Webinar: In Conversation with HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri: Candidate for Director-General of the World Trade Organization

Adel Hamaizia

For those who are further East than London, where I am, here, today. My name is Adel Hamaizia. I’m Associate Fellow at the Chatham House MENA Programme. I’m delighted to welcome you all to today’s centenary series webinar, a conversation with His Excellency Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri, candidate for Director-General of the WTO.

Now, before introducing our speaker, some housekeeping and a brief event intro, if I may. The event will be held on the record, is being recorded and will be posted online in the coming days. Audience members may tweet using the #CHEvents, an area I’m less familiar with, nonetheless. I ask attendees to submit questions throughout the event using the Q&A question – ‘Q&A’ function, rather, which you should see just at the bottom of your screens, for those new to Zoom, as neither the ‘chat’ nor ‘raise hand’ functions will be supported. This morning’s format will go like this, Minister Al-Tuwaijri and I will have a conversation for some 15/20 minutes, followed by a 20-minute Q&A with attendees.

So, to tell you just a little bit about Chatham House’s role in all of this, we’ve worked since its founding in 1920, exactly 100 years ago, to support and help to develop the rules-based multilateral economic system and this event is part of a centenary series, supported by colleagues at GEF and Global Trade Policy Forum, in which dialogues with all the WTO candidates have been scheduled to better understand their stance on key challenges in world trade and what they bring to the table.

So, in exactly a fortnight to the day, yes, exactly a fortnight to the day, on the 31st of August, incumbent Roberto Azevêdo will be formally stepping down as Director-General of the WTO, the World Trade Organization and he’s, of course, resigning or he’s leaving his post a year early. With the selection process underway for the next DG, we have eight candidates, nominated by national governments from around the world. These include, and I’m going to go from West to East, Mexico, the UK, and Nigeria, Kenya, Egypt, Korea, and Moldova, I’m going and coming back, and Saudi Arabia, last but not least. And we have the pleasure of hosting, as I say, the Saudi candidate this morning.

Essentially, we start at the quarter final stage, so last eight, for those familiar with the Champions League over the weekend. We start with eight candidates, and rather than becoming four for a semi, we – semi-final, we go to five and then onto our final two. So, at macro level, the next DG will lead this important global organisation as it grapples with significant challenges that speak to elements of deep globalisation, for one. So, here I’m thinking rising protectionism, think speeding up changing in global supplier chains, onshoring and nearshoring, growing trade tensions, think US-China in a decoupling, Beijing-Washington frictions continue on. And, of course, the once in a lifetime, unprecedented global economic fallout of COVID-19, which we are all facing and partly the reason why we are conducting this event on Zoom today.

At organisation level, a panoply of challenges, including issues around core functions and the WTO’s Appellate Body crisis await their next DG. Addressing and/or resolving many of these challenges, within the framework of a member driven consensus, I emphasise consensus, based organisation, will be no mean feat when you have over 160 members. Members will decide when thinking about who the next DG should be, what qualifications they should have, skills, competencies. Countries will think developed versus developed countries – developed versus developing, rather, geographic diversity, gender diversity, perhaps, and whether they should have, perhaps, a trade background or more of a political background to get things done. And finally, of course, their vision for reform, and I think there’s no question that reform is top of the agenda for this critical organization going forward. I must note, on the geographical point, that we’ve never had a DG at WTO or at its predecessor, GATT, from the Arab world or the African Continent.

Now, to introduce Minister Mohammad Al-Tuwaijri, who had had an illustrious career, which I described, I was thinking about this earlier on, four Ps, and I hope you won’t mind me framing it like this, but Pilot, private sector, policy and public service. So, Minister Tuwaijri started out in the Saudi Airforce as a Pilot, he then landed into the private sector, in banking, with Saudi British Bank, later a CEO and Managing Director at JP Morgan Saudi Arabia, then as Group Managing Director and CEO at HSBC, covering the MENA, Middle East and North Africa region, which included Turkey. He then transitioned, more recently, in 2016, to lead the bulwark Anchor Ministry, that is the Ministry of Economy and Planning, which oversees Saudi Arabia’s Diversification and Transformation Programme Division 2030, something that here at the Chatham House MENA Programme we have looked at in-depth over the years. Minister Tuwaijri is also engaged very closely, as part of his mandate at the Ministry on the G20 agenda and earlier this year, Minister Tuwaijri became Advisor at the Royal Court in Saudi Arabia.

So, now turning to you, Mohammad, on first name terms, a big picture question to begin with, if I may. So, really thinking about, sort of, an overarching philosophy, we’d be grateful if you could share what your overarching philosophy for international trade is, and to that end, if you could share your vision of the future role of the WTO as a truly 21st Century organisation. Mohammad, please? If you could just take yourself of mute, Mohammad, than you.

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Adel, thank you very much for this introduction and I hope you and everyone on this call is healthy and coping with the pandemic. So, in your introduction you’ve mentioned the timing. I think it’s unprecedented, extremely difficult. I think the recovery of COVID-19 will be different for each country, for each region. You know, I’ve looked at all the stimulus packages, for example, that initiated by many countries. I’ve designed one myself for the Kingdom and, you know, there are a lot of question marks or is this enough, do we need to do more, what is the nature of recovery? How it impacts SMEs, sustainability and all these question marks is the bigger umbrella. Which is, to me, also, very important for the private sector, because this unpredictability, uncertainty would make it very difficult to plan and invest for the private sector, so the timing is super critical.

And, you know, when I look at the WTO and really think what is needed, the word reform is right and correct, but actually, what is the necessary reforms, is more of a question, and what kind of leadership is wanted at this point of time? And, you know, if I wear the hat of members trying to select, they will probably say, you know, the one extreme is to have a WTO insider who knows how negotiation works, you know, what are the issues. The other view, the other extreme view is to have someone with a really fresh eye into this environment of difficulties, uncertainty. You know, I would rather have someone who sits in-between, I’ve said this in my statement, called of a hybrid person, who really understand trade, comes with a 360 view, but also, have the political outreach and the policy framework. So, timing, what’s needed is definitely the thing.

I also think trade is part of total, it’s – you cannot see it alone. You must see, also, everything else around it. When we talk about the digital economy and digital trade, this is a game changer and it will impact everything, including the global trade. So, you cannot see it separately from every economic situation globally, you cannot see it from the investment – away from the investment landscape. You cannot see it away from the SMEs, more a country’s impact. So, that’s the second thing, it’s part of the total, it’s important and vital, like a vein.

Third, you know, the organisation itself, I mean, 25 years. We know the last few years, you know, nothing really happened, in terms of successful negotiation, or going to the dispute, to solve issues. There are also a lot of challenges around notification and transparency, and you’ve mentioned the tensions globally. I think, also, understanding this environment of geopolitics, tension, design issues within the organisation, it’s very necessary to be able to really bring the organisation back to its true North, go back to the principles. For example, in the G20, this year we’ve led a major initiative, called the Riyadh Track, around the necessary reforms of WTO. The objective was to collect and gather political will and support behind it and I think this is very important, this is a major step towards implementing the necessary reforms. So, timing, what’s needed, leadership, holistic integrated solution, is how I think the way forwards.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you, Mohammad, and to, sort of, follow on, on the point on leadership, could you tell us, sort of, moving away from the ball to the man, to continue on a football metaphor, could you tell us a little bit about the toolkit and strengths that you’d bring to the DG position? And, more specifically, I know you’re very performance focused and KPI focused, could you tell us what your USP would be that differentiates you from, of course, the other seven candidates?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

It is what’s needed, honestly, and I know in all my career, all my life, since I started, both in, well, private sector and in the policy and ministerial job, I’ve always been held accountable. So, I think the next Director-General should be held accountable for his ability to facilitate, ability to deliver, ability to find common ground, ability to reach out. So, my view around, you know, the reach out is it should be a programme. This is not about really going and see capitals, it’s about connecting dots, it’s about really conveying views between bigger player, smaller players, etc. So, I want to do this in a way that can be measured, the outcome can be measured constantly, religiously, all the time. So, that’s something I have done before, you know, people can refer to the experience.

Second, currently, and I still manage one of the most aggressive, ambitious transformations in recent history, multiple stakeholders, a lot of conflicted priorities, very ambitious targets, there is a direction. So, I’m in the middle of the current live transformation. Also, the G20 agenda, where we’ve led this year, 2020, a lot of globally economic related issues, including the WTO reform. So, what I like to bring and hopefully achieve within the WTO, as a leadership style, is consistency of delivery, and you mentioned KPI accountability, etc., but I also want to look at the Director-General office. One of the things that I’ve mentioned in my statement is having a delivery unit.

Adel Hamaizia

Delivery.

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

That delivery unit can provide technical assistance to all those in need, but also measure how do we give this assistance, how frequent, and what’s the impact? And really, I want to eliminate, so my leadership style is to eliminate any issues, to find out if it’s really a political issue, then we can deal with it. Then the Director-General can do a reach out and talk to people. One of the things I want to do immediately is a deep dive MRI of the root causes of everything, you know, the design. We mentioned negotiation process and negotiation functions, disputes management, the Appellate Body, procedural, and the, you know, interpretation of the rules, transparency challenges. So, we really need to go deep and say why? And then we can go to the how, which is fixing all these issues. So, I hope I can use my 360 holistic view, with a proven track record of delivery, to bring that culture to the WTO.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much, and you mentioned the Appellate Body and I just want to come back to that. So, for the benefit of our viewers and attendees, so, in December 2019 the Appellate Body, considered the Crown Jewels of the WTO, lost its quorum of the three members, which is the minimum number required to review appeals from members; the US continues to express its concerns. So, you mentioned this MRI diagnostics. From afar, though, could you tell us a little bit about, sort of, your three – the three most important challenges, in your opinion, that the WTO is facing as an organisation? And any remedies, solutions are welcome, but maybe we’ll push you on that at a later stage.

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Well, that’s a great question. I think, you know, the design, whether it’s the negotiation function and the dispute settlement and, you know, the notification and monitoring, they’re very much interrelated. But when I say root cause, I always refer to the negotiation. I think the – this is the beginning. This is the start. If that process can be enhanced, improved, we can regain trust. If we can design a performance where we can read the early warning signs, you know, early negotiation cannot go to a cliff immediately. There are a lot of early warning signs that things aren’t moving in the right direction. So, how can the Director-General really help and be really engaged with the negotiations, so that doesn’t happen, and issues can be resolved in the negotiation? So, that’s the kind of things I like to do in the MRI.

When we talk about transparency, we need to understand why people are not transparent enough to the WTO standing and we need to, again, eliminate any root causes, whether it’s technical or otherwise. And if it’s technical, we need to have the dedicated people who can deliver this technical help to members who need it. And then, if, you know, the issue is really political, you know, and the rules need to be readdressed of the organisation, and you know, the principles of the organisation need to be reminded to – we need to address that, as well. So, my whole concept of the first action is around, ask the tough questions, before getting into the how to fix it. Because like any Physician, for example, you need to think mind, body and spirit.

The mind is probably the process and the interpretation. The body is the design of the organisation and the spirit is this journey towards multilateral, effective multilateral trading system, prosperity, you know, fighting poverty, sustainability. So, I will have this holistic view in mind in the beginning, because otherwise, if we want to really tackle a single issue, then I can assure you we will be talking about the same challenges again in a few years’ time.

Yes, we can make some success and prove that things can be done, initially, to just regain the confidence and the trust in the organisation, but unless this is a holistic integrated solution, I think we will be talking about it again in the future.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much, Mohammad, and just to push you on and – push you on that and, sort of, think a little bit more pragmatically and to put pressure on you, what does a DG Al-Tuwaijri look like in the first 100 days? What would you expect to do, what would you expect to engage in? I read your statement to the guys in Geneva just, I think it was exactly the 17th of last month, as today. You mentioned a delivery unit, but you also suggested the idea of moving away from a ministerial – an MC, a ministerial conference, every two years and, you know, bringing it up to speed and having more engagement on an annual basis. So, tell us, what does this first 100 days look like?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

So, back to the second point you mentioned around the ministerial conference, you know, things that are happening every day now, the intensity of events is happening on a very regular, intensive way. I don’t think meeting every two years will help the organisation, the members, or actually, tackling the issues, so, I think more frequent meeting. But the question is not that. The question is how do you prepare for it, how do we make it more impactful and how do we measure the outcome and bring it back to the organisation?

So, one of the things I want to do is have the voice of the private sector, think tanks, thought leaders within the ministerial conference. Let people tell the conference what they think of the organisation, World Trade, and let them hear. This is not about meeting and delivering statements, this is way beyond. So, what I like to do with my first 100 days is definitely engage with every members, take everything as a solution that was done in the past. I know, for example, the David Walker suggestion around, you know, fixing the Appellate Body, the European Union had a temporary solution, but there are great ideas around. I want to take those and see why it was not implemented, what are the root causes?

So, I worry – and I have got to engage, of course, with the Director-General Secretariat office. There I think there is a huge potential for this machine to help members. I think, you know, we can look into the design, also, the culture, how we can really help and reach out, and then, also, complete this deep dive MRI, you know. By itself, if you really ask the tough questions and if you really engage and listen and, you know, do the right thing, that exercise 100 days will definitely help understand the root causes of the problems.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you, Mohammad. Now, we’ve discussed some of the frictions, you know, moving into this, what we call a multipolar world and the frictions seem endless at the moment. But if there was, sort of, one specific topic that you could bring member states to rally around, a unifying force, a unifying issue, rather, what would your clarion call, your call to action, be? What is a topic that you envisage, you know, you could bring the Beijings, the Washingtons and Brussels and everybody else around a table to surely agree upon? What would that look like and what would that be?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Look, I am, in many ways, optimistic. I really like to think positively about it. I think COVID-19 will teach us all how to work together. So, if I can build the right scenarios with the right impact analysis and convey this to members, including the US and China, and what it really means for sustainability, and really deliver those messages and allow people to listen and engage, I think that’s a big success. Because if we really collect our thoughts together around how severe the outcome might be and what is the relevance of the organisation at this point of time, I think that’s a great first step. But that also needs a lot of depth, in terms of designing those scenarios. As I said initially, this is beyond trade, this is much bigger, but connect the dots and ask people to really listen and find common ground. If I can do that, I think that’s a big ticket initially.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you, thanks very much. On the point of politics, and I’m sorry, but I have to emphasise this point, you know, the negotiation, the, sort of, emotional intelligence, manoeuvring navigation, you know, political acumen, will be certainly incredibly important for the next DG. Now, on the politics of trade geo-economics and more specifically, of course, the two largest economies, Beijing and Washington, and their trade frictions, I want to quote US Trade Representative, Robert Lighthizer, who last month stated, and I quote, “I think we need a Director-General that understands that an extremely large state run economy cannot be disciplined under the current WTO Rules.” What do you say to that, Mohammad?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Well, look, I think both are great countries, in terms of trade, they’re very big, they’re both members, and that’s why I’ve just said a few minutes ago, “Negotiation is the root cause of all the issues.” If we can regain trust – the fact that the US and China managed phase one with all, you know, its details, I think it’s encouraging through negotiations. So, they’ve managed to talk and achieve something. I think that’s why we go back to the negotiation and members can really discuss issues there. This is a member driven organisation. The spirit of multilateral trading system is vital for the whole economy. It matters to companies, in both the US and China and, you know, we should look at the overall impact of big disputes like this. But I will definitely encourage both and work with both to really go back to the negotiation within the WTO.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much. Now, earlier on, you mentioned trade as, you know, should be thought of within an integrated framework, “investment, development” and so on and so forth. Now, thinking about the trade development nexus, how do you plan to further incorporate the SDGs, particularly here, I emphasise, into the WTO’s mandate, thinking, reform, your philosophy, and what does a comprehensive development agenda look like? And just to give a very small example, so SDG3, “Good health and wellbeing”, when thinking about the TRIPS Agreement, which, you know, recently entered into force and – or the amendment, rather, the measure will make it easier for developing countries to have a secure legal pathway to access affordable medicines within a framework, of course, that the pandemic and the COVID-19. So, what does this trade development nexus look like to you?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

First of all, I was privileged to be in charge of implementing the SDGs in the Kingdom. So, I’ve worked very closely with the UN and every stakeholder. I’m a great believer and I think it’s very important. However, you know, we need to also probably have some unified definitions, some refreshed thoughts, around it. I know there is a committee within the WTO looking at some of the issues related to SDGs and I know many of the members are very much keen and engaged around those topics. So, you know, tapping into the SDG agenda is something can be put on fast track to help members and help the organisation achieve objectives.

But also, back to my philosophy around how do we measure this progress? You know, it’s very easy to say we will implement, we will jump into this initiative, we will do that, we will have a committee. This is very easy to say, but how do we actually measure progress? The thing I found, for example, when we implemented the SDGs in the Kingdom, there was, again, these very broad statements. The only way we have managed to succeed is to map those SDGs to the Vision 2030 objectives and when there was connecting of the dots, people start to react, people start to believe, people start to do and deliver. So, we probably need to do the same in the WTO, at least from a management, a leadership, point of view. We need to see the value and we need to measure the progress and we need to, basically, continuously follow-up, engagement is key, and I will be very much interested to do this.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much, Mohammad. I think the trade development dimension will be something that we’ll be looking to keeping in mind, of course, debt issues and debt growth, both in developed and developing countries.

We have a coun – we have a few questions from our attendees. I don’t want to hog, though I could go on for a while. We have a question from Hamed Saleh. I’m not sure if we can bring him up on the mic. If not, I can speak to his question. I’ll just double check now. So, Hamed, would you like to come in and ask your question, Hamed Saleh, if you could give us your name, affiliation and question, please? [Pause] No worries, I’ll read it out for him. So, it’s a, sort of, more regional question about – and in terms of blocks. So, Hamed asked, “Do you have any support from the League of Arab States, and do you think that your candidacy, with the Egyptian candidate for this position also in place, makes the chance to elect a person from MENA region more difficult?” And any thoughts on that?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Look, I’m reaching out to everybody, I’m telling my story to everybody and I know the Egyptian candidate, he’s a very capable person. I think what’s important is what the organisation need at this point of time. It’s not about X or Y, it’s what’s really needed, and I would argue, again, that what’s needed at this point of time is leadership. It’s the political reach out capability. It is the ability to actually go and see Europeans, China, the US, with an open mind, with the objective of finding common ground. It’s the ability to deliver solutions. It’s the ability of, you know, having in mind the holistic view of small members, developing, developed and, you know, be able to really implement a holistic integrated agenda for the WTO, that’s what’s needed. So, you know, I’m not going to really comment on who said what through the process. This is an integrated – this is an, you know, a process with a lot of integrity. To the WTO, I have a great respect for it, and I wish Hamid, also, the best of luck.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much. We’ll move onto another question from Haitham Rashid, a slightly bigger picture question, and I don’t know, again, if we could get Haitham to come in and share his question live. And if you could give us your name and affiliation, Haitham?

Haitham Rashid

Thank you, Adel. Hopefully, you can hear me okay.

Adel Hamaizia

We can.

Haitham Rashid

[Mother tongue] Your Excellency, for some very insightful comments. My question is relating to deglobalisation. I think it’s a trend that we’ve obviously seen over the last few years has really, sort of, taken hold and, you know, nationalist agendas and really just, you know, in many different aspects of life. And COVID, in some ways, has accelerated that kind of nationalist, protectionist, approach. What do you think are the best steps that you can take as Director-General of the WTO to address that broader theme? How do you think that the WTO can do that, at a time, especially, of course, where the WTO, you know, in some ways, one could argue, is becoming less influential because of that very theme? What’s your thoughts there, thank you?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Thank you very much.

Adel Hamaizia

Mohammad, sorry, may I just jump on that and, sort of, complicate the question a little bit more, if I may? Keeping in mind some of the protectionist, sort of, policies and actions that we’ve seen during COVID and likely to see in a post-pandemic space, on the deglobalisation argument Haitham mentions and refers to, export restriction measures, subsidies which are likely, going forward, you know, how does this all look like and does make the WTO even more relevant, would you say? So, sort of, grouping those together, if you may?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

First of all, personally, I understand when people panic, I do understand. This is a huge shock to everybody and, you know, the priority was to protect local citizens, local economies, I do understand that, and I sympathise. Because the shock was huge and is still very huge. We may have another round of the pandemic. A lot of people say that, and we still don’t know the time it will take us to recover and how will we recover? So, my open mind is saying, I understand how people panicked and, you know, came up with all these policies, protectionism and subsidies and the rest. However, I also think there is a huge opportunity here. As I’ve said before, I think every crisis will teach us something and the initiation of the WTO itself and GATT before, was based on, you know, a lot of uncertainty and crisis in the world. People needed a solution.

So, yes, I do believe that this is an opportunity for the WTO to be more relevant and the question is how, you know? We need to, basically, do an impact analysis of COVID, of all these policies and approach people with an agenda that can be measured and assessed in a very methodological scientific way. So, as Director-General, I think this is definitely one of the things I like to do, to bring relevance, direction, back to the principles and think of sustainability, think of the original goals that members have agreed to in the first place. So, there is a panic and there is an opportunity, I do agree.

Second, I think the WTO is still needed and, you know, we’ve seen that in the G20 discussions and negotiations through the Riyadh Track. We’ve talked about reforms and the question is whether the form – these three forms or reform ideas are doable and doable on time, before, you know, things are getting worse. So, speed of the reforms and, you know, the way it’s delivered, is very, very important. So, I think the more we delay the reforms, the more your question becomes difficult. So, we need to probably act two years ago, not now, or three years ago. However, it is what it is. So, the speed and the importance of the WTO as the only, you know, entity in the world who’s in charge of the issue.

Third, I think, you know, there are so many issues, so many things that can be resolved, within the current situation, that can really bring back trust and really bring back confidence to the organization and when that’s done, I think people will start to go back to the negotiations. So, the more we do this evidence-based delivery, back within the WTO design, the more we are successful to convince the community that things can be done and achieved within the WTO. So, I am optimistic that, you know, we can deliver some of that initially, but let’s not forget the ultimate journey, the landing zone. Where – also, we have to have this in mind, where do you want to see the multilateral trading system, you know, how do we actually look at the solutions that we’re implementing? Plurilateral, how do we encourage people to join some of these plurilateral solutions and really move towards the journey and find the landing zone working with members?

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much, Haitham, for your question and thank you for the solid response from Mohammad. I’d like now – I’d now like to move to James. James Tudor-White, would you like to come in?

James Tudor-White

Good morn…

Adel Hamaizia

Name and affiliation, James?

James Tudor-White

Good morning, Your Excellency. My name is James Tudor-White and I’m a student at the University of Birmingham.

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Morning, James.

James Tudor-White

Yes, you have focused on enhancing regional and international co-operation to promote trade and the integration of SMEs into the local…

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

I’m sorry…

Adel Hamaizia

James, we can’t…

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

…James…

Adel Hamaizia

…hear you too well.

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

…I can’t hear you.

Adel Hamaizia

James, we can’t hear you too well, James.

James Tudor-White

Hello, can you hear me now?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Yes.

Adel Hamaizia

We can, yes.

James Tudor-White

Okay, throughout your career, Your Excellency, you have focused on enhancing regional and international co-operation to promote trade and the integration of SMEs into the local [audio cuts out – 33:39]. You have also been a strong advocate for UN Sustainable Development…

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

I…

Adel Hamaizia

James…

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

…can’t hear you.

Adel Hamaizia

…you keep disappearing. We’ll give you once last chance, James, if you could come, maybe, closer to the mic, if that’s the issue? I’ll ask the question on his behalf. He was, sort of, pushing you on UNCTAD’s estimation that we, you know, we’re facing the biggest contraction since the 2008 financial crisis and coronavirus has, of course, led to and provided a justification for the states to pursue a more insular approach here. We’re thinking about domestication of value chains and so on and so forth. So, “What, in your opinion, are the most important measures to kickstart the global economy, promote free trade and dismantle barriers and what would this look like in a position?” So, you’ve mentioned some of these, but maybe one or two concrete policy areas that you could touch upon for us?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Look, I think the global economy have so many great initiatives, so many great institutions. I think the WTO should be a part of that, to join everyone else with the great ideas. You know, I’ve mentioned the voice of the private sector, I’ve mentioned think tanks, other international institutions. I think that engagement, by itself, will help the WTO to be what it should be and also, exchange those views with the rest of the world. So, this is one of my first complete actions, to really develop this engagement on a very practical way.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much. Earlier in the conversation you’d alluded to digital trade. Now, it’d be great if you could say a little bit about the role of digital trade and eCommerce and tell us, it seems to me, perhaps, that the WTO isn’t fit for purpose in – at its current juncture in addressing some of these issues. What are your thoughts, views, on these key areas going forward, you know, the digitalisation right across both developed and developing world, continue on – continue to grow, comments, please?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Look, I think in all – I looked at probably what is the root cause of why the WTO haven’t really coped and been fit for purpose for this particular – it’s the lack of definition of a universal, you know, definition of digital trade, what is it, really? What it means and how do you look at it’s not only about, you know, trading services and good. This is way beyond, there is an element of transportation, insurance and a whole ecosystem around it. So, the lack of a universal definition and the lack of understanding the whole of the digital trade, is probably the root cause at this – this is not to be – need to be really further analysed through the MRI.

I was also a bit surprised to see, you know, this very important game changer, not having the right focus and attention of the WTO, although it was trending years ago. It was not like a surprise, we could see it, it’s coming. So, one of my issues and, you know, hopefully solutions, is to have this early warning system within the WTO to identify trends, to identify themes that’s taking place in the world and really be proactive. I would say, argue, even COVID-19, if you ask me, we had COVID-1 in Saudi Arabia 2015, if you ask me will this come again? Yes. So, building those scenarios and really having the right kits, engaging with members to really understand the impact and be prepared, is a key thing.

So, specifically on digital trade, I really think it’s a game changer. I really think it’s going to change the whole landscape and I really think we need to really look at the rules that governs the global trade. And I know there has been some solutions and ideas discussed within the organisation, but that’s one of the refresh buttons we need to do immediately.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you very much for that answer. I think we’re all looking to listen. Even digitalisation within healthcare is going to grow leaps and bounds.

I’d now like to go to Stephen Andrews, who has a specific question about Vision 2030 and your incentive structure for moving away from Riyadh, to Geneva. Stephen, name and affiliation, please?

Stephen Andrews

Thank you very much. My name is Stephen Andrews and I’m now an Independent Consultant but was Defence Attaché in Beirut up until 20,000 – 2009 and spent subsequent time in Saudi Arabia on various programmes. My question is quite simple, really, the implementation of Vision 2030 is vital to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Is now the time to be leaving the programme to take up a new role, given the likely disturbance to that programme that your – the change your leaving might cause?

Adel Hamaizia

Please.

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Sure, first of all, thank you for your question. I think, you know, the Kingdom have put an institutional framework around delivery. We have, for example, 11 dedicated programme, chaired by very capable people. I now Chair the National Transformation Programme, but I have a very capable team, also, who will definitely continue to deliver. So, there is an institutional framework around performance. [Inaudible – 39:26], for example, is the entity who measure performance for 480 governments. We have established the right governance body and so on and so forth. So, one person or the other doesn’t really change the institutional delivery of the Kingdom.

Second, I think after five years of implementation of Vision 2030, the momentum is now very strong. There has been a lot of consistency, transparency and, you know, the private sector is now much better engaged. There are new sectors, that’s very encouraging. I was looking at the occupancy of hotels across the Kingdom yesterday and in many areas, it’s 100%. So, people actually choose to, you know, go on local tourism in different parts of the Kingdom. That is also a game changer and, you know, Vision 2030 was behind opening of the new sectors to diversify the economy.

Third, I think, again, if I am lucky and get successful in this candidacy, I am coming from a developing country, we have always had great interest in Africa, in smaller countries. Saudi Fund for Development, for many decades, have been outreaching to countries and, you know, Presidency of the G20 and our great intention to really have the necessary reforms, world prosperity, one of Vision 2030 objectives is to connect three continents: Europe, Africa and Asia. I hope having, you know, the seat will also help the global community and, you know, help in delivery, bring in some of these practices that was recent to the WTO, use my private sector depth and experience, you know, into the WTO. So, you know, let’s all wish the WTO the best of luck in their choice and in the next DG, but also, focus on what’s need to be done. That is what really matters, what’s need to be done in the next phase of this very critical time.

Adel Hamaizia

Thanks very much to Mohammad. Now, we have a – and brace yourself for a very controversial question. This comes from Vivian Nereim at Bloomberg, who’s asked me to read her question, and it speaks to something high on the news cycle at the moment and it speaks to the normalisation of relations between UAE and Israel, which has opened new avenues for trade in the Middle East. Now, she’s dressed this question up in economics, but it’s highly political, I must warn, and the question is, “Would Saudi Arabia – what is Saudi Arabia’s stance on this normalisation, vis-à-vis opening up a degree of trade with Israel, and do you see other Gulf nations following suit?”

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

First of all, that’s a sovereign decision for the UAE and it’s entirely their call. You know, Saudi Arabia, during King Abdullah times, have put a proposal on the table and, you know, it’s very solid. So, that’s our position and what we’ve said a few years ago remains the position today. I’m not the right person to comment on diplomacy and foreign policy at this point of time, but again, we have a very clear idea on two state countries and, you know, this is an UAE sovereign decision, period.

Adel Hamaizia

Great, thank you, Mohammad, and we – I think the that the DG will be mired in politics from head to toe once he or she arrives in Geneva soon, quite soon. Before we thank our attendees and thank you for being a wonderful participant, I’d be grateful if, maybe, just thinking of a, sort of, elevator pitch or, sort of, your departure message, you know, what is it that you want to tell members around the world as to why the next Director-General should be Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri?

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

I will tell them if you really want to see change and really are keen to make progress, and if you are really determined that the WTO should be and must be the only entity in the world that governs global trade, please think of the quality of leadership that can deliver. It’s a member driven organisation; I do respect that. What I bring to the table is this integrated, holistic, dynamic approach of leadership that’s focused on performance and delivery. Unless that’s done, I don’t think anybody can really make an impact and also, unless I am held accountable, myself, I want members to measure my own performance, then, you know, we’ll have an issue. I like to be really questioned, challenged and measure my facilitation. When people say I’m a “neutral facilitator”, thank you very much. How? How are you going to help me as a member? When people say, “I will listen to you,” thank you very much, they are basics, but how? What is that mean to me as a member? I come with a deep, you know, practical experience around achieving results, and this is the only environment I know, and I hope I can make a difference to the WTO, through its members.

Adel Hamaizia

Thank you, Mohammad. On that note, I would like to thank our attendees from all around the world. I’d like to thank the Chatham House MENA Programme Team, the Chatham House GEF, the Chatham House Trade Policy Forum and our Events Team for making this happen. And last, but not least, I’d like to thank His Excellency Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri, and wishing him the best of luck for his candidacy, as well as the other candidates, and we look forward to continuing the conversation in due course.

The last note I’d just like to mention, just to re-emphasise that this recording will be going online in the coming days and we still have a couple of candidates that we will be interviewing, colleagues will be interviewing in due course. Again, thank you very much to everybody, have a wonderful week. Thank you, again, Mohammad.

HE Mohammad Maziad Al-Tuwaijri

Shukraan, thank you very much.

Adel Hamaizia

Shukraan, take care, thank you.