China’s view of the West

Vincent Ni

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for tuning into this event on China’s View of the West. My name is Vincent Ni and I’m The Guardian’s China Affairs Correspondent. Now, as a Journalist who covers China, I’m often asked what China thinks of the US, the UK or the West in general. There has been increasing curiosity about China in recent years. You’ve seen it from the TV, heard it on the radio and of course, read it in The Guardian. But the interest is far from a recent phenomenon. In fact, on the 30th of April 1852, The New York Times, in one of its first commentaries about US-China relations, wrote, and I quote, “The rapid growth of our Chinese commercial relations excites universal wonder.” But how – but what do we know of China beyond the stray collections of curiosities, the size of her female feet and the flavour of her teas? Generally, quite little.

Of course, that was the late 19th Century. In the last few years, China has become one of the foremost foreign policy topics in Western capitals and as a result, we’ve seen the UK, the US and the EU update their China policies. These debates also are heard in universities and even on TikTok among some young people. But is there a similar debate going on in China, as well, apart from what you hear from its Foreign Ministry spokespeople and what you read from the likes of the Global Times? What do ordinary Chinese citizens and businesses make of their country’s changing relationship with the West, and if the West sees China now less favourably these days, is there a similar attitude in China towards the West, as well?

Now, these are some of the questions we are going to address today with this stellar panel of speakers. Let me first introduce them to you. Sylvie Bermann, our first speaker, is a familiar name in London. She was France’s Ambassador to the UK between 2014 and 2017, but she’s also known to many in China. She served as the French Ambassador to China between 2011 and 2014 and she first started to engage in China in the 1970s. She’s going to give us, today, a diplomatic and a more historical view of China’s relations with the West. She’s joining us from Paris today. And from London we also have Peter Lu, who is a Partner at the law firm, Baker & McKenzie. Peter also has the firm’s China practice here in the UK. He’s one of a growing number of Chinese professionals who straddle both China and the West these days. He’s going to present a view from the commercial sector. Last, but not least, also from London, is Chatham House’s own China expert, Yu Jie. She’s known to many China watchers here in the UK and really needs very little introduction. She’s the Senior Fellow on China Studies in Chatham House. She’s going to give us a perspective from young Chinese citizens, millennials, and perhaps the generation of Chinese TikTokers.

Now, what I’ll do, in the next hour, also, is that we’ll invite our speakers to present their views first and then, we’ll start a conversation. But before we start, a few housekeeping notes to go through. First of all, this event is being held on the record. Therefore, you are very welcome to tweet about it. Our hashtag is #CHEvents, #CHEvents. We’ll also be taking questions from you, shortly after our speakers’ presentations and as well as a quick discussion, so please do keep your questions coming using the ‘Q&A’ function. And’ if your question has been selected, you may be asked to unmute and ask your questions live, but if you want me to read out your question, please also indicate so in the ‘Q&A’ box.

So, why don’t we go straight into our speakers’ views? Sylvie, over to you.

Sylvie Bermann

Well, thank you very much, Vincent. You asked me an historic perspective and you are reminded that I was a student at the end of the Cultural Revolution and, well, the few days after Mao’s death, and afterwards, during Deng Xiaoping’s time and then, when I was Ambassador to China, I was witness to the arrival of Xi Jinping. So, it’s 40 years or more of China. I think well, when – and the first time in China, it was a very poor country, and still a Communist country, so the situation has totally changed. There’s a period when they admired the West and in particular, the United States, but maybe they had more relationship at that time with Europe, which appeared to be a counterpower to their adversaries, either Soviet Union or TL Wall, the visit of Richard Nixon, the US.

What has changed now is that, of course, China is the second – sorry, my cat – the second world economy and it happen in 2010, if I remember when – well. And so, they changed their position and their view of the West at that time and afterwards, they were more confident, more assertive and sometime, arrogant, also. But how did they see the West? They see the West in decline, in fact, and I remember once, they joked about the G7 meeting, saying that it was “the meeting of the poorest countries in the world,” when we said we are the ‘strongest countries’. And they are proud of their achievements, which can be very well understood.

They – when Obama was elected, it was the same year when Xi Jinping was elected, and they mentioned that all the time. They were very proud of that. So, they imagine that without saying it, there would be a kind of, G2, so they would rule the world, there would be a good co-operation, and it didn’t happen like that and afterwards, the situation deteriorated. Well, of course, during Trump start time it worsened and now it’s even worse with Biden, because it’s a real Cold War. I mean, there’s a technological blockade and also something, which didn’t happen during the mandate of Trump, which is also ideology called ‘confrontation’. It’s not on the part of China, but on the part of the US, wants to put – to push democracy everywhere in the world.

So, they see it – they see the Western decline, they see the West also more aggressive and a kind of collective West, so they don’t make any more difference between the US and the EU, or they consider that the EU is just following the American crusade. That’s the reason why there was a lot of problem this year with an escalation on sanctions, and they sanctioned the very person who could help to ratify the agreement and investments and now it’s totally frozen, so it’s totally counterproductive. And so, they see, like the Russians, a collective West outside to China and so, the reaction of China is to have a partnership with Russia, because they are more and more similar and with other countries in the world. And so, now you have the blocs and that’s the – that’s how they see the world now, well, how they see the West now.

Vincent Ni

[Pause] Fantastic. Thank you very much. So, next up Peter. Peter’s going to tell us about the mood, the change in the mood among Chinese businesses. Peter, over to you.

Peter Lu

Thank you, Vincent. I think I have been asked to talk about the Chinese CEOs’ view of the West. I think I don’t want to just repeat what they are saying to me every day, although I talk to them a lot of times, on daily basis. But I think it’s very important to look at what happening in the past four/three decades in China, commercially and to the top companies, because these fact and numbers are really shape their views. So, bear with me, I’m just going to share some facts with you guys and then we can – I will tell you the conclusion from that, what that means.

So, I think that the world economy and the same in China is shaped, not by actually the states, but by very big, influential companies and this is very true for China and Chinese company. As everybody knows that we have seen average growth about 10% GDP for the last four decades in China and behind this is also the story of rise of Chinese companies, and these company are really critical element of our national economy, power and trade and research and development. So, with the rise of economic power of China, we have also seen the Chinese company also climb the rank to be among the largest in the world. For example, the world four biggest bank, in terms of assets now are Chinese banks, namely ICBC, CCB, ABC and the Bank of China. So – and if we look at other numbers, let’s look at Fortune Global 500, in 2008 only 29 Chinese company made onto that list. And this company has combined revenue of about $1.1 trillion, which account just 5% of the revenue generated by the world five – largest 500 companies. By comparison, last year there are 124 Chinese company with a combined revenue of $8.3 trillion appear on that list, represent nearly a quarter of 33 trillion of the revenue generated by top 500 company in the world.

So, the US fell behind China for the first time, in terms of number companies on the Fortune 500, with only 121 US company on that list, in comparison China’s 124. But this is important, US company, nevertheless, maintain a lead, in terms of revenue. The top US company brought in nearly 8. – 9.8 trillion in revenue, about 30% of total, compared to China’s 8.3 trillion, which is about 25% of the total 500 com – top 500 companies.

If we will look at the sectors, as well, more than half of China top company are concentrated with three sectors: finance, energy and the materials, and in the technology space, five Chinese company made onto the last year Fortune Global 500, which is less than half of the entrants from the US company, 12 companies from the US. But roughly the same as the Japan, which has seven entrants and Taiwan has six company on it, as well. So, the US technology company also enjoy a edge in revenue. Apple alone generate over $260 billion revenue, which is not very far from the total revenue generated by the five technology company got onto the Fortune 500 list. So, China leading company, technology company, Huawei, generate about $124 billion in revenue and in terms of brand value, brand finance produce annual rank of world top brands and in 2002, China most valuable brands were worth, collectively, 1.4 trillion, which is good enough to put China on number two on globally. But American brands post impressive 3.2 trillion in combined value. So, that’s another thing to note, as well.

Also, China, in the past, have made oversea investment. Some of them are successful, some of them are not so successful. I mean, the success story we can recall is, for example, like a private car maker, Geely, acquired Volvo from Ford Moto in 2010. I mean, Volvo’s industry knowledge has been a huge leverage to improve Geely’s performance at home. And, also, computer manufacturing, Lenovo, made a similar keynote acquisition in 2005, when it bought IBM Personal Computer Division, and this really increased the market share for them globally. And the last fact I want to share with you is the Chinese consumer market, which has 400 million middleclass, but this is important but, China has 1.4 billion people. So, there are still one billion people on the way to become middleclass in medium to long-term. And foreign smartphone brands once enjoy about 90% share of China’s domestics smartphone market, but as comparable, Chinese device become more available in China, like Huawei, Xiaomi and the other brand, in 2019, just before pandemic, Huawei hold about 36% of market share in China and the other Chinese company hold about 50%. And the top foreign player, like Apple, is drawn 6%. So, the foreign smartphone brands decrease their market share in China from 90% to 10%.

So, what does all this mean? I share with you this fact. I think that mean few things. The first is from a Chinese CEO perspective, when they look at Western companies, they are in transition in – on their view. What I mean by in transition is that the Chinese CEO, they are in transition from learning as a student of Western companies to be learning as colleagues of Western companies. Again, they are not looking for dominance, but respect, I think, and more respect from Western counterpart. They knew they are very big. They are very, very big and potentially, they can get even bigger. In business, size does matter and at the same time, they knew, as I share the fact with you, despite the huge size that not most sophisticated firm, when they’re comparing with the UK-US top companies. They want the company to be better managed and more innovative and this is the area for them to learn and for them to co-operate. And that’s the first point, I think what they are looking, when they’re looking at the West companies, they are in transition.

And secondly, I think recently, and certainly after pandemic, they are more domestically focused for the big Chinese companies. The reason being China is such a huge market and is growing so fast. Basically, they found out they are sitting on a goldmine, which they can’t ignore and so, they are very familiar with Chinese rules, with Chinese culture. So, ,a lot of the energies they are focusing on is how to become – increase the market share, first in China, and then look outside of China. So, that’s the view, currently, they – a lot of senior people of the Chinese company are holding, and this is nothing wrong with it.

For example, if you look at the history of American corporations, a lot of American companies really first dominate in America, first, because they are so big, including the law firms. They have lot of big clients and they become super, super big and very profitable, and then they use the money they earn domestically to venture into overseas, because by investing overseas, it’s experiment and the experiment bring failures. But doesn’t matter if they have a huge practice or huge balance sheet from China, doesn’t matter whether they win or lose in oversea market, because there is not a significant impact on their profit or loss. So, that’s what they are looking, it’s very domestic, the focus.

If there are companies, which will help them to increase their competitiveness inside Chinese market, they will go for it. They will do the deal. They will buy the company. They were acquiring the company overseas. But I think, over years, I found they are become very mature. They’re not easily become excited about a new target, and they evaluate of that target very carefully, according to the plan and they’re realistic, as well. They’re not going to buy a company, which is not welcome by the target country, as well. So, that’s my view that Chinese CEO towards the West, the first is in transition, the second is there will be a more domestic focus.

Vincent Ni

Fantastic. Thanks very much, Peter. We’ve heard from the diplomatic view and more historic overview of how things have changed. We’ve also heard from how the mood has changed among Chinese businesses and what their opportunity these days. What about ordinary Chinese people? Yu Jie, over to you.

Dr Yu Jie

Well, that’s a really big ask, Vincent, for me to represent 1.4 billion here, but good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Really delighted to see so many of you return to Chatham House, and let me also thanks to my colleague, who have put this event together.

Now, at the time when I actually decided to put this event together, and what the ideas we have in here is, we’re not really intend to shape your view, your audience view towards China and we’re not intend to change your view towards China, because that’s really up to the public diplomacy job to do by the Chinese Diplomats and the Chinese Government. But instead, what we’re very keen to explore in here today is to explore that sense of view from the – of grounded view from the Chinese ordinary population. Now, it’s down to my task today to wear both the hat just being a Researcher, as well as being a Chinese Millennial, you know, for those who were born in the middle 80s, and try to gauge exactly what is the mood among the Chinese young people nowadays, in here.

Now, as many of you may consider that perhaps there’s a hardening view from the Chinese youngsters and towards the West started from the pandemic. Actually, things is already getting really shaky right after – in the aftermath of the Global Financial Crises and the West is no longer really being seen as a beacon of hope and freedom anymore, and instead, and what many of the Chinese overseas students have witnessed so far, is perhaps, really, the flaws, the fundamental flaws, of democratic system, as well. And this just a partial view for many of the students who have studied abroad and studied in UK and United States. One of the students of my – former students of mine at LSE was even asked me, “Why this country want to vote out of the European Union for no economic future? I’m afraid – I mean, this really sound – for me, seems that sense of reality and come back to five years out and this debate on Brexit, we still continue to have this debate.” So, a single question being asked by the Chinese students in here.

Now, another view they have is perhaps this given what Sylvie and Peter said, there’s enormous economic might, economic confidence, and that perhaps also boasting the Chinese Government’s political confidence and therefore, boasting ordinary population’s confidence towards own country. So, just use a number, I do not use the Chinese data in here, I use the American data, which is the data being issued by University of California, China Data Lab, suggested and they have interviewed around 20,000 Chinese urban citizens from 2019 and 2020. So, 2019, and the question was, “How many of you would like to live under Chinese political system?” and the answer was around 70%. And now, the university asked the same number again in May 2020 and the number has raised to 83%, and bearing in mind, these are just the urban citizens and that is, you know, well-travelled and see the world and that’s the answer they get. So, this is some sense of enormous confidence within the political system.

Now, this come to Western media narrative and that switches another angle. The Chinese nowadays seems to have that very strong frustration and almost, like, agony that ask one key question, why China has not really been respected abroad? And this question I’ve been asked it so many time, and every time, when I give lectures in China, again and again. Now, the answer is really far from being, you know – it’s very hard to explain why China is not being respected. But certainly, one thing which strikes me is that, nowadays in China, the celebrities, the so-called TikTok celebrities, and perhaps in this part of the world, are footballers, you know, Marc [means Marcus] Rashford, or Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo. However, in China and the world of celebrities, the celebrities are spokesperson of the Chinese Foreign Ministry. Why? Because he’s able to speaking tough towards the foreigners. So, that’s exactly that sense of narrative and produced a very angry Chinese generation, that Chinese younger generation would much hope its country should be well-respected.

Another element in here is perhaps again associated with the economic growth that China has produced in the past decade. If you ask average Chinese citizens, like myself or like many others, “How has your life been changed in your lifetime?” So the answer, perhaps for those who were born in the 50s, and the answer would be quite obvious, and because one could never imagine have his own private property and one could perhaps never imagine have his own private cars, of – private vehicles, as well. So, that is the question and that is the answer they get, because they have experienced something which they have not experienced in the past and their life has shifted dramatically. So, I think that’s perhaps part of reason why the ordinary Chinese citizens have some kind of confidence towards this government.

But how this going to bring us to the foreign affairs front? The difficulties in here is, nowadays, we’re facing an extremely angry Chinese younger generation that would like to speak tough towards the West and this generation of the Chinese young people are well-travelled and mostly have obtained their higher education abroad and usually in the leading UK or US universities. And those people, ultimately, within 20 years’ time, they will become the de facto decision-makers of China, and they already have that negative perception towards the West, and I could only imagine what kind of policy they will be able to driven.

Now, so far, with the United States, what we have is we have the policymakers in their 70s and 80s and these are the China specialists from Biden’s administration and those people have also travelled China and know China very well at the same time, but this have not really provide a positive perception towards China, judging by the policy result. And equally, also for the Chinese young people and when they become the policymakers one day, and their policy towards United States and I can only imagine the disastrous consequences and they’d like to produce.

So, my conclusion down here is the biggest worry for the Western policymakers nowadays, it is not the current Chinese leadership, but instead, it is the very angry and organised Chinese younger generation and perhaps one day, when they rule the country, and they will also result in rather unfavourable policy towards the West, as well. So, I end it in here and much look forward to hear your questions and comments.

Vincent Ni

Fantastic. Fascinating insights, Yu Jie. Thank you so much to our speakers. We’ll open up the floor to the audience very shortly and please do have your questions coming into the ‘Q&A’ function. And, also, a reminder that this event is being recorded, it’s held on the record, and you can also use #CHEvents to tweet about it. Now, if your question is being selected, we’ll ask you to unmute yourself and put your questions live, but if you prefer me to read out your question on your behalf, please also indicate, so in the ‘Q&A’ box.

Whilst waiting for questions to coming – to come through, I’d also like to take the liberty of being the Chair to ask a few questions to our panellists. All very fascinating perspectives and perhaps slightly worrying, as well. Yu Jie, I want to just start with you. When did things start to change? You say young Chinese people are not necessarily holding a favourable view of the West. When did you see the turning point of this perception? This is the first question. Second question is now, obviously, as you said, it is – China is a vast country with 1.4 billion people and there is a huge difference between rural and urban population, so what’s the division here? You know, how similar and dissimilar views between urban young Chinese people and the rural young Chinese people is? And to Sylvie, it’s slightly worrying that you mentioned Cold War. I wanted to hear – have your view, as a Senior Diplomat, where do you think this is going to lead us to and what are the implications for the younger generation growing up in peace and in prosperity and in China? And last, but not the least, to Peter, you talked about China’s impressive rise in global commerce and if the geopolitical environment is turning more hostile and negative towards China, how are these businesses navigating this very tricky territory? Yu Jie, over to you.

Dr Yu Jie

Oh, thank you, Vincent, and great question. I would actually say the turning point started from 2008, and the aftermath of the financial crises, that I remember that was the year that China hosted Beijing Olympics, and I was sitting in London, at LSE and finish my master dissertation. And that sense of pride that Chinese overseas students seems to enjoy, it seems to be enormous and that’s one thing. And secondly, then, there’s immediate financial crises and for some reason, because the Chinese Government managed to issue that for RMB¥4 trillion stimulus package and managed to keep the economies sustain itself. Whereas, on the other hand, you see a massive numbers of redundancy, you see a massive numbers of unemployment happen in the West and then, all these Chinese students realise perhaps the future are not necessarily lies in the West and tried looking for a job and stay in this country or in United States, or for whatever the reason, and perhaps their economic future lies by going back home. And then, I think it’s because that sense of economic division and create perception, the perception that is about the West decline. But I think that perception is a false one, because it’s so hard to argue whether the West is in decline or not. I mean, I don’t want to draw a firm conclusion for that, because I think that false dichotomy is just wrong and therefore, produced a very wrong policy by certain members of the Chinese Government, and leading towards very hostile, assertive foreign policy and that’s also damage China’s international reputation at the same time. So, I think the turning point really started from 2008 financial crises.

Now, on your question regarding the division between the provincial view and also the coastal provinces’ view, it’s very hard. I mean, I have to say China is actually a pluralistic society and far more pluralistic than the Western media being portrayed and then, each individual citizens has his own complaints and anger about government. You know, things are all high property price, things – or never have enough secondary school and all those complaints runs along, but I think there’s a very clear division between how China has see itself domestically and this, also, this unilateral view that – how China see itself externally. So, I think you see much differences, in terms of view and domestically between the coastal provinces’ citizens and also, for the people who live in the villages and live in the inland provinces, but when they come to foreign affairs, when it comes about China’s international image, it seems to be that answer come to more universal and more straightforward, I would say.

Vincent Ni

Right, thank you. I think Fernando has a question related to what you have just said. Shall we cue Fernando first, Fernando Herrero, to follow-up with a further question to Yu Jie, and then we’ll go to Peter and Sylvie to hear their insights [pause]? Fernando?

Fernando Herrero

Hello, can you hear me?

Vincent Ni

Yes, loud and clear. Please go ahead.

Fernando Herrero

Well, lovely. Well, first off, I would like to say congratulations for this programme, because I think it’s the – this type of perspective is very much needed, particularly in the current climate, in which what we hear about China is mostly negative news. So, we thoroughly need a wider, richer perspective.

I would have one question and I’m going to be a little bit cheeky and ask a second, because I want to know. The first question is, I would immensely appreciate the names of one or two intellectuals or scholars, particularly about foreign affairs, from the Chinese perspective, and now because I would simply like to read more about how different scholars, whether they are in the political hierarchy or not, how they see the West or how they see foreign relations and international relations. I do read, sometimes, the messages by the Chinese Embassy, but I would appreciate one or two names for me to read.

And second, what is happening with COVID in China? If you look at the news in Britain, we have – I may have missed it, I may have misplaced my glasses, but I haven’t seen absolutely anything in the British media, and/or the West, about COVID in China. So, I would appreciate some comments about that. And thank you very much and congratulations, again.

Dr Yu Jie

Right, Vincent, I think you know first question answer better than I do, given your latest BBC podcast on Henry Kissinger went to China. For any of you who have not listened, I highly recommend it.

Now, regarding China scholars, interestingly, Foreign Affairs magazine, this morning just published its latest issue about China, about COVID-19. So, the two leading Chinese scholars have written two very strong pieces and solid pieces there and have looked and perhaps you will understand, almost like the authoritative view – authoritative academic view on China’s view towards the United States. So, Professor Wang Jisi and Professor Xuetong and these are two I highly recommended to follow their work, and I’m pretty sure the others in the panel would agree with me at the same time, yeah.

Vincent Ni

And just to follow-up on the question on where we can get news on China’s COVID situation, Fernando, I think my employer, The Guardian, has been running a COVID live blog every day, so I would highly recommend you to read The Guardian and also go to the live blog. We’ve got dedicated staff updating the situation on the COVID from around the world, including from China. Thank you very much, Fernando, for your question and thank you to Yu Jie for your insight. Why don’t we go to Sylvie to address the second question on the so-called Cold War?

Sylvie Bermann

Yeah, but before that, I would like to react to what Yu Jie has said about, well, angry young Chinese, and I think you can see that in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as well, the wider group, because you have the generation of the wolf warriors, who are very aggressive against the West, and you have more traditional Diplomats, like Cui Tiankai, who is living now the US, who is more cautious and who is trying to have a co-operation, more than confrontation.

Well, the Cold War, of course it’s very different to the Cold – traditional Cold War and the difference, also, was that Soviet Union was not so much involved in the economy of the world. It was like an economic door. But at the same time, politically, we had better relations with the EU – with Soviet Union than we have now with China. It was an adversary, but we managed to have more pragmatic relationship. I think the tensions arising now are very dangerous and it’s, kind of, watches to see this trap with the confirmed power, who doesn’t accept the rise of another power. It doesn’t mean that there’s no questions or problems about China, while there is more and more cyberattacks and there is economic competition, but there’s also this ideological dimension, which I think is dangerous. I think we should accept that there is coexistence between democracies and authoritarian regimes. We are not going to change that. It doesn’t matter – it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t rise the question of human rights, but we should avoid, I think, this aggressivity, or even the one, the policy of sanctions, because I think it leads nowhere, and on the contrary, there is escalation.

We should compare with Russia, for instance, when there’s a lot of sanctions against Russia, that’s – well, they just mirror the sanctions in their country’s sanctions. It’s not the case of China, because they changed it, it is outraging because there hasn’t been any sanctions from the West since 1989 and now they can’t accept it and that’s what they tell us. And oh, in a certain way, we can understand them, as well, so, I think it is not the right tool and we should avoid this Cold War and find ways of dialogue.

Vincent Ni

Fantastic, thanks very much. Peter, I think we would all agree that the mood is changing, and the geopolitical situation is changing as well, but for your circle of friends, businesses, CEOs and entrepreneurial Chinese citizens, how are they navigating this changing atmosphere?

Peter Lu

Yes, thank you, Vincent. I wrote a article last year and which is published on the Financial News. I called the article, it’s “One Company, Two System,” which I borrow from “One Country, Two System.” I think you ask a very, very critical question. It’s very difficult for multinationals, be it a Chinese company or Western company, to operate, because it’s almost impossible for them to cut the other market. I mean, US is probably still the biggest market for a lot of big company multinational, but China is rising, and it’s become second biggest and is closing the gap, as well. So, it’s not really possible for a company saying that “I don’t want Chinese market,” or for China say, “Look, I don’t want the Western market.”

I think the suggestion and – I had for my clients and my friends in the commercial world was that “Be sensitive to the, you know, the sentiment of the people and the culture.” I think respect is the word I would use, because respect really goes a long way. When I advise my Chinese clients, I always saying that, you know, “When you go overseas, respect the rules, respect laws and beyond that, even respect, like, ESG, social responsibility, which is very dear to the Western society, as well.” And I think for the Western companies, is the same. When they go to China, be alive and sensitive the national sentiment and the culture, as well, and the history, as well. I think that’s the first point.

And the second point is that in terms of legal, in the future, they will – we will see increasing amount of conflict, and not military perhaps, I hope not, but in terms of laws. For example, if China pass a law and the US pass another law, which direct against China, and then China pass another law direct against the US. So, when you operate commercially, you got to be really, really careful. For multinationals, they used to have one confined programme for the whole company. I don’t think it’s going to work in the future. It need to be very sophisticated. They need to look at the compliance programme. That’s what I said, one company, two systems. You need have a compliance programme in China locally to comply with Chinese laws and another side to comply with the US. It’s not going to eliminate all the risk, but you know, reduce risk as minimal as possible.

So, the first point is respect go for a very long way. The second point is that the company need to carefully operate their law, legal and the compliance programme going forward, just because the conflict law.

Vincent Ni

Great, thank you. I think Dina has a question, sort of relating to what you just said. Dina, would you like to ask yourself to Peter [pause]? Dina Mufti. Dina, you’re on mute [pause]. Dina, you’re on mute. I think we run into some technical problem. Anyway, I can ask this question on Dina’s behalf. “Will China provide the legal protections for foreign investors in Chinese companies? Are China’s top technology companies going to be allowed to grow bigger? What is mitigating their growth, and which companies are the Chinese Government investing in?” Since we are in the territory of business, Peter, would you like to take this question? Let’s just start from the last one, “Which companies are the government investing in?” I think the government’s investment into certain companies also showed what kind of strategies they are coming up with, right?

Peter Lu

Yes, I mean, in China, there are a large amount of state-owned companies and there are also a large amount of private companies: Tencent, Alibaba, all those big names are funded by, actually, Wall Street, or a Japanese company like SoftBank. So, they are big names in China and maybe that’s one of the reason they become very good as well, because they learn the management from their – the sponsors. So, that’s on the technology front.

And on the state-owned company front, we have the big energy companies and commercial company and financial institutions, which are the state-owned company, which are very important for what we call the critical infrastructure for China, which it’s – they are going through the reform. They called mixed shareholder reform, or something like that, which means a private company, like Alibaba, can send a load to invest into those big companies, state-owned company, and – but I’m not sure they are – they will be the majority shareholder of those companies.

So, I see this will be going forward – will be the continues of the trend. I don’t think it’s going to change in any way. I think China will allow this dual track. One is owned by state for critical infrastructure and the other one is more innovative firms and companies, like BYD, which produce electrical vehicle, which is a great company, but privately owned, yeah.

Vincent Ni

Great, thank you. I think Sam, Sam Martin, has a question to our panellist [pause]. And Nicholas, Nicholas Wu?

Nicholas Wu

[Pause] Good evening, everybody. Thank you for having me and thank you very much for speaking on this very interesting seminar. My question to all the panellists is this. Do you think that the young Chinese of today, by the time they take power in one or two decades’ time, will be more open to taking more global responsibility, or rather be even more responsibility in global affairs? So, for example, on issues like climate change and geopolitical turmoils, like North Korea, which I appreciate the current Chinese Government is already taking an interest in, but I’m talking about even more interest? Do you think that is going to change with the fact that the young Chinese are so active nowadays and certainly more active than before?

Vincent Ni

Do the panel want to respond? Nick, and which – who are you addressing this question to?

Peter Lu

I think Nick want to ask all the panel.

Vincent Ni

Yes, so…

Nicholas Wu

Yeah, anybody, anybody.

Vincent Ni

Great, yeah.

Nicholas Wu

Not specifically.

Peter Lu

Maybe, listen, if I – it’s okay, I will take.

Vincent Ni

Yes, please, yes.

Peter Lu

Well, thank you, Nick. Nick is a partner in a well-known law firm, as well. So, to answer your question, I think so, Nick. I think that the new generation, they are very well-educated, and they are very vocal about the issues, such as environmental, green and LGBT, so you know, they are – their attitudes are changing. I can give you example, I got friends who are much younger and come to my house to have dinner and I remember she was saying, “Oh, Peter, you should turn down the heating, because it’s too hot. You’re hot and it’s bad for the environment.” So, you know, I was, kind of, shocked by these sort of comments, but actually, when you talk to the Millennials and the new generation, they are very much very conscious about ESG and the green issues. I think they will take a global responsibility about that, as well.

But the trouble I’m seeing is that I agree with Dr Yu Jie, that there are a certain attitude or hostile in very younger generation of – China younger generations towards the West. I think this need to address, because otherwise, I think it will be going to be a mixed feeling, and one of the things they don’t like is that because they are so well-educated, they are so well-informed, they travel before pandemic and they have, lot of them have been educate in the UK and in the US, in top – in numerous cities, they know what’s going on. But what they have seen is that it’s almost one – the Western media reporting on China is one-sided story. I think that’s the big problem and they feel resentment about that. So, I think that’s the issue really need to address, and you know, you from law firm, I from law firm, I mean, we both know that, as a Partner of law firm, we have the limited time of the career. Beside you know, take on the clients, we need to mentor the young generations, the young Associate, the young Trainees, and we can’t just criticise them every time we have a provisional meeting with them, so – because they will run, and they won’t work for us. And I think that’s the same, I think those generations are open – are okay with criticism and they know the problem in China, but I think it’s not okay just talking about criticism and turning a blind eye like other area, like poverty reduction and all the improvement, which people made in China, and that’s how I feel.

Vincent Ni

That’s an interesting perspective, Peter, and I wanted – Sylvie, as a Diplomat, as a Western Diplomat, how do you see this issue? If young Chinese people are so – and here’s also one of the attendees asking this question, you know, how do young people who appear to be disparaging the West see problems that are being highlighted by Western media? For example, you know, in recent years, this issue of Xinjiang, if Chinese people, young Chinese people, are so resentful, how do Western Diplomats and Western governments address these issues, address their concerns?

Sylvie Bermann

Well, I’m afraid we don’t addressing the question now, on the contrary, but it’s true that we’ve been told, including by young Chinese coming back to China, that in fact, they come back more nationalist than before, because of this resentment and because the way we are talking about China in the West. But I think it’s very difficult for China to – for the West to realise that, because of the media cover and it’s just one-sided, as you said. And it’s very difficult to convince people to change their view of China and have, well, of course, something about Xinjiang or something about Hong Kong, but also about the achievements of China. And I think this situation is very dangerous, because we thought, on the contrary, that the more students you send abroad and the more Westernised they come back, and it appeared to be the contrary and I think it’s a serious issue.

Vincent Ni

Hmmm hmm. There’s a follow-up question from Fidor and, “To what extent is the anger of young Chinese due to personal negative experiences, i.e., racism, in the West, or to perceived criticisms of Chinese policies, such as Hong Kong Uighurs, or to China’s Politicians’ criticism of Western democracies? Please ask the question on my behalf.” So, we just asked a question on Fidor’s behalf. Who would like to answer this question first? Yu Jie, please.

Dr Yu Jie

Let me give a go on this one. I think the combination of reasons of both this, kind of, Asian hate and together with the so-called different media narratives that’s been presented towards China, and then, also, we can’t ignore the element, this element of propaganda from the Chinese Government, as well. So, I think the three factors combine together and bring up the scenario where we are today. I mean, even speaking in my personal experience, just in the beginning of the pandemic and the sheer amount of attack I got from my neighbour just because let me to go back to my own country, is enormous. Just make me wonder one day, why do I even want to live in this country anymore? I mean, it’s just the personal experience sometimes has been so large and make you find very hard to ignore.

But then, on the other hand, I think it’s almost like the further you try to corner China, the further that Western media try to call China’s certain behaviour and the more angry that the Chinese young people have become. So, I think it’s almost like a vicious circle, one way or another. I don’t really see an immediate solution for that.

And also, for example, Chinese themselves, I mean, especially the Chinese media and also the Chinese, I would call it, think tankers and intellectuals, are very hard to communicate with the wor – outside world and they don’t really apply the – it’s not just a language issue. It is the logic that be able to speak to the Western audience and that sense of logic and that sense of link is missing from the Chinese intellectual and also from the think tankers. So, I think there’s that gap is missing and therefore, to be able to fill that vacuum, it will have a long way to go.

Vincent Ni

This is not a clash of world views, for example, you know. When you talk about Western media, the Western media also think what they are doing is totally justifiable, because if that’s truth, that’s truth, you know, we need to report them. But then, you know, when the news feeds back to China and you have these very angry responses, how do you, sort of, you know, mitigate the kind of, a difference in understanding?

Dr Yu Jie

Well, I mean, “Seeking the truth from the fact,” that’s the old saying, old China saying, seeking the truth from fact, that’s one thing. And secondly, stop reading Global Times. I just can’t tell you how damaged that Global Times has been to China’s international image and I can guarantee that, you know, less than 30% of the Chinese population will read the Global Times, I’m afraid. So, let’s not just assume that Global Times’ view represent China view. It only represent a slice, a part of China view.

Vincent Ni

We’re about to run out of time. Why don’t we take two more questions and our panels – our panel speakers will address both questions? So, why don’t we go to Alistair, first, please, Alistair Keane.

Alistair Keane

[Pause] Hello.

Vincent Ni

Alistair, yes, please.

Alistair Keane

Hi, good afternoon and thank you very much for the opportunity and all the panellists for their very interesting perspectives. So, my question, kind of, stemming from the 2008 Olympics, as I think someone mentioned. It was, kind of, a very significant moment for China, in which it was clear to me, as a Western viewer, that China was – it was an opportunity for China to mould itself and frame a version fit for Western consumption, an opportunity to, kind of, yeah, mould itself. So, my question would be, is since that, is China, kind of, seeking vindication from the West for its own economic style and its own policies that it’s pursuing? So, we see with the Belt and Road Initiative, for example, that China’s emphasising a policy of social harmony, as Xi Jinping has, himself, made known that he’s, kind of, adapting these, kind of, traditional Confucian principles into the modern age. So, that would be, yeah, my question, is China seeking, kind of, to influence the Western liberal institutions and to, kind of, reform and adapt to – and mould it towards a kind of, Chinese way of thinking?

Vincent Ni

Thank you very much, Alistair. Next, let’s go to James, James Tudor-White.

James Tudor-White

Good afternoon and I’d just like to say thank you for this really fascinating panel discussion. I was actually just at an event with the IIS, previously to this, and we were talking about the security roles and the potential of the Arctic in the future.

So, China are declaring themselves in their Arctic power and whilst China has observer status at the Arctic Council, the first projection was the result of the Council not knowing what observer status should look like. It was then accepted once that had been clarified. It never received the full membership, which it has long wanted. Is there a potential that as China becomes more active in the Arctic, with naval exercises, follow-ups and co-operation with Russia, its exclusion from full membership status could further serve to damage Western-China relations, creating almost a China versus the West vis-à-vis relationship, rather than the co-operative approach with China, which is needed in the Arctic?

Vincent Ni

That’s a more specific question.

Sylvie Bermann

Can I ans…?

Vincent Ni

Where shall we start? Yes, Sylvie, please.

Sylvie Bermann

Yeah, maybe I can answer this question because I was posted in Moscow and each time the Chinese were talking about the Silk Polar Road, they protested, because they thought that, well, it was Russian. And now, in fact, all the world is interested in Arctic, so, anyway, there might be an agreement between the Russians and the Chinese. And that’s the first point.

The other point was about influencing other countries. I don’t think that the Chinese are dreaming of the influencing democratic countries. I mean, they perfectly know we are not going to change our system. But well, at the same time, in Africa and in the Middle where – in the Middle East, it’s not that they want to influence or impose their model, but to show that it’s more efficient than our system. And what happened, also, in the West, with Trumpism and all what he said, it showed that democracies could be a chaos, without mentioning the attack against the capital, when they see Yellow Jackets also in France and when they saw Brexit, and so, they’re explaining – and not considering colour revolutions, as well. And so, they explain to their people, well, you can call it propaganda, that the – and that democracy means chaos, but again, they don’t want to change our views on that.

Vincent Ni

Right. Who’s next? Yu Jie, would you like to take the other question?

Dr Yu Jie

Oh, well, okay, I’ll take the question on international order. I mean, China tried to change the World Order, but that’s really back to the 60s and 70s, but it failed miserably. And I think the Communist Party learnt very hard lesson that itself simply just cannot change the World Order. It doesn’t have the capability in, firstly, and secondly, in order to change the World Order, it needs to have followers and China doesn’t have follower at the moment, on this specific political system. So, the jury’s out and whether China be able to succeed in its own way, we don’t know. I mean, let’s see what’s going on in the next decade for the Chinese Communist Party, no.

Another thing is, perhaps, China is not really seeking to change the international order, not to revolutionise it completely, but instead, taking a very much à la carte approach on the one hand, to choose the area where it like to collaborate with the West, you know, things on global governance and economic issues and more in line with the West. But then, when they come to issues on cybersecurity, maritime security, I think China is the total outlier. So, it’s very much à la carte approach to see which one it fits, rather than a wholesale of revolutionised international system as a whole.

Vincent Ni

We’re running out of time. We are really over time, so – but I thought this is a very good end thought to today’s discussion. We don’t necessarily always agree with each other, China and the West, but I guess that’s okay, as this panel discussion showed in the last hour, as long as we keep asking these questions, sometimes tough and challenging questions and listen to each other’s perspectives from both sides. That is my biggest takeaway from the last hour. Thank you to the panel of speakers, stellar panels: Sylvie Bermann, and Peter Lu, and Yu Jie, and thanks to all those who asked great questions. I’m sorry we didn’t manage to go through every single question you asked, but I hope we will find another occasion to address your questions. And please do also join future conversations on China and the West. And that’s it from me and from this afternoon’s event: China’s View of the West. Thank you very much, everyone, for attending. Goodbye.