The prime minister of Israel discussed his views on the politics and history of the Middle East in a wide-ranging conversation with Robin Niblett.
Panel Recording
Israel’s Foreign Policy Priorities
The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, discussed his views on the politics and history of the Middle East.
Event date and time: 3 November 2017 — 09:00 TO 10:00 GMT
Event location: Chatham House, London
Gallery
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Welcome to Chatham House. Absolutely delighted to have you here this morning, and in particular, I’d like to welcome, obviously, the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, his wife, Sara. Mark, where are you? Israeli Ambassador, Mark Regev, and, obviously, all of our members and guests. Sorry, about that, sorry. Number of excellencies, lords, ladies and gentlemen, and members. This is also being livestreamed and sent out on, I think it’s called Twitter 360. Twitter Video as well, apparently.
Member
It’s not yet.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Sorry?
Member
It’s not…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
It’s definitely not a Chatham House Rule event. This is very much on the record, as you can see from the back. I think our view is, that Chatham House Rule events are probably usually maxed out at about 35/40, and we’re also going to be very informal, and have a conversation, rather than speeches, which is – you’ve been getting quite a few on your visit here, and I don’t want to load you up anymore. But what we’re going to do, just so you understand the format, is speak for a good 35 minutes, it might drift to 40. We will then take questions from the floor. Please be patient. There’ll be plenty of time at the end, and think we might – we probably will squeeze this meeting over a few minutes past 10 o’clock, so just be aware of that. And I will ask you all to please stay in your seats at the end, so that we can let the Prime Minister leave smoothly to his next appointment.
And I was just saying a minute ago, I was looking through the record, Prime Minister, that we have been very fortunate to host a number of Israeli leaders before: Chaim Weizmann and Shimon Peres, when he was President, Golda Meir, as Prime Minister, Shimon Peres, also when he was Prime Minister, and *Ehud Olmert, although just before he was Prime Minister, and, obviously, welcoming you here today is not just a coincidence. You’re here, obviously, to mark the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. We will get and have an opportunity to talk that topic, but an absolutely seminal one, not only for the state of Israel, but, I think, also for international relations, and certainly, for the British relationship with Israel as well, as I know from your meetings yesterday with Theresa May.
Before we get going, I’d just like to remind people, you know, politics is a difficult business, and Prime Minister Netanyahu was elected to a fourth term in March 2015, only person to win Prime Ministerships three times in a row. He’s matched David Ben-Gurion’s record, at least on winning Prime Ministerships, and if he stays in office through to the end of his term, which I’m sure is going to happen, then you will have been the longest serving Prime Minister since David Ben-Gurion. So, these are remarkable achievements to have done. Also served as Foreign Minister, Finance Minister, Ambassador to the UN, and, as many Israelis have done, served with distinction in the IDF, the special forces in particular, between 69 – 68 and 72, including dealing with one of the hijackings, I think it was a Sabena aircraft, back in that time, and broke his studies off from MIT to come back and fight in the Yom Kippur War. But I think that maybe, if I can segue straight over, reminds us that Israel exists in a very dangerous part of the world. One of the most conflict prone regions in the world. My conflicts here at Chatham House, who work in the Middle East-North Africa programme are always very busy, and as much as they would like to work on all of the Middle East, they seem to get caught up each time on conflicts, rather than being able to think about the big opportunities.
I just wanted to start with one particular question. Many people thought that 2011 was going to be the beginning of a moment of real change in the Middle East. Here we are, six or so years later, and, in a way, it’s, sort of, Back to the Future. We’ve got a very strong leadership in Egypt, under President Sisi. ISIS seems, at least from a physical sense, or a military sense, in terms of territory, to be defeated in Syria and Iraq. Where do you think we’re at, at the moment? Are we – have we past in the Middle East that moment of optimal danger, or are things as dangerous as they’ve always been?
Benjamin Netanyahu
They’re dangerous as they’ve always been, but in a different danger. First of all, I have to tell you, I have to make a confession, this is not the first time that I’m in a tank, and not the first time that I’m, I think, but I think it’s the first time I’m in this think tank…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And that is true.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and so, I’m –so I’d like to answer by telling you that I just read a book by a man called Amitai Etzioni, not exactly a good supporter, and Amitai Etzioni wrote the book, he titled the book Security First, and he argues – this is germane to your question, he argues that democratisation doesn’t lead to increased security. That’s just the empirical evidence. I suppose it does in societies, and there are not many, that have democratic traditions, or the components that require democratisation, but oth – in other cases, where they don’t, democratisation can lead to extreme instability, the loss of security, the loss of many lives, and political turbulence. I think he wrote this in 2013, something like that. That’s what’s happened. There were traditional structures, authoritarian regimes, and basically dating back from that agreement by a great Zionist that we celebrated yesterday…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and Mark Sykes, but, you know, he was converted to Zionism a few months after signing that agreement, and he was the one who ran out to Chaim Weizmann and said, “It’s a boy,” with the Balfour Declaration, but they set a certain pattern, and sort of stuck, I mean, with ups and downs. It stuck.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
And then it got unglued, and the idea was it was going to be taken over by the Google boys, in Tahrir Square, or in the souks in Tunisia, and so on, and it didn’t turn out that way. Now, this turbulence created several things. Oh God, I can talk here, and this is not soundbite land. It’s not television.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And it’s a good idea.
Benjamin Netanyahu
We can actually develop an idea. Okay.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Not for too long, but develop it, yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, no, I know. I’m waiting for the gotcha.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Don’t worry about that, and it’s fine, but we can’t not do the…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
No, no, no.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…the rigour, you know…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Exactly.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…of asking the pointed questions that don’t really ask for real answers. Here’s a real answer. The real answer is that in the Middle East, as structured, with the cultural forces that are set there, with the tribal loyalties and with the other difficulties that exist, you cannot superimpose a western structure. It doesn’t work.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Okay. We have frayed it, and now there’s a battle. It’s an important battle, but not one that is easily achievable, between what I would call the modernist and the medievalist, early-medievalist. The medievalists come from, basically, through the cracks of these roomed regimes, are coming and the various strings of militant Islam, which is the Shiite, extreme Shiites, led by Iran, extreme Sunnis, led by – initially by Al-Qaeda, now by Daesh. It’ll be – Daesh will be replaced by others.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
And they compete for dominance. Who will inherit this? Who will be King of the Hill? They disagree among themselves who’ll be King of the Hill, but they agree it’s an Islamist hill…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and so others are either subjugated or murdered, first to conquer the Middle East, and from there with their wild ideas about – that’s the barbarians.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Okay. The other side are not – when I say modernist, I don’t necessarily mean Luxembourg democrats, okay? That is not going to happen. It’s just not going to happen. Not in the foreseeable future. It might happen in the distant future, but it will not happen now, and I think the choice we have is, “What do we want?” Do we want these rampant theological, well, dictatorial thugocracies, really…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…based on Islam, or do we have a choice with more moderate and more secular authoritarian regimes? I think the choice is clear.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
So, this is, I think, what we have. This is where we are today. Now, I’ll give you the good news. The bad news is that as the barbarians, so to speak, fight themselves, among themselves…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…the one potent force of militant Islam that has emerged is Iran, and it is devouring one nation after the other. It is doing so either by direct conquest, but more usually by using proxies, Hezbollah. They took over Lebanon and Yemen, with the Houthis, they’re taking over Yemen. They’re trying to do the same thing with Shiite militias in Iraq. Same thing now in Syria, they want to import tens and tens of thousands of Shiites into Syria. So, this is the bad news. The bad news is that the – in the battle between the medievalists and the modernists, the medievalists are moving forward specifically with Iran. The good news is that the other guys are getting together with Israel as never before, and there is something I wouldn’t have expected in my lifetime, but we’re working very hard to establish, and that is an effective alliance between Israel and the moderate Sunni states to counter the aggression of Iran, to roll it back as far as possible. I think that actually has a great promise…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…of peace. It won’t substitute for us achieving a formal peace with the Palestinian Arabs, but it used to be said if you make peace with the Palestinians, you’ll make peace with the rest of the Arab world. It may equally be the other way around. I think you actually have to bootstrap both, but the upshot of the – this long answer to a short question is, it’s the collapse of the – of Sykes-Picot. It’s the emergence of the battle between the Islamist and the modernist. It’s created – essentially, it’s moving right now, in the heart of the Middle East, and in many parts of it, into an open battle between a resurgent Iran and a new alliance between Israel and the Sunni states.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
You’ve put Iran…
Benjamin Netanyahu
That’s what’s happening.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
What will happen is that…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
You’ve put Iran in the medievalist group. One could argue that Iran actually is incredibly realist, and they are building a circle of influence, or at least a stream of influence, potentially all the way over to the Mediterranean. You – what – why do you put them in that medievalist basket, when in fact, they seem to be playing, to me at least, pure realpolitik? Doesn’t make it more threatening, but it’s – and what – why do you put them in that, kind of, extremist camp, let’s say, alongside ISIS?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Ideologically driven regimes can also be – play realpolitiks. One doesn’t exclude the other. I fall back on Kissinger’s description of Iran, which I think is apt. He said, “Iran is a cause, it’s not a country,” as opposed to, say, another regime. You’ve got the map.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
That one. That’s a family business. This is not a family business. This is a cause…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and the cause is – you have to really get into it, because you don’t get it if you’re talking to Zarif or…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…these guys, and whatever. Don’t want to name names. I’m talking about if you actually get into the heart of the – that gang and that cult, I would say, that runs Iran, their Politburo, the Council of Wise Men.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Okay?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, got it.
Benjamin Netanyahu
They believe – it’s hard to believe this. I mean, they have, actually, a conception of world domination, okay, that should’ve gone out the window with the last religious wars, I don’t know, somewhere in Belgium, in the 19th century, I don’t know. No, it’s rekindled with full force, and they talk openly, contrary to what you say, and we hear it, and you can hear it too, by the way. You don’t have to have special needs, but they talk about their quest, their goal, their cause…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…of global domination, and also, the domination of Islam, not limited to Shiites.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Not limited to Shiites. They wish to now import Shiites, and are doing so, in countries in the Middle East with the Sunni majorities, but they also say, “Our purview witness Gaza, is also for the Sunnis, and for the millions and millions, hundreds of millions of Muslims throughout the world.” They want to bring them into their Iranian fold, as they say. So, I think they are a cause. I think there’s something, to me, irrational and dangerous in such a cause, because it doesn’t – if it obeyed merely the rules of realpolitik…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…end of story, we’d be in a different – we’d be in non-Huntington territory.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But does this connect, then, to your position on Iran as a nuclear power, or certainly as a nuclear-armed power? In other words, the ability to live with the risk that Iran could become a nuclear-armed power is so unacceptable, precisely because of this reason, that this is, in essence, a revolutionary regime in your eyes, rather than one that one can, kind of, negotiate with in a realpolitik sense. Is that what drove it? I mean, you played a very public role in the US debate over the JCPOA, the Joint Comprehensive Programme of Action. Was that because of this connectivity, with you seeing Iran in this particular light, or just, yeah, don’t want Iran to have nuclear weapons because they’re opposed to Israel? Is it because of that expansionist element?
Benjamin Netanyahu
The answer is the former, it’s because – well, the answer is because of their – the unique danger of having a militant Islamic regime acquiring nuclear weapons. It’s very different from having Costa Rica achieve nuclear weapons. The whole – it’s a huge difference. I think the greatest – there is a great danger in the world from rogue regimes, as we call them, having nuclear weapons, but by far the greatest danger to the peace of the world is when a militant Islamic regime meets nuclear weapons
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm. Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Or, conversely, nuclear weapons meet a militant Islamic regime. That – these are the two greatest dangers for our world. Now, there are others. I mean, there are big questions, the rise of Asia and the rise of – the natural competition is shifting and economic, and therefore, political and military powers, but that’s within, I would say, prescribed rules, because of the nature of these regimes, not because they’re democratic, but because they may be autocratic, but in certain calculation of cost and benefit that may evade, and often does evade, those with this cause that knows no bounds.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, if one believes that, then the most important thing is to try and prevent that, you know, nuclear capacity from emerging. Don’t you think the JCPOA is the best route at the moment to stop Iran from getting closer to a nuclear weapon, at least in a 12-year timeframe? Would not then, the logic of being, “Right, we need to absolutely stop that programme from progressing the way it was. JCPOA has at least bought 12/13 years to be able to experiment with other routes.” Why were you so opposed to that agreement, at that time, to go out the way that you did to try and block it?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Because I think that the main problem is not – everybody focuses on, “Well, it will buy a few years,” but Iran also buys the few years and what they get is the ability to essentially go on a highway, when the agreement’s constraints are removed, to have unlimited nuclear enrichment of uranium, and this means…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But they’re signatories to IAEA safeguards, etc. They’ve claimed they do not want to become a nuclear power.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
They would – well, you know. So, they’re at least in a position to be able to not necessarily take that route in 12 years’ time. You have to assume to they want to at that point.
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, I’m assuming things…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And their own…
Benjamin Netanyahu
…based on empirical fact. There were four regimes that had signed the NPT, which supposedly says they won’t develop nuclear weapons. One of them was Iraq’s Saddam Hussein. Didn’t go very well. The other one was Syria, under Assad. Didn’t go very well. The other was Iran itself, which lied and was caught, by all of us, by the way, and caught breaking and trying with these underground bunkers…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and so on, that were meant only for nuclear weapons. And the fourth was Libya, Gaddafi. Well, you know what happened to him. So – but he lied, they all lied. So, signing the NPT, including Iran’s signature on the NPT, doesn’t account for anything, as these examples prove.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But if they broke it then you’d have the opportunity to bring sanctions in again afterwards.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And I’m just trying to work out…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…you know, what was the option?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, and…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well, we broke a cardinal rule of mine, is I never talk policy. I’m actually a derailed policy wonk turned…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, this is your chance.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…Politician, and normally I would have, here, a blackboard or a whiteboard, whatever. Then I would show you how it is you make nuclear bombs, okay?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
The most important component of making nuclear weapons – there are three components. It’s very important to take a minute to understand this, so you understand our concerns…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…with the agreement and how we can fix it. I didn’t say necessarily nix it, I said, “Fix it or nix it,” and why I think it’s in the interests of Israel, of Britain, of the United States, of Russia…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…Germany, France, I think even China, to have a nuclear – an effective nuclear weapon, you need three things. You need a gun to fire it, okay? That’s – say, a ballistic missile, which is something Iran purchased. Then you need a bullet cannister. It’s like a bullet. That’s called the weapon, and the third thing that you need, and actually, that’s the hardest thing to make…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…is the gunpowder, and that’s called the enriched uranium. Could be plutonium, but typically, here, we’re talking about enriched uranium, okay? To produce uranium, enriched uranium, is very, very hard.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
It requires these big facilities, with thousands and thousands of centrifuges that are…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…aligned and so on. These are essentially industrial plants. Iran has not been able, because of the pressures that we applied, and I had something…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…to do with it, by moving forward sanctions that then became crippling sanctions, and also, the threat of military action, the combined – these combined pressures prevented Iran from developing that industrial capacity to produce tens or hundreds of fissile cores, fuel…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…or gunpowder, if you will, for many, many bullets, and without that they will not have a nuclear programme. What the JCPOA does is basically says within X years of time, not much, not much is left, and tempus fugit, you know, it goes quickly. You will have unlimited capacity to enrich uranium, and then the breakout time, the time it takes you to take that powder, put it in this cannister in a bullet, while you’re simultaneously developing ballistic missiles, which they are, contrary to UN Security Council resolution, you have the whole programme, not for a single bomb…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…but for 100 bombs. They could break away in weeks…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…to multiple bombs, many, many multiples of bombs. Now, you say, “Okay, well, they’re not doing it now.” I’ve always said that the greater danger in the JCPOA is not that Iran will violate the agreement, but that Iran will keep the agreement. Why should they? They’ll get to this highway of enrichment, of mass enrichment, by doing nothing. So, that’s been my concern. I said, “Okay, we cannot afford to have that. You cannot afford to have that.” Why? Well, we had an agreement, 1994, that was supposed to stop North Korea from producing nuclear weapons. It was universally celebrated. It was clear that this would bring North community, or a good chance of bringing the community of nations. They wouldn’t develop nuclear weapons. Their co – their neighbours, like Korea and Japan – South Korea and Japan, would be safe. Didn’t turn out that way. That was a bad agreement, okay? This, unfortunately, is a bad agreement.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, how would you fix it? You said, “Fix it.”
Benjamin Netanyahu
You can fix it in the following ways. First, you can definitely address one of the three components of the bomb system that I described, by taking away the gun, which means apply massive sanctions on the ballistic missiles. It’s not covered in the agreement. You shouldn’t – you’re not holding yourself back. Within the agreement, I think there are two components that you can deal with. One, inspection…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…since it’s always raised. Iran says, now, that if you read the deal, I mean, it says you can inspect anywhere, okay? Iran says anywhere does not include military sites, wow.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Conventionally.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Right. Where do you think they’re – well, of course. Okay. So, you can do that, okay? Tighten that.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Then there’s the sunset clause. There are ways, again, of interpretation, of putting red lines on their breakout – things like their breakout capacity, and other things that could be done, which do not require a change in agreement. It requires an agreement, at least, by some of the P5+1. So, you could do that. If you do all that, I think you’re going to make it very difficult for Iran to continue unfettered, which they’re doing right now, towards an arsenal of nuclear weapons. The counterargument, gone, and going from certain discussions, it sort of argues itself, yeah. The counterargument, and I’ll raise it, well, if you start putting pressures on Iran, they’ll go to a bomb, right?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm. Well…
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, actually, yes, this is the threat. I don’t think it’ll happen, but the threat is, they’ll go to ‘a bomb’.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
One.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
You know, whether it’s – you remember I drew that line in the UN…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yes.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…the red line? It was for ‘a bomb’. One bomb. 300 kilos, roughly, of uranium enriched above 20%, okay?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
It gets non-linear after 20%.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And – but…
Benjamin Netanyahu
So, they haven’t done that.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
So, today if they were to do it, that’s as far as they could go, and I have reason to believe they won’t go there, but that’s the risk you take. That’s a risk. Fine, there are ways to mitigate that risk, but if you don’t do it, and you just leave this agreement, okay?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
And all those constraints are lifted, not by a change of Iran’s behaviour, but a change in the calendar, then you’re guaranteed, within about a decade, could be less, to have Iran walk, you know, into the enrichment that enables this very fast conversion to a nuclear arsenal with a – how should I say this? A kosher seal of international approval. Not a good idea.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So…
Benjamin Netanyahu
That’s certainty, as opposed to what I think is a manageable risk.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well – so, it would require other countries to back in on this, as well, not just the United Kingdom, but you said the P5. Let me just bring Russia up quickly, and then I’ll turn a little bit more closer to home, but on Russia, here’s a country you’ve invested a fair amount of diplomatic effort into. I think I read the papers today and they’ve just signed a 30 billion energy deal. President Putin’s visiting Tehran, currently. So – and what makes you think that the Russians, for example, pick one country, would get in behind this kind of an approach, such that a deal like this could be changed? Russia is playing a very clever role, it strikes me right now, across the Middle East, playing each side, as it often does, not necessarily looking for a big solution, but looking for tactical advantage for Russia in particular. What makes you think that a country like Russia, I think you know President Putin reasonably well, would circle in behind this kind of an idea?
Benjamin Netanyahu
The fact that Russia has an economic interest with Iran doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have an interest to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons. So I don’t think it makes sense for Iran to have this empire. Iran wants to have, now, an empire. Can I use this?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
You can use that.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Exactly. There’s not many borders on that one.
Benjamin Netanyahu
I can’t write on it, right? Okay. So, here’s Iran. Iran wants this land bridge right to the sea, from Tartous – from Tehran, really, to Tartous, in the Mediterranean. That’s what – they want a land bridge. They’re already here in Yemen, and so they are expanding this, trying to expand this empire. We’ll block them in Syria, and we’ll talk about that, but is it in Russia’s interest to have this resurgent Persian Shiite empire that wants to mobilise Muslim populations around the world, Russia has quite a few of those, including millions in Moscow itself, to have that regime with an arsenal of 100 or 200 nuclear weapons, and the means to deliver them? Is that in the interest of Russia? I’m not sure.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And, as you said, regardless…
Benjamin Netanyahu
So, there could be conflicting interest, and I think we should talk, and I do talk to Mr Putin about that, and I think there’s also tension right now between Russia and Iran. After the job of dismantling ISIS and Syria and Iraq is completed, I think there’s natural competition and economic resources on military presence, and the upshot is this. You may or may not be able to secure for the position that I see, that is not – I don’t particularly care about the agreement, whether it stays or not. It’s preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them that is what I look at. If you can do it within the agreement by tightening the bolts, fine. If you have to do it without the agreement, fine, too.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
But I think we must do it, because if not, within a few short years, we’ll have not a North Korean situation, but something infinitely more dangerous, a cause, a global cause of domination, of irrational ideology, armed with an arsenal of nuclear weapons by a country that has the GDP – 30 times the GDP of North Korea.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Not good for the peace of the world.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay. Point made, and let me – and all sorts of connections one can draw to North Korea, but let me – we’ve got limited time, and I want to come out to the guests here in five/ten minutes. Let me just turn round, as you’re here on the Balfour Declaration centenary. Let me just cut straight to the chase. Do you think that Israel has a responsibility, as well, for meeting the full declaration in its full entirety? In other words, including making sure that Palestinians have a future within Palestine, which the Balfour Declaration referred to, talked about the creation of Israeli state or a Jewish state in Palestine. So, you know, part of the context for Israel’s ability to be able to, you know, get allies behind it is a sense that this internal conflict is also in a state of resolution. To what extent do you think Israel has a responsibility itself for helping Palestinians achieve progress within the territories and having a two-state solution? Not, “What’s the responsibility of the Palestinians?” To what extent do you think Israel, also as a beneficiary of this declaration, sees part of that future as its responsibility?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well, of course it’s our responsibility and our desire, because we live there, and having been in a couple of wars, I can tell you wars are bad and they’re very tragic and you lose friends and you lose loved ones, and peace is better than war. Non-war is better than war, but a warm peace is better than a cold one. So, is it achievable? Is it desirable? Yes. How do you achieve it? You’d need – well, we always say, you need two to tango. In the Middle East, I think you need three or four to get it going, but of course you need it. You can’t do it unilaterally. You can have a non-war unilaterally, because we can exert the power of deterrents, but to have a peace, or a warmer peace, beyond non-belligerence, requires mutual efforts.
Now, the Balfour Declaration, and, by the way, I think there’s promise because of what I told you about, the reaction to Iran. Everything I say about Iran…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…you will hear either whispered or spoken softly, but in the same vehemence in most of the capitals of the Middle East.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Literally all of them. They always say, “You tell ‘em.” So, I did. I just did. I did this in the Congress, but they always tell me, “You tell ‘em, you tell ‘em.” I said, “Well, why don’t you tell ‘em, too?” But we tell you, okay, and, you know, when Arabs and Israelis are saying the same thing, it’s worth paying attention to it, because it didn’t happen that often, in the last 100 years, but it’s happening now with greater force. I think there’s a lot of hope in that. Vis-á-vis the Palestinians, there’s been movement in the Arab world, not only the capitals…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…you might want to do this, it’s an interesting study, it’ll save us some money. You might want to scour the internet, and admittedly you’re only looking at the internet in the Arab world, and look at the attitudes towards Israel, and I think you’ll find something interesting happening, that as you move towards the Persian Gulf, whether they call it the Arab Gulf, you’ll find that attitudes to Israel are mellowing considerably. They’re still very hardened, you know, in the Palestinians, in our immediate vicinity, but they sort of mellow out, because one thing is to have the regimes understand…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…that Israel is their – not their enemy, but their indispensable ally in the battle against Iran and militant Islam, and they understand that, but it’s another to have that begin to percolate to the societies. Well, what about the Palestinians, okay? Why don’t we have peace? I mean, it’s a good question. Palestinians says, “Why? Because you issued the Balfour Declaration and you took our land away from us.” Now we’ll get into a long historical debate on who was there first and who kicked out whom, okay? That’s an interesting question, but I will say that our attachment to this land only goes back 3,800 years to the time of Abraham. Not 4,000, 3,800 years. It’s been continuous and important, but the argument, of course, is that we came in, in the 19th century and drove out the Palestinians from the thriving, verdant Palestine.
Okay and that’s the narrative, and people actually believe it, okay. I don’t say that there weren’t Palestinians there, I’m saying that there weren’t many, and it wasn’t a national ethos. It’s a fact. Yasser Arafat says that “The Zionist invasion began in 1881.” But Mark Twain visited Palestine in 1869, wrote his most successful book in his lifetime, Innocents Abroad, and described Palestine. He said, “Empty.” Sat – sits in sackcloth and ashes. We passed through the gallery for a whole day, we didn’t see a single human being. So – and the same thing is – was said by, a few years’ later, before the purported invasion, by Arthur Penrhyn Stanley. Do you know who Arthur Penrhyn Stanley?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
I’m afraid I don’t.
Benjamin Netanyahu
You don’t? God. How soon they forget.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
I do too much, and it comes back.
Benjamin Netanyahu
He’s buried right next to Queen Elizabeth in Westminster Abbey, he was that important. He was the great English Cartographer of the 19th century, so great that he deserved this point of honour, you know? You go there and say, “Remember Churchill? Well, they remember Arthur – they don’t remember Arthur Penrhyn Stanley.” He describes, he says, “I stand in Judea,” and this is, maybe, two years before the – and one year before the purported invasion. He says, “I stand in Judea,” Judea, mind you, “and I look North, and I look South, and I,” almost echoing Mark Twain, “I don’t see a single human being.” So, where did the – where is that verdant hill?
In fact, what happened is this. There were Arabs there. The Zionist return had been preceded – preceded the Balfour Declaration by about 30/40 years, began Jew – Jerusalem had a Jewish majority by 1850, but the Jews came back, including my great grandfather, in the late 19th century. The only Jew who came from North America to Palestine. He was a [inaudible - 34:59], but they called him the Americanian.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
I wonder what his accent was like. Okay, but Jews came, and began to build farms. They began to build hospitals. They began to do orchards, industrial sites, and a lot of Arabs were added to the population, and they came from Egypt. They called themselves El-Masreyyīn, and that says Egyptian, [inaudible - 35:19], and so on, and they became to be known as what are called now, Palestinians. I don’t want them thrown out, okay, but there was a question, what to do?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
And what to do with this country? This trad – this ancient land, the old land of Israel that was going to facilitate the rebirth of modern – a modern state, and at the same time, there are Arab inhabitants there. Balfour’s suggestion was interesting. Balfour said, “Okay, you can have a home, which looks like a prelude to a state, but you have to take care of the civic and religious rights of the local inhabitants, meaning the…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So…
Benjamin Netanyahu
…what we call the…”
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…not prejudice, rather than take care of? And the implication wasn’t that it was all their fault, it was to be shared, yeah? And so…
Benjamin Netanyahu
I’m not even arguing that. I’m just saying, but…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But let me just – because we’ve spent a lot of time on the history, I’m worried on time.
Benjamin Netanyahu
But this really gets ‘em out.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu
But this is where you start to lance the boil, and you’re stopping me.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
No, no. Well, go on, lance, but you have to lance it very quickly. Boils are lanced, with one prick.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Oh my God.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Actually, not.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu
I…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And let’s not go into boils and…
Benjamin Netanyahu
I had a boil when I was – when I entered the Army, and this is serious, this is a worthy aside. I mean, if I have the time, you should have. I joined the Army in 1967, right after the 68 war. My brother had been – had already been released. He was wounded…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and in the Golan Heights a few hours before the end of the war. He went to Harvard, and he wrote me letters from Harvard telling me what I should do, and the most important advice he gave me is how to lance a boil. Contrary to what you said, he said, “You’re going to have,” because we walked a lot, he said, “What you do in the evening, is you take a needle and a thread, you put the needle – you thread – you puncture the boil and leave the thread and it’ll take all night, but in the morning, the boil will be lanced.” I’m not going to stay here until next morning, but if we can come back to this…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
That’s…
Benjamin Netanyahu
…I’ll lance this boil.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
That’s a metaphor. Okay, look, my key – the last point I want to make of those, and you talked about this emptyish land. You now have four and a half million Palestinians in the Palestinian territories, including Gaza. You have 1.8/1.9 million Arab citizens in Israel. None of them, either the Arab citizens living in Israel, or those living in Palestinian territories, have the same rights as Israeli citizens. Now, you know, whether it’s those in Israel, who numerous reports have pointed out, will find certain elements in their social rights, economic rights, more difficult to be able to access, and certainly those on the other side don’t. So, this is a very full land now, yeah? Full land with almost equal parity, in terms of population. So, the status quo strikes me as unsustainable, and potentially the most dangerous issue to the future of Israel, more so than Iran, and ultimately, you know, a country…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Don’t go…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…goes from inside, rather than outside.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Don’t make it easy for ‘em.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
It’s not that easy. Iran is very dangerous, but you obviously raise an important point, not your assessment of the status of civic rights for non-Jews in Israel, because that’s absurd. I mean, the only place, if I can speak openly, the only place in the Middle East, and in many areas beyond the Middle East, where Arabs enjoy full civic rights is in Israel. I mean, we have a Supreme Court Judge who’s an Arab, with Arab Knesset members, Arabs in Government, Jews in my Government, Minister, and so on. They have the freedom of speech, and they have other things, and of course, they’ve got…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
There’s planning laws and there’s a few other things.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…of course there’s…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Planning laws…
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, no, no.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…property recovery laws.
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, on the contrary. I mean, there are gaps, doesn’t mean that if you have civic equality that you don’t have gaps, and you do take – I mean, the only place where, you know, we take affirmative action for Arabs, because I believe it, but I’ll tell you, my Government – the Government that took the greatest amount – invested the greatest amount in reducing those gaps, investing in Arab communities, was the previous Government. It invested one billion shekels. That was my Government, but it’s been superseded by my present Government because we just announced a multi-year plan for 15 billion shekels. So, I believe in this. I believe…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
‘Cause the one thing we’ve learnt in the United Kingdom, and other places, is, actually, money doesn’t always help.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well, it’s somehow…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And it’s a help, but in the end, a sense of nationhood, the emotional connection to belonging to a nation, is remarkably powerful, as you know….
Benjamin Netanyahu
Correct.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…in regards to…
Benjamin Netanyahu
But I want to answer your question.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu
And I think it’s a good one. I think that the – we – I want to see the Arabs of Israel enter Israeli society, enter it in the professions and high-tech, they’re already in politics and in Government, enter it in academia, enter it in this remarkable success story that the Israeli tigers, leaping forward, they should be a part of it. So, I want to see that, and, naturally, in this larger battle between modernists and medievalists, you know, where, you know, where we are and where we want all our citizens to be, no question about that, and that required – does require investment. You know, if an Arab mother wants to go to work, there have to be roads inside and public transport, within side Arab villages, we’re investing in that. If, you know, if you want those children – I opened a school here, and an Arab school, last year. I went to an Arab school. It’s the first time an Israeli Prime Minister did that…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and there was a beautiful little girl there, and she said – and I said, “What do you want to be?” She said, “I want to be a Doctor,” and I said, “Good, do it.” There are many Doctors, and women Arab Doctors in Israel. I said, “Do it. I have two requests, you know, I have one thing that I want you to do. I want you to study Hebrew,” and I’m making the study of Arabic a requirement for Jewish children in Israel. So, you know, images aside, this is the reality, this is where we put our efforts and our money.
Now, aside from the question of Israel’s Arab citizens, okay, which I think are on the best route towards seizing the future of any Arab…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…I don’t say they’re bad. I’ll say there is no other Arab population, within the Middle East, that is seizing the future as hopefully and a successfully as our Arab citizens. Aside from that, you asked the question, “Well, what about the Palestinian Arabs? What about them?” And I say this, I think that the problem is exactly the rejection, the continuous rejection of Balfour, okay? The Balfour Declaration talked about a Jewish national home. They won’t even accept that, so they certainly don’t accept a Jewish national state. Now, if they did, I think that the conflict would be finished, because I think the real reason this conflict persists is the persistent refusal of the Palestinian leadership to recognise a Jewish state in any boundary, in any boundary. People think it’s the settlements and so on. It’s an issue to be solved, but I don’t think it’s a – I think it’s actually a solvable issue.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But in the end, they are not going to get a state, for the simple reason as you yourself said, and even Yitzhak Rabin said, there will be a Palestinian entity…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Hmmm.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…next to the Israeli state. A definition of a state is to control borders, to control airspace. You know, there will be certain settlements left behind. Land won’t be fully continuous. There are, as you pointed out, deeply personal, cultural, religious sites in Palestinian territories, which an Israeli Government will want to be able to have, you know, a connection to and direction to, and that citizens get into. So, isn’t it the reality the Palestinians will never have a state as maybe they think of a state, and as others think of a state? It’ll be, somehow, a continuation or an extension of Israel?
Benjamin Netanyahu
I think it’s time to think, before I answer you specifically about that, and I will. By the way, if I fudge, I’ll tell you I’m fudging, but I’m not going to fudge.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, I’m going to go to the folks here after this.
Benjamin Netanyahu
I’m actually going to – I’m going to hit your question head on. I think it’s time that we reassess whether the model that we have of sovereignty, and unfettered sovereignty, is applicable everywhere around the Earth, the globe. In fact, you don’t really apply it.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, don’t tell that to British people, ‘cause we don’t…
Benjamin Netanyahu
You don’t really apply because you just had a referendum…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…challenging that…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
About that.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…and you say, you know, “We don’t want outside controls on our economy,” and I’m not going to argue that one.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
But, by the way, I don’t want to get into that.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, don’t, yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Okay, but, you know, you can ask Alexis Tsipras, my friend, really, I’m saying that, my friend, my good friend, in Greece, whether Greece has complete economic sovereignty. I won’t answer that one, but I’ll raise the question. So, there are constraints on what we are traditionally concerned or considered sovereign powers…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Right.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…okay, in the model of the complex world where we are…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…okay, but when we get to the question of the Middle East, with failed states, with territories that in which western powers leave, including the Israeli power, leaves, and immediately it’s taken over by militant Islam, which is what happened to us in Gaza. We gave Gaza to the Palestinians. We gave the key to Abu Mazen, the head of the Palestinian Authority, and within seconds, literally, didn’t take it – took a little more, but not much more, militant Islam came in, Iran came in, Hamas rules it, and Islamic Jihad, and Iran’s direct proxy, is there, firing thousands of rockets into Israel. We left Southern Lebanon. Same thing happened, Hezbollah came in, they fired thousands of rockets in, we could do the same. In the West Bank, it’ll happen again. It’s a choice between a green flag or a black flag, whether it’ll be Hamas, or it’ll be ISIS, or ISIS’s successor, and Iran on our doorstep. That is not peace, and by the way, it’s not going to be freedom for the Palestinian either, because I don’t think the Palestinians in Gaza are free. They’re basically held hostage by these killers, who periodically execute them. They don’t chop their heads off, they just shoot them in the back of the neck in the public square, periodically. You know, they do that. So, I don’t think that’s peace and freedom, and I don’t think it’s…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, your point is, we’ll have to rethink the notion of sovereignty in order to be able to…?
Benjamin Netanyahu
So, I’m think – I say that the – what we have to rethink is one principle power. The Palestinians ought to have all the powers to govern themselves, but none of the powers to threaten us. The most important that has to be reserved in the hands of Israel is the overriding security responsibility in the tiny area West of the Jordan. From the Jordan River, through the West Bank, through the sea, is all of about 50 kilometres…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…which is more or less Greater London in diameter, okay? You don’t have space there. I prepared this for Mr Trump, when he came to visit, so I showed him a map, and I showed him the distance from the edge of the West Bank to the sea, and I told him, “You know, this is the distance from Trump Tower to the George Washington Bridge.” It’s just too small. Israel can go from a position of great strength to extreme vulnerability, if we do another Gaza. The West Bank is 20 times the size of Gaza. So, I don’t want to govern the Arabs in the West Bank. I don’t want to govern the Arabs in Gaza, either, but I want to make sure that that territory is not used against Israel, and therefore, for us, the critical thing is to have the overriding security responsibility. When we talk about demilitarising the West Bank, they’ll be demilitarised by us. We don’t threaten the Palestinians with annihilation, but unfortunately…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And they’ll remain there, as well.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…there are groups who are doing exactly that to us.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah. Let me get people in. Right, oh, I’m going to take a few questions, okay? I’ll take them together. I’ll keep a list, and I’ll do my best, alright? We’ll start with the lady right at the back, we’ll take the gentleman here, take the gentleman here, and we’ll go to that side of the room, yeah, and it’ll go just in front of you, yeah. Please say who you are, at least that’ll be a help. Keep it short, we’ve got little time. I’m going to go to about ten past, so I will give time. Yeah.
Lindsay Newman
Understood. Lindsay Newman, IHS Markit. Much was said at the start of the administration in the US about potential more pro-Israel stance. There was talk of moving the Embassy, as you know. Where do you see the relationship now, nine, ten months into this new administration?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, this with the Obam – with a Freudian slip, Trump administration, yes?
Lindsay Newman
Yes, the US administration…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Thank you.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…relationship with Israel.
Lindsay Newman
We always think of Obama when we’re thinking, you know, the big fight. Right, sorry. Wasn’t it here, yes?
Member
That was my question, thank you.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Oh, okay. Take it to the front, this is brilliant. Yeah.
Member
Prime Minister, you talked about Iran’s ambition to dominate the area from Tehran to Tartous. You said, “We’re not going to allow them, we’re going to block them.” Can you tell us how we will block them, please?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu
I could, I’m not sure I will, but…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, you can give us some round pictures. Please, yeah, there first, yeah.
Barnaby Phillips
I’m Barnaby Phillips from…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yes, you first, you’ve got the microphone. Use the microphone, yeah, you, sir, first.
Sir Michael Burton
My name is Sir Michael Burton. I’m a Member of the Institute, and at time of the Israeli Accord, of the Oslo Accord, rather, I was the Director for Middle East Affairs in the Foreign Office. The Oslo Accord was built, of course, on the principle of land for peace, which is also the constant refrain of King Hussein. Prime Minister, whatever you thought about the Oslo Accord at the time, would you accept that, in the long run, land for peace is the only possible basis for a stable peace in the Middle East?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay, and just in front, please. Let’s take these four, and then I’ll get another group. Yeah.
Barnaby Phillips
Barnaby Phillips from Al Jazeera. Prime Minister, as you know, there’s a very active debate here in Britain over the recognition of Palestine. The House of Commons voted overwhelmingly in favour of it. Three years ago, the main opposition party is in favour of it. Would British recognition of Palestine concern you in any way? Is it something you worry about?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
In any way. Okay, just take one more, ‘cause in front of you here, yeah, as you’re here now. Stop.
Raffi Berg
Raffi Berg from the BBC News website. When Hamas and Fatah find – signed a unity pact in 2014, you froze peace talks and you barred your Ministers from dealing with counterparts in the Palestinian authority. You haven’t quite taken the same approach this time round. I’d like to know what – why you’ve seemed to be a bit more ambiguous and are taking more of a wait and see approach?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Right. Let’s do those, shall we?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Sorry. It’s the other one. You do that too?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Bifocal, it works very well.
Benjamin Netanyahu
That is…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
You should try it someday.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…horrible. The relationship with the United States is a very powerful one. I don’t know if you know this, but Israel has a flowering, a literal flourish, really, of international relations right now because of our dual prowess, our prowess in intelligence, which is – saved countless lives, in about 30 countries, and prevented small attacks and some big attacks, like Barcelona or Paris, and so on, that you don’t hear about because we prevented them. So, countries, all countries need it today, all, almost without exception, and they’re all inter – are interested, so they approach us on this.
Second reason that they approach us is because of technology. Technology is the key component of – alongside, with free markets, of freer markets, of building – giving added value, and seizing – and giving competitive advantage to their economy. So, either for economic reasons they want our technology, or for security reasons, they want our intel, they’re coming to Israel.
I’ve been in six continents, and if you divide North America to South America, six continents in the last year. I haven’t gone, yet, to Antarctica, but we’re sending an advanced mission there. So, there is a commonality of interest with many, many of these countries. I’m talking about the largest powers in the world. China, with whom we have new agreements, special innovation partnership, they have that with only one other country, Switzerland, along those lines. Japan, with whom we’ve signed agreements that we didn’t have for seven years. We just signed these agreements, Protection of Investments Agreements.
Our trade with India is going through the roof. Mr Modi visited Israel recently. I’m going in a few weeks, my wife and I are going, at his invitation, for several days to India, and the same thing is happening in Africa. I’ve been to Africa twice. I’ve been to – I’ve been the first Israeli Prime Minister, can you imagine? The first Israeli Prime Minister in our history to visit a country South of the United States, in the Western Hemisphere. I went to Latin America, I did the trek, you know. So, there is an enormous change because of interest, first, interest.
Now, there is also values that some of – many of these countries share. They admire Israel, but with the United States, the United States is the quintessential example of a country with whom our relations is based before interest, on commonality of values, and I’m not sure people fully understand how deep and wide Israel’s – the affinity of the American people is to Israel. So, I’ll give you a number. That number will tell you a bit. Doesn’t mean that there isn’t strong opposition, campuses in certain quarters, to Israel, but here are the numbers.
Every year, the Gallup organisation does – asks the same question, “What is your opinion of Israel? What is your opinion of the Palestinians?” Okay? The opinion of the Palestinians, the good opinion, is a flat 18%. It doesn’t move. It’s a flat, from 2000, say, ‘til the present, okay? Absolutely flat, like the EKG of a dead man. Flat, okay. The support for Israel is – goes up right now. It went up from about 50% to 71%. Still has a way to go. We’re getting there, okay? But if you project that back to 1967, you’ll find that the number was about 35%. So, it’s just a curve that keeps on going. This one is flat, and this one is rising, rising, rising.
There is an affinity of the American people. The Jews of America are very important, a very, very crucial part of the American public, account for about 2%. So, the other 69% represents non-Jews. The support for Israel in America is astounding, and growing, because essentially, Americans view Israel as an extension of their values. You know, in a world that attacks America, and in the Middle East, where Israel is seen, as the Islamists say, “We’re the little Satan, America’s the great Satan.” By the way, I don’t want you to be offended, but you’re a middle-sized Satan. So…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
In Iran’s case, we’re worse than that, but…
Benjamin Netanyahu
So – could be, but what that means is, that despite changes in administrations, and there have been ups and downs, you know, I’ve had some arguments with Mr Obama, but people didn’t even notice that Obama and I signed an agreement, a Memorandum of Understanding that extended, for another ten years, the ten-year agreement that we had signed with President Bush, to give Israel military support. This was a bigger package, almost 40 billion dollars, and one that I deeply appreciate. That’s with…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
He noted it a lot, and felt he didn’t get much in return.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Obama?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, I noted, and you didn’t prompt me. I say it because I think it’s very important. It actually expresses this basic reality that I’m talking about…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Course, yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…with – there is a difference. There is a difference, and I won’t hide that. I won’t sweep that under the rug either. I had a very strong disagreement with Mr Obama on Iran, very strong, and I said – I think he saw Iran as the solution, or an important part of the solution to the problem in the Middle East, and I saw it as the main problem, as do our Arab neighbours. I think Mr Trump’s view is now that Iran is not the solution, but the problem in the Middle East. He said so many times, and I obviously welcome that. So, in that sense, strategically, there’s been a shift, an important shift, that I think we obviously appreciate, it’s important…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…but I think the relationship with America is very strong.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu
It’s very strong, much stronger than meets the eye.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
How do you block Iran from making its move across Tehran?
Benjamin Netanyahu
What has happened in Tehran is that we did not intervene in Syria. I said – we did, actually. I said, “Look, there’s a terrible tragedy there, and even though we won’t intervene, I put a field hospital right next to the fence, our border, and the Golan Heights, and we took in thousands of wounded civilians and children, and horrible things. I mean, I went to talk to them, and they were amazed. I mean, they said, “We always heard that you were devils, but you’re angels. You’re the only ones,” and these Israeli Doctors, by the way, Arab Doctors too, Arab and Jewish Doctors, and Jewish Doctors taking care of them, speaking in their own language, taking care of it, and you take these amputated children and you give them life. But we couldn’t, you know, if they were photographed, they couldn’t be sent back to their villages because they’d be executed on the spot, but we took them from there to our hospitals at our cost, and if they weren’t photographed, they’d go back, and if not, they’d stay in Israel. That’s one thing we did.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Second thing I said was that we will not let Syrian territory be used to transfer advanced weapons, and advanced weapons that Iran was trying to bring to Hezbollah and Lebanon. Hezbollah openly calls for our destruction, as does Iran, and we’ve enforced those red lines, wherever we could. We don’t always see, but when we see, we act.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And Hezbollah in Syria? If Hezbollah really…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Hezbollah? No. Hezbollah is Iran. If you take away the scaffolding of Iran, the whole thing collapses in two seconds.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But therefore, would you be proactive in really preventing a serious sustained presence of Hezbollah in Syria?
Benjamin Netanyahu
I don’t think that’s our problem, although when Hezbollah approached the – our border, when they tried to extend the terror front that they have in Lebanon to Syria, we acted against it, and stopped it.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
So, that’s near our border, but what we’re talking about now is something else. As ISIS contracts, ISIS moves out, Iran comes in, and Iran wants to Lebanonise Syria. It wants to colonise Syria, economically, which is less troubling, but also, militarily. They want to put their army, they want to move their army in. Geography matters. They want to move their army from here to here, and this is Israel, and they want to move their airbases, have fighter aircraft within seconds of Israel. They want to put Shiite divisions a spitting distance from Israel. They want to have – use – have a naval base here. Can you imagine, Iranian submarines? This is our maritime connection. That – and they say that they do so, pay for the destruction of Israel, but then also for their goal, the cause, the cause which means everyone else, which will be affected.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay, let’s…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
I was…
Benjamin Netanyahu
So we’re not going to let that happen, okay? We don’t issue statements like that lightly, just as what we say that we will not let Iran acquire nuclear weapons or a nuclear weapon. We don’t say that lightly. We mean what we say, and we back it up with action, if necessary.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
On land for peace, and then there’s a question about recognition of Palestine by…
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…the British Parliament.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well, I think there was a question of land for peace.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, land for peace, yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Land for peace is good if it works. Land for terror and rockets is not good, and that’s what we got. We went with the notion of evacuating land, including not merely a civil evacuation, which I always question. I mean, why do you have to tear up Jews, from the Palestinian point of view? Okay? Why? I mean, so do I have to take out the Arab citizens in Israel, because there can’t be peace if there are Arabs who live in Israel? I mean, that’s crazy. The whole notion that the international community bought so thoughtlessly, it goes against the whole notion of peace. You don’t apply it in virtually anywhere else in the world, but you apply it to Jews who live – happen to live in a place where we’ve lived for 3,800 years, but I’m not making that article – argument now, I’m making an argument for parity. You just don’t do it. You never say it about Northern Cyprus.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Hmmm hmm.
Benjamin Netanyahu
You never say it about, you know, I’ll give you 20 other examples, and I’m saving you time, okay?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
It’s never said. It’s said thoughtlessly. “Well, of course we have to take out the Jews.” Why? Okay? Why? Most people agree that, under any arrangement with a peace agreement, the large settlement locks would be there, and they account for anywhere from 80% to 90% of the Jewish popu – well, you don’t have to move them out, because they will be part of Israel, and according to every agreement that I – every purported agreement. So, you’re really talking about a handful of Jews outside, and at the very least, you’d expect the Palestinians, not me, but the Palestinians to say, “Okay, you can stay in the Palestinian state,” but they don’t. They insist on ethnic cleansing.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, they might also have to be protected, which is part of the issue.
Benjamin Netanyahu
But that’s – but the Palestinians should offer that. You’re quite right, there is an issue there, and I, you know, I don’t want to get into the intricacies of this, but I think there are ways of actually solving a lot of problems.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But, there’s a bigger…
Benjamin Netanyahu
I don’t think this is the question and I think it’s the – this attitude that says, “No Jews, ethnic cleansing, no state, no homeland,” I mean, this is it.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But…
Benjamin Netanyahu
This is it. This is the problem, and we have to – you cannot solve a problem, unless you diagnose it correctly, and the persistent refusal to accept a Jewish state in any boundaries, and not the boundary, and not the territory, and not the settlement, is what is holding up peace. These are issues that can be negotiated and can be resolved, but you cannot resolve – you cannot arrive at a peace agreement when somebody says, “I don’t recognise your existence and never will, and will use the territory that you give me not for peace. I will use the land you give me not for peace, but – not to build a state, but to destroy your state.” My argument is that the Arab – the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has always been about a state, not a Palestinian state, which the Palestinians refuse to accept time and again. 1937, and in the Peel Commission, 1947, the Partition. It’s always been about the Jewish state, and once that obstacle is overcome, you are in a different world, in a world of peace.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But just on – before we go to the next question, hasn’t – isn’t Israel changing as well? We had, yesterday morning, on the BBC Today programme, you probably know, Tzipi Hotovely, who’s Deputy Foreign Minister, deputises to you as Foreign Minister. She’s a member of the Likud Party.
Benjamin Netanyahu
What did she say?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
She said, “The land is ours, all of it,” and this is Judea and Sumeria. You know, it’s not a case of two states, or even somebody else being governed, yeah? We need – it’s ours,” and it was very clear. Now, this is a young, 38-year-old Cabinet Member from your party. So, how does that square?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Should come to the Likud and find out. Oh, well. I think that the crucial question that I was asked, and I won’t talk about the intricacies of our politics, but I will…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
But that’s more the mood, it’s not the politics. Is the mood that, you know…?
Benjamin Netanyahu
I’ll tell you what the mood is. I’ll tell you where most Israelis are. I gave a speech, the other day in the Knesset and the Rabin Memorial, and I said, “I think that, contrary to what people think, I think there’s actually a very broad area of consensus, and if I had to, sort of, put, you know, put my finger on it, it’s – it really almost harkens back to Rabin’s last speech, four weeks before he was assassinated, in the Knesset. His last speech in the Knesset, and he said, “The Palestinians, you know, should have the ability to govern themselves,” and so on, but he said, “less than a state,” and I don’t want to quibble into these definitions of what it is or not, but what is a state or not, but I think there’s almost universal consensus about the principle that I enunciated here, namely that the one power that Israel definitely keeps is security power.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Then he said, “The Jordan Valley would be Israel’s eastern security border.” He’s talked about a united Jerusalem and he talked about other things that I think are the basis of a broad consensus, precisely because people have seen what happens when we just walk away. When we just walked away we got Gaza. We didn’t – thousands of rockets from Gaza. Walked away from Lebanon, got thousands…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, this question…
Benjamin Netanyahu
…of rockets from there…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
This question about Fatah…
Benjamin Netanyahu
So, the question of land for peace, it would be great, but land for rockets, not good. The unity of the Palestinians I was asked about.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, just two seconds, and then we can finish up on the British one, but on the Fatah, ‘cause I think we’ll have to finish in a minute, on this new [inaudible – 67:07], if you want to call it, between Fatah and Hamas, I mean, it seems, at least with the Americans involved, there seems to be some movement, and I think this is what you’re asking. Is it different this time? You know, you haven’t jumped on, saying, right, because you’ve teamed up, you know, we stopped talking. Is there a moment for peace emerging now? I suppose this is the key question. You’ve got Trump in power, saying, “I can do the deal of the century.” You’ve got Mahmoud Abbas, who’s met 20 times, I believe, with Trump officials, and saying lots of good things, including recently at the UN, and you’ve got Hamas-Fatah, at least potentially some type of coming together there. Is this a moment?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Hope so.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Good. Short answers are good, at this stage, we’re getting late, so, hope so, and you guys will be working, obviously, towards that, as strongly as you can, yeah?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yeah, I have to say…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Are you waiting for something on the Palestinian side, or is this enough now for Israel to step forward?
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, I think what is being discussed right now is an American initiative, and obviously, we make our interests and our concerns known to Mr Trump’s – as he wants to. He’s coming at it as a, sort of, a refreshing can-do thing and we’re sort of stuck at the trough for 20 years. We could be having this discussion 20 years ago, in Chatham House. You probably did, and we didn’t quite break out of it, and his people are coming at it with a – you know, people sort of discount it, but they’re trying to think out of the box. I would say you first have to know the box to think out of the box, but I think that they know the box. They did a quick, very quick and intensive study on it, and they’ll eventually come out with something. We’ll see what they do, but the reason I draw hope from the moment is, because of the larger shift in Arab-Israeli relations, with the countries of the region, I cannot emphasise how dramatic that is, even though it doesn’t break the crust of public exposure. It’s still very significant and could offer hope.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
This Israeli Peace Initiative could be the one we’ve – well, I mean, there are definitely very interesting movements, steps taking this place. We’re really at the end, and I think I’m going to let that question sit on, you know, if British Parliament votes again, you know.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Well, it depends what it votes for. You know, if – it’s what the other state is. You know, and I think there’s agreement, hope, for the right, as Prime Minister May so eloquently expressed it yesterday, in a brilliant speech, I have to say, and marking the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. She spoke, I think, movingly, and convincingly about Israel’s right to exist and why that should never be in question. Anyone in Britain’s right to exist shouldn’t be in question, by those who question British policies.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, let me ask…
Benjamin Netanyahu
But on the other side of it, okay, what is the other state? Is it Costa Rica or is it North Korea? Is it Belgium or is it – maybe I’ll choose another country. Is it Belgium or is it Hamastan or Iran? It depends what the other country is. Does it agree at the end for mutual recognition? They want a National – Palestinian National State? Fine. You want that? How can you ask to have it, without recognising a Jewish nation state? A nation state for the Jewish people?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And the Arabs who live there.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Sorry?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And the Arabs who live there.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Course.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
That’s the good thing about the Jewish state, yeah?
Benjamin Netanyahu
No, a Jewish state doesn’t mean that the civic rights – it means that any Jew can come too, but that’s the first thing that it means. Any Jew can come to this land, because the Jewish people never had a say.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Let me fin…
Benjamin Netanyahu
But it doesn’t mean that you dispossess the civic rights, exactly as Balfour said, civic or religious rights are guaranteed for all in Israel, Jews and non-Jews alike. I mean, the only place where you have true religious freedom, complete religious freedom, guaranteed, the only place where Christian communities are thriving, not being destroyed, is in Israel, and not only Christian communities, Muslim communities, Bahá’í communities, whatever, I mean, everybody.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, let me ask a last question and we’ve got to close. I saw a lot of hands up, and I know that if I pick one now, I’ll be impossible. So, I apologise, and I think you’ve covered a lot of issues in your remarks, and we’ve managed to weave things in. You may be the longest serving Prime Minister. What’s the legacy that you would want to be seen, kind of, in a shorthand, “This is what I left behind”?
Benjamin Netanyahu
The protector of Israel. The one that created the means to ensure the country’s future by giving it three powers, three great powers. You’d think the first power, because, you know, we discovered something. The protector of Israel and the creator of Israel’s prowess. Okay, so what is the first prowess that you need to survive? Because in our area, you know one thing. The weak don’t survive. Doesn’t, you know, that’s not a tough one to get, okay? What is the first power that you need? Class. The first power that you need is military, I mean, that’s – we talk about soft power, hard power. I like soft power, hard is better. Okay? You need to be able to protect yourself, otherwise you’re overrun, right? And so you need F35s and you need F16s and you need tanks, and you need that, that’s obvious. We’re doing that. Okay, but there is a problem with that. It cost money, a lot of money. To get the money, you have to have a very strong economy. To get a strong economy you have to liberate it, which is what I’ve done, by the way. If I did anything, I liberated our economy, and untethered the genius in our people, the genius and enterprise of our people, so Israel is now about to overtake Japan. I hope I don’t get in any trouble with my friend Shinzō Abe, in per capita income, and the two of them create military and intelligence power, and economic and technological power, give us the third power, which is international alliances.
You don’t – alliances are not made, typically, with the weak, but with the strong. Israel is becoming strong. Of these three powers, we need to envelope that with one fourth power, and that’s, I’ll call, spiritual, or cultural power, that the belief in our history, the belief in our future, our democratic traditions, our Jewish traditions that have to be safeguarded and nurtured. That’s an ongoing process. It is not stable. It is not that you make – Montesquieu made the division between the three branches of Government. He wrote it and it’s etched in stone. Kant said, “There is no straight line in the crooked timber of humanity.” Are you kidding? Why do you think these debates happen? That’s what democracies do, they debate. The fact that Israel has such a robust debate is not a sign of weakening democracy, it is the substance of democracy, of any democracy, and Israel’s democracy too. We are a power, a rising power, precisely because we safeguard our values, and will continue to do so. What I want to do is safeguard and ensure the future of Israel.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And safeguarding those values, I would posit, right at the end, is going to require, and it wasn’t in your legacy, some solution with your Palestinian neighbours?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Perhaps…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Safeguarding the…
Benjamin Netanyahu
…perhaps we have.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…value of Israel, surely?
Benjamin Netanyahu
Yes, we – yeah, because I don’t think we want…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
All of this stuff is meaningless.
Benjamin Netanyahu
…because I don’t think we want – I don’t want a binational state.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay. Look, we could go on. I’m sorry, hand up and that person had their hand up all the time, but I’m not going to go to you ‘cause I would’ve had to go to a lot of other people. Hopefully, we covered enough points. Could you please stay in your seats before I say thank you very much, Prime Minster Netanyahu. You took a lot of points, you used the map very actively. Lucky you didn’t put a felt tip on it. Thank you very much indeed [applause].
Benjamin Netanyahu
Thank you.
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