The Big Picture on Small States: How Can the Commonwealth’s Small States Navigate Global Challenges?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Welcome everybody. My name is Alex Vines and I’m Director of Area Studies and International Law here at Chatham House. So, you’re very welcome to this meeting today on the Big Picture on Small States: How Can the Commonwealth’s Small States Navigate Global Challenges? This is a meeting that we’re doing in partnership with the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative and the Director of the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative will say some words of introduction in a moment.

I’d like to just remind you that this is also being livestreamed, so all sorts of people who are not in the room will be watching us too and they’re very welcome. So, welcome to Chatham House. You can comment via Twitter, so using the #CHEvents, so #CHEvents, but also, the hashtag – the Twitter account of the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative, so #CHRI@CHOGM, Commonwealth Heads of Government.

Other than that, this is obviously being livestreamed. You might be at Chatham House, but you don’t need to know anything about the Chatham House Rule. It’s fully transparent and fully accountable, which is how we like it. So, it’s all on the record.

So, with no more ado, I think I’d just like to invite the International Director of the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative, Sanjoy Hazarika, just to say a few words about what this about and why CHRI has partnered with Chatham House. Sanjoy, thanks.

Sanjoy Hazarika

Thank you. Well, on behalf of CHRI, I’d like to add my welcome to all of you here and to the panel for taking part with this programme, and our special thanks to Chatham House for hosting this panel discussion, and particularly, Dr Alex Vines for Chairing the session. I’d like to welcome Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells, the Minister for International Development, Australia, Lord Bates, Minister of State, DFID, Dr Patsy Robertson, who is extremely well-known across the Commonwealth and Chair of the Ramphal Institute, Chair of the Commonwealth Association, and Dr Caroline Morris, Senior Director and Co-Director of the Small States Programme at…

Caroline Morris

Queen Mary’s.

Sanjoy Hazarika

…Queen Mary’s, I’m sorry. Thank you.

31 out of 53 Commonwealth members are small states, that’s countries with a population of less than 1.5 million. These states face a unique set of challenges: limited economic and human resources, inadequate access to international systems and political constraints, imposed by the reliance on the support of larger states. Despite such overwhelming challenges supported by the Commonwealth, these states have been key in the establishment of institutional mechanisms, such as the International Criminal Court. CHRI itself, is working for greater inclusion and participation of small states in the UNHRC and its subsidiary mechanisms and working towards building capacity or cap – of Commonwealth small state nations in Geneva, by training Diplomats to engage effectively with HRC mechanisms, such as the UPR and Special Procedures.

In addition, as a Commonwealth leading civil society organisation and in partnership with groups, such as CIVICUS, we seek to bring the need for stakeholders to engage, not just with international organisations, but with human rights and climate change issues at home. We believe at the heart of this unique innovative initiative that it’s critical to have good governance and transparency at home, upholding the rights of citizens and ensuring that the fundamentals of access to justice and information, balancing and connecting international obligations with domestic accountability, are also there.

I look forward to this discussion, because it’s a forerunner, really, to the issues facing small states, which will be at the forefront of the agenda at CHOGM this week. Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Sanjoy, thank you very much for the introduction. So, for those who just came in, just a reminder that this is a public meeting and it’s fully on the record and we’re just about to dis – start discussing the Big Picture on Small States: How Can the Commonwealth’s Small States Navigate Global Challenges? Well, the first person on our panel is Concetta Fierravanti-Wells and she’s the Minister for International Development and the Pacific, in Australia’s Federal Coalition Government. She has served as a Senator for New South Wales since 2005, so she was sworn in as Minister for International Development and the Pacific in February 2016. Obviously, the Pacific, there are a lot of small states there, so Minister, I imagine that you have thought and deal a lot with the challenges of small states and thought about how can the Commonwealth small states navigate global challenges? Over to you.

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Well, thank you and thank you very much. Can I start by acknowledging my panellists and thank Chatham House for this opportunity. The question, at the heart of our meeting today is basically, can the small states of the Commonwealth navigate the biggest challenges of our time, which are basically global in nature? And this, of course, is critically important. Terrorism, climate change, sustaining economic growth, the impact of rapid technological change, sharper and sharper competition for agriculture and resource stocks, these issues confront small island states, or SIDS, just as much as they do developing, or developed, countries.

Now, of course, Australia is a very large – it’s one of the world’s largest islands and we live between two oceans, the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean, and of course, these areas, the Indo-Pacific, is very much home to a very diverse range of nations, and of course, none as diverse as in the Pacific. Now, of course, the Commonwealth is composed of countries that are ranging from small nations to large nations, like Australia. From wealthy nations to the most vulnerable countries, participating in the global economy and we, of course, are very conscious of this diversity, which is very much a feature of the Pacific region.

Many of our neighbours face challenges that are very different to our own and these challenges are common to many of these SIDS globally and the generally, small economies with a very narrow industrial base. They often have small populations and of course, this makes it harder for those – for SIDS to get the economies of scale, the global competitiveness, particularly in a world where increasingly, we are seeing trade protectionism. Often, they are geographically distant from key trading partners, therefore, making it very expensive for them to effectively get their goods to market.

Now, given the realities of our global geography, SIDS are more often than not vulnerable to the dangers of natural disaster, whether they be earthquakes, cyclones or other devastating events. According to the 2017 World Risk Index, five of the 15 most risk countries are in the Pacific, ad just in the last months, we’ve seen cyclones, and three cyclones, hit the Pacific: Gita, Josie and Kenny and indeed, we were supposed to have Prime Minister Bainimarama with us today. But I’m sure the Prime Minister, at the moment, has issues and we’ve got cyclones certainly, very much hitting Fiji at the moment. Of course, these have small budgets, making them subject to a greater degree of fiscal risk than those faced by larger and more diverse economies and of course, this, in turn, limits the capacity of SIDS to respond to global or local shocks.

Governance can be a significant challenge and modest resources often spread vast and remote locations, can make it difficult to achieve the sort of education and health outcomes that we, in the developed –and we, in developed nations, very much take for granted. So, that’s why, from Australia’s perspective, our overseas development assistance is around the $4 billion Australian mark. 90% of our ODA is actually spent in the Indo-Pacific and a third of that directly in the Pacific, and we have chosen to target our spending very much in what we call our backyard, our neighbourhood. This is very – a clear priority of our Foreign Affairs White Paper, which was recently received – released. The stability, prosperity and security of our region is second only to the defence of Australia and so, therefore, we share very much our interest in ensuring, particularly our Pacific partners, lift their economic growth and prosperity.

Now, that – for that reason, Australia has stepped up its engagement in the Pacific. It’s one of our major foreign policy objectives, and if you look at our ODA investment amongst Commonwealth countries, six out of the top ten recipients are SIDS, and the number one recipient, of course, is Papaya New Guinea. We invest our funds in this way, not only because Australians are generous, we believe in supporting our neighbours, but more importantly, this is, for us, an important way of achieving very important sustainable development goals, which are not just in our regional interest, but more importantly, in our own national interest.

Now, it is not in our interest to see SIDS locked out of global engagement and for them to become more sust – more vulnerable to the risk of instability of economic failure. And it is important that development priorities do take into account the priorities of those SIDS, but at the same time, do not impose on them unnecessary debt burdens.

I just want to just attach on some of the things that Australia has targeted, in terms of its assistance to SIDS. In Geneva and New York, our funding for the Commonwealth Small State Offices has allowed small island countries, like Kiribas and Samoa, to represent their interests, to act in international fora and contribute to make their contribution to our international rules-based order. We are proud to help our Pacific Island countries and we support their efforts and their economies to adapt, particularly in a post-climate world.

In recent years, we’ve helped a small range. You know, we not only help in health, in education, in governance, in a whole range of different areas, food security, economic and climate issues, but also, law and order and governance and security. For example, as part of our Regional Assistance Mission to the Solomon Islands, we made this mission, which was a regional mission, made a sig – an enormous contribution to peace and security in our area. And now that it’s concluded, it ran for 14 years, yes, at a cost of about $2 billion for Australia, but today, it is the forerunner now to what we will now be developing in the Pacific, which is a Regional Pacific Security Framework called Biketawa Plus.

Now, recognising rising sea levels will affect Commonwealth countries, both large and small, and this is an issue of fundamental importance to Australia and most especially to our region. Now, of course, the legal implications of sea level rise are not explicitly addressed in the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea and we, in Australia, remain firmly committed to the international Rules-Based Order under UNCLOS and we have demonstrated this through our recent agreement on maritime boundaries with Timor-Leste, which was the first conciliation of its kind conducted through UNCLOS’s dispute settlement procedures. We are committed to working, particularly with our Pacific Island countries, to consider the legal uncertainties that arise and may be caused by sea level rises.

Now, we want to play a constructive voice in this discussion and we hope that this issue will be raised at the next Pacific Island Forum. We are a longstanding partner in helping Pacific Island countries formalise their maritime boundaries, consistent with UNCLOS, through our Pacific maritime boundaries project. And since 2011, we have supported Pacific Island countries to determine 15 shared maritime boundary agreements and establish maritime zones, and last year we committed additional funds to support Pacific Island countries, determining remaining maritime boundaries. We believe that establishing maritime boundaries is the first step in addressing the challenges presented by climate change and the effects of potential sea level rises.

Can I just conclude by saying that clearly, we are here to talk about SIDS, but of course, SIDS is vitally important and small island developing states are very important in our Pacific region and so, I’ve wanted to focus my comments on our neighbourhood. And as a member of the Pacific family, we share very much the common interest in working together to ensure a stable and secure region and we certainly look forward to working with – through some of these issues and having the opportunity to raise them in this very important forum. So, thank you very, very much.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Concetta, thanks very much for your presentation [applause]. So, that was our first panellist. We’re moving onto our second, who’s on my left, and the second panellist is Lord Bates. He was appointed as a Minister of State at the Department for International Development in October 2016. He was previously a Minister of State at the Home Office from May 2015 until March 2016. Welcome to Chatham House. Lord Bates, over to you.

Lord Bates

Thank you for hosting this event and it’s a great privilege to be here and to be on such an impressive panel, as you’ve already heard. The very interesting, sort of, introduction, which was given about the number of small states within the Commonwealth, is 31, right at the beginning, by our co-host, I think underscores the importance of this particular meeting, and this is, in fact, my first CHOGM engagement of what is going to be a very exciting week for us. I know that some of the panellists have already clocked up two or three, working their way through the traffic, but this is my first and I’m delighted, for that reason, that this is the one which I’m able to open on.

I want to, first of all, pay tribute to the Commonwealth Human Rights Institute for their work in championing the issues of voice and engagement of small states, including, through the international institutions, such as the Human Rights Council. I want to thank small island states for their contribution to international efforts, such as their role in establishing the International Criminal Court, the UN Convention of the Law on the Sea, which we’ve just been hearing about, and their energy and drive in securing the Paris Agreement in 2015.

It’s important that the Commonwealth recognises the perspectives of small states across all of its summit themes, and this is an opportunity to amplify the voice of small states. The UK recognises a very important role that the Commonwealth plays in supporting small states in many areas, for example, climate change, governance, elections and transparency. The UK also understands the specific vulnerabilities that small states face. We all witnessed the devastation roared across the Caribbean by Hurricanes Irma and Maria in 2017. Dominica had over 200% of their annual GDP wiped out overnight.

No small island can reasonably be expected to recover and rebuild from a catastrophic disaster that undermines their entire economy, without international support. And I’m proud that the UK was a leading responder to that particular disaster and I want to praise the actions of Commonwealth members, who offered assistance, after that terrible and unprecedented disaster. Six months on, the UK are continuing to provide assistance to vulnerable communities and new reconstruction projects are underway. And our development programme is focused on building resilience across the region and our particular passion on that is to actually build back better. And finally, I’m really keen to hall – to hear from this forum what role you think the Commonwealth can play in supporting small states? Thank you very much.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you, Lord Bates. Well, our next panellist is a veteran of CHOGMs, I believe. She was the Former Director of Information at the Commonwealth Secretariat and the Official Spokesperson of the Commonwealth from 1983 to 1994. So, Patsy Robertson is well-placed, not only to discuss the challenges of small states, but also, about the relevance of the Commonwealth for the challenges that we’ve been discussing on this panel. Patsy, welcome back to Chatham House.

Patsy Robertson

Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

And it’s always good to have you here. I’m very looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Patsy Robertson

Thank you very much. Well, I think what I should try to do is to give you a perspective of what it is like to be a small state in a cruel and quite ruthless world. The whole point is that small states are not big states rigged small. They are small in size, small in population, and small in what they produce for trade and when they do educate their people, they tend to migrate. So, there’s always – they’re always small in having the right number of trained people to take over the burden of running even a small state. So, what small states did, and I think that’s the best decision they made, is that they decided to stay in the Commonwealth. I mean, many people say, why did countries stay in the Commonwealth?

The whole point is, when you leave the British Empire to become independent, as I said before, you don’t have Diplomats. You don’t have links and the Commonwealth provided that, and the early meetings of Commonwealth leaders, you’re having one in London today, went on for four or five days. It was like think in, think tanks where leaders could sit across the table and ask questions and get answers and make friends and, you know, they brought some of the difficulties, which now face the world, to the table.

For instance, it was the Prime Minister of the Maldives, who, at his very first meeting, I can’t remember the date, but it must’ve been in the late – in the 80s, said, you know, “We are going to sing if the world doesn’t do something about sea level rise.” They were seeing sea level rises rising so long ago and the then Secretary General, Shridath Ramphal, he did a lot of specialist people – brought a lot of people, who knew, and prepared a report, which Commonwealth Governments then took to the UN. Commonwealth established a small state office to help small countries have representation at the UN, you know, they didn’t have the Civil Servant.

So, I think, you know, the Commonwealth – as the Commonwealth is still playing an immense role in looking at the problems, in raising the issue of the problems of these countries, I mean, the whole point about the Commonwealth is that it is really – well, it’s a family that doesn’t probably always get on very well with everybody, but you know, families – you feel if you’re in a family you can approach anybody.

I remember, very many years ago, you know, they meet on all levels: Finance Ministers, Health Ministers, Trade Ministers. So, if you’re the Trade Minister coming from, say, Antigua, in the Caribbean, maybe what, 200,000 people? If there are any Antiguans here, please correct me. 200,000 people, you know, you can discuss it with the British Chancellor before they go onto the World Bank or the IMF. And I do remember, this rather dates me, where – when Roy Jenkins was the British Chancellor and at that time, British Journalists did follow the Commonwealth more closely than they do now. And he met the British press and then he looked around and in the other room, the kind of ragtag and bobtail other Commonwealth Ministers were busy chatting and laughing and he said to his Private Secretary, “Now, what shall I do?” And the Private Secretary said, “Circulate, Minister, circulate,” go – meaning go in there and talk, even to the Finance Minister of a small country. And that, you know, that created – gave these small states a lot of confidence and over the years, they have been able to participate, inciting apartheid in Southern Africa, in bringing – ending racism in Southern Africa, and that was only done because they were in the Commonwealth. It’s not – they couldn’t do it through the UN, because the whole issue of racism and apartheid – India raised when they became independent in what, 1947? And it wasn’t until the Commonwealth took it up seriously, in 1965, and worked very hard at it, with the support of countries like Australia and Canada, New Zealand, India, Malaysia, you know, a microcosm of races of the world, all races, all religions, all levels of development.

At the present moment, the – what is happening in the world is vitally important. The Commonwealth is doing a lot of work today, as we speak. They have now just set up an innovation hub to help small states. It’s all on the web, which I don’t quite understand myself, but maybe some of you will, where they can track what is happening, get information, and be able to make a contribution. And part of this innovation hub is that it will help to train some of the people in these small states to become more expert in the challenges, which this worldwide web, this whole new world we live in, and it will help them track their trade. It will help them track what’s happening in the environment, and that is just being set up with the help of a global fund.

So, therefore, I want to leave with you that small states, the Commonwealth is the best home for small states. They are coming here to meetings. They are going to meet, sit with – and meet with the British Prime Minister and they are going to be able to tell what they need – what needs to be done. For instance, Caribbean states are taking up today, or in a few days’ time, the whole problem of people who came here to help Britain after the war and now, having worked here, never bothered to get a passport. Jamaica became independent and they’re facing deportation, under the new rules. But, you know, it’s going to be discussed, although it – the papers say Mrs May doesn’t want to do it, but they’re going to raise it in the meeting and they’ll get support from a great number of countries. Now, where else could they get that support?

So, the message I want to leave with you, that small states, and now they’re all, certainly Caribbean and – countries, dependent on remittances, people who’ve – these people here who are facing deportation, they have educated families, they have sent money back. My country, Jamaica, biggest foreign exchange earner is from remittances in Britain, Canada and the UK. That came about because of Commonwealth links, and the future is not bad for small states. They are creative. They have their music, which sells all over the world. They’re creative people. They have – this morning, at the opening of the forum, the People’s Forum, there was lovely poetry from somebody from the Caribbean, from New Zealand, and Malaysia. You know, where else in the world are you ever going to get that, at a meeting which, ostensibly, is supposed to be about high political issues?

The Commonwealth has debts and it has this huge risk, 53 countries, how many people, two billion? No, two billion is not – and yeah, well, India has 1.2, so, yeah, two billion people, links, which go back a very long time, and which are still very useful. Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Patsy, thank you very much [applause]. We’re onto our last panellist, who is Caroline Morris, and she joined Queen Mary University of London, as a Lecturer in Public Law in 2010. She’s had various other jobs as an academic, but you should also know that she’s had a life before being an academic, when she was Judicial Assistant to Lord Woolf at the Court of Appeal and then, a Legal Advisor at the New Zealand Ministry of Justice. Caroline, welcome to Chatham House.

Caroline Morris

Thank you. Thank you, Alex, for the introduction and so, what I wanted to do, first of all, was just tell you a little bit about the Centre for Small States. The Centre for Small States is based in the Department of Law at Queen Mary University of London, and I founded it in 2015, and primarily because I thought that there was a large gap in the legal world, in that it wasn’t – not that it wasn’t even taking small states seriously, but it really wasn’t considering the unique position of small states at all and I felt that something needed to be done about that. So, I founded the centre a few years ago. It is, to my knowledge, the first, and at the moment, only University Research Centre that takes a legal perspective on the challenges and opportunities for small states.

We use the Commonwealth Secretariat’s definition of a small state in thinking about small states, but we also include other small jurisdictions, so the British Overseas Territories, other non-sovereign entities, countries in free association with large estates, because of the commonalities that they share with small states. And we work quite closely with other Academic Research Centres in Europe, who look at small states, from the perspective of international relations and economic development.

So, that’s just a little flavour of what the centre is and what our focus is and now, I’d like to turn to, I think, what is now the very familiar language of vulnerability and resilience that is used when we talk about small states. And first, talk about the challenges, where I’m going to echo what some of the previous speakers have said. We know that small states, for many reasons, face a number of, well, challenges that are not shared, to the same extent, by larger states or will affect them, to the same degree, and obviously, environmental concerns are a major one of those, climate change, and natural disasters, in particular. But we also know that small states face concerns in relation to sustainable energy, pollution, access to energy reserves, and so on.

Secondly, I know that migration has been mentioned by my fellow panellists as well, particularly, outwards migration, in the form of climate refugees, but also, brain drain, both of which can severely affect a country’s ability to maintain resilience in the face of particular challenges. And from the Centre for Small States’ perspective, at the moment one of the things that we’re focusing on is the challenge of sovereignty for small states and under the umbrella of sovereignty, we think there are a number of challenges that small states are facing at the moment and we are looking at this from two perspectives. The first one had questions of external sovereignty, so, how do small states work through their relationships with other states? So, larger neighbours, in the same region, what are their geopolitical relationships with those countries, but also, in particular, the small states of the Caribbean and the Pacific, within the Commonwealth, what is their relationship with their former colonisers? So, how do they work through that post-colonial state and how does that affect their legal system? So, what do you do in a country where you have a Westminster Parliament, but it also has to take into account customary legal practices? There’s a degree of complexity there that a lot of small states are facing.

Another aspect of external sovereignty is the question of economic sovereignty, so, how will small states survive? Questions of trade, how do they deal with trade imbalances? Questions of specialisation, particularly because they have limited natural resources, so we often see small states moving into financial services, online gambling or other more innovative ways of generating revenue than traditional products, and also, central there, I think, is the question of development. As you said, remittances are a large source of economic revenue for small states, but of course, when you’re relying on remittances, you don’t have those people in your own country to help build up the economy. So, that’s something we think small states are also facing.

The other side of the coin, in terms of sovereignty, are questions of internal sovereignty, and this is my particular interest as a Public Law academic. Whereas, my Australian fellow panellist said, “Good governance is something that is a critical issue that we think small states are facing. So, simply, lack of population, small size of population and the fact that the brightest and best often go overseas and then don’t come back, can cause problems with the capacity of the public service. The small size of the legal community, can then create problems with judicial independence, or compliance with legal ethics, and you might also get problems with electoral integrity as well. So, we think that internal sovereignty, how a small state manages itself as a sovereign entity, is a challenge that needs to be looked at.

So, so much for the vulnerabilities. I do want to end on a positive note and come back to the other side of the coin that we use when we talk about small states, and that’s the question of resilience. And I wanted just to mention briefly, some of the things that the centre has been doing, in terms of working with small states to help them build up their resilience to some of those challenges. I want to stress that we are absolutely not in a position of telling small states what to do, but we hope to work with small states, and other organisations working with small states, to empower small states to face these challenges.

So, the first thing that we see ourselves as providing is a meeting place. A meeting place for people to develop a community of Lawyers, legal academics and of course, others who are interested in small states, simply because we know that a lot of work is done through personal relations, and I think that’s particularly important in small states. When you come from somewhere where things are done through personal connections, where everybody tends to know everybody else, or knows someone who knows someone, who knows you, we think that building those personal connections and place – creating a place where those can be made is very important.

Secondly, we see ourselves as a meeting place for ideas, so a space where people can think about legal concepts and what they mean for small states. What does it mean for a small state when it’s told, “Well, you must comply with the rule of law”? What does it mean for a small state when it’s confronting questions of human rights?

The second thing that we see ourselves as being able to offer is the provision of legal expertise to small states. So, some of the things that we’ve recently done are to provide – put the IMF in contact with experts in the Law of the Sea, for some of their work on the Indian Ocean states. We’ve put forward legal drafters to work with small jurisdictions, such as the Falkland Islands and small states, such as Fiji, where some of our colleagues did work on Fiji’s very recent Arbitration Act, and we’ve provided advice to Seychelles’ Constitutional Court on an election bribery case.

And then, the last thing we’re working on, and because we’re very new we’re still working on this, is the issue of building capacity, which again, I think is really important. It’s been mentioned by everyone as something that needs to be done. So, we’re providing workshops, for example, this year training Judges and other legal decision-makers on working in environmental disputes. So, we want to work with that challenge of natural disasters, or disputes over resources, and help empower small states to develop their capacity to deal with those sorts of issues.

So, that’s a little bit about the centre, and probably more than enough about the challenges, a bit about the centre is working to help build the resilience of small states. Thank you very much for your attention and I look forward to your questions.

Patsy Robertson

It might, actually, be cheaper [applause].

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you very much, Caroline. So, just a reminder, if you’ve joined us recently, either through livestreaming or in the hall here, that this meeting is fully on the record. Not only that, but if you want to tweet, you’re most welcome to do that, to send a comment. So #CHEvents or #CHRI@CHOGM. So, we have time now for a conversation. There’s a panel waiting eagerly here. Who wants to join a bigger conversation about this? We’ll go for the gentleman right in the front row. Congratulations, sir, you’re sitting in business class and you’ve got extra legroom.

Dhananjayan Srlskandarajah

These seats aren’t that comfortable. Hi, I’m Dhani Srlskandarajah from CIVICUS. Thank you for this panel. I think it’s clear about the track record of the Commonwealth on working with – to support small island states and also, perhaps, we’ve got hints of the potential, but I wanted to talk about resources. For me, to fulfil anywhere like the potential that the Commonwealth has to support small island states, we need Commonwealth institutions that are not just more effective, but much better resourced. I mean, the combined budgets of all of the various governmental and non-governmental Commonwealth organisations probably won’t total more than a few tens of millions of pounds. And my fear is, in a week like this, when we’ll hear lots of warm words about the importance of the Commonwealth, that we’re going to underachieve on the Commonwealth’s ability to actually, you know, deliver on this potential, unless we invest in these organisations. And I don’t know, you know, in Australia, I know you’ve had falling levels of ODA in the UK, despite the .7 commitment being met. The risk, perhaps, is that in search of delivery and bigger programmes that the interests of Commonwealth actors, or indeed, Commonwealth small island states, may be forsaken. So, I wanted to ask, well, is it realistic to think that the Commonwealth may, once again, attracted relatively sizeable financial resources from those states that support it, to do the sorts of work that you’re all clearly interested in?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay, thanks, Dhani. Let’s deal with resources and resourcing these issues, with the panel. Lord Bates?

Lord Bates

Well, I suppose, I would begin by saying that we’re – whenever you’re having a debate about resources, of course, it’s never enough. It could always be more, and I think that that has to be said and we recognise that. But if you look for the latest statistics, which are available as to what the UK, through its overseas development assistance, is providing, $3½ billion to Commonwealth countries as a whole. In addition, we have a significant CDC investment programme, which is around about £500 to 600 million in private companies to help build capacity. Then when you look into what we’ve been doing, particularly in the small island states, and we mentioned about the Caribbean, I think that most people, even the ones who would argue that there ought to be more, might – would probably recognise that the UK response was likely, because of the scale of the need, you know, very significant to that, in your numbers, in terms of over 100 million. There are other programmes with – they’re in – particularly in the Caribbean, on the infrastructure fund.

But I think it comes back to another point, which was referred to earlier by Patsy, which is to say that increasingly, the need of small island states is in the need of knowledge and access to scientific knowledge, the cutting edge facilities that we can share. And we have things like the Commonwealth Marine Economies Programme, which is trying to do just that, providing we share better data. So, whilst I always accept that there will always be a demand to do more, I think, certainly, from the UK’s point of view, we recommend – we would like to claim that we are, we’re doing a significant amount already.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Senator?

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Thank you. Look, just a couple of points following on from what Lord Bates said. From Australia, a similar situation, I mean, where about $1.2 billion of our ODA went to Commonwealth countries. I actually think that there’s another angle to this. It’s about partnership and it’s about expanding partnerships and looking at ways that different Commonwealth countries can work with each other. Now, often – Australia is in an area of the Indo-Pacific, so we clearly, have a part of the world, which is not only a very disaster prone one, but one where we have about 36 of the 53 Commonwealth countries are actually in the Indo-Pacific area. So, therefore, partnerships have become very important for Australia.

I think what’s also vital is that often, with overseas development assistance, it’s not a question of quantity, it’s actually a quan – it’s a question of targeting and ensuring that your aid is effective, it’s efficient, and it’s also achieving the priorities that you and the country to which you are giving assistance, those priorities are met. So, from our perspective, I think, as Lord Bates said, there is a very important component, where the Commonwealth, where you’ve got 60% of the Commonwealth is 30 years or under, there is, I almost say, a responsibility for countries, the larger countries, to ensure that we meet a very important objective and that is capacity building and education, and on that front Australia has strongly supported scholarships, capacity building. But also, if I can say, as was said earlier, remittances and affording people the opportunity of labour mobility, and that’s something that Australia has done. We’ve had a whole range of different programmes, but more importantly, to ensure that your labour mobility programmes are not just targeted, in terms of just the money that is remitted and indeed, from Australia about $2½ billion is remitted every year to the Pacific and about a billion to Africa, but it’s about building capacity. So, it’s not just about quantity. I think there’s a quality component of this and that component is that capacity building and that’s very much a feature of what Australia does, in our region, and through a whole range of different things.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you.

Patsy Robertson

May I just…

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Patsy?

Patsy Robertson

…quickly add something?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Yeah, please.

Patsy Robertson

That it’s not always about money. Granted that the – there’s very little money sloshing around, say, for the Commonwealth Secretariat now. But you see, for in – there are so many organisations, which bring Commonwealth people together. For instance, we have here the Secretary General of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Now, he brings Parliamentarians and they get training and they discuss. There is the Commonwealth Magistrates and Lawyers, you know, these are important people, who have to help a country to govern properly.

The present Secretary General is aware that she’s not going to get much more money than the little she’s got and that’s why she’s decided, one of her key things is going to be partnership, and I just mentioned briefly, this innovative partnership with the Global – GIF, Global Innovation Fund. They’ve got the money and as they say, “Honey, we’ve got the people,” okay? And so, that they’re going to – and they’re going – it was a lady who, I know, who came from the GIF, and they’re going to target young people, the bright young people, who from their babies, are – and go into the whole business of cyber whatever. I mean, I have to tell you, I’m quite illiterate about it. But, you know, for instance, security, cyber security, getting to know what’s happening in the world, training people, that is happening and that’s a way the Commonwealth is helping, with support from the Governments, which are – which give money to keep the Secretariat going. But she’s forming links with, you know, a huge amount of internationals. The World Bank is giving the Secretariat money now to do special projects.

So, all is not lost. You can still do a lot without a lot of money. I hope somebody here will maybe call on Parliament and say, “We have no money, but we’re doing great work.”

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Do you want to chip in at all, Caroline?

Caroline Morris

No, I don’t.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Yeah, fine.

Caroline Morris

No, yeah.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay, so the lady down there, first of all, yeah, with the green jacket, yeah?

Member

Sorry.

Patsy Robertson

I thought you said the red dress.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

No, no, no.

Susie Alegre

Thanks. Susie Alegre from the Island Rights Initiative, and thanks very much for the presentations, and my question is about human rights, which can often be quite difficult to deal with in small states. It’s quite a challenge to raise your head above the parapet in a small community and I speak as someone who comes from a small island, originally. And even if you do raise your head above the parapet, it’s often quite difficult to get independent inquiries, or to get effective access to remedies, whether domestically or internationally, in the human rights field. And given – just to highlight a couple of recent issues within the Commonwealth, the fact that the majority of Commonwealth countries still criminalise LGBTI people and also, the recent murder of Daphne Caruana Galizia in Malta and the questions are being raised about the inquiry into that, I think highlights some of the problems. And so, my question is, what can the Commonwealth do to address these issues and to support respect to human rights in Commonwealth small states?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you very much. Caroline, come on?

Caroline Morris

Well, far be it from…

Dr Alex Vines OBE

You abdicated on the previous one, so…

Caroline Morris

Well, far be it from me to tell the Commonwealth what to do.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

But you’re a stakeholder of the Commonwealth, no?

Caroline Morris

Well, that’s true. I am a New Zealander and I grew up in a small island state in the Pacific, so…

Patsy Robertson

[Inaudible – 48:04].

Caroline Morris

I mean, it seems to me that the Commonwealth can provide leadership in those areas, in terms of, you know, perhaps where it becomes too difficult for a country to deal with an issue, and I wouldn’t usually advocate, you know, fly in, fly out experts, because I think that is disempowering. But – and it has been, I think, a short-term solution that is used, particularly in the Pacific, with Judges from Australia and New Zealand working in small jurisdictions to provide that additional level of independence or to, you know, give the benefit of a longer experience or more training. So, I can’t say whether I’m really au fait with Commonwealth wide initiatives, but I know that there are certainly active programmes where members of the Commonwealth family will help other, you know, less equipped members of that family to work through some of those legal problems.

Specifically, on the LGBTI issue, the Centre for Small States is working with an academic who focuses on same sex marriage and we’re meeting up in Bermuda, in a couple of months’ time, where she’s – I’m participating in a discussion about the Bermudan constitution. She’s going to be doing some work on same sex marriage, because obviously, Bermuda recently, repealed its same sex…

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Same sex law.

Caroline Morris

…its marriage equality laws. So, we are – the centre itself is trying to provide a platform for people working in that area to share their research and hopefully, through our events, that will get picked up and we will have some impact there.

But just to come back to that point about funding, obviously the centre, as you know, runs on a complete shoestring out of my office, in the Department of Law, so our contribution really has to be through the provision of academic expertise and building networks, and so on.

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Can I just…?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Yeah, Senator, go on.

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Can I just add to your…?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Yes.

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Susie, I think it was, yes. Look, I think one of the things that’s really important is to ensure that small states are present and do participate. I mentioned, in my talk about the presence in both Geneva and New York and Australia has strongly supported the Commonwealth States’ Office in both Geneva and New York and indeed, it was part of our push to get onto the Human Rights Council and we’ve now – we’re elected to the Council. I think it’s important to have that participation, because if small states are participating, if they are there at the table and their participation is facilitated in places like the Human Rights Council, it’s important to be at the table, because if you’re at the table, issues pertinent to being a good international citizen are discussed then. And so, that’s why I think it’s really important for us, countries like Australia, to support the participation of small island states to be at these international fora and to have their voice heard.

Now, there’s a positive and there could be positive things or negative things, but the important thing, if they’re at the table, then that’s a better chance of ensuring that that international rules-based agenda can be pursued.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Patsy, you wanted to say something?

Patsy Robertson

Oh dear, yes.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Go on.

Patsy Robertson

But in answer to your question, the LGBT issue is a big issue now in the Commonwealth. It’s on the agenda and a lot of countries now, are looking at getting rid of the laws, which allow it. They’re ancient laws and there was a time when the Commonwealth did a lot of training Legal Draftsmen. Well, there’s not much money for that at the moment, but until you find people who can wipe out those old laws, which go back hundreds of years, people will still use them. But believe me, it’s something that now I think might even be discussed quietly at the meeting, but not anything – there might even be something in the communique, I don’t know. But, you know, the Commonwealth is full of surprises, and a lot of countries now, which didn’t think it was their – a problem for them, now have accepted that it is a problem and I think our Human Rights person is looking at me very sharply, but I think the Commonwealth is aware. Would you not agree with me, David? Yes, yes, yes, yes, and you see, you have the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative. They are going around nagging every Head of Government, they have me. They’ll nag you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay, we’ve got a good amount of hands going up, which is great. So, I’m going to have to cluster now to be as accountable as possible. So, you, sir, first?

Mushtaq Lasharie

Mushtaq Lasharie, Co-ordinator of All-Party Parliamentary Group on Third World Solidarity, working for human rights, peace, justice and tolerance in Third World countries, but generally, in Commonwealth. Can I just follow-up on the point which has been already asked the gentleman, the aide? I worked very closely with the DFID in 2004 and five and in 2005, we committed the Britain for .7% of our GDP by Hilary Benn, the then Secretary of State for DFID, to one of our meetings and we have achieved. But I think it is very important, during our research, it was identified that more than ten times remittance is of the aid developing world give to the countries, but there is no assistance to the people who are sending that money back how to invest it, because they are building big houses, in which they are not going to live anyway, or their children are refusing to go back. That is one point.

But can I also ask that what are we going to do about the corruption, because a lot of this aid money goes into corruption? And that is very important, because if it is not reaching to the people who need it, there is no need of sending it. And how many countries, if Lord Bates can answer, have achieved .7% of GDP to their – this aid, as well?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay and there’s a lady over here. I haven’t been to the far right of the room, or your far left, so yes, you. Please introduce yourself.

Melinda Janki

Thank you. Ty name is Melinda Janki and I’m the Director of the Justice Institute in Guyana and I just have two questions, really. One was in response to the human rights. I’d like to start by congratulating the UK and Australia for taking a very principled stand against the death penalty and my question is, really, what is the Commonwealth going to do about abolition of the death penalty, which is still prevalent in many Commonwealth countries? And my second question is, really, was sparked by Senator Fierravanti-Wells from Australia. In your presentation, you talked about your responsibilities to the neighbours in the Pacific Islands, particularly the small island states, and you also talked about challenges. Australia’s per capita emissions come to about 16.35 metric tonnes. Vanuatu, it’s 0.51, Solomon’s, 0.38, Fiji, 1.5, so very, very small and I wanted to ask, really, what responsibility do you think that Australia has towards the small islands, as a result of climate change caused by the disproportionately high levels of emissions from Australia? And of course, it’s a question that could also be addressed to the United Kingdom, which has very high emissions too. So, I’m wondering whether you could say something about that and the extent to which the Commonwealth can deal with carbon emissions and take us from where we are right now, heading for a 1.5° increase, to stopping that and perhaps even reversing it, using greener technologies? Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you. So, I’ll – we have, on the table at the moment, a discussion about 0.7, quality of remittances, the issue of corruption, death penalty in the Commonwealth, and carbon emissions, climate change, in particular. So, what I will ask is, to go down the panel here and just choose what you want to answer, ‘cause I’m also wanting to make sure that we have time for other, ‘cause…

Patsy Robertson

And what was the other one, corruption?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Corruption. So, Senator?

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Yeah, if I can just touch on your question, sir, about the aid and corruption? I think, what is very important is, that you do have mechanisms in place. Australia has a very strong framework, in terms of its overseas development assistance, in terms of ensuring zero tolerance to corruption and all of our programmes go through quality assurance, if I can put it that way, and in terms of its effectiveness and efficiency. We also have what we term aid investment plans, or aid assistance plans, with different countries. We have about 25 of them, which have clear indicators, clear KPIs and clear performance requirements for the period of time, whether it be three years/four years, in terms of that terminology. On the death penalty, well, I think you mentioned the issue, as far as Australia is concerned.

Can I particularly touch on the point that I think it was Melinda made, in relation to issues pertinent to climate? Australia has invested a lot, in terms of climate, particularly in the Pacific, as a consequence of our commitment to the Paris Agreement. We have invested, or we committed $1 billion. 300 million of that was actually to the Pacific specifically, over four years and including a contribution to the Green Climate Fund. Australia was co-Chair of the Green Climate Fund and we worked very hard to ensure that a good portion, certainly a sizeable portion, about 10% of the funds, went to Pacific Island countries. Australia has adopted a neutral approach in relation to its technology. We gave a commitment at the Paris Agreement and we will be meeting our emissions targets, as part of the Paris Agreement, and we are on track to meet that agreement. So, we are undertaking, not only a domestic agenda, but an international agenda.

But our work, particularly our work in the Pacific, is a very practical one. It’s a programme that goes towards, not just mitigation, but adaptation, to ensure that the day-to-day, if I can put it that way, the day-to-day assistance necessary for the Pacific, particularly in terms of building resilience, and as Lord Bates talked about, building back better, certainly the work that we’ve done, particularly after disaster and disaster management, but also, in terms of assisting the Pacific, in terms of a framework for resilience and disaster preparedness, goes to that global commitment that we have to preparing the region for the next disaster, but also, ensuring that the next disaster, if we are better prepared, is not going to affect the people of the Pacific as much as the previous one did.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Lord Bates?

Lord Bates

Just picking up, first of all, on the 0.7, of course, it wasn’t just the UK who signed up to this. The OECD countries signed up to 0.7% way back in 1970. It’s nearly 50 years that people have been waiting. So, in a sense, we were – okay, you get two tiers for coming late to the party and actually delivering what you promised that you would actually do, you know, in 2013/14, you know, some 40 years after the pledge. So, point number one is, this is – we need to continue to advocate to those countries who have not met that obligation that this was a commitment that we all made, and we said we would do it and we should move towards it.

Second point, which is almost going to contradict it is to say that aid is not going to solve the problems. The SDGs, you know, and you know these figures pretty well, they’re out there and well estimated, $3½ trillion is the cost of actually, per year, of actually, you know, implementing, or getting us ready to meet the SDGs by 2030. At the moment, there’s a $2.4 trillion gap, total global aid flows of around $150 billion. So, if we are going to actually reach the SDG targets, then we need to leverage in significantly more amounts of private sector capital. So, it’s appropriate that my second CHOGM meeting will be – I’ll be leaving in about ten minutes to go to the City of London, where we’ll be launching a Centre for Disaster Protect – Preparedness, which is trying to leverage in insurance funding to address some of the key issues to be raised.

The second one is a little bit similar, in the sense that if you look at the issue of corruption, then we agree that this is a serious problem and challenge for that we need to address. So, then you put in place significant controls about anti-money laundering and against – and anti-corruption legislation, you put it on the statute book, and what happens, the financial institutions that were delivering the remittances, then start de-risking and the cost of actually sending funds back to countries, starts to get more and more – proportionately more and more expensive. So, these are very complex issues, but the remittances, I mean, this has been picked up by the G20, it’s been picked up by the Financial National Taskforce and the Financial Stability Board, so that there are people there, and what we’re saying is, first of all, listen, this is only going to go in one direction. I’m afraid we’re not going to say that we’re going to roll back on all the anti-money laundering and the anti-corruption legislation that we’ve done, you know, we’re not going to do that. So, what we need to do is, we need to work with, in a similar way to we’re talking more about knowledge sharing/technical assistance, we need to help work with small island states, work with other members of the Commonwealth, to actually help them to get ready for that challenge.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Patsy?

Patsy Robertson

Well, certain things – I think the Bible says, “Certain sinful things are always near us,” and I think corruption is one of them. The issue of corruption is so widespread and difficult. I remember, many years, ago reading a book written by a chap who worked with the big American agency and he looked into what was happening with drugs money coming from Colombia and other places in the world. And in that book, he named all the banks, in which this money flowed through, and I’m not going to name the banks, but it did go into the main financial centres of the world, on the basis that something like money laundering is such a big issue, that big Governments can’t allow it to get entirely in the hands of criminals.

But the Commonwealth is aware of – I’m not here to speak for the Commonwealth, but I do know, having worked with them for 30 years, that it is a big problem, it is everywhere. Money is sloshing around. People get bribed and sometimes, you know, I have a feeling of sympathy for anybody who is running a difficult poor country, in which there are still people who don’t want change and you try to get them to change their ways. I would think, say, the person who runs the Congo, hmmm, a put together country by a Belgian King, bigger than the size of Europe, with very few – when, at independence, they had one university graduate. He probably migrated quickly. What do you do? How do you manage a country like that, huh? And are there any Nigerians in the room? No. So, I can speak?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

There is.

Member

No.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

There is.

Patsy Robertson

Yes, well, sir…

Dr Alex Vines OBE

We’re running out of time, Patsy, we…

Patsy Robertson

So, you have a country and there are – the – Nigeria’s name is always being called, but you have a big country. Put together, again, by the Empire of big tribes who are really, countries. There are 60/70 million in each – the Aruba’s and so forth and so on. To manage these countries is difficult, very, very hard and that’s why corruption flourishes, okay?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay. I’m going to take one more round of questions and I’m going to go down here, one in each block. So, you, sir, first.

Sebastien Pillay MP

And thank you very much. My name is Sebastien Pillay. I’m an MP from the Seychelles. You don’t get to be more small state than the Seychelles, population of 90,000. It’s quite interesting that on your panel there’s nobody from a small state.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Oh.

Sebastien Pillay MP

Yeah, she’s from Jamaica, right? So, it’s very good you’re from Jamaica. You’re familiar with Seven Mile Beach in Jamaica, right, which is now – Seven Mile Beach in Jamaica?

Patsy Robertson

Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

Sebastien Pillay MP

Which is now going away because of coastal erosion, because of climate change.

Patsy Robertson

Yeah.

Sebastien Pillay MP

The Maldives is sinking, we’re losing beaches as well in the Seychelles. But yet, our contribution to global pollution is nil, almost zero. So, what really is commitment, on the part of the Commonwealth, in relation to this, in establishing, perhaps, what I think should be a Climate Change Council within the Commonwealth?

The second point about remittances, which is a very important issue. Currently, people living here are having problems sending their remittances back home because of de-risking and loss of correspondence banking. But you’ve just mentioned that in the room, when you discussed the rules, small states and those financial centres were not there. The US, I think you’re aware, is not changing its mantra. Jersey/Guernsey here in the UK is not changing its mantra. So, how are you going about in establishing a forum, whereby some of this actually gets into the room and brings out the point that is important for them? Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you very much, sir. The lady there with the very long finger, yeah.

Corinne McCrum

My name’s Corinne McCrum. I’m an Afrophile. I started doing VSO in Nigeria and love the continent. What I wanted to ask, and it comes from being a Maths Teacher many years ago, is what would the Venn diagram look like of the intersection of the Commonwealth small states? And you also mentioned some other categories, which I’m sorry, I didn’t really catch, because I guess there probably are other small states, which aren’t part of the Commonwealth. So, I would be interested in any of you know an actual picture of that to give a bit more clarity?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay, the lady here was very patient right at the beginning. Patience gets rewarded sometimes, go on.

Latika Bourke

Thank you so much. My name is Latika Bourke. I’m a Journalist with the Sydney Morning Herald Newspaper in Australia. Lord Bates, my question is for you. Notwithstanding the comments you made about aid money not being able to solve all the problems and it’s quality, and not necessarily the quantity, you are a country that has bravely…

Dr Alex Vines OBE

[Inaudible – 68:29].

Latika Bourke

…stared down populist attempts to hack into the foreign aid budget. Australia is not one of those countries and yet, Australia today is calling on Britain to do more in the Pacific, where China has embarked on a huge influence buying spending spree. Do you think Australia also, has an obligation to do a bit more here?

Lord Bates

Wow.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

And this side. We’ll have gender balance. We had two ladies, so two gents. You, sir.

Dr Nicholas Watts

Thank you, Chair. Nicholas Watts, Institute of Commonwealth Studies and I also Chair a SIDS Partnership: Learning from the Sharp End of Environmental Uncertainty in SIDS, where we recognise the leadership exercised by SIDS, for example, Fiji, in hosting three international meetings in the last year, and Seychelles, who will be represented here on Wednesday, championing the Blue Economy, and we really think sometimes, SIDS’s achievements are underplayed. But Senator, you mentioned getting the states to the table and I’m, sort of, wondering, who’s at each table? Because the Pacific Island states are under-represented in the context of civil society organisations participating. I think a minority of them are members of the Foundation, the Commonwealth Foundation, which is civil society in the Commonwealth, at one level. And so, I was wondering, what efforts are made to ensure civil society engagement and whether that civil society engagement tends more to be regional, i.e. SIDS to Australia and New Zealand, and/or to Commonwealth, i.e. international? But it’s under-representation of civil society organisations in the SIDS. If you had any comments on New Zealand’s role, having just heard the last question, in the Pacific Partnership, I’d be very interested to hear them. Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you very much. So, that’s the questions and we’re going to go down, starting with Caroline, ending with the Senator, for responses to questions and final thoughts. So, Caroline.

Caroline Morris

And so, I had a thought about the questions, in terms of what was most within my expertise, or my jurisdiction, I think, and I’m going to start with the maths question. I think you’re right, the majority of small states are within the Commonwealth. There are two small states in Europe: Cyprus and Malta, who are members of the Commonwealth, and then another six in Europe, and a few others in Africa and then, of course, we have the larger states, such as Jamaica and Papua New Guinea, who are not small by population, but they share the characteristics of their smaller counterparts. But by far and away the largest concentration of small states is within the Commonwealth. So, I do think it’s right that we focus our attention on the Commonwealth as a driver for change. And I also wanted to say at this point that I recognise that there are a lot of representatives of organisations who work with small states, who are interested in the problems and challenges faced by small states, and I want to extend an invitation to you all to contact the centre to see how we might work together, because I think one thing that we do know is that small states are better able to solve their problems, either together as a grouping of small states, or within the – under the umbrella of a larger organisation, and we’re very happy and keen to be a part of that.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Patsy?

Patsy Robertson

Yeah, two things I want to say. There are a huge number of Commonwealth organisations, which have entrée and talked to Government. For instance, you mentioned the death penalty. There are organisation, like the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative, which will take up and they have access. The other thing is that there are – and the organisa – I’d better give a plug for my organisation, which is the Ramphal Centre and what we do is, we try to bring to the attention of the ACP countries, Africa, Caribbean and Pacific countries, the kind of research that you are doing and other organisations are doing, which affect them directly and for instance, we did a booklet recently. We had – you know, we consulted and we got immense amount of support, no money, to deal with Brexit. Nobody has mentioned Brexit.

The point is, all the small states are going to have to start negotiating with a cruel British Government on new trade things, on the WTA Rules. Okay, the last time they did that to get the court into agreement with the EU, it took years and years and years, and the leader of the team was my ex-boss, Sonny Ramphal and I asked him, “How is it going on?” He says, “The Europeans are merciless.” Well, we know because of the Commonwealth, Britain won’t be merciless, but that is the reality and I sent – I took it on myself to send this little booklet, it wasn’t printed very well, to every Head of Government in the ACP countries, and I was astonished at the personal replies which came back. I didn’t bother with India and Australia and Britain and so forth. Thanking us, because they could pass it to their Civil Servants, who had to write and put a piece of paper before a Head of Government or before your UN Representative, how to speak up and fight your corner.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Lord Bates?

Lord Bates

Addressing the two questions that were put directly to me, first of all, from our colleague from the Seychelles. I think that, listen, as was said earlier, the Commonwealth is the best place for small states. This is a place in which your questions and issues can be debated. It’s a family, it’s a community of sovereign states. So, it doesn’t respond well to people – you’re lecturing people or taking a high moral position on various issues from time-to-time. We need to work together on them to actually steer a path forward. And I think that’s the reason why it’s very important that we operate on a position of international respect, of working together, of respecting our different positions, where we might be starting from and seek to build from that. So, I know that that isn’t directly addressing your question, but I’m certainly not going to get into any debate with our dear friends, when they’ve hosted such a wonderful Commonwealth Games, even if…

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

You beat us in the netball.

Lord Bates

We beat you in the netball…

Caroline Morris

You can’t talk about that.

Lord Bates

…but we came significantly behind you, in terms of England, anyway, in terms of the medals. So, you know, it’s been a wonderful thing, but we do need to respect our differences and not to fall out, but recommend that what we actually share together, in terms of the big issues and the principles and the belief in democracy, in the rule of law, in the international order, our shared values, throughout the Commonwealth, are really what come to the fore during this conference.

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay, Senator?

Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells

Thank you. To the point about who participates, I think one of the things that is important is to assist small island states to actually travel to the place where a particular engagement is happening. And that’s really where, from our perspective, certainly whether that be regionally, or whether it be in terms of things that may happen, say in Geneva, that we want to assist. Let me give you just a couple of examples. In the last year or so, I’ve attended two international engagements where we have, from – in Australia, as part of our ODA, have actually assisted participants from small island states in the Pacific to actually travel to participate.

On the regional level, and we did this very much in the – as part of the COP23 and I have to say, having Fiji have the Presidency of COP23, I think was really important, because it gave a very distinct perspective, in terms of the issues that are faced by small island states. But we supported the participation of civil society at the regional level and often, it does need to be at a regional level, and particularly in relation for travel or other issues. But I think that, where possible, in addition to regional participation, it does need to be at the international level, and that’s the point that I was making before.

On the point that Latika made, just a couple of things, three points, if I can? One is that, from Australia’s perspective, we have not prescribed a percentage of GNI that will be the aid budget. Having said that, we did increase our overseas development assistance in the last year and have now put it – frozen it for over the next couple of years. The issue, though, whether it’s Australia or any other country, becomes one of taking your public with you, and what’s really – and this is an issue that I will be exploring this afternoon at the talk I will give.

In Australia we had some research done, where it showed that 80% of Australians believed that the foreign assistance, the aid that we were giving, was sufficient or was too much. That is compared to, if I can put it, the aid – people who are working in the aid sector, believe that there is not sufficient aid. There is – and we’re talking a big schism between those two percentages. So, what is vitally important is that you do take the public with you, and that’s really, since I became Minister, we haven’t focused – I didn’t want the debate to just be focused on what we do. It’s important to understand the why, but also, what is the direct benefit to your country in providing overseas development assistance? So, in Australia’s case, the fact that we provide 90% of our ODA to our region, it’s not just focusing on what we do. Why are we doing it? We are doing it because we want a stable, secure and prosperous region. What is the direct benefit to Australia? Because if we do have a stable, secure and prosperous region, then that is second only to the defence of Australia. So, when – you have to take the public with you on this issue and that’s why part of this, on the aid issue, is actually the – your public, whether it’s the Australian public, or the British public, or any other public, they have to understand the what, the why, but more importantly, what is the direct benefit of overseas development assistance? So, that’s really, where I think that in Australia – and that’s not just something that we as a Government can do, it’s civil society, it’s business, it’s a whole range of different things and that’s why Australia’s commitment to us – is to the SDG and we are now, this year, going to provide our voluntary national review. And as part of that, we will really be doing a bit of an audit of where we’re at, but in the end, that’s really where, from Australia’s perspective, it needs to be a combined effort, but you need to take everyone with you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Senator, thank you very much. I’ve got three things to do. First one is, just to draw your attention that the Africa Programme at Chatham House on Wednesday is hosting a meeting with the President of the Seychelles, Danny Faure, who will be speaking on Strengthening Institutions for Development: Lessons from the Seychelles. So, we’ve heard several comments today and discussions about the Seychelles. This meeting is going to be particularly about what is the learning from the Seychelles for other small island states, in particular? If you’re interested in that meeting, it’s on the 18^th of April, 11:30 to 12:30, and there’s information on the side there, which you can take away and please register. There are seats, still, for that.

The second thing is to thank the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative. Sanjoy, thank you very much for partnering with us on this very successful meeting. It’s a pleasure to work with you. And thirdly, and most important, it’s can we all thank this marvellous panel for spending an hour and [applause] 15 minutes with us. Thank you very much [applause].