The future of liberal democracies: In conversation with Margot Wallström

Dr Robin Niblett CMG

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this next in our Chatham House series on The Future of Liberal Democracies. I’m Robin Niblett, Director of Chatham House. I have a very simple job today, which is actually to introduce the series again and say how thrilled we are to be collaborating with Jeremy Hunt MP on this series, an idea that he brought to us and that we’ve been working on collectively now, and will do through the course of the year, to really discuss this huge challenge we face globally, where liberal democracies seem to be at bay in multiple ways at the moment, and to discuss them in particular with former Senior Officials who have had the experience of being on the frontline of trying to ensure that the interests of liberal democracies remain strong and are promoted as such. This is the beginning of Chatham House’s second century, this year, and making sure that liberal democracy remains strong and that they are critical to well-functioning, rules-based international system is one of our big priorities, so I will say again, Jeremy, we’re thrilled to be partnering with you on this project.

I will say for those of you not with us at the end of the meeting, that our next meeting will take place on the 4th of May, where William Hague will be interviewing Hillary Clinton, Former US Secretary of State, as well. But for today, it is our very great honour and pleasure to be welcoming Margot Wallström and I know, Jeremy, you will be doing the introduction yourself, but I just want to say on my behalf and my colleagues at Chatham House, how pleased we are, Margot, to have you with us. Really looking forward to your perspectives, as well.

Just so Jeremy doesn’t have to do it, a few process things. This meeting is on the record, not under the Chatham House Rule, and you can, therefore, obviously use it in any social media function that you would like. Tweet #CHEvents if you wish and submit, please, your questions through the ‘Q&A’ function. Don’t use the ‘Chat’ function or the raise hand function, which are disabled. Please use the ‘Q&A’ function and we will get to your questions either through Jeremy himself asking them, or if we can bring some of you online, we will as well. So, with that, I’m going to hand over. Jeremy, over to you to manage the meeting. Great, Margot, again to have you with us. Bye-bye.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you very much, Robin, and may I say that I’m absolutely delighted to be partnering with Chatham House on this incredibly important issue of The Future of Open Societies and Liberal Democracies. There is nowhere better to be doing it and, indeed, you always put together the most distinguished audiences for these events. Even though we can’t see you in the flesh, but we are particularly thrilled today to welcome Margot Wallström, who was Foreign Minister of Sweden, it has to be said, for rather longer than I was Foreign Secretary in the UK, but we Foreign Ministers meet very regularly and there are some people that you look forward to meeting and others perhaps less so, but because you’re a Diplomat, you don’t always say so. And Margot was always one of the people that I looked forward to meeting, because she is not just very experienced and wise, but also very open and she was not just Foreign Minister, she was Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden, she was the Vice President of the European Commission and she was the first United Nations Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict. So, there are lots and lots of things to talk about this afternoon. Very warm welcome to you, Margot. I’ve got – I want to start with something personal, if I may, and just to ask you how was lockdown? I know you’ve got a log cabin in somewhere very remote in Sweden and I have this vision of you hiding behind the snow, watching episodes of The Bridge, but how has it actually been for you over the last year?

Margot Wallström

Thank you very much, Jeremy, and thank you for that warm welcome, and I’ve been looking forward to this, seeing you again and being able to talk about some very important subjects. Well, lockdown for me has been very much enjoying nature and I have found a lot of comfort in nature, because we live by a lake and we also have our log cabin in the North of Sweden, and it means that we can take long walks. We’ve been able to enjoy the forest and do all of those things, so be outdoors, and that helps your health, as well. But, of course, some Netflix series and books have helped, as well.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

And are you a fan of The Bridge?

Margot Wallström

Yes, absolutely, I think I have, as you, seem to have watched all of the episodes of the series and I really like them. They are well done, yeah.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Great. Well, message from the UK, we’d love another series, if you’re feeling up to it in Sweden and Denmark. But perhaps that time with nature gives you a chance to think about things and perhaps gives you a chance to escape from issues that you’d rather not think about. Maybe I can start with one of the latter, which is something you and I talked about many times, which is Brexit. And I remember saying to you quite often that if the EU drove too hard a bargain with Theresa May’s Government, it wouldn’t get through Parliament and we’d end up with the hardest of Brexits, and that’s pretty much what happened. I just wonder, looking back on that very painful period now, do you think things could’ve been handled differently?

Margot Wallström

Oh, looking back, I guess we all admit that things could have been done differently. But I – we here, also, in Sweden, we looked at this with kind of horror and big sadness, because we have always thought of the UK as one of our most important partners and allies, and we have so much to do with each other, you know, from trade to people who work in the UK and those who come here. So, I think that – and also for the whole of the European Union, this was such an unhappy event and, of course, a very drawn-out process. But you remember that I also told you that I think, for many years, there were so many lies and outright lies, but also myths and statements made about the European Union and very few voices in support of EU membership in the UK, so I think that that is what creates, also, a culture of – well, a debate which is not always correct and with a lot of exaggerations on both sides, I guess, and a bad climate for negotiations.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

But do you think, from the EU side, the approach should’ve been different when you look back on what happened, or do you think it was just inevitable that we would end up with the kind of conflict that we had?

Margot Wallström

Nothing is inevitable, you know, nothing is decided by destiny, but the way we act and deal with it, so I think that on both sides, we needed, sort of, wise people who would be open about their interest. And, of course, for the European Union, it was a matter of keeping, also, the European Union together and at the same time, trying to get a deal with – and an agreement which was beneficial for, as much as we could, for both sides. But I guess on both sides, they tried to make an example of it, as well.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Let me just ask you about how we build bridges then, after the divorce, because one of my predecessors, William Hague, wrote an article in The Times on Tuesday, in which he said, “It is absolutely essential that we develop a constructive relationship,” but after a divorce that is very painful. And I mean, you once said, I hope you wouldn’t say this now, but you once said, “I cannot forgive the UK for Brexit,” and you’re one of the most Anglophile, reasonable Foreign Ministers that I dealt with. How do we build those bridges?

Margot Wallström

Well, I would say that it was a kind of, sardonic comment and I made it with a sad smile, at the same time, because, of course, I have to forgive you, because this will happen, but it was just an expression of the despair that we felt and the fact that this was going to happen. We were hoping that you would stay, and I think we have to live by the principle of do no harm, unnecessary harm. I think we should – we must develop all our, sort of, bilateral contacts, the diplomatic and other contacts, and I’m sure that the UK also now has to invest in building the diplomatic presence all around the world to make up, also, for otherwise being represented by the European Union. And I think we have to – people need people to people contacts and companies that are in contact, as well, as much as possible, and the cultural contacts as well. But one thing we don’t want to see, and I remember asking Boris Johnson about this as well, was, you know, if the UK now, sort of, in order to also make economic progress and so on, just skips all of the rules that we had agreed together, from environmental regulations to other ways of protecting workers or, sort of, economic interests, and if you think that you can compete by leaving all of this behind, then I think we are in a very bad situation.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

I mean, I want to ask you about world affairs, but I – just a couple more, if I may, on Brexit, which are things I think that prey on British minds, that there are some people who worry that there’s a very simple view in the EU that Brexit must be seen to fail to stop others wanting to follow suit, and to protect the unity of the institution, and we notice that, you know, China was offered a more favourable investment deal than the UK was in the Brexit negotiations. And those people worry that, ultimately, a friendly relationship is going to be impossible because of the view in Brussels that Britain needs to pay an ongoing economic price for its decision to leave. Is that fair?

Margot Wallström

No, not – yeah, that – no, that’s not fair. I do not believe that the countries and member states of the European Union are so short-sighted. They know what kind of role you have. They know the kind of economic and social and other ties that we have with the UK. They don’t want you to fail, because we will be affected by that, as well. So, no, I really don’t think so.

But I want to say something else that has to do with democracy, and I’ve reflected on this that, you know, often we see referendums as, sort of, the ultimate expression and tool for democratic control, but I think it’s also the most difficult, too, because unless you have provided citizens with, you know, full information and a process that engages them and allows them to make an informed, a truly informed decision, this can also make division between groups and the two sides in this case, in the UK, for generations to come, and we’ve seen it also in my country. I remember when we voted – when we had the referendum on the use of – on nuclear energy and, you know, it divided families, it divided party – political parties, it divided societies and it really made a mark and it was not a good thing. And it is not always the ultimate way, because you force people to take a position. You force them, if they have a democratic nerve, they want to participate, they want to do their duty, their democratic duty, but it also forces them to make a simplified choice, because it is a simplified way of solving a problem that goes very deep and will last for a very long time. So, that is also building a bridge between people in the UK and it’s clear that people have so different views on this. So, that is something to take care of, but we – I think, instead I think most member states understand that we have to live as friends and partners and neighbours and colleagues and allies, in every way, also when the UK has left.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Last question on Brexit, if I may, Margot. The UK had three very painful years of self-reflection, even self-flagellation, during the Brexit referendum, where we asked ourselves all sorts of existential questions about what we were as a country, what we stood for, what we believed in. On the EU side, there was a very strong view, this is basically, a British problem, caused by the British debate, and the lesson is more Europe, not less. What would you say to the charge that, you know, really, there’s been no thought on the EU side about the need for reform following the Brexit decision, and that in some ways, the EU establishment has been putting its head in the sand since Brexit, rather than facing up to the need for real reforms that make that union stronger?

Margot Wallström

Well, you know, I was the Commissioner for ten years, so, of course, I – my heart is very much with, you know, the Commission and with the European Union idea and ideas, and I think there is an – a constant ongoing reflection and this, of course, was a tough blow to the European Union. So, I think it has meant, also, in our country that we think a lot about what kind of European Union you left and that we will have to deal with and work with. So, I think it’s there, but we’ve also had so many very concrete problems and challenges to deal with, so I think we’ve been fully occupied with that, rather than having this kind of conversation about the future of the European Union. But as long as – I was there, for ten years, we constantly have felt both, sort of, threatened and had that debate about, well, the constitution or, you know, what have you, the treaties and the role of the European Union, to – how do we make it more democratic and so on? So, it was an ongoing debate, which is always a good thing, it makes us more vital. But now we’ve, of course, been busy with COVID and what have you and the economic crisis to handle, as well.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Let’s move on from something even more challenging than the future of Europe, which is the future of the world, and in the next decade, some people think as soon as 2028, something is going to happen for the first time in our lifetimes, which is for the first time ever, the largest economy in the world will not be a democracy, because that’s when the Centre for Economics and Business Research predicts that China will overtake the United States. And you pointed out in a speech a couple of years ago that for the first time in a generation, more people are living in countries with authoritarian tendencies than democratic tendencies. We all know that you can’t impose democracy from outside and that countries have to choose their own path, so what should we, as democracies, do to prepare for what is going to be a really massive change in the global balance of power?

Margot Wallström

Of course, the way China has developed and the way they are acting right now is an enormous task for the rest of the world to deal with, to find out how do we act together to meet the much more self-confident positioning of China, and they will also be an economic power, as you say, you know, double the – twice the size of the American economy. And I think that countries who are democratic countries, have built a democratic structure or elements of a democracy over time, they have to come together and that’s why I actually introduced what we called a “drive for democracy”, together with other countries, but also through all our diplomatic presence in the world, to make sure that we look after freedom of speech, the safety of Journalists, the women’s representation in political decision-making, etc., etc. And so, I think we really have to come together to speak about it, to talk, speak well about democracy and also, of course, we are stronger if we stick together and this will, again, be a role for the European Union, because they can drive a wedge between EU member states, if we allow them, if we don’t stick together and also position ourselves, and also put demands on the Chinese, because they always remind us about having access to our markets and so on, but then, it never goes the other way. So, we also have to insist on that and with the cumulative economic power that the EU has, we can make a difference and we – but I don’t see that China is, as you know very well, better than me, that China is not going in a democratic direction and I don’t think we will see that in a very long time. So, we will have to deal with the China that has risen and become much more profiled on the global scene in the last years.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

So, I think people can understand how democracies could work more closely together, for example, when it came to UN votes, or when it came to trade disputes, but if I just take that issue that you just raised, women’s rights, and you have been a formidable campaigner for human rights, but particularly focused on women’s rights. Let me ask you a really difficult question. When it comes to things like the forced sterilisation of Uighur women in China, is there anything democracies can actually do about it, given that China has made it absolutely clear that they don’t see us as having any right to talk about internal Chinese matters and it’s, essentially, none of our business and, in fact, they don’t even care what we think? When it comes to doing more than talking, is there anything we can actually do?

Margot Wallström

Well, we know that sanctions is a rather, sort of, blunt weapon. It’s not always effective, and very rarely does it change the behaviour. We know that from Russia and other examples, as well. But I think we have to – we should not be silenced. We have to formulate our own very clear message on what is acceptable and what is not. We have to, sort of, hunt them with – and take that as a symbolic way of saying that we will not give up on mentioning these things and demanding that they change their behaviour, and we will reveal it, we will write about it, we will talk about it, we will have that on our agenda, so in every meeting. And of course, in the end, we can use our economic – some economic arm twisting as well, but I know that it’s very difficult, as it has been with a country like Russia, also.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Well, I will come onto Russia, but can I just stay with China for a moment? Because during your period as Foreign Minister, you had to deal with the detention of Gui Minhai, who is a Swedish citizen who was a Bookseller in Hong Kong, who the Chinese State disapproved with. Now, he is still, I think, in detention in mainland China. What did you conclude from that about our ability to stand up for things like free speech?

Margot Wallström

Well, we are – he’s still in detention and I’m actually going to the Parliament the next week to report on how we dealt with that particular case. So, I will not go into details, but it was very helpful that other EU countries also put this on their agenda in every political diplomatic contact with China. Federica Mogherini, for example, brought this up and said that “We know this, and we stand side by side with Sweden on this.” So, we just have to insist on talking about it openly and continue to push. So, we have to stand our ground and we have to keep, sort of, the political dialogue going, and we have to be firm, also, on the principles and not leave them. And this is the downside of insisting that, for example, in the European Union, we should have more majority decisions, rather than using unanimity, because the minute we split up in smaller groups, it’s easier, also, for China to divide and rule and divide and I think that that’s what we should avoid. So, let’s co-ordinate our actions, let’s talk about it openly, insist on these reforms and, you know, human rights are universal. It’s not that any country can choose and say, “We choose only these rights, and we think that’s enough,” and this is also something to point out in our discussions with China, and not allow them to provide new definitions of democracy or human rights.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. Now, I want to talk about Russia and broader security issues, but just to remind everyone watching, if you want to ask questions, if you just submit them in the Chat function, then we will come to you in due course. Just one last question on China, which has been very topical in the UK in the last year, which is the question of technology. I know you’ve talked about the opportunities of new digital technologies and how transformative they can be, but are there also risks of technological dependency when it’s so hard to read what a country like China’s intentions are?

Margot Wallström

Yeah, yeah, we have seen it with 5G systems and networks being built and that has also been on the agenda of – for the European Union. And, again, if we can apply the same kind of thinking and both mindset and rules about this, we can make a difference, but of course, the wrath of the Chinese have hit also us, and they are very, very self – they are very conscious of their own role when they act, also, with – through our – the Diplomats and it has not been nice, it’s very nasty sometimes.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. Let me move on, if I may, to Russia and I just put to you the argument that’s now often made in America, that, you know, if you’re looking at these two big powers, China and Russia, China’s the one that’s going to overtake America economically, in terms of the size of its – overall size of its economy, Russia has an economy the size of Spain, and so, although Putin is an annoyance and indeed a risk, if you’re Ukrainian, in terms of Western European security, Russia is never really going to be a risk and we need to focus all our thinking on China, rather than on Russia. Is that a view that you, as someone who lives rather closer to Russia than most of the people on this video conference, share, or do you have a different view?

Margot Wallström

No, Swedes could not ignore Russia, because we meet the – those challenges almost every week with something. If it is hacking into even our sports organisations systems in order to smear Swedish sports, well, Swedish sports. And then, I think for Ukraine, this is a real threat, and we have to stand by the Ukrainians now. We have to do everything to support Ukraine and what exactly is the tactic behind the offensive that we see now? Nobody knows for sure, but of course, they want to – they would like to draw attention from something that happens and then, they can do these kind of moves. But I think we will have to continue to be vigilant and also, organise our work, both in support of the Ukraine and also, making sure that we don’t allow them more of adventures of the kind that we’ve seen from the Russian side.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Now…

Margot Wallström

But of course, if you look at the global level, I mean, it’s really – it’s the US and Russia that have most of nuclear weapons, for example.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Yeah.

Margot Wallström

And so, that…

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

I mean, we can have diplomatic initiatives, we can do sanctions, but in the end, there is a military angle to this. And I know Sweden isn’t part of NATO, but can I just ask you what you feel about the health of the NATO alliance? We have a situation where the American taxpayer is funding between a third and a half of the total cost of defending Europe and yet, we are building things like Nord Stream 2, or Germany, more precisely, is building Nord Stream 2, which is going to bring foreign currency to Russia. Do you think that we are getting this right? I think there was, you know, lots of people who didn’t like President Trump, but on that particular issue, the equity of contributions to the defence of Europe, didn’t he have a point?

Margot Wallström

Well, I think this is too – it’s one side. It’s really – you know, it’s not only about setting a figure of 2%. I mean, maybe we need 2% of foreign aid or development assistance, you know, if we are to fight pandemics or cyberattack – you know, the threats and the whole definition of security must be different. We have to adapt to that and of course, it would really make a difference if Germany looked at whether they need to be the biggest client for Russian gas, natural gas. This is the problem with Nord Stream, and we are militarily non-aligned, but we are a partner to NATO and it’s important the discussions about how NATO is going to act, also, in the future and it will – of course they are – I think what we see now is triggered by Ukraine’s wish to join NATO. That is something that will really upset the Russians and so, I don’t go into, sort of, measuring the results for NATO, but I’d be worried, also, about what happens in the UK with build-up of more nuclear warheads. That is – that will not help the kind of move that we need to see to nuclear disarmament, instead of modernising nuclear weapons.

So, I think that that – I think it’s a very – it’s obsolete to use a measurement like the 2% of military build-up, because to what? And look at now, what – the whole world is affected by a pandemic and how do we defend against that? So…

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

I’m sure we’ll…

Margot Wallström

…maybe it has served its purpose for some years, but today, this looks very – it’s – we have the threats from space or artificial intelligence, or more of those things, that we really need to take care of, human security.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

I’ve got, yes, I’ve got lots of people who want to ask you questions, and I made a mistake earlier. I said you can put your questions in the chat function. It’s the Q&A function that you put your questions in, and we will come to you and probably ask you to ask the questions to Margot in person. I’m just going to ask one last question, Margot, if I may, and it’s a very general open-ended question, but if you look at the last century, we ended up with the world much safer for democracy, for open societies, for civilised values, at the end of the century, than at the start of the century. The problem was the terrible cost we had to pay to get there with, you know, two World Wars, a Cold War, a holocaust. So, how do we get to the end of this century with the world equally safe, even safer, for open societies and democracies, but without having to pay that terrible price?

Margot Wallström

Well, this is – you know, we live in perilous times and I think we have so many challenges on so many fronts and I continue to believe that this is – you know, that democracy is the way forward and we have to then, as I said before, speak up for democracy and the different elements that build a society. We have to look out for the autocrats, the fact that, you know, that there are leaders today that are willing to change their constitutions to stay in power and I think, also, we have to work – show our belief and act in support of multilateralism, to really come as close as we can in building strength for our democratic systems. And we need free speech, we need good journalism, we need information, and we need to support – and women, I would say, as well, the role of women, because as long as half of the world’s population is so much discriminated against, or that there is so much violence against women, how can they fulfil their role of being actors of change in their countries or families or where they are? So, these are the sort of, principles that we need to apply. It’s up to us.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

When it comes – I was just going to say, when it comes to the future of democracy, are you glass half full, glass half empty, Swedish summer or Swedish winter?

Margot Wallström

I think it looks very much like winter, as it is today, but I have hopes for a young generation. I have hopes for the Gretas and the others, who see what the real problems are, and we need to do something about the environment and climate change and all of those things because they determine our life on this planet. But in addition to that, I see that people want to participate, they need information, they want to find a role for themselves. They want to live in democracies, those that can choose, want to live in democracies. So, this is also why it’s important for us as leaders to hold onto that and argue for that.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. Well, we’ve got lots of questions, so I’m going to start with Christina Stewart and then come to Thomas Cole. So, Christina, if you could ask your question.

Christina Stewart

[Pause] Thank you, it’s been a really great discussion. My question was linking back to what you mentioned on countries presenting a new definition of democracy and how the European Union can deal with that when it’s within its own borders, so for example, a liberal democracy new definition and the countries changing their constitution and if the EU can’t deal with that within its borders, how can it expect to with other countries? Thank you so much.

Margot Wallström

You know what, I have actually put out a kind of, challenge, because I believe that we need a kind of, updated definition of democracy, one that goes beyond the legalistic language, and I think we need, like, an inspiring formulation that captures what we take to heart from living in a democracy. And if you read, for example, Timothy Snyder and the book, “How Democracies Die,” then I think you understand what I mean. And I think maybe my own answer would be, you know, that we have to be proud of the system of decision-making, that we have to feel safe, because the institutions will defend our rights, and also engaged, because we know that our votes will be counted and will be heard. So, this is really – we need to understand that these autocratic leaders, many of them are elected and they are elected over and over again, so they claim that they came to power through democratic means, but they will then destroy many of the fundamentals of democracy, and I think that if you then have all the information, as a citizen, I think we stand a better chance of people not voting for those that just want to point with their hold – the whole.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. Thomas Cole next, and then Trisha de Borchgrave, and if you’re able to open your video, so we can see your face, we’d love to see you. But anyway, let’s move over to Thomas Cole and then after that Trisha. Thomas, I think you’re muted.

Thomas Cole

Yes, sorry, thank you. I’ll turn my video on, and apologies, I haven’t been able to have a haircut for a long time, due to the lockdown in the UK. My question, and I say this as somebody who used to work for the European Commission on the EU’s Eastern neighbourhood, is do you think that the continued military build-up by Russia, on the border with Ukraine or elsewhere, in countries in the EU’s Eastern partnership, will that ever lead to Sweden consider joining NATO? Thank you.

Margot Wallström

I don’t think that we will join NATO, and that is not the policy of this government, either, but, of course, there is – and I don’t think that there is support for that in the Swedish – among the Swedish public. But we are partners with NATO, so we work with NATO, but we don’t want to place ourselves under the nuclear umbrella of NATO either. So, I think, hopefully, we will keep – we will stick to our line. But I do believe, what you said was very important. I do believe that the European Union has to engage much better with the countries in our Eastern partnership and the countries – the Balkan countries. That’s the only way to keep the Russians out of that area.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

It has to be said that Margot stood up to Putin when he warned Sweden not to join NATO and basically, told him it was none of his business, which was quite a contrast to another of our European Foreign Minister colleagues, who invited Putin to her wedding. So, Margot has quite a lot of form on that. Anyway, thank you for the question, Thomas. Over to Trisha. Where’s Trisha? Are you there, Trisha? Yes.

Trisha de Borchgrave

Yes, hi.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

We can hear you, that’s great.

Trisha de Borchgrave

Yeah, so I’m not sure. My question was here. I wanted to just read it out, because it’s easier, but my question…

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Okay, go ahead.

Trisha de Borchgrave

Well, I can’t, ‘cause I haven’t got…

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

I’ve got your question in front of me, do you want me to read it?

Trisha de Borchgrave

Yes, please, if you would.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Okay.

Trisha de Borchgrave

And I really must thank the Minister for this event, thank you very, very much, but please go ahead, Jeremy.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

I do apologise, ‘cause when you hear the question, it will seem particular inappropriate to be read out by a man, but here we go.

Trisha de Borchgrave

No, I think quite the contrary, it’s very appropriate.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Okay, here it goes. “In 2021, women took leadership roles in international economics and finance, Janet Yellen, Kristalina Georgieva, Chrystia Freeland, Odile Renaud-Basso, Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, among others, and also joining others. Do you foresee their representation at these senior levels of decision-making having an effect on how economies rebuild post-COVID?”

Margot Wallström

Absolutely, absolutely and I know these – most of these women very well. And I can tell you that Kristalina, for example, the way she speaks about it, the messages she sends about economics, I mean, it’s very different and I think we will see the results of putting more money in the hands of women, that that will help the economy worldwide and that’s necessary, also, in – as a result of this crisis, or as a summary of what we have to do in the future, absolutely.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. And then, we’ve got a very interesting question from Carlo Musso next. Carlo if you’d like to stand by, and then after that I’m going to go to Karwan Tahir. So, let’s first of all go to Carlo.

Carlo Musso

Yeah, thank you, thank you very much for the very interesting discussion. My question is a little more general. I would like to know what you think about the conflict between, from one side, the need for democratic institution, to have time and privacy for debate and compromise, and from the other side, the growing request for complete transparency and the real time reaction coming from the social media, are they compatible or not? Thank you.

Margot Wallström

That’s a very intelligent question and one that I don’t think we have dealt with enough. You know, you always need that, sort of, space for – in diplomatic contexts, as well, in negotiations. You need a space where you can actually take a colleague to the side and say, “Hey, look here, you are now the only one that goes again – willing to go against what we have made up as a compromise. You just have to give in. Is there anything – way we can help you to do that?” You need that kind of space for making compromises. And I think, at the same time, what we see in – the need for transparency can make that space very small and we have to, maybe, explain why this is necessary, sometimes, but – and social media, you know, sometimes I feel like it has really been taken over by the worst of dark forces and the kind of hatred and the comments that you get and it destroys the climate for conversation and dialogue and under – creating better understanding. So, I’m worried about that and what we can do to stop it. I don’t know if – I don’t have any solution, but I really detest it when I see it. People try to put out a reasonable proposal and it will just be killed by either bots or something, troll factories some – from somewhere, so I’m worried about that.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. Next is Karwan and after that we have Quirin Luca. Karwan, over to you.

Karwan Tahir

Well, good afternoon. Thank you so much for taking my question, it’s a great pleasure to hear the Minister and I had the pleasure to meet the Minister when we went to Sweden as Deputy Minister for Department of Foreign Relations in Kurdistan region of Iraq, with our representative, Suresh. I’m sure you know him because he is our representative there. So, my question is, you know, Iraq is full of conflict and, you know, the turmoil still, it can be, you know, seen in Iraq. What’s your view on the future democracy or the – Iraq’s contribution to the future democracy in the Middle East, and your view on Kurdistan region of Iraq and the position of Kurdistan region within Iraq and the contribution to their democracy in wider region in the Middle East? Thank you so much, Sir Jeremy, for taking my question, thank you.

Margot Wallström

Thank you very much.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you for giving me a knighthood by the way, Karwan, but unfortunately it hasn’t happened, but very good question.

Margot Wallström

Thank you and nice to see you, even if it’s only a photograph, and thank you for everything that you are doing and contributing. Well, Iraq continues to follow us as an engagement and something that is close to our hearts and we want to see, of course, a country that can prosper, that can build something for the future. I worry a lot about the terrorism and Daesh also taking hold in Iraq, but also necessary to make sure that there is an inclusive political process in Iraq, and Iraq will continue to need our help and our support in every effort and also, to build an economy that can be stronger and sustainable. So, I think it will stay on our agendas for a long time and we can see all the enormous problems that Iraqi leaders have to deal with, and I think what you are mentioning also, about the Kurds, I mean, we have had a lot to do with the Kurds and also, how they have helped in the fight against Daesh and one should recognise that, acknowledge that to the full, and I hope that we can keep our, sort of, friendship and partnership and support for the future.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. Now, we have Quirin Luca and after that we’re going to go to Robert Morland.

Quirin Luca

Yeah, hi, thank you very much. I was wondering, one of the crises which has, sort of, been put on hold is the migrant crisis, during COVID as well, and in case there’s a renewed wave of refugees or migrants coming to Europe from Africa and the Middle East, how should the EU institution respond and how does the EU build a consensus among countries and citizens? Thank you.

Margot Wallström

Don’t you have any simple questions for me? All of those, they are really the $10,000…

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

You wait ‘til my last question.

Margot Wallström

Well, this is, you know, my former colleague, Ylva Johansson, is now the Commissioner responsible for migration and also, dealing with these issues and trying to set up a common understanding of what is necessary and to be better prepared and to find unity in all of this. And I know that it’s almost a mission impossible, but she has taken it on, and I can see that she does it with all her heart and knowledge, as well. So, I don’t think there is an easy answer, but you know what, we have only seen the beginning, also, of migration and later on, it will come from climate change. And we are talking about millions of people that might have to move because of climate change. It will be uninhabitable, many of the coastal areas and so on, around the world. So, we have to be better prepared, and we have to establish some kind of framework and agreement on the principles, both the view of migrants, but also, the very practical help they need. And I hope we can keep some compassion in all this, because now we just see it as numbers and problems and costs and all of that, but what if we would be affected, how would we – what – how would we like to be treated?

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. Robert Moreland?

Robert Moreland

I wonder what you think might come out of the European Union’s proposal to have a review on the future of Europe? And can I put into that, as a strong Remainer, I kind of, feel since February, who needs enemies when you have the Commission saying things? And I think obviously about the vaccination, I think the unfortunate trip of the High Representative to Moscow, I could say doing the Chinese investment before the Biden administration came in, a number of things that make me a bit worried about the way that is going. So, your view please.

Margot Wallström

Well, again, all easy.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

We have the best audience here, Margot, as you can see, the finest questions.

Margot Wallström

We have, yeah, knowledgeable and with the very clever questions, and I will not claim that I have a proper answer to all of these, or as intelligent answers as the questions. But what I like with what we’ve seen with the new Commission was, of course, the Green Deal. I think that that is necessary. I think that will mean that we can look at it in a more, sort of, hopeful way, also, with investments and the things that are necessary to do. But then, you know, it’s also about positioning and appearance and it has not always been something we have felt proud of. But these are difficult situations and difficult questions to deal with, so we – I think we take it one problem at a time, “One hell at a time,” as a former Minister in our country called it, one hell at a time. And nobody could have anticipated the pandemic and all that it brought with it and you have seen it in your country and everywhere, we share that experience now, and we know, also, how interdependent we are. So, we just need to go on and I think the more we can feed into that debate, the more we can have an open debate, the more we can engage citizens, the better. And that was also my aim when I worked as a Commissioner and worked for Plan D, not Plan B, but Plan D, as in democracy, trying to engage citizens and get them more engaged in the future of the European Union. Unless we manage to do that, I don’t know what will be left.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

I think we’ve got time just for two final questions, Mike Birch and Nicolas Webb, and then I’m afraid we’re going to have to wrap up and apologies to people we haven’t had time to come to, but let’s start with Mike, and then we’ll go to Nicolas Webb.

Margot Wallström

And don’t worry about your haircuts or if you haven’t had a haircut. I like to see people, it’s so nice to see you on the screen.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Come on, Mike, can you – can we see you?

Margot Wallström

Mike.

Mike Birch

I don’t know if you can – I can’t actually seem to let you see me, probably just as well.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Okay, fine. Fire away.

Mike Birch

But I’ll read out my question. I have close interest in five European countries, two autocracies, two democracies and one I’m not sure about. In the autocracies, leaving apart the controls of the media, the man in the street supports and elects the leader because his standard of living has improved much more rapidly than under liberal democracy. Liberal democracies do not seem able to deliver the same benefits to the man in the street, so how can liberal democracies change this view, and would it help? And as background, when I talk about the man in the street, I’m talking about Hungarian Painters and Turkish Taxi Drivers.

Margot Wallström

Yeah, no, I think you really hit the nail on its head, because this was also what we saw in the US, people being not at all content with their life chances, and they voted for Trump and he was, of course, a disaster, but they – and he did not succeed in everything, but he also fulfilled some of his promises. And I think that we have to make sure that we also fight inequality. We have to make sure that we have policies that change the life to the better for everybody, and we cannot create those big gaps and divides between groups of people. So, to me, it’s really about inequality and fighting inequality, as long as people can clearly see that. But also, at the same time, these leaders, they for sure build big castles for themselves and big fortunes and they are extremely vain, most of them, that’s one thing they have in common. So, they are not always consistent, but you are absolutely right, people will look at so, what are our life chances? What does my own future and the future of my children, what does it look like? That will determine who they vote for.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you, and just to show you how brilliant our audience is, a final question from Nicolas Webb. You need to unmute, Nicolas.

Nicolas Webb

Need to unmute, don’t I?

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

We can hear you now.

Nicolas Webb

Excellent, thank you. The Arctic Council has been held up as an example of a constructive multilateral body. I was wondering do you think this will continue to be the case, or might the pressures around economically driven Arctic shipping routes from Asia to Europe, mineral extraction and the pressures around climate change concerns damage relations between the liberal democracies involved and the more authoritarian states in the Arctic region?

Margot Wallström

Oh, well, thank you, Nicolas, for that question. You know, I could speak forever about the Arctic Council. First and foremost, because it is an example of a body that has existed for 20, what is it, for 26 years? And not dealing with security issues, but the issues and the problems and challenges we have in common. It has been a peaceful and constructive way of, also, engaging the indigenous peoples who live in the Arctic region. I was – this is one of my most traumatic experiences, because the last Arctic Council meeting, the US came there, represented by Mike Pompeo, the Foreign Secretary, and he destroyed that meeting, he absolutely destroyed the meeting, refusing to even mention climate change. And that – the minute after some of the Samoyedic people had told the story about, for the first time ever, when they drove their reindeers over the ice, the ice broke and 200 reindeers drowned, and people were, like, in tears, because you could feel that something so dramatic had happened and also to him. And there were the US representatives not caring a bit about the Arctic Council. I hope we can keep the Arctic Council co-operation with that, sort of, branch, but you can be sure that when the ice melts, also, in the North and in the Arctic Council, we will see a fight and a race for using, for transportation and military investments and what have you, in that region. So, we just have to, we have to start that debate, how do we manage those issues? And I think it will soon, or in the end, be a matter for the Security Council as well, but I think it’s very important that there is a debate about how to manage all the push from big countries now to have access to the Arctic and to avoid catastrophes, environmental or other catastrophes, security catastrophes in that area. So, that is such an important issue.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you. And, Margot, I’m afraid that brings us to the end, and the lines also got a bit wonky just at the very end there. But I’ve just got one final brief question, if I might, given your long experience as Foreign Minister and the many international meetings that you went to. What’s the difference between a good Foreign Minister and a bad Foreign Minister?

Margot Wallström

I…

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Did you hear that?

Margot Wallström

Yeah, I heard what you said. I think you have to be courageous. I think you have to be courageous. You have to – you also need patience, and I keep saying this to new Diplomats, you know, when we train them, I say, “You need those two things, you need both courage and patience,” and I think that goes for Foreign Ministers. But it helps also if you are a nice person, if you are a person that can really listen and care about the others, and this is why I think I liked to work with you. We were not always on exactly the same position, but we could sit and talk, and you would listen, and I would listen and enjoy the conversation. I think if you don’t love people, whoever they are, you will not like your job as Foreign Minister, either. You have to like people and love people. I think that we can change the world together.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

That is a wonderful, idealistic, Swedish note to end on, but, Margot, thank you. And that’s also I think a very interesting point about courage and patience, because those are two qualities that don’t often sit in the same person, but I think they certainly do sit in you and that’s evident from your career and the many very principled stands you took on human rights issues, on women’s issues. I’m sorry we haven’t had a chance today to talk about sexual violence in conflict, which is such an important issue, but perhaps we can do that another time. But it’s been really a fascinating, very wide-ranging discussion. It’s been a huge privilege to have you with us this evening, Margot, so thank you for joining us, from me and everyone at Chatham House. That concludes our meeting, but we’re most grateful to you, Margot Wallström. Thank you very much indeed.

Margot Wallström

Thank you very much. Thank you to all of you who have listened and sat in. Thanks, thank you Jeremy, all the best.

The Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt

Thank you very much.

Margot Wallström

Bye, bye.