In conversation with Edi Rama, prime minister of Albania

Bronwen Maddox

Good afternoon, a very warm welcome to Chatham House. I’m Bronwen Maddox, the Director, and a very warm welcome to those of you online, as well. I’m very, very glad to welcome you to Chatham House, Prime Minister Edi Rama, former Mayor of Tirana, arriving as Albania is very much in discussion, and there’s all kinds of things we might talk about. We’ve put as the sub-headline of this discussion, when it was first raised, the migration to Russia and China, how Albania’s responding to the geopolitical challenges of today. Well, that’s going to take us round many, many subjects. But I wanted, first, to welcome you to Chatham House.

Edi Rama

Thank you.

Bronwen Maddox

Thank you for coming.

Edi Rama

Thank you.

Bronwen Maddox

And then, to start with the UK, which is hard to avoid, you’ve just come from Number 10, and you began today talking on The Today Programme, indeed, about one of the ways in which Albania comes up in British conversation very much at the moment, and that is migration. And I wondered if you could take us into what you’ve been saying to the – to Britain about this.

Edi Rama

Oh, I said to – what I said, also, in the programme in the morning, what I said before, that this aspect of the relation is not good and because of such disgraceful rhetoric, our relations went to their lowest point in my memory. And this is not something that honours Great Britain.

Bronwen Maddox

And the rhetoric is that there’s lots and lots of illegal migration and many, many, particularly young men, coming here. I wondered if you could take us into the facts, particularly, though, because there has been a rise in the number – it appears, in the number of young men trying to get to the UK and I would like you just to explain to people what might’ve been driving that and what your way is of seeing that.

Edi Rama

We have seen it, also, previously. There was a rise in the numbers suddenly, like, big boom, during the big refugee crisis in 2015 and a lot of people took the way to go to Germany. Then, some years later, it has been a rise in the direction of France and this was the third rise, in my count, that happened through the Channel. So, it’s a combination of factors and of course, it’s a base in – and what connects all this, all these rises has to do with spread of the voice and of the narrative that a new frontier is opened for oppor – with opportunities, with jobs, with possibilities to engage in different sectors and so on. And when it comes to Britain, this is also connected, too, with a very family-based and a very, let’s say, area-based rise. Typically, these are Albanians that come from the North-East of the country, where the ties are, and the bonds among families, among neighbours, are strong.

On the other hand, there is a lot of confusion and there is also a lot of speculation about the data, because it’s not – simply not true that all these people come from Albania. This is theoretically impossible, arithmetically impossible and factually not true. There are Albanians that come, also, from other countries, mainly Greece.

Bronwen Maddox

You mean they’ve been living in Greece for some time…

Edi Rama

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bronwen Maddox

…and now they’re moving to the UK?

Edi Rama

Because of the fact that this region, in communist time, when nobody could move and when everyone – even within Albania nobody could move, counted a little bit more than 50,000. So, counting now all the movements from this region to the – inside the country, a lot of them moved towards the capital, towards the bigger cities, counting how much they moved from inside the – from the country outside, and then adding 12,000 in a year is simply impossible. So, it’s a combination of factors.

Bronwen Maddox

So, this figure of 12,000 in 2022 through small boats, you’re saying is – this figure is not right…

Edi Rama

No, no.

Bronwen Maddox

…coming from Albania?

Edi Rama

Yeah, yeah.

Bronwen Maddox

Coming directly from Albania? And this amazing figure hang over it all from Eurostat, that this was 1% of Albania’s working age men heading this way.

Edi Rama

That doesn’t even make sense. It’s – these are speculations of all sorts. The thing is that there is a clear understanding that Britain is in trouble and in Britain, there are a lot of opportunities. There are a lot of demands for workforce and there are new avenues for hopes and dreams of these people and this is simple and clear and the only reason is – you know.

Bronwen Maddox

And one of the points we are discussing before…

Edi Rama

And…

Bronwen Maddox

…was…

Edi Rama

And also…

Bronwen Maddox

…constructed…

Edi Rama

…you have to understand that these rises were at that time, connected with the same, let’s say, fundamental push which is the opportunity to have access in the political asylum system. When Germany changed the – this basis by declaring Albania safe origin country, meaning to get rid of asylum, it’s not something that it’s normal. It’s completely something out of the norm. Then the move went towards France, and now, with the safe origin change in Britain, this is changing just in its basis.

Bronwen Maddox

Hmmm. One of the interesting things we were discussing just before this conversation was that people may be coming – some people coming from Albania here because of construction and there aren’t Construction Workers sin – as many since Brexit, but also that the government here has changed the rules to allow legal migration for things like construction. And it seems to me, is it part of the argument you have been making to Parliament, at the Parliaments here?

Edi Rama

No, no, I…

Bronwen Maddox

About legal…

Edi Rama

It is not for me…

Bronwen Maddox

…information.

Edi Rama

It is not for me to make, but I, simply, I don’t understand at all this policy of closed borders, of fighting against people that come and so on, because, you know, it’s something that is going against the economic basic needs. And I don’t see how Brits and British youngsters will do the jobs that are done by others, Albanians included, but this is not for me to…

Bronwen Maddox

No, but I’m wondering whether you’re expecting a more legal migration because routes are opening for that.

Edi Rama

This is something that is up to the British Government. I – what I see and what we live with in Albania and in the region is that it’s a very, very, very ruthless competition among even very developed countries, Germany first and foremost, to suck our human capital. Because everywhere the need for more workforce is more and more alarming, while the demographics go down and while the industries need a workforce and so, we are facing something that is going to be more and more dramatic in terms of human capital. This is very clear.

Bronwen Maddox

I was going to ask you about that, about the impact at home, because Albania has been going through remarkable economic growth transformation and…

Edi Rama

Yeah, remarkable but not as remarkable as to make Tirana London or to make Kuçovë from becoming, I don’t know, Berlin. So, this will never be the case for – I don’t know. So, you can’t stop young people leaving remote areas that – with all the things they miss. They don’t miss the iPhone and then they don’t miss the TikTok and they don’t miss Kim Kardashian, to go work where Kim Kardashian makes success. So, this is the attraction of places and of countries that offer something to the imagination that nobody can beat.

So, then it’s another thing, how many realise it and how many people struggle and how many people come back, because what we are facing is also an increase of the coming back. It’s still very negative between going and coming, but the coming back in 2022 was 25%. So, 25% of the number, these people have come back, is good, because people that come back after having emigrated, they come with another mindset. They have – they come with another experience. Even them, that go to Germany and they come after six months, they have a different mindset, because they make their mind that, okay, it’s not the paradise I was imagining because, of course, my salary is much higher, but then my rent is much higher, but then my transportation is much higher but then this is higher, this is higher, this is higher, and at the end what remains is not so big. So, when you are young and you don’t have the argument, “Okay, I’m doing it for my kids,” then it’s more difficult. So…

Bronwen Maddox

So, I’m interested in what argument you make at home, as Prime Minister, of, look, Albania has a bright future.

Edi Rama

Albania has a bright future. Listen, I know that it’s not politically correct for me to say what I say, but I never say to people, “Listen, you have to stay here, you have not to go because here is your country, you know.” I – when I was young, I couldn’t leave and no-one could leave. Now, what I fought for is a country that is open, it’s free and everyone can move and you are Albanian, very good, but you are also citizen of the world and you are, you know, right to say, “Okay, I, I’m born here, but I want to live there.” So, this is a world we wanted. So, now, how to say, okay, “No, you stay here, here it is where you have” – no. We – who – there are – people have the right – young people have the right to make their choices. Some choose to stay, some choose to leave, some choose to leave and come back. Some, after staying, go, so this is the challenge of what – how to tell people, “No, the future is bright so stay here with me.” No. You want to leave, leave. You want to come, come.

We have to make possible that every day is better, but we can’t promise miracles and in the same time, miracles, when it comes to developing a country that has been the North Korea of Europe until 30 years ago, need time and needs strength and needs – you need a lot of patience. You – it’s about building a state, but building institutions, building – so, for the Brits, the dirty work has been made before when the heads of Kings were cut in Parliament, when many guys from the court have been burned in the fire and the sword. A lot, a lot of work, a lot of struggles, a lot of bloods, to build what is today Great Britain. Let alone a lot of crimes in other countries, but these I’m not talking.

So, it’s about – yeah, so it’s about history. Our history has not been so generous to us because we had to leave under different empires. We have also this problem, we were loyalty to empires, generally, so we don’t betray easily, not easily, we don’t betray at all. So, we left the Ottoman Empire even when the Turks decided to leave. We left after them, so we the last. Then we joined the Soviet Empire and then, because the Soviets betrayed Stalin, we wanted to stay with Stalin until the end because we were very loyal to Stalin. Then we left the Chinese because we wanted to stay with Mao. So, we got all the crazy things on our shoulders because of our loyalty to empires. And now we’ll be the last to leave the European Anglo-American Empire. Even when this will evaporate, we’ll be there saying, “Great Britain, Great Britain.” So…

Bronwen Maddox

Yeah, well, I was going to ask you about that and, indeed your hopes of joining Europe.

Edi Rama

Be sure.

Bronwen Maddox

Yeah, I’m not going to…

Edi Rama

Be sure.

Bronwen Maddox

Yeah. I’m not going to describe the European Union…

Edi Rama

And if…

Bronwen Maddox

…as an empire, but…

Edi Rama

If Russians will occupy Britain you come to us, we’ll protect you from Putin and from Suella Braverman, both. You know, it’s…

Bronwen Maddox

You heard it here first, I think.

Edi Rama

This is sure, you’ll see we’ll protect you.

Bronwen Maddox

Many sided defence. I do want to ask you, though, about your hopes of joining the European Union and where you think those are.

Edi Rama

Joining the European – when I think we can join the European Union? You are asking me to look the crystal ball and to…

Bronwen Maddox

No, just the future. I mean, not…

Edi Rama

To predict the future that – it’s impossible, because even the European Union doesn’t know about it, nobody knows, nobody knows. And we don’t know, but listen, the, the, the simple part of it and the toughest for us, is we have to do our homework. This is the – simple. It’s at Chatham House with all the people filming here, because I have to understand…?

Bronwen Maddox

Chatham House is filming here so this is live, yes.

Edi Rama

Film – so, Chatham House is open to the public?

Bronwen Maddox

It’s open, it’s open, yeah.

Edi Rama

Okay, good, so, what I’m saying is now public?

Bronwen Maddox

Yes.

Edi Rama

You have to tell me before, so we can…

Bronwen Maddox

I did, yeah. Yes, I did tell you before. We explained the Chatham House Rule did not apply to this…

Edi Rama

It’s a strange – Chatham House, what’s happening with Britain toward – you know, you’re changing everything for – not for the good, I…

Bronwen Maddox

Hmmm. Actually, this is absolutely constant about Chatham House, that these events are public and welcome people.

Edi Rama

So, why it’s called Chatham House, then?

Bronwen Maddox

So – why it’s called Chatham House is because the building is called Chatham House and…

Edi Rama

Ah, it’s the name of the building.

Bronwen Maddox

…the…

Edi Rama

It’s like my hotel, Scotland Yard, it was not called…

Bronwen Maddox

Well…

Edi Rama

…[inaudible – 18:26] was hospitality.

Bronwen Maddox

That one – yeah, well, we’re not yet a hotel, though we are, in the main, offering a warm welcome. I still want to stick on this point, it’s not predicting the future, but it is – and your point about the homework, needed to get to the opinion of…

Edi Rama

Yeah, so we have to make the homework not because we want to please Berlin or Paris or Brussels, but because this homework is from the mantel to make Albania a modern and functioning democracy, with institutions that work for the people, that work for the national interest, that work for Albania in the nat – international stage. And this needs to have the separation of powers in deeds, not only in words, and to have a totally independent, but also professional justice system, and to have all the rest that is well defined and corresponds to 4,000 and some hundred of laws and bylaws that we have to adopt. And this will make Albania a modern, functioning democracy.

Now, will it make Albania a member state? I don’t know. Who knows what European Union will do in the future. We have seen a European Union that has been absolutely hypercritical with us, because we have done our homework, but it was not enough because they had their own problems and the European Union is, I don’t want to sound like a Brexiter because I’m not, but the European Union is a federation of egos that sometimes do not correspond with each other. There are 27 national elections, 27 local elections, 27 European elections, 27, I don’t know, and they are not on the same day. So, a leader, to read the European Union, how you – how? By looking at the elections.

So, it doesn’t matter we did the homework. It doesn’t matter the European Commission, which is in place exactly to assess technically and not politically, objectively and not subjectively, how much this state has done its job, to say, “Yes, they’ve done their job, so they deserve to open accession talks,” because in a way, there are election’s in Netherlands. So, when there are elections in Netherlands, on their word, now Netherlands loves us, but at the time, and then we had to deal with the same rhetoric we’re building nowadays in Britain, for other reasons, Albanians.

And there were titles like, “Another Albanian gang is – has been dismantled,” and then when you read the article it’s about Dutch, Belgian, Moroccans and a couple of old Albanians guarding this greenhouse, not – but the whole gang was Albanian in the title, because it was important to build a narrative of an enemy at the gates and to tell the voters, “Protect your country from this.” And this has made this people with boats being transformed in narrative like Ragnar Lodbrok with his Vikings coming with – through the French Channel to re-invade East Inglia – how it’s spoke, East Anglia. It’s not this.

So, finally, we got to the point when all the member states agreed, and we opened our accession talks. The War in Ukraine has brought to senses the European Union in terms of the geopolitics…

Bronwen Maddox

In what way?

Edi Rama

…because they were saying…

Bronwen Maddox

In what way?

Edi Rama

They were saying geopolitics is geopol – but we’re – in the – in concrete terms, they never made a geo-political decision in time when it came to us because of what I said. Now, it’s different. They are more awake and they understand that they cannot let the Balkans out of the total design. But how long this will take, how things will change, this we don’t know. What we pray is the European Union stays there until we fulfil the homework. Then they can dissolve, it’s their problem. We want to be a state that is a functioning, modern democracy for our next generations and this is something we can do by putting all our efforts and by having the European Union on our side, because we tell the European Union, “You don’t – you can’t do this because you can’t invent this. It’s a knowhow that has been built in many years. These are truths that you cannot invent.” And all the luck of tradition that I mentioned before, which is not just us, it’s also the whole Balkans, can be replaced only by this knowhow, and this is why the European Union is precious.

Bronwen Maddox

I want to ask you about Ukraine. Albania is a member of NATO. How far do you think NATO and the European Union should go in supporting Ukraine?

Edi Rama

Listen, I – the great thing of being a Prime Minister of Albania and NATO is that you don’t have to take the heavy decisions. It’s up for the big guys and so far, we – my understanding is that there is no other way, there is no other choice. We have been swallowed in a situation that we didn’t choose and that the Ukrainians didn’t provoke, let’s say, so this is an aggression. This is a war, a real war, a hot war, not a Cold War, in the gates of Europe. So, we have to do what we have to do. Now, how long and how much the big guys will be able to carry on and will be willing to push, this prediction I cannot make. But what I know and what I can say, is that if the big guys will not push ‘til the end to win this war, then the world will be totally different.

Bronwen Maddox

Alright, thank you. That is a very clear answer. Again, to…

Edi Rama

I hope my answers are clear, but…

Bronwen Maddox

Yeah, but not all answers that we get on this stage about Ukraine are clear, so thank you for that.

Edi Rama

On this stage, before me?

Bronwen Maddox

Before you and…

Edi Rama

Because…

Bronwen Maddox

I have to say…

Edi Rama

…I am not…

Bronwen Maddox

…you are not [inaudible – 25:56].

Edi Rama

…I am not as important as the others that come here, so they are very important, they don’t have to give you clear answers.

Bronwen Maddox

They don’t have to give clear answers.

Edi Rama

Because more important you are, more you confuse people, you know. This is how it goes.

Bronwen Maddox

I wouldn’t say there’s exactly an inverse correlation between important and opacity, but I’ll think about it.

Edi Rama

I’m not talking about Winston Churchill. I’m talking about nowadays Politicians.

Bronwen Maddox

Yeah. Right, we’re beginning to get good questions in.

Edi Rama

Sure.

Bronwen Maddox

But I want to just, before we go through general questions, and please get them ready, thank you for the ones you’re sending online, to ask you about the Western Balkans. It’s something that comes up quite a bit in Chatham House, we’d like it to come up more, of how concerned you think the Europeans should be about what is going on in the Western Balkans and indeed, what other European countries might do about it.

Edi Rama

No, the problem is that we are concerned about the Europeans Union more than they are concerned about us and rightly so, because they, they really – I think they need to be taken care in the sense that European Union need to be taken care very much, because it’s a very defining moment in the history of the democratic family, and the European Union needs to be strong enough and to be clear enough and to be resilient and all this. So, then, you know, it’s important, it’s good that the Balkans are also, are taking care, but the Balkans are used to survive, okay, so we are not spoilt to the point that we can lose it. We survive, you understand?

Bronwen Maddox

I do, I do.

Edi Rama

Thank you.

Bronwen Maddox

Thank you for that. Let’s go to questions now. Could we have the lights up, ‘cause I can see a lot of hands beginning to go up and I want to leave enough time ‘cause there are many, many things. Alright, I’m going to start here in the middle, in the green, yeah.

Member

Thank you.

Bronwen Maddox

And could you say who you are, please?

Zana Chaka

Zana Chaka, Chatham House staff. So, ecotourism is on the rise in Albania and the Vjosa River has just been announced as Europe’s first world river national park. But that announcement came off the back of years long campaigns from international and local organisations, and the threat of environmental damage still persists. Vlora Airport is under construction, Durrës Harbour is being developed by an Abu Dhabi company. What steps are you taking to ensure that Albania’s unique and rich biodiversity, which is so key to its ecotourist credentials, isn’t sacrificed for short-term economic gain and harmful infrastructure development?

Edi Rama

What’s wrong with the Abu Dhabi investment?

Member

It’s – you know…

Edi Rama

No, what? Say it, what?

Zana Chaka

Well, [inaudible – 28:55] insight has, you know, been trying to scrutinise and saying that it’s not necessarily the most transparent of deals.

Edi Rama

No but…

Zana Chaka

So, it’s…

Edi Rama

…where it mentions the idea of transparency with the ecosystem, this is what I didn’t get.

Zana Chaka

That – yes, so I’m just framing it in this way so that you know, this idea of infrastructure development, how do you, sort of, reconcile that with Albania’s biodiversity and how you see…?

Edi Rama

Which part of diversity? In the Port of Durrës, with all the chrome…

Zana Chaka

Oh, tell – talk about [inaudible – 29:29].

Edi Rama

No, no, I just wanted to make sure that we have the same understanding of biodiversity in a place that is full of coal and chrome in the open air and where no fish would dare to approach because it would die immediately. And we approach and we are not yet dead, but we may be dead if we keep this dirtiness in the middle of the city, so this is just for that.

But first of all, is the first national park on the wild river because it is the last wild river, there’s no other one. Europe was full of wild rivers, but all the guys that pushed us to keep it wild, they have dumped their wild rivers. So, all the tigers of water in Europe became cats for the house and for wellbeing of the developed countries, and they wanted our wild river to remain a tiger, which is a good thing.

Secondly, you speak about protest, but you have to consult our programme when we got elected. We already indicated that we wanted to put Vjosa under protection. And if Vjosa was already protected, was protected not as a national park but as a protected area, which is a lower category of protection, so we are very aware of it. And our government has increased the amount of protected areas as an important percentage and our goal is that until 2030 we have 30% of our country protected.

So, I am not saying that the – them who protested did the wrong thing. They did a very good thing, it was very noble, but it was not because of them that we declared Vlora – Vjosa a national park. The delay had to do with a lot of studies and with a lot of assessments, because it’s one thing to say something, like I usually did when I was in your position, just advocating for a better life. It’s another thing when you have to do something, like I am supposed to do here, that I’m – yeah. So, it’s a bit the difference between poetry and prose, if you understand.

So, we had to make the very, very thorough assessment, because it’s a national park that crosses the country, and it has inside a huge amount of people living and there’s inside, even cities that are part of this national park, as ties of life. So, we had to be very clear that this national park first become realities, second does not become an impediment for the economy. So, to have a certain idea of how we transform this, also, in an economy, without damaging nature.

And the last point, which is not unimportant, is that we have inherited in this area, concessions and agreements and a lot of contracts, and it’s easy to say from afar that “This looks so beautiful, make it a park and don’t spoil it, you dirty Politicians, because we need – our new generation, need a new world clean and green.” But then, this can cause to the country to the point it can bring the country to the knees. So, we had to do all these things and yes, we have finally decided and now Vjosa is the last wild river of Europe and the first national park in a wild river. So, it’s a big achievement and I – now the challenge is to give it to – to give to it sustainability and to make it irreversible. And it’s not – it’s eas – again, easier said than done, but that’s why we have divided labour, you say, I do.

Bronwen Maddox

Thank you for that. Here?

Edi Rama

No, don’t stand, it’s okay.

Emmanuel Vida

Yeah, it’s good. Prime Minister, first of all, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. I’m sure you’d rather be resting in your hotel, The Scotland Yard. So…

Edi Rama

No, you don’t know me.

Bronwen Maddox

Would you like to say your name, please?

Edi Rama

Me resting this time of day.

Emmanuel Vida

Yeah, my name’s Emmanuel Vida. I was born and raised in Albania. I then moved here, studied, I now work in banking and finance and I’m proud to say I’m an Albanian-British. During my time here, I’ve seen how the perception of Albanians has actually changed, first-hand experience, sadly sometimes for the worst. I think it doesn’t help that we’ve had movies made about – Taken and Gangs of London and you know, from the moment they made the first James Bond villain Albanian, I think people joked about it, but we – I think we clearly have a perception problem. So, when I look around the room…

Bronwen Maddox

Excuse me, do you have a question?

Emmanuel Vida

Yeah, I see a lot of professional Albanians around the room and I think we, as a community, have the power to make – to help with this perception. In your view as Prime Minister, what can we be doing as a community to help with the perception of Albanians in the UK?

Edi Rama

Listen, do you think Suella Braverman didn’t know that she was saying something wrong, because Politicians say things that then they regret? It has happened to me. It happens to everyone. Especially if you are passionate about what you do and if you are involved in a fight, sometimes, you know, words escape. But then, there is the day after, there is a week after and then, you find a way to say, “Okay, I’m sorry.” She never said she is sorry, because she is not sorry, so you can do nothing.

Bronwen Maddox

The question is about changing the perception of Albanians in the UK.

Edi Rama

Yes, yes.

Bronwen Maddox

And you’re saying…

Edi Rama

And you can do nothing in this direction.

Bronwen Maddox

…tell Suella Braverman to apologise?

Edi Rama

You can do nothing in that direction, but what you should do is to continue doing what you are doing, because the truth of the Albanian community, because the talents in the Albanian community, because the contribution of the Albanian community, will outlive Suella Braverman and many Suellas, anyway. So just keep going, just do whatever you do, be proud of being from where you are, be proud of belonging to this society, honour the British flag, honour the Albanian flag and you are doing the best you can.

Then, Politicians that use their visibility and use their power given by others to represent them, to make votes or to look for votes by doing these kind of things, will always exist, as far as democracy works. And as the great Winston said, “It’s a very bad system, but it’s the best we have,” so just keep going and fight back whenever you can. But don’t really – don’t really upset yourself with that, you know. Just feel sorry for these kind of Politicians and feel sorry for Britain and you are good.

Bronwen Maddox

Thank you for that. Right, over here, please.

Michael Sellman

Thank you. Thank you, Mr Prime Minister. Michael Sellman from Calatrava Grace. Nice to see you.

Edi Rama

Hi, how are you?

Michael Sellman

Could you tell me about the, what I think is a very important open Balkans progress, its plans and important initiative in the region?

Edi Rama

It’s part of all process of initiatives and of stats and it’s part of a whole transformation that the Balkans are living and nowadays, we must absolutely never forget that we are in the best place we have ever been. So, with all the problems, with all the – Albanians are in the best place they ever been, in Albania, in Kosova, in Montenegro, in North Macedonia, they have never been better. The relations in the Balkans have never been better, never, ever. We have an elephant in the room, in every meeting we have with Serbs, which is the big disagreement on Kosova, but still, you know, there are barricades, there are some, you know, angry people, there are some, you know, inflammatory statements, but at the end, they go back to a table and they progress. So, everything is going in the right direction.

The only problem that we have to not underestimate is the Russian influence on the Serbian world and on the, let’s say, Slavic Orthodox part, and for this we need to keep Serbia on our side and you – we need to strengthen the relation with Serbia, and we need to make sure that the unity in the Balkans against the aggression in the Ukraine does not break, because this can bring us back very fast in tragic times, is my understanding of that.

Bronwen Maddox

Thank you, and I’m coming over here, but I just want to weave in a question online from Ian Kingston, who’s a Chatham House member, because we’re on the topic of Serbia and Kosovo. Is there any initiative that you would welcome from the EU or US different from what they’re doing already?

Edi Rama

No, I think this is the best. The paper – the documents on the table is the best they – both sides can get in terms of their capacity to agree. Apparently, the – both sides are still very near to the war and the smell of blood is still strong, to the point that they cannot make the last, let’s say, step, but this is the right way and is a de facto recognition of the right of Kosova to live in its own, to be in its own and to decide in its own, and is a de facto recognition of Serbia as a neighbour with whom Kosova has to deal with and to have normal relations. So, it’s fantastic and therefore, only point is, will it be implemented, because Balkan is a – is a place full of tricks? But, let’s see, I don’t know.

Bronwen Maddox

Hmmm, thank you for that. Right, here on the aisle. I’ll come round, there’s a whole group here, but on the aisle first.

Gergana Krasteva

Thank you. Gergana Krasteva from the Metro newspaper. Bringing your attention back to the relationship between the Albanian and the British Government, how do you see this relationship progress in the future, in the near future, if Politicians like Suella Braverman don’t apologise and don’t take accountability for such inflammatory language, like describing Albanians coming over here as “an invasion”?

Edi Rama

Listen, again, I want to repeat that the – we are sorry, we are very sorry, that’s it. We are not going to connect the strategic partnership that we have with a country like Britain and we are not going to put all this huge big interest to develop this relation in a tiny box of the world of Suella Braverman and some other people. This is much bigger than that, and I might tell you that we are having a very good communication, collaboration. But it’s not to say niceties, because I don’t life is interesting if you live to say niceties that you don’t think are true. No, this is true and we have made a very important step, and I’m telling you for the first time, I’m seeing, not just words, but also deeds from the British Prime Minister. And I’ve seen a lot of British Prime Ministers, by the way. So, in this case, there is something very important that is happening which we are – since long time. I remember since Theresa May was Home Affairs, right, Secretary? She was Home Affairs, right?

Bronwen Maddox

Yes.

Edi Rama

Yes, so we always said we need to build a joint operation first to crack down the criminal networks. They always said it’s great, but never happened. This is happening. So, after my conversation with the Prime Minister in the phone, this is happening, and I’m sure that if it will be done as is planned, very soon the results will be stunning. In terms of what is the problem, my problem is not that Albanians are coming to Britain. My problem is when Albanians are being used in their dreams and hopes for – to reach Britain, by criminals. I don’t have the problem of the British borders being closed. This is – to me, this is wrong, but it’s not up to me to decide. The problem is to not let young Albanians be exploited by criminals, point number one.

Point number two, to not let this fantastic community and it’s a fantastic community, the Albanian-British community here, it’s fantastic, from the professionals to the Constructors, be under the pressure of some rotten apples that are browned. But this being said, Albanians – Albania criminals did not bring crime here, they found crime here. They did not bring drugs here, they found the market here, that’s why they came here. It’s a big market of crime, drugs, of all bad things. This is the truth.

So, to connect this and say, “We are erasing crime because we are fighting the Albanian criminals,” this is just propaganda. Well, it is not, and we are very interested to crack the nut and we are going to do it. And if the British counterparts will help us, will listen and will follow what we are telling – when it comes to Albanians, we are not teaching them what to do with the others. This will be very successful and we will be in a much better place and you will be – the Albanians here will be in a much better place, and this is what we want to do. But singling out Albanians, talking about – so, Dua Lipa is a British Singer and a guy in the boat is an Albanian offender. No, Dua Lipa is an Albanian emigrant that is singing as a British-Albanian. Same for the guy, it’s the same, so it cannot be like that. Everything good we bring here is British. Everything bad, it’s Albanian. No, no, no, no, it’s not like that, it’s not like that.

Bronwen Maddox

Thank you. More and more hands going up. Okay, in the middle, the two people there.

Camilla Bell

Hi, Camilla Bell from BIRN.

Bronwen Maddox

I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you, your name.

Camilla Bell

Sorry, Camilla Bell from BIRN, Balkan Investigative Reporting Network. It’s interesting you were concerned about this event being aired in public. Several outlets in Albania have told my news organisation that press freedoms are declining in Albania. Journalists are banned from asking tough questions at press conferences, and the big TV outlets have been primed heavily. And when BIRN asked for detailed reasons, the government response, the question was too technical. Isn’t press freedom essential for a functioning democracy, and could you comment on that, please?

Edi Rama

Ah. Now, by – so there is a stereotype. If you’re a Journalist, you can say all bullshit you want, it’s freedom. If you are a Politician, then say everything you want, you are suspicious. Now, I don’t accept from anyone moral superiority when it comes to any subject. I don’t see any moral superiority acceptable. I have my answer. You have your questions, your opinion, I have my opinion, but to say that freedom of media is to say everything it comes to your mind and every allegation that you – and then, to say this is just bullshit, is lack of understanding of the freedom. I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it, okay? So, now you say something which is a lie, “Media outlets are fined in Albania.” Give me an example. Ah, media owners, that are also owners of companies that makes – that make tax evasion, and that are sent to the Prosecutor for clear evidence on tax evasion, or media owners that do not pay for years rents to public facilities that they have rented and that are in courts with the government. That, to me, are two different things.

It’s too easy to say, you are – you want me to pay the rent because I am critic, you want me to pay the taxes because I am critic, you want me to pay social insurance to the employees because I am critic, but the facts are different, all different. You have to pay social insurance, which you don’t, you have to pay taxes which you don’t, you have to pay rent which you don’t, you have to build legally which you don’t. So, sorry for all these things, you have to respond like every citizen. You don’t have any immunity in the name of freedom that you can do everything else behind your screen, while what you do in the screen is your job. Is not, you know – we never, ever had to fine the media, although we should. Why? Because there is a big problem with the payment – the wages of Journalists. Go and look to the wages of Journalists and be a bit more preoccupied about them, because they are being underpaid and they are paying a lot – they are being paid a lot in cash and so on, and so further.

So, there is a big problem about this mix between freedom of media and freedom to not abide by the law in the name of being owner of the media. This is not good. In the past, you could say whatever you want, this is not going to pass. It has been tolerated for a long time and this has been wrong, and it will not happen. And you can say whatever you want, as far as there is no Journalist in Albania that is – and this thing that Journalists are not allowed to make tough question, is again, completely not true, totally not true. Journalists can make whatever question they want. They can be who – however they want. It’s not – it’s not this – it’s very clear.

So – and the last I have to say is, I risked my life for the freedom of speech, okay? So, I’ve still scars in my head, so moral superiority and a lecture from anyone that has a pen and says to himself is Journalist, I don’t accept. Then we have different views, we have different rules but the idea that you a Prime Minister, you should not have your view and the Journalists can have every view and you should not say what you think, this is not something I buy. Maybe I’m wrong, for sure I’m wrong, for sure you are right, but this is how it is. So, you write whatever you want. You have the pen, you write, but when you talk to me and when I talk to you, don’t pretend that I buy all the bullshit you want to say. I can’t, that is simple.

Bronwen Maddox

In the middle, and I’ll come over here.

Robert Moreland

Robert Moreland, I’m a Former Member of the European Parliament and I’ve been to both Albania and Kosovo a number of times. I very much support what you’ve said in relation to Kosovo, but I wonder if I could follow it up by asking you if you feel in some ways Albania has a particular role to help Kosovo. It’s regarded, of course, as a friendly neighbour. Is there more you can do?

Edi Rama

All this Kosovo. First of all, it’s not Kosovo, it’s Kosova. Kosovo is the Serbian way to call it. So, if you are looking for Kosova independence, please, and I’m asking you humbly, it’s not your fault. Propaganda has done its job and sometimes I say Kosovo too, but it’s Kosova. No, no, don’t be sorry. I do it also, this, sometimes, but it’s Kosova. So, Kosovo is not the friendly country. It’s a sister country, it’s a brother country, is an – whatever, you know, it’s not a friendly country so we are, we are same. And for some reasons, we are one nation living in two states. So, we Albanians have two states, four Prime Ministers in the Balkans. Something should not be right, but it is like this, and we do everything to help. Of course, for sure, we do everything to help and for sure, we will welcome everything they can do for us to help. So we are, we are same, we are same, just we have a border, we have some rules to respect, but we are same. I don’t know exactly what you had in mind when you asked but I know…

Robert Moreland

My apology for my pronunciation and the country concerned…

Bronwen Maddox

You don’t need to apologise.

Edi Rama

No, learn it with me, Ko-so-va, not vo, va, like Suella.

Robert Moreland

But my – I could throw the point that, of course, when I go there I do get quite a lot of people who do think, you know, they are very close to you, they maybe should be eventually part of you. Do you dismiss that as unrealistic?

Edi Rama

This is another thing. This is another thing, part of us in the sense of, for – of unification, this is another story, and this is not something that is for today. It –you know, in the future everything will be, you know, evaluated based on the full integration among all of us in the Balkans, first of all, and of Europe. So, this is – if Scotland want to leave you, imagine us unifying with each other. So, we need to see how things will unfold in future. For the moment, it’s a different state, it’s an independent state, it’s a multi-ethnic state, as to give full guarantees to both the, not only Albanians, but also Serbs and so on and so further, so I’m not going to enter there. But for sure, you know, the path is the right one to be fully integrated with the European Union and then, who knows? I don’t know, I can’t predict the future, but I think for the moment, this is not – so talking about this topic is not to help them but is to harm them. Whoever talks about it should be very careful.

Bronwen Maddox

Right, thank you.

Besiana Balla

Mr Prime Minister, my name is Besiana Balla. I’m the Research Lead at PUBLIC here in the UK. So, actually, the previous question was a good lead into what I’m about to ask. So, I wanted to ask about the powerful speech that you delivered to the Council of Europe back in October in relation to Kosova. It reminded me of a period where speeches and discord had a bigger impact that it have today. In terms where Albania is being used as a political scapegoat, do you believe that it yielded the result you expected, and knowing what you know now about repercussions would you do it again?

Edi Rama

The repercussions of what?

Besiana Balla

Political repercussions about the speech.

Edi Rama

Which repercussions?

Besiana Balla

The way it was received by the international media.

Edi Rama

I don’t care. The truth is more important than what people may think about it in a moment you say it, because it was a very, very uncomfortable truth. It’s a whole set-up and you know – and some people, some authorities, some colleagues of mine, they don’t want to, to see it. That has nothing to do with the court case. It has to do with a part of it which is, of cour – which is the original sin that brought to it, by the way, but this is true. It’s a Russian set-up, this is clear, and [inaudible – 58:01] to the Russians that still their set-up works and all the European community, democratic community, is working on the base of Russian set-up.

This is the truth, because otherwise, someone has to tell me where are the organs that have been taken out of the bodies and have been trafficked in the West, where? There is no evidence of any kind of such an activity, and this report is a disgrace for the Council of Europe. This report is a shame for the European community of countries that are part of the European Council. This is – the Council of Europe, sorry. This is the truth. What can – what repercussions? This is the truth, and I’m sure that the truth will come out soon and I hope Zelenskyy will not end in jail one day, because with that logic and with – so Slobodan Miloŝević was declared a war criminal, okay. There was a nice warrant, if I’m not wrong, and Hashim Thaçi was baptised George Washington of Kosova, okay? So, he was the Zelenskyy of Kosova at that time. He’s in jail. I wish Zelenskyy will not go to jail one day with that logic.

War crimes are war crimes, so accusing for war crimes, someone that has led a rebellion against an aggressor that aims to ethnic cleansing, like he was the Commander of an organised state, this is gross. But underneath is even more terrifying that there is the allegation of human organ trafficking based on some stories in Albania, the yellow house here and there. No yellow house, no nothing, and the report that says people of the – people in the village, they ignore – they denied to have seen anything of that sort because they were under drugs or they were offered prostitutes. People in the village were offered sex to cover for human trafficking? These are, you know – but unfortunately, it flied and I’m – but I don’t regret it, I would do it again and again and again, as you see I’m doing it here in any occasion. It’s a disgrace.

Bronwen Maddox

Right. I’m going to squeeze in one last question and it’s from someone online, we’re coming right to the end. From an Albanian student at the University of Cambridge who’s on a UK Government sponsored scholarship, [Rialdo Silad – 61:40]” and he says, “Mr Prime Minister” – this goes right back to your comments which I’m sure will have stayed with quite a lot of people here about why Albanians leave. He said, “Mr Prime Minister, I’m saddened to hear you downplay our own country for how attractive it can be for young Albanians to work and achieve success. It’s hard enough that the reality is similar, but given that a government led by you has been in power for ten years, was there nothing you could do to make it attractive, or should be listen to you and be global citizens, leaving Albania barren? What should Albanians who choose to come back do?”

Edi Rama

First of all, I like to be quoted correctly. I didn’t say that. I said, “Everyone has the freedom to choose where to go,” as the gentleman has exercised his freedom to study in Cambridge. Now, yes, we are nearing ten years in government soon, and Albania today is a completely different country, but I never promised that in ten years’ time Albania will be Britain. I never promised that in ten years’ time Albania will be as attractive as Germany, because I would not have been running the country. I would have been somewhere in some mental –so making Albania attractive for young people to see a future is already happening, but in same time, making Albania attractive to a point that young people say, “No, no, no, it’s better here than ever,” it will take time.

Now, I am not going to bother you, or him or whomever, with facts, but I’m telling him only this. In this – in his age, he is right to say this and he should say more and he should even come and fight to overthrow me, the government, to take over, to do it better, so this is what he is in the age to do. When he comes to my age, he’ll remember this, hopefully, and he’ll say he was right. This is what I did when I was his age. But this – I helped to overthrow a regime. So, now it’s a completely different place. Of course, there are problems, of course there are – we are not coming from, as I said, from a history that was generous to us. We have started to build a democratic state only 30 years ago and we found the Turkish, or Poles, or Czechs or Hungarians who are – Croatians even, you know, Communism interfered in a brutal way with already a path of having a state, having some institution, having some religious networks, having some academia. For Albania, it was completely different, completely different.

So, yeah, he is right, I am right, we are both right, so the future will be better because kids like him will come, will take over, will do better and so on, will develop. But to say – because, okay, if this is the fault of the Albanian Government, of Albania, why Serbia, why Croatia, Croatia which is a completely different – is not preventing young people leaving? Why so many Croatians are coming to Ireland? Why Croatia is not already London? Why Greece is not Britain? So, it’s a process and we have to run and we have to improve and we have to be patient and we have to be resilient and we have to realise that change is happening.

Of course, needing more is what young people should do. Of course, fighting for more is what young people should do. Of course, saying that they want a different way of doing things is what young people should do. But as far as I am concerned, I think we are doing what has to be done and so far, we haven’t seeing anyone doing it better. Someone may come and then things will change, but they are changing already with our change.

Bronwen Maddox

On that note, we’re going to have to stop. Firstly, Mr Prime Minister, thank you very much for answering so many questions so directly, including that last one about – which I invited you to answer earlier, about what Albanians returning to Albania should do. So, thank you, thank you everyone for your questions and I can’t – this incredibly wide conversation we’ve had. Thank you very much, indeed, for your time.

Edi Rama

Thank you and [audio cuts out – 66:50] first of all, I want to say I learnt something. I didn’t know that Chatham House was public. I learnt today, it’s good, and secondly, despite how much the questions were – well, the answers were fulfilling in the curiosity, or the reason to lose time here with me, I wish I was not boring. This is the only thing at the end that I can do, that…

Bronwen Maddox

You were not boring, I think we can assure you of that.