between us and the occupied territories, which tends to change almost every day. Where people are taken hostages, where the lives of the people on both sides of this delimitation line are getting worse and worse on our side, because this constant pressure is extremely psychologically difficult to live. And on the other side, because the population on the other side are denied of all the elementary rights. If they need medical support during COVID time, it was very visible. They come to Georgia in very difficult conditions because they’re not always allowed to cross, or they don’t know when they can cross. When they come for education, they come to Georgia.
In the respective occupied territories, the language, the national identity language, cultural language, Abkhazian, or Ossetian, is not defended in any way. Practically, it’s not spoken anymore. It’s Russian and Russification, what we have known in previous times for Georgia itself. Culture is not defended and there has been no delivery of what was expected by this – those that were the separatist forces in those occupied territories, which was to reinforce their identity, their specificity, has not happened. And for instance, in the case of Abkhazia, the one strongest principle that they had, which was that their land was their land and was not to be sold or given away to any foreigner, has now been overruled by Russia. Which has put very strong pressure, and has managed to get the authorisation from the so-called Parliament of Abkhazia to buy lands, to buy the airport, and to buy the port of Ochamchire on the Black Sea, which is, per se, a problem because they want there to have a new military base in addition to the already existing military bases.
So, Georgia’s future is in Ukraine, Europe’s future is in Ukraine, and Ukraine – that means Ukraine’s victory. Ukraine is already victorious in many respects because Russia has not succeeded, and that’s something that we should all understand, also, very well. Despite what the Russian propaganda can try to play on our public opinions, is that the aims – the war aims of President Putin have all been not fulfilled. The first aim was to dominate Ukraine in a matter of days, to see the President of Ukraine flee from Ukraine, together with his government, to take up Kiev and do what they called de-Nazify, which nobody knows what it means, because where are the Nazis today? One can ask. That didn’t happen.
Then they thought that their military weight was going to overcome the military resources of Ukraine very fast, in a matter of weeks or months, and they were making these deployments of tanks, all these threats with transferring tactical nuclear weapons to Belarus. All of that is more of a psychological war led by a old Agent of KGB, and there are no old Agent that remain. And that’s what inspires – that’s why President Putin had to change his Military Commanders thereover, because nothing was ever fulfilled the way they had imagined that this war was going to go.
Yes, they have not yet known what is a military pure defeat, and yes, Ukraine has not yet recovered its whole territory and its internationally recognised borders, but Ukraine has not lost anything. It has not lost the support of its own public opinion. Two years of war in these conditions is extremely difficult and extremely destructive for the cohesion of a population, and Ukraine has resisted to that, despite their, also, Russian propaganda that is very active to try to generate some kinds of reactions. Ukraine receives the support of the European partners, very strong support after two years. Thereto, our public opinions, despite the attempts to try to also affect the public opinions of the different countries around Ukraine or in Europe, it’s still a majority that supports this support of Ukraine, the military support, and remains in this disposition that solidarity has to overcome.
European partners have not been divided between them, despite the efforts of some European, without an ‘s’, because those that were to be in that group, finally managed to keep the right direction, and Europe has managed, after two years, to get together to allow this 50 billion package support to Ukraine. That is something that probably nobody would have said in advance that two years after, still Europe would manage to keep the consensus to that level and to keep the magnitude of this support.
Europeans and Americans have not been divided. That’s also something that very strongly, the Russians were trying to get. Of course, we don’t know what will come in the months to come, what will be the elections result, but if we look at what happens in some countries in Europe, it’s not enough to have a change of government and even some populist forces coming to power, to see a change of direction of the foreign policy. Because I think everybody realises today, that it’s a question that has become existential.
Early on, when I was talking about Georgia, I was always saying that for us, the issues are existential. Have been existential since Georgia recovered independence once, and recovered independence the second time, but today, it’s not only for us, we are on the same boat. It’s existential for all of us, and that’s the message that, I think, I want to share with a public opinion that is looking at Georgia, but also should be looking at themselves. At the impact that the Soviet propaganda is trying to have on the different public opinions, while using all kind of new methods, cyberattacks, financing some extremist groups, marginal groups, and having them portray some of the propaganda themes that are in favour in Russia. And by that, trying to undermine the cohesion of Western societies, of European societies.
But that doesn’t work that well, and for that, I must say that we are in advance compared to European societies, and because we have known that for a very long time. Yes, we have very active Soviet propaganda. Yes, we have the same thing. They are financing, also, marginal groups in Georgia. They’re preparing for our next elections in October and probably we’ll see an activation of all these attempts, but the difference is that Georgia is very resilient. We have had the experience of 70 years of Soviet propaganda, and at that time, the Georgian kitchens there were very active, and they were all very politicised. And that was a way through which the population really managed to keep its own sanity and the right track. Same thing after this independence, with the occupation of our territories, with this constant pressure of every day, having this line that is 40km from Tbilisi. Well, I’ve never heard anyone say that because the Russian tanks are so close to the capital city, we should be less vocal in wanting to joining Europe or NATO, or we should be more something towards the Russian ambitions and aspirations.
Since the war in Ukraine, maybe there is a bit more of this fear of war, that is understandable, and that is also something that is common to the whole of Europe. When you see, day in and day out, on your television screen what is happening in Ukraine, certainly somewhere, you have this sense that you do not want that to be happening in your own country. But the only way of that not happening in our own countries, and there I put Georgia already on the same standing as the other European states, is to be very lucid about Russia, to be uncompromising with Russia, not to be confrontational. That doesn’t mean anything, but to be uncompromising. To know what are the principles that cannot be changed and that cannot be altered because there is the threat of Russia, because there is this constant pressure?
Now, if I come back to Georgia, we have other challenges. We don’t have only the challenges of Russia. We have our own challenges, of a country that has been developing, that has been reforming, but it seems to be an endless effort. And as I said, we had some experiences before that – where we could have gone back to, but too long was this period of the Soviet regime that really changed. First of all, it made us not believe anymore in the state and statehood, and that’s probably the worst crime against the nation, when you have the societies and the people individually, being doubtful be – towards the institution because they were aligned to them. They were not their institutions. So, that’s something that we are gradually rediscovering, and it’s not finished, that we have to respect our institutions. They’re no longer that for foreign country. They’re no longer that of an oppressor. They are ours, and they are ours to reform, they are ours to respect, they are ours to develop, and that’s the process we are in, and I’m sure that we can do much more and much better, but that’s the path we have to follow.
Same thing with justice, the justice system. As I mentioned, the first Republic had a justice system, had Lawyers that were well respected, and in fact, one of the Lawyers that went to immigration was one of the Lawyers that wrote the first European Federal Constitution Project, Mikheil Muskhelishvili. So, we were quite developed on that sense, but that we have lost also, because in the totalitarian regime, in the Soviet regime, there is no place for real justice, and so, we started doubting the Judges and the justice system and the law system. And we have to recover this trust, this confidence, and of course, the fact that the different political forces that have been in place in Georgia over this 30 years have tended to play with that and to use this justice system when it’s one that is easily directed by the political force. It’s not easy to say, “Well, I’m not going to use that, I’m going to rely only on my political attraction and not use instruments that are not those of a democratic country.”
So, there, too, we have a challenge, that we have to overcome, and I think that’s the main challenge, is the justice reform, because it determines everything else. If there is not a strong justice system, then people do not trust the courts, and if they do not trust the courts, then they tend to not trust the economy, to not trust the future, because they don’t know where they can get the justice if there is a need of justice. And the same thing for foreign investment in the country. Foreign private investment will not come to the country if there is no security for the investment, if there is not the assurance that you have a system of justice that will equally treat everybody, foreign or national. So, all that are serious challenges.
What has been my main message to the Georgians now, after we got the candidate status and before we go down this very crucial year that should lead us to the opening of NATO negotiations with the European Union, my message is to show them very clearly that what the European Union is giving us as recommendations, yes, they’re given by the European Union, but in fact, they are exactly the things that we should be wanting for ourselves. That we need, desperately need to transform this country into a full-fledged democracy, European state, with all the guarantees that this implies, and which is the only way to get a country that will develop economically on a sound basis, and that’s the only way to prosperity.
So, not only to the peace that I’ve described, because that’s part of the whole security picture, but it’s also the road to prosperity and to development of the country. So, this challenge, the latter challenge, is in our hands and in nobody’s else. We have received all kinds of advice that we could receive, a lot of support in trying to develop these reforms, but they will not happen as long as we are not ourselves convinced that we are doing it for ourselves. Not to please someone, not because it has been dictated by someone, even if we want very much to get into the European Union, but only if we and all the political forces get convinced that this is what we have to do for our own future, for our children to live in a country the way we have imagined it all the time for very many years.
So, this year will be a determining year. I was saying the same thing last year and probably I would’ve said it many years before, because we live in that situation that everything at every point is essential, is existential. We are not yet on the other side of the line where we can sit down and think that we are in a place where we can securely, each and every one, worry about our own personal future and personal development. No, we are still there where we need to be united. That’s quite difficult to convince the political force in Georgia that this is a necessity. That otherwise we play in the hands of the enemy because they’re more divided, that’s an old recipe that we all know.
So, we need unity. We don’t need to be all the same. We don’t need to share all the ideals or ideologies, but we need to be united on the main thing. That’s why I’m trying to develop a platform of engagement, commitment of the political forces all over the spectrum, on what we want to do, in line with the recommendations, but how we want to implement these recommendations in order to get the best result by the end of the year. And on that road, of course, the elections that we’re going to have are going to be very important, and you are going to have questions, so, I will let you – and I’ve talked too long, right [applause]?
James Nixey
There’s no such thing as talking too long when you are a Head of State. When I’m chairing a round table, I can nudge and offer a red card, but it doesn’t work like that when you’ve be – so, it’s different to the last time we did this together, Madam President. There’s, I’m sure, a great deal of love for Georgia in this room. We seem to want – I suspect we want what you want, that is quite clear. But you’re in Chatham House, so you can expect some tough questions from critical friends, perhaps. I have two, and then I’m going to open it out online and in the audience, and since you roughly divide your remarks into the international scene and the domestic scene, the international challenge and the challenges from within, that’s where my questions will come from.
So, Georgia, you are still a country that is occupied, has been invaded, and yet at the same time, the Government, in contrast to yourself, Madam President, has shown really very little solidarity or evidence support for Ukraine in the past two years. Not – and also, there’s the sanctions element, as well, where there seems to be an element of san – Georgia being involved in some form of sanctions avoidance. So, how do you explain that stance from other parts of the Government? That’s my first question. Can I do a second one, or do you want to answer that one first?
Salomé Zourabichvili
I think…
James Nixey
Yeah, go for it, first one.
Salomé Zourabichvili
…I’d rather answer…
James Nixey
Yeah, no, let’s do it, yeah.
Salomé Zourabichvili
…each one of them. My memory is not good enough to – no, I think it’s important to answer that one. Not that I know the answer…
James Nixey
No.
Salomé Zourabichvili
…to the question that why the Government has this, what I would call an ambiguous position, or has had. Because what I want to note, without necessarily being sure that this is going to last, but as long as it lasts, I have to note it and I have to support it. Which is that since the decision of the European Union, and that’s the miracle, I would say, of these type of decisions, it’s that the rhetoric of the government has suddenly changed. Not only has everybody on the whole spectrum in Georgia become pro-European, completely pro-European, but everybody now is saying, “Well, I was the main factor while we got the” – which is good.
James Nixey
But Ukrainian, pro-Ukrainian?
Salomé Zourabichvili
Pro-Ukrainian, I will come to Ukraine. That’s one thing, and the second thing is that since this decision and since the new change of government and Prime Minister, we see very strange things. Again, don’t ask me to explain. I can…
James Nixey
I am asking.
Salomé Zourabichvili
…present what I’m seeing and the way I interpret it, but I’m not sure that I have the right explanation. We have a new Prime Minister, who was the one that rejected the Charles Michel document, that had the most anti-Western propaganda or rhetoric, at least, over the past year and a half. And suddenly, in – as a new Prime Minister, he goes first to Brussels as a first visit, insisting that it’s very important that Brussels be the first place to visit. He receives, one day after the other, European Ambassadors, to say how important it is that they’re going to implement these nine recommendations. Receives the American Ambassador to say that we need to deepen the relation with our strategic partner, the United States. So, if that is the result of the European decision, I think we have to block on that change and push in that same direction. So, very good that you are now in this very clear position.
With Ukraine, the declarations are we have always supported Ukraine. We have always been in solidarity. Now, there is a request by Ukraine to bring some support in engineering or something, and it’s in the process of being studied by the Government. I cannot say what will be the outcome, but I think that it’s a very good situation that we are going in that direction. I hope it will last. I’m not absolutely – I don’t have the means to be sure that it lasts, but I think that we should be putting pressure so that it cannot change anymore. At the same time, I think that there has to be preparation among the wider political forces in Georgia to be ready in case the Government does not implement fully, or does not implement really, all the nine recommendations. To be saying to the public opinion, “Well, that is what we are going to do” in very clear, concrete terms, and with a very clear calendar, because that will be what the Georgian people will vote upon.
And the last thing I want to say on this issue is that, that might be the reason for the change of rhetoric, of – because the Georgian people, the way I’ve described this long path of Georgia, will never vote for a force – for a political force that will be in dissonance with its strong European will, and they see that now as a very clear perspective. Until now, it was a will. It was going in the right direction, visa liberalisation was very important, but it looked like a very long path. Now, it looks like something that is at hand. That’s what the people felt last year, and they saw now the candidate status, and this year, the elections will be Europe or not Europe. So, everybody better come to terms with that.
James Nixey
I don’t think anybody doubts the will of the Georgian people. I suspect they doubt in the ability and the intentions and motivations of the Government. So, I guess, my second question, which is, yeah, maybe it’s the same answer, but Georgia is known for many things, mostly wonderful things, but its government is also known for endemic, oligarchic, informal power. So, I – in – how do you square that with Georgia’s EU aspirations and its democratic gen – development more generally?
Salomé Zourabichvili
The same thing. I mean, the informal power has also come to some changes because the informal leader has come back into the open.
James Nixey
Sure.
Salomé Zourabichvili
So, that means that there is something that they have to react to. He has come to the open, being now the President – the formal President of the Georgian Dream Party, which means two things, responsibility, which was not the case when – and the necessity to give to the – publicly opinion to the voters, answers on the decisions that are taken. So, during the elections that are to come, that’s what will happen. It will be answerable to the public of the rhetoric, of the decisions, of the success, on that path, which is what the Georgian electorate wants, and on that, I do not have any doubt.
And so, the last thing is that if – and I have that sense that it’s the best thing that can happen to Georgia now, because we have lived through 30 years of one party system during the different regimes, and they all end up in the same way. I won’t go into detail, but that’s what happens when you stay too long in power with one party that covers everything. So, the best thing that can happen, in a way, it’s the Polish model, where nobody is ejected from power, but we have a coalition of forces that are clearly pro-European, and that means the end of oligarchy, because there will not be one power. There might be different oligarchs…
James Nixey
Sure.
Salomé Zourabichvili
…but not one vertical, and that’s, in a way, also the answer to the polarisation, to some extent.
James Nixey
Well, Madam President, you’re in the right country to talk about governments possibly overstaying their welcome, although – but presumably, a lot less European than yours, I have to say. Okay, I must open it out. I’m so sorry. We have 15 – I’ll run over a little bit, but 15 to 20 minutes of questions online and in the audience. So, I’ll take a couple together. Lady, right in front of me, sort of, halfway up, yeah, please. Yes, that’s – as the mic’s coming, which are necessary, so, the online audience can hear.
Dr Christin Nadeau
Yeah.
James Nixey
Thank you.
Dr Christin Nadeau
Hi there, Dr Christin Nadeau, contractor with the US Air Force. Thank you, Madam President, for your eloquent speaking today on the issues that are both internal and external to your country. However, I would ask Madam to look farther east and comment a bit on China and India and how you see their role in your economic development, as well as, addressing China’s aspirations with Taiwan.
James Nixey
Okay, thank you. I’ll take one. Can I – am I allowed to take a couple of – this time?
Salomé Zourabichvili
Yes, you can, if you could…
James Nixey
I can remind you, and I’ve got a pen for you, hang on. And the gentleman, sort of, middle back, yeah, middle on the right. Thank you.
Robert Walter
Thank you very much, Robert Walter, former Member of Parliament, also former leader of the UK delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. Madam President, you spent quite a bit of time talking about Ukraine. You just touched slightly on the election in the United States. There is a very strong possibility that Donald Trump will be re-elected President in November. He and his Republican colleagues in the Congress are being very unhelpful with regard to Ukraine at the present time. If he is elected and he does some appeasement with Putin over Ukraine, what do you fear as far as Georgia is concerned and American support for the sovereignty of Georgia? Is it fear, or is it hope for the best?
Salomé Zourabichvili
Thank you.
James Nixey
China/India and…
Salomé Zourabichvili
Yeah.
James Nixey
…the Ukraine question.
Salomé Zourabichvili
China. China is becoming more active in Georgia. That has happened over the past few years, but it’s more and more active. We have now a strategic partnership. I don’t know what it means, don’t ask me, but – and we also have, just yesterday, received the benediction of having visa-free regime with China. So – but beyond that, China is also active in Georgia in many – on the infrastructure projects, because it’s cheap, but not respecting many of the laws and the way their manpower is, but also because our Western partner are less present. And probably we need more engagement from our Western partners in the big infrastructural projects. Those are more for public money than for private money.
One of them is very important, and that’s an issue I didn’t touch upon, which is the Port of Anaklia, which is very essential because Black Sea security is probably the issue that should concern us all for the future, and Georgian coast on the Black Sea is very essential to Russia not having the exclusivity of the Black Sea co-operation or trade, or whatever happens tomorrow on the Black Sea. And we all know that it has a lot of potential for the future for the relations with Central Asia, that is very, also, attracted to Europe. So, that’s very important that these public investments in those – whether it’s infrastructure, roads and rail, that is also very essential, be considered as strategic investment and not only for private enterprises to come to.
For Trump, first of all, I cannot and will not discuss the elections of another country, especially one that is another strategic partner, I think a major strategic partner for Georgia, and where until now, we have been used, and I want to be confident that it will remain so. That it was a bipartisan issue, the support to Georgia, and I want to remain confident in the fact that Ukraine will remain a bipartisan issue, also, in America. One thing is what happens before elections and the other one is what happens when you are in responsibility, and I think that today, after everything we’ve seen, everything we look at, nobody can trust Putin.
James Nixey
I can’t help but remember, Madam President, that when you were last here, that Barack Obama was about to take power and Georgia seemed to be the only country in the world which actually wanted John McCain to be President of the United States. And you still have a lot of love for him in that country – in your country now. I’ll take a couple more. Max is, sort of, middle left, just here, yeah. If you could – thank you.
Max
Good evening, Madam President. Thank you for your intervention and it’s great to see you touring the world and advocating for Georgia’s cause. I think a lot of us here would know that Georgian Government is not very fond of such activities and try to impeach you for this. I’m not sure whether the Embassy is represented here. I’ve not seen anybody from the Embassy. This is only half a joke. So, I’m wondering what are your – I mean, well, you can maybe tell us, as far as I understand, you’ve spent about €10,000 of your private funding for your trips. Are you self-funded here, and also, if you have any plans for further international activity between now and the end of your term this year? Thank you.
James Nixey
Max is not a Diplomat.
Salomé Zourabichvili
Okay.
James Nixey
Middle back, please. Yeah, yeah, you, sir.
Gary O’Shea
Thank you for taking my question. Gary O’Shea, a friend of Georgia. You mentioned earlier on the nine conditions which have been handed down by the European Union and stressed to you. One of those is the guarantee that in October there will be free, fair and competitive elections. Do you have any concerns that as long as the leader of the opposition, Mr Saakashvili, remains in confinement, in imprisonment, that that condition will not be met? And could you talk a little bit about what the legal remedies are available to you to resolve that and what thought you’ve given to them in recent times?
James Nixey
Thank you, please.
Salomé Zourabichvili
So, I’ll start with the non-diplomatic question. Well, here I was invited. So, I’m very glad and thanks all for that, and yes, I will continue, because I think that it’s a very important year, and it’s very important to have all possible contacts at this time for Georgia. And in fact, early on, before this un-understandable competition, or I don’t know how to call it, started, I had offered, when we were early in the year, to share between all the different responsible institutions, the touring of all 27 capitals because it’s very important to have our arguments presented to all of them. Unfortunately, that was not taken as a possibility. So, yes, Georgia is a small country and it needs as many voices as possible, and I’m one of those.
For the question on the elections, the fear – free and fair elections do not depend on where Saakashvili really is going to be. He’s not a political opponent in jail. He’s not Navalny, to answer directly the question. He’s a Former President that had, during his presidency, many – I don’t know how to call that. I mean, the – what we see now and what we have seen under different regimes, this tendency to autocratic, authoritarian regimes, to violations of human rights in the prisons, all of that we have seen and we have lived under Saakashvili. So, he’s in jail for real reasons. That doesn’t mean that the humanitarian perspective should not be protected, respected, and I’ve been very close monitoring whatever was happening to him in jail.
The question of what can be done, and I agree with you that in reputational terms, it would be much better off if he were somewhere else, and that’s a decision for the Government, but there are different ways in which other countries have solved these issues. There is house arrest, there is extradition, because Ukraine has shown that it’s ready to ask for extradition, although I’m not sure whether it has been done formally. So, these possibilities exist.
For myself, I have only one possibility, that I never comment when outside of the country and I hardly comment within the country, because there are many other people waiting for possibility of pardoning, and if you start explaining or justifying, that is very unfair to other people. So, I do not comment. It’s a moral decision that I will take by myself, and be only myself responsible for, and it’s certainly not something that is, in any way, possible to affect by foreign pressure or by internal pressure.
James Nixey
Fair enough, it does seem to me that everything’s connected, though. Whether…
Salomé Zourabichvili
Everything’s connected, yes.
James Nixey
Yeah, whether it’s Russia and – or the EU or Mikheil Saakashvili’s fate, then everything’s bound up, one affecting the other. I’ll take a couple, but let me extend the last gentleman’s question and just ask a little bit more about the Russian – it’s not me. It’s actually Felix Light online, prospects for the opposition. I mean, this is the last – this is going to be a different election. You’re the last popularly elected President. So, what about the prospects for the opposition in a country which has had difficulty, especially – I mean, I give Georgia all the credit for having overturned – opposition parties have overturned incumbents at the ballot box. That’s extraordinary in the region. Nonetheless, we are seeing democratic regression in – of some sort, in some ways. So, how can you, in some respects, help the opposition? What’s your role in that?
Salomé Zourabichvili
Well, that’s a role. I’m not going to be the Leader of the Opposition…
James Nixey
No.
Salomé Zourabichvili
…if that’s what you’re asking, because some people would like me to take this turn, and I don’t think it would be a reasonable decision. What is the very interesting situation today in view of the elections, is that we have a public opinion and electorate that really – he’s no longer supporting the regime in place with a vast majority. It is disappointed with the – normally so – I would say that, if they’re surprised, that’s democracy after 12 years, you have to lose the majority support. So, there is no longer this majority support for them, neither for the return of the former regime, for the reasons I’ve explained. Nobody wants the return of the National Movement, and if there is one thing that maintains the Georgian dream stronger than it would be otherwise, it is a fear of the return of the National Movement.
But between those two, there is a vast part of the electorate, somewhere around 50%, that doesn’t want either one, but is looking to see whether the opposition parties can have their act together. And so, they need to be told that they have to put their act together, which doesn’t mean, necessarily, that they have to unite in the form of one list or one party, because that’s very irrealistic, and not good for the future of multipartisan. But they have to put their act together to know how they present to the public opinion something that looks like a victorious formula, and that’s their job. My job is to tell them that they have to unite, not between themselves, but on a platform, on a European platform, and make those elections an election about Europe, and then things will be clear.
James Nixey
Are you okay to take – as we started a little late, would you allow for two more questions?
Salomé Zourabichvili
Yes.
James Nixey
I think that’s just about time. I’ll take them right together. They happen to be sitting together. It’s a type of coincidence, Michael Pugh and Tamara Khulordava, in the front row here, please.
Tamara Khulordava
Ladies first?
James Nixey
Sure.
Tamara Khulordava
Okay, then. I want to ask…
James Nixey
No, just your microphone.
Tamara Khulordava
Thank you. I want to ask you about the role of the Georgian Church, because it has been seen by some to be – assessed somehow to be Russian soft power, gaining more and more credence in the Georgian Church. The Patriarch is very old, and there is a lot of fear that when he passes away, and may that not happen quickly, there will be possibly a pro-Russian tendency in the Georgian Church, that does still have a lot of influence in Georgian society.
James Nixey
I thought there already was, but okay. Michael?
Michael Pugh
Thank you, Michael Pugh. Gamarjoba, Madam President. I’d like to ask about the Russians in Georgia. We understand a lot of Russians have come into Georgia. I don’t know where their loyalty lies, and I was wondering whether you could tell us a little bit about the relationship of Russians in Georgia to Georgians, and Georgians to Russians in Georgia, and perhaps that – finish with some reflections as to whether this is an opportunity for Georgia?
James Nixey
Right, good questions to finish on.
Salomé Zourabichvili
The church, it’s a very complex situation that is very much – the reason of it is the weakness of the patriarch today that has maintained the path of this church very firmly. I think that the Orthodox Church, like in any other Orthodox country, is very close to the power and tends to follow the changes of accent, I would say, and nuances. So, I hope that the church will follow in this case, also, the pro-Western rhetoric. And since I’m an optimist and I’m confident in Georgia’s resilience, I also hope that the Georgian Church will manage to elect a pro-Georgian and pro-European patriarch, and not a pro-Russian one.
James Nixey
Okay, and on the – yeah.
Salomé Zourabichvili
For the Russians in Georgia, it’s a very complex, also, issue because those Russians are now about 70,000, after having been more than a 100. Some of them have left to different countries, but those that stay, stay in very easy conditions because they have a visa for one year. They can go to another country and come back and have a renewed visa for one year. So, practically, they can establish themselves, but they do not learn Georgian. They do not have much empathy for Georgia to recognise that this is an occupied country in all – in 20% of its territories. That it needs to hear from Russians that they do not approve of the imperialist trends that continue to exist in Russia. That they disapprove the war in Ukraine. All of that, they do not say, or they say it very softly, sometimes, and they are composing coherent community that does not mix up very much with the Georgians, either.
So, they are in form, some – I wouldn’t say fifth column, but – because they’re not pro-Putin as such, and they’re not necessarily agents of Putin. There might be some among, we cannot – nobody has controlled them. So, we do not exert much control. The Government was very happy because, thanks to the coming in of these Russians, we presented good economic figures over the past two years. But that’s in decline because once they are here, they do not bring us in so much money. So, it’s a vulnerability. Among those, there are very good young people, very talented in technology, in computer science, that might be a good adjunction to the Georgian economy.
So, there are some positive forces, but all in all, it needs to be controlled more than we control it. It needs to be regulated. They need to contribute to the economy more, and they need to understand that when you live in a country, even if it’s a country that was in the past, colonised by your country, you have to respect the people of that country, their culture, their language, their identity, and you should not put your children in Russian schools, but in Georgian schools, so that they become part of the country. So, it’s a responsibility, also, for the authorities. But that is pointing out to a very serious problem, that we still have to see a dissenting force in Russia that clearly rejects Russian imperialism as a force of the future, which we have not seen yet under any of the different regimes.
James Nixey
Madam President, that is all we have time for. I’m so sorry, we could have gone on for another couple of hours, I know. Let me just say [applause], in closing, that I have tracked your career since you were Geor – France’s Ambassador to Georgia in the early 2000s. [Une Fampoux Dupee – 66:54] was seminal reading for me when I was younger. You granted me a research interview. So, I personally, but also on behalf of Chatham House, Liberal International and the hundreds online and in this room, thank you very much. We do want what you want for Georgia, so clearly. So, we wish you all the very best for the future [applause].
Salomé Zourabichvili
And…
James Nixey
Thank you.
Salomé Zourabichvili
If I could have the - last word is for me. So, next time I come, it will not be Georgian’s European opportunity. It will be Georgian’s European reality.
James Nixey
That’s okay. I’ll hold you to it.
