Rachel Briggs OBE
The lights are dimming and I have been reliably informed that is when we start, so good evening and welcome. What a pleasure it is to welcome you all here and not least to have people in person again. Isn’t it just wonderful? So thank you for joining us tonight for what I think is going to be a really special and a very important and probably a little bit more timely discussion than I think any of us may have thought about when this was being planned several months ago.
My name is Rachel Briggs. I am an Associate Fellow here at Chatham House with the International Security Programme, and also run an organisation called The Clarity Factory. Shall I dispense with the housekeeping before we get started, so we all know the rules before we get going? So I’m asked to remind you that the event today is on the record, it is actually being recorded. We – if you wish to use Twitter, please feel free to do so, or your chosen social media platform, and if you do, we would love it if you would use the #CHEvents, CH as in Chatham House, CHEvents, so that we can kind of gather the conversation online nicely.
For those of you who are joining from home, and I’m not quite – or virtually, and I’m not quite sure where to, sort of, locate you, but please do feel free to send us your questions in as we go along, that’s the benefit you get of being virtual as opposed to in the room. We will be collecting them up as we go, you can ask them at any time, but please use the Q&A function as opposed to the raised hand or chat function, as those will be disabled.
So, now the housekeeping’s out of the way, let’s get on with the substance of the discussion tonight. I think, given events over the last couple of weeks, which just keep rumbling and keep getting almost worse by the day, the hour, even the minute, coming out of Ukraine, I think we’ve had another reminder of just how precious democracy is. How precious and important our human rights are, and I want to open our event tonight with that in mind, and that important reminder of how precious those rights and privileges are.
Earlier this year, we marked the 20th anniversary, believe it or not, of the opening of Guantanamo Bay Prison in Cuba. For a number of years, of course, we didn’t even know of its existence if we weren’t being held there or working there. And I remember, sort of, slowly but surely having the details of this place being revealed, how people had got there being revealed, what was happening to them as they were being held there, in many cases with no charge, with no evidence being brought against them for so long, and many – a number remain there to this day.
And as I was reflecting on the legacy of Guantanamo Bay Prison, I guess I just came away with the feeling that it really doesn’t matter which side of this argument you’re on, it really doesn’t matter what bit of the jigsaw of Guantanamo you fall into, the legacy is painful. It doesn’t matter which way you look at it, it’s painful and it’s uncomfortable, and things were done in the heat of the moment which do not stand the test of human rights and dignity and ethics and the rule of law. And for those who would say that these were extraordinary times, well, you bet ya, if you were inside that institution, they were extraordinary times.
And so tonight, 20 years on, as I say, with this ongoing reminder of the fragility and the importance of democracy and its principles and so on, we’re here tonight to reflect, really, on the legacy of Guantanamo Bay, what it reflects, not just in terms of the institution itself, but what it reflects more widely on our politics and our democracies and our societies. And I don’t know about any of you, but over the last 20 years, as I’ve been involved in conversations in beautiful buildings like this about the War on Terror and how we respond and so on, so many of those conversations have felt fairly abstract, as if those of us fortunate enough to be round those big tables have been somehow playing a game of three-dimensional chess with big pieces that are – sort of, really have a place somewhere else, in a different room and in a different place.
Well, no such theoretical discussion tonight and no abstract discussions tonight, and really, I am thrilled, honoured, and so pleased to be able to welcome here tonight a very distinguished panel of speakers who will help guide us through this really, really difficult terrain.
First and not least and very importantly, Mohamedou, who knows that institution, I suspect, bet – much better than any of us do and can give us a reality check on any of those esoteric abstract discussions. He was held there between 2002 and 2016, having arrived there variously via Jordan and Afghanistan. He has the distinction of being described as perhaps the worst tortured of the 800 or so folks who were held there, and he has written a book, which I think is extraordinary piece of history and testimony, which is called ‘Guantanamo Diary’, which is his recording of what happened to him. And I have to say it was one of the most difficult things I’ve read, but I think perhaps the most important thing I’ve ever read, as well.
No charges, no trial, all of those years, but thankfully, he is here with us today, and doing very, very important things with his life today, which we will all benefit from enormously. Mohamedou, I – as we said when we were talking a few minutes earlier, I couldn’t possibly ask you to tell us your story because we’d need a two-week conference for that, not a one-hour meeting. Perhaps you could give us your reflections. What does Guantanamo and its legacy mean to you?
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
Rachel, thank you so much. For those who don’t know me, my name is Mohamedou Ould Slahi and I’m a former Guantanamo detainee. I spent between Guantanamo and – at a secret prison, a little bit over 15 years, and I spent in-house arrest about five years. So 20 years of my life was between a secret prison in Guantanamo Bay and being limited in a space that I couldn’t live. And as Rachel said, this was all outside the rule of law, and I’m going to use her words “no abstract discussion,” and I want to stick out today what I will tell you, you will not forget, because I will tell you a story and people don’t forget stories.
Two months before Guantanamo Bay was in operation, precisely on November 20th of 2001, around 4pm, I came back from work. I used to be a programme, you know a programme, a Webmaster for the local provider, and I came back, it was Ramadan. Ramadan is the Muslim holy month where we, you know, limit our diet, so we could remember those who don’t have food or who have much less food than us, and I was really tired, you know, and so those two cops showed up at our home. They were in plain clothes, Mukhabarat, Mukhabarat mean Intelligence Service, but in a democracy, the Intelligence Service are people we don’t meet every day. In Arab countries, we meet them every single day, so we know them better than we know the people in uniform.
So they came to me and they say – it was only me and my mother in the house, just as it were because usually the house is full, but it was only me and my mother, as if she want to tell me goodbye for the last time. And they came to me, they said, “You need to come with us.” You know, I was scared, but I could see the real fear in my mother’s eyes. This is not the UK, this is not the United States of America, this is not a Western democracy where the police come to you and said, “We arrest you in the name of the law because of one, two, three.” Those are orders coming from the most powerful country in the world, i.e. United States of America, talking to a military dictator, giving him order to arrest one of his citizens, and this is like you cannot get stronger than this.
And I vividly remember, a few days after 9/11, the former President, George W. Bush, said something to the effect that Al-Qaeda attack the United State because of their lifestyle, but they would never defeat the United State. Ironically, the first thing that the United States of America did was completely turned its back to the rule of law and democracy and completely when it comes to people coming from Africa, me, and the Middle East, they don’t deserve the rule of law. The executive power plays the judiciary power and the executioner at the same time.
I was taken, and this is like, you guys, let’s be honest here. You guys see those crazy, demented people in Africa, in the Middle East, who blow themself up, but this is only one tiny, teeny, tiny piece of the puzzle. You guys don’t see the suffering of people who are being picked up from their home never to come back, tortured and put back. Those people can – only these kind of dictatorship, these kind of authoritarian regime, can only produce crazy people. And I was taken to Jordan, long story short, and from Jordan, I was taken to Bagram, all of this free of charge, I never paid any ticket, by the way. You know, I always – and a plane was chartered especially for me, so I wasn’t doing bad on, you know, arriving.
And I remember this, you know, when they took me from Jordan, I was completely destroyed. Eight month in darkness, I didn’t know most of the time day or night, and I tried to keep the days, counting them in my head. When I arrived in Bagram, I saw that I lost many days, and I thought they were taking me back to Mauritania after this eight month, but when they start, like, ripping my clothes with the scissor, the guy – so I was completely naked, the guy removed my – the blindfold, you know, to be made easier to open my mouth, and I saw his arm, it was blunt, so I know I was taken by the American.
I just – it was also documented, I was in Germany about the brutal penitentiary system in the United States of America. I’m not talking about Muslim, Black, I’m talking about just regular, average American, and how brutal the system is. I know someone like me, with that accent, I didn’t speak English, now I am speaking English, so and then I’m Muslim, Arab, African, and this is all bad news, and I start regretting everything I did bad in my life. I regretted every bad comment I made to my mother, to my sisters, to my brothers, to the person I was in love with, and I promised to God if I ever get a chance to be alive again, I promise to be a kind person. And from that moment, I took a vow of kindness, to be a kind person no matter what, because that’s what would matter to me in my life, you know. And I – the rest of the story is in my book, I don’t want to ruin it because I want you to buy my book.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Yeah, I can imagine.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
I’m a businessman.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Absolutely.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
And I’m so happy to be here.
Rachel Briggs OBE
And that’s – I mean, in a sense, that’s your legacy, and it’s interesting what you say about the kindness because as I was reading your book, I kind of thought, “How does this guy remain so balanced and apparently give people the benefit of the doubt?” And in spite of terrible, terrible things that folks were doing, you could see a chink of humour there, or you could see a chink of goodness in that person, and I – wow, so that’s extraordinary to know that that was the vow that you made. And what are your reflections on what it means, what Guantanamo means to the world? I mean, have you got to that place of reflecting on that yet? You know, what – you know, besides being an institution that did X, Y, Z, what does this thing mean to us or what is the meaning that we should take from it?
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
So, why do we – I know this is Chatham House, smart people, why do we bitch about Guantanamo Bay all the time? Guantanamo Bay is not only in Cuba, Guantanamo Bay is in Africa, it’s in the Middle East, in Iraq, in Syria, in authoritarian regime, in China, in Russia, and now we see those horrific stuff that is happening to our brothers and sisters in Ukraine. We talk about Guantanamo Bay and we think it matters because it was founded finest control by not only a democracy, but the leader of the free world, and unfortunately, the free world conspired with the United States of America at almost every level to completely turn it back to the values of democracy.
And I am from Africa, you know, and we are still struggling to enjoy the same freedom that you enjoy here. You take those freedom for granted, you know, and when we see that, like the United States, it’s as if they are saying democracy doesn’t work, this is like the end of it. We are going back, we are going back to torture, and we did go back to torture. We are going back, not to allow citizen, you know, to have their voices, and Guantanamo Bay was a God-given to dictatorships.
You know, the other day, I was reading, you know, the condemnation of the United States, of China, of building prison for the Uyghur. I said, “Those are extremists, Muslim extremists. We do to them what you do to Muslim extremists in Guantanamo Bay.” If I was an American official, I would have no answer to this, absolutely no answer, because who decide who are the extremists? You know, this is completely to whatever the fantasy of whoever is in power, unfortunately, that’s why Guantanamo Bay does not belong to democracy. Your country, your country, help the United States in rendering people to Guantanamo Bay, you know, in flying them over to Guantanamo Bay, and this is – you are better than this, you know.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Thank you. I’ll now turn to Sonya, who’s the CEO of a rather wonderful organisation called Freedom from Torture, which if you are not familiar with it, if you haven’t heard it, get on its website immediately that you leave this event and find out about the work that it does because it’s really important.
Sonya, just a – sort of an easy question for you, really, is how could we – why is it still open? Why does the institution persist and how might we get to a point where it’s ready to close the gates?
Sonya Sceats
Thank you. I will come to that, and it is really lovely to be here tonight, thank you, and it’s a real privilege to be on a panel alongside you, Mohamedou, and I wanted to start by commending you and thanking you for your resilience, your bravery, and your determination to use not only your skills, but also your experience to keep shining the light on the terrors that have happened in Guantanamo Bay and to – your determination to fight for the rights of those who are still there and the other former detainees who are still living in very difficult circumstances. So thank you.
I wanted to, sort of, just pick up before I come to this question why on earth is this institution still open? This, kind of, point that Mohamedou has already started to explain to us, about the terrible stain that Guantanamo has left on the reputation of the United States, and on the reputation of the allies that colluded in that terrible institution’s operation.
I was an Associate Fellow here in the International Law Programme at Chatham House for 15 plus years, and I remember being on a research trip to Geneva where I met an American Diplomat who, in confidence, said to me that he would personally never ever forgive the CIA for the damage that it had caused through the torture and Guantanamo and the renditions to the credibility of the United States as an advocate for human rights globally, and this is an American official.
And, you know, to add to that, I also just wanted to, kind of, bring into the room the significance that Guantanamo has for survivors of torture across the world and not only those who have survived the experiences that Mohamedou alluded to. It has a totemic significance. It is the absolute point in time at which democracy, it’s the most powerful democracy of all, signalled that it was turning its back on the global absolute prohibition of torture. And it catalysed a freefall in public and political support for the norm against torture, which we had, for many hundreds of years, been building up globally. So, I just think it is so important that we, kind of, enter into these discussions with an appreciation of what it has cost us.
So why is it still open, to come to your question, Rachel? So the first thing I wanted to say is that Guantanamo Bay was created by Americans and it must be dissolved by Americans, too. It can happen; the barriers to it are not legal, and they are not practical. The problem is a problem of political will. Under President Bush, there was indeed a political consensus that Guantanamo Bay needed to be shut and under his administration, 500 or so of the detainees, the vast majority, were actually transferred out. Obama and indeed McCain both campaigned on a platform, pledged to close Guantanamo, but Obama very quickly backpedalled from that when he came into power. He opted not to prosecute those who had been responsible for the CIA torture and that led the way for some quite remarkable and shocking comebacks.
Then, when President Trump came into power and Gina Haspel, who was deeply implicated, became the Head of the CIA, this is what happens if you do not pursue accountability, it comes back. Trump then came to power. He formally reversed Obama’s still extent commitment to close Guantanamo, but he generally maintained the status quo for another four wasted years, and now we come to the administration of President Biden. He also has pledged to close Guantanamo, but there has been very little concrete action to date. Two detainees have been released so far under his administration, including the repatriation to South – sorry, to Saudi Arabia this week of Mohammed al-Qahtani, who was tortured so badly by American interrogators, and indeed this is admitted, that he was ineligible to even stand trial.
So this is where we are, we have 38 people still detained in the facility, half or so of those have been cleared for release, but the facility still remains open 20 years on.
Rachel Briggs OBE
So it’s a political challenge at this point in time, Sonya. Yeah, yeah. I’m going to now turn to our third speaker, who is joining us online. I’m not quite sure how this works, so will you help me along if I make a dreadful mistake here? But I think that Fran should be joining us from the US, can you hear us, Fran? Can we see you [pause]? We can’t. No? No. That’s…
Chatham House Staff
I think he’s been having some technical difficulties.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Thank you.
Chatham House Staff
So I don’t think we can get him in just yet, but we’ll quickly just – oh, it’s ringing now.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Fran, can you hear us? We can’t hear you. Oh, no [pause]. We’re just really all trying to learn to do this stuff again, aren’t we? It’s extraordinary. What’s the story of how many people does it take to change a lightbulb? I feel there’s a relevance to that here. Shall we just keep going with the conversation? Why not? I’m sure this – we have plenty to talk about.
Chatham House Staff
Yeah, I’ll let you know if the connection does get better.
Rachel Briggs OBE
That’s fantastic, thank you so much. I’m terrible at multitasking, so somebody might have to help me realise this ambition. So, can I – maybe before we turn to the audience for some questions and some have started coming in online, I also just wanted to ask about the personal legacy of experiencing something akin to or actually Guantanamo. Sonya, I know your organisation works extensively with the victims of torture. Could you just give us a – I mean, I think I can imagine that it must be psychologically difficult to recover from, but just talk us through some of the practicalities of what your organisation sees, in the course of its work, and how difficult it can be for folks who are coming out of a situation like that to actually recover, move on, get jobs, have families, you know, all the stuff that many of us take for granted?
Sonya Sceats
So, Freedom from Torture is one of the largest torture rehabilitation centres in the world. We’ve been operating for more than 35 years, and we were actually founded by a tenacious young British woman, who travelled to Bergen-Belsen to help survivors of the Holocaust, and she returned to Britain and became very active in Amnesty International, and together with the Doctors group of Amnesty International, decided to form our organisation. We spun out from the Doctors group of Amnesty back in 1985, and we have been providing clinical services to survivors of torture from all over the world ever since.
We focus on providing therapies, but our model is a holistic one, and in the way that you alluded to, Rachel, the problems that survivors of torture in this country face are just legion, and the vast majority of them, almost all of those we treat, are asylum seekers and refugees. And so, on top of the post-traumatic stress disorder and depression symptoms that so many of them are battling, they are deeply impoverished, have insecure legal status for very long periods of time, and are suffering all of the complications of life in exile.
But the one thing which I would really particularly like to draw attention to is the difficulty of being believed, and I think this is something that links us very neatly to the plight of those who have survived the terrible horrors of Guantanamo and the reason why justice is so very important. When you work as we do, day in day out, with survivors of torture, they will talk a lot about the terrible pain of not being believed, and of tendencies to minimise what they have been through. Torturing states officially deny that life-changing and personally destructive experience, and then for those who come here to claim asylum, they have the double jeopardy then of being disbelieved via our migration system, the asylum system in particular. And this is just so desperately psychologically shattering for people, and it’s a reason why the pursuit of justice and accountability is so important, because it is the official validation of those experiences, and the passport through to reparations, and it is so rare. I can count on one hand the number of survivors of torture who I’ve worked with since 2008 who have had any measure of justice, and it is the same for the survivors of Guantanamo.
Just think, you know, situating ourselves here in the United Kingdom, about those who were the victims and survivors of the British complicity and the renditions, etc., that Mohamedou alluded to earlier. They still have not had proper justice, even the commitments to run a proper inquiry, a Judge-led inquiry, into the evidence of British collusion in torture, you know, were left at the end of the day empty-handed. And it just compounds the trauma in ways that it is very difficult to even impart, and so this is one of the reasons why it’s so very important that, you know, we mark the 20th anniversary of the opening of Guantanamo in the way that we have, but also, ensure that we’re not losing the flame and diminishing our calls for justice for the survivors. It’s terribly important.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Yeah, thank you. I’m going to try again. Francis, can you hear us?
Professor Francis A. Gilligan
I can hear you, can you hear me?
Rachel Briggs OBE
We can. Can everybody in the room hear him?
Audience
Yes.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Oh, goodness me. Well, welcome. Welcome very much to the discussion. Can everybody – how does this thing – peop – we can see – brilliant, okay, this is amazing. So, I’m very pleased that we are finally able to be joined by Francis Gilligan who is Director of Training for the Military Commissions Prosecutors, previously a trial – a Chief Trial Judge for the US Army, and he has indeed argued cases against detainees on behalf of the US Government, but is currently and, in most recent years, involved in training. I’m really pleased that Francis can be here to join this conversation. He is here speaking in a personal capacity, he’s not representing the big old US Government, and you’ll understand that he can’t talk about specific cases, and he can’t, sort of, allude to intelligence. So, Francis, I – in, sort of, several minutes, I wonder if you could maybe pick up on some of the conversation we’ve had around the challenge of to close Guantanamo, and, of course, from your perspective, that involves trying the individuals who are – who remain there. Perhaps if you could pick it up there, that would be great.
Professor Francis A. Gilligan
I will, thank you for inviting me, and I’ll be very brief and factual. There’s a lot of misconception about the rights that the detainees have at Guantanamo. So, first, I want to dispel that. I want to talk about the rights they have there. They have a right to a presumption of innocence, a right to counsel free of charge. Those charged with death penalty cases are – have a right to have experienced death penalty counsels. It has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. They have a right to silence. Statements obtained by torture may not be admitted at those trials there. They have to be truly voluntary statements. They have a right to call and cross-examine witnesses. They have a right to all the evidence used by the prosecution, including classified information if it cannot be summarised. They have a right to a public trial and an open trial in which the public is invited, the press is invited, too. They have a right to notice of charges in their own language. They have a right to a trial by jury. They have a right to question the jury to see if they’re biased in any way. If they are, they have a right to challenge them for cause. They have a right to peremptory challenges, challenges with no cause at all. They have a right to plead guilty even though they think they’re innocent. On that, if they – if there’s a – they believe the government has a factual basis to prove them guilty. They have a right to appellate review by Judges appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, and if they’re dissatisfied with that case, they have a right to go to the United States Court of Appeal for the District of Columbia, and a right to go to the Supreme Court by [inaudible – 37:05] and five of the cases have been heard there.
They also have rights that I do not have as a civilian. They have a right to double jeopardy that is much more stringent than I would face in a federal district court here. They have a right to a verbatim record of trial that’s free. They have a right to have mitigation specialists paid for by the government that does not exist in the courts in the United States. They have a right to have jury consultants to be with them at government expense.
I’ve been asked many times, “Why does it take so long to try these cases? What’s wrong? Can’t you try these cases?” We have, in these cases, and the 9/11 cases, there’s the killing of nearly 3,000 Americans. In that case there, we have 6,000 filings in that case. In the US Cole bombing case, the case that took place in Aden harbour, we have 2,700 filings that resulted in the murder of 17 sailors in that particular case there.
Of course, because of the complexity of these cases, we have to review – in answer to those filings, we have to review more than six million documents, and then turn over the documents that would be helpful to the defence. We have reviewed those documents and we have turned over to the defence 300,000 written documents for their use that are relevant and helpful for their trials here at Guantanamo.
Of course, some of the information is classified. All the governments in the world have a right to a state secret privilege, and we do too, we try to protect national security, and we also have probably the most open and transparent trial system in the United States. All those filings I’ve mentioned to you, nearly 10,000, if you go to the DOD Military Commissions, on the website, all those filings are there for you to see. The transcripts of the eight trials we had already are there for you to see, and the many months of pre-trial hearings, those transcripts are on that site, too. So we have one of the most transparent courts you can see.
We have a – rules now against torture. Not only that, our rule now if we’re questioning detainees, it must be videotaped or done through electronic recordings in the case on that. We’ll be very open at our trial that torture took place on that to enhance our credibility before the members, and the evidence we’re going to use in these cases will not be derived from torture at all, they’ll all be detained from independent evidence that is found throughout the world.
Again, thank you for my presentation. As I say, as to the factual basis of the rights I mentioned, go to that website and you’ll see the statutory rights that the detainees have. So thank you for inviting me.
Rachel Briggs OBE
And thank you for joining us, and I’m sorry there was technical difficulties in bringing you in earlier, Francis.
I’m going to turn to the audience now for questions, I’m – it’s the point at which I give you due warning that I’m about to look for folks to come in with questions. I will turn to a couple that are online first, to give you a chance to ready yourselves. We have some questions here from Natalie Porter who is online, she says, “Thank you for the opportunity to listen to you all tonight.” This is for you, Mohamedou. “How much support did you feel was available to you following your release from government organisations, family?” She followed up by saying – and this, sort of, goes to your point, Sonya, I think, or partly, she says, “Have you felt you were treated as a free man following your release?” How would you respond, Mohamedou?
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
First, I have to confess, during Mr Gilligan answer, statement, I kept myself – I contained myself not to laugh out loud, honestly, and I was, oh my God, I shouldn’t be laughing. So, I know this is very serious matter because it’s a matter of life and death, but all those beautiful rights that he told you, I haven’t seen one thing, and he’s sort of winding you off. As Muslims we say, “Look, we have the Quran, so beautiful thing,” but we don’t practice them, you know, and it reminds me also of my Catholic brother and sisters, you know, they just reading so beautiful thing, but they realise they don’t practise them, you know, my friends I’m talking about.
So, I was kidnapped Mafia-style, four years in prison. I never saw a Lawyer. I was the first death penalty case. I was tortured and made to sign a confession. I was pushing every day to see a Judge. Every day I was talking, “I want to see a Judge,” and when I – and they came to me, they said, “If you go see the Judge, we will not release you.” I said, “But I need to see a Judge,” and then when I came to the Judge, it was like surreal because very – and American people first, by and large, are very good people, I must confess. Two, they are one of the brightest minds I ever seen, and they do – I love the way they coined like they’re lost. Patriot Act doesn’t say, “I’m going to screw your rights” Act. It says Patriot Act, so everybody – who is not patriot? No-one is going to say it, so it’s Patriot Act. I vote for it. I would vote for it every day. And I was, like, in shock.
I was watching my trial unfolding, two set of very bright Lawyers discussing AUMF, this is not a bad word, by the way: authorisation to use military force. The President of the United States of America signed some paper, an executive order, that everybody on this planet can be kidnapped and brought to prison. Can you believe this? This can’t be a good thing in the world. And they were discussing whether Mohamedou Ould Slahi, a Bedouin from Mauritania, who never been to the United States of America, is subject to the talk, the signature of the United States of America. The Judge released me, ordered my release. US government refused, completely showing complete contempt to the rule of law, they refused his order. This is on record; it can be read online. They refused and they kept me for six more years, until CIA, FBI, DOD, and I don’t know others because so many organisation, they said, “Mohamedou Ould Slahi can be released.”
And I want to say hi to Natalie, and thank you so much for everything you do for human rights and for the detainees. No, I have really to struggling because the US government ordered my government not to give me my passport, and I had to do so much and to have so much help from my nuclear family and our family, so that I could get my passport. I was never convicted of a crime, mind you, but the United States of America government or some people, not all people in the government are bad. I dare say the vast majority of the people working in the US government are good people, but for some reason else, they refute that apple that could my government said, “Do not allow him to talk, do not allow him to travel.” Guess what? I’m travelling now, and I’m in the UK, and I have a very big mouth. I’m just containing myself.
Rachel Briggs OBE
And keep talking [applause] and we want to hear more. Can I ask folks in the audience to – in the – please hands raised and I will ensure that a microphone finds you. I saw you first, sir, and can you – I’m told you must stay seated and announce who you are.
Tom Brake
I’m Tom Brake, the Director of Unlock Democracy, an organisation that campaigns for democracy in the UK. My question was, what do Mohamedou and Sonya think is the most effective pressure point on the US government to get them to close Guantanamo?
Rachel Briggs OBE
Sonya, maybe start with you and then go for Mohamedou.
Sonya Sceats
I mean, I think it’s really important that governments like the United Kingdom are reinforcing to the United States what a barrier that the ongoing institution of Guantanamo is to the work that states like Britain are trying to do to haul us back from this collapse of norms. I mean, there’s this bilateral pressure is unbelievably important, government-to-government. Now, obviously, there is a terrible power imbalance in those relationships, but, you know, President Biden, you know, clearly understands that Guantanamo is an ongoing stain on the reputation of the country that he leads. He’s pledged to close it, but as with successive Presidents before him, he’s deciding to expend his political capital, you know, on other parts of his agenda, and it’s just so very important that states are keeping the pressure up on this. I mean, I just don’t know what other levers we have in a context where the United States just remains as powerful as it is. So, perhaps not the most sophisticated answer, and I’d actually quite like to hear your views on this, as a former Member of Parliament who has got such a wonderful legacy on these things, so, I mean, I don’t know if we could bring…
Rachel Briggs OBE
Yeah, Tom, what are your views?
Sonya Sceats
Yeah, what are your views?
Rachel Briggs OBE
Please.
Tom Brake
Well, I think you’ve certainly partially answered the question. I don’t know whether there can be a link established with what’s happening in Ukraine, for instance. I think the connections between the UK, the US, and Europe more generally are going to be strengthened by what’s happening in Ukraine. So that might provide an opportunity, perhaps a stronger opportunity than existed until the Ukraine happened, to use that leverage perhaps on issues like Guantanamo.
Rachel Briggs OBE
That’s great. Thank you very much, and remind me your organisation, sir.
Tom Brake
Unlock Democracy.
Rachel Briggs OBE
I think we all need to learn more about that, thank you. I’ll turn for more questions, please, the lady over here in the blue top, thank you.
Sophia Rose
Hi there, I’m Sophia Rose, Chatham House International Law Programme. Thank you very much for coming today, it’s an absolute privilege to hear you all speak. My question is, I suppose for all of you, but hearing Mohamedou’s experience and hearing the supposed rights that the detainees have, what do you think is the best way to ensure transparency and accountability to make sure the detainees actually get these rights and they are protected and, you know, have basic human rights at least, so we can protect people?
Rachel Briggs OBE
Mohamedou.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
Yeah, so I just want to make a comment because your question is really beautiful. I want to tell you a secret that you already know. What the government is telling you, it’s not what they say to American behind closed door. So, from my experience, they tell you, “Guantanamo Bay must be closed, doesn’t belong into a democracy,” that’s not what they tell American. They tell American, “We know what you do, we really support you, because, you know, those guys are bad.”
How do I know this? So, every single detainee who ever made to Guantanamo Bay is banned from entering all countries. So, when I tried to enter this country, it took me so long, and I have to hire a Lawyer, you know, very beautiful Lawyer, you know, Daniel, you know, and Daniel Furner is really good Lawyer, and he – we had to go through so much, you know, just in order for me to come to this country because I was on some blacklist.
So, the first thing they should do, first they should accept that innocent people were kidnapped to Guantanamo Bay, are victims. They should be given, you know, a podium to talk and share their experience ‘cause this is one of the biggest things that the United States doesn’t want to hear around the world. So, you cannot ensure the rights of Guantanamo detainee in Guantanamo Bay because Guantanamo Bay it’s not designed to guarantee justice. Guantanamo Bay is a place to gather intelligence. It’s not to find justice. We have to understand that, you know, we have to take those people out of Guantanamo Bay and put them in a regular trial, you know, that’s the only way we can ensure their rights. My – this is my opinion, I may be wrong.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Does anyone in the room have an opinion on that? Do you? What would your view be on that?
Sophia Rose
Gosh, it’s a big question. I suppose – I do believe you’re right, Guantanamo Bay should be focused on intelligence building, obviously we need to get intelligence if – and these people have information to give, but I’m a big human rights advocate and I do think there’s a way and a place and people need to make sure there are rights. I think once the trial has been conducted and they are proven innocent, they should be almost, not rewarded, that’s the wrong word, but given all the rights and more, like you were saying, they need to be given a platform, they need to be able to share their experience, they need to be offered rehabilitation to make sure they can continue their life when they’ve had a lot of time and many other things taken away from them.
So I think there needs to be accountability, really clear accountability, to prevent any atrocities of human rights happening, but it should – we should obviously need to gather intelligence, as well, to protect as many people as possible. So I think it’s a fine line and a fine balance, but I think the priority should be accountability, transparency, intelligence building, but also protecting human rights as much as possible.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Yeah, thank you. Sir, right in the middle here, the gentleman, who’s…
Andy Worthington
Hi there, thanks, a great event. I’m Andy Worthington and I’m a Journalist and Activist, and I’m about to meet Mohamedou in-person for the first time. I’ve been writing about Guantanamo and campaigning to get it closed for 16 years. The situation that we’re in at the moment, and you were asking for the commentary, so I hope this is okay. What has happened over the last year is that 99 elected representatives in the United States, for the first time, sent letters to President Biden to say, “We think it is unforgivable that, with the 20th anniversary of Guantanamo, the United States is continuing to hold people without charge or trial.” So they said to the President of the United States, “If they’re not going to be charged, we must release them.”
And that’s the situation that we finally got to, we now have 19 of the 38 men still held approved for release. We have only seven men who are still what was described in the media as forever prisoners, people who have never been charged, but who the United States doesn’t want to release, and the rest of the men are on trial, whether that trial system works or not is another question. But to have reached the point where we’d look like we might be seeing only the men still held who are going to be charged is, I think, the best kind of progress we can reach with Guantanamo. But what we’re going to need, those of us who are interested in seeing that this never happens again, is finding ways to make sure that that’s the case, and that’s, I think, where continuing to press for accountability is so important.
Eventually, there needs to be some kind of truth and reconciliation situation regarding Guantanamo and what took place there, and cast-iron promises that the United States, when provoked in future by whatever, will not abdicate its domestic and international laws, treaties and responsibilities in such a shameful manner again. Because we’re stuck 20 years on with these problems because everything was torn up 20 years ago, and it’s so difficult to put justice together out of its ashes.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Yeah, and could I ask you a follow-on question, and it picks up on, I think, the point that Sonya was making earlier, which is to your excellent point that we now have 99 elected officials kind of writing to the President to say, “Come on, let’s get this done, shall we?” Why do you think – why is the needle turning in the US? How would you explain? Is it simply it’s 20 years and it’s back in our minds, or is there something happening under the surface that perhaps we wouldn’t otherwise understand or see? What’s your reading on that?
Andy Worthington
Well, I think, to some extent, time has been important, but 20 years, you know, we – most of us can’t help it, we define anniversaries according to the big numbers. You know, so ten years, when Guantanamo was open for ten years, there was a flurry of media activity, 20 years was another significant date, but I also think there’s been a steady build-up of things exactly like Mohamedou’s book, and the various other media, I encourage people to go out and look. There’s a brilliant book that came out last year by a former prisoner called Mansoor Adayfi. Mansoor was – he’s a Yemeni, so the entire US establishment won’t send Yemenis home. So he got sent to Serbia, he’s treated like a terrorist in Serbia. He’s basically unable to travel freely, the problem that Mohamedou was saying, as all former prisoners experience, but he’s kind of trapped there. He’s written this extraordinary book full of humour and humanity, something that we recognise from Mohamedou’s work. So I think that’s really helped, but otherwise I think it’s the – it’s an understanding not just that it’s been 20 years, but that unless action is taken, it will go on forever.
Rachel Briggs OBE
It will be another 20 years.
Andy Worthington
That men who were never charged or have never been tried could die in Guantanamo, ten, 20 years from now, unless it’s resolved.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Thank you, I appreciate that. I’m going to – we’re, sort of, drawing towards the end of our hour. I’ve been given special permission, on account of the technical difficulties, to run over a few minutes, which might cost all of you, sort of, a couple of sips of a glass of wine, I suspect. But I just wanted to check whether there are any other questions in the room and what I might do is I might – if there’s more than one, I might gather a few up, I will bring them back to our speakers. I think we may have lost Fran, he’s – the technical issues have got in the way of him, so I will take the gentleman at the back, the gentleman here, and then we’ll come back to the panel for some closing comments. Oh, and one other gentleman has squeaked in at the last moment, well done, Sir, I applaud your tenacity. Gentleman at the back.
Yusuf Hassan
So a little bit of a comment and a bit of a question, as well, actually. As-salamu alaykum, Mohamedou.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
Hi.
Yusuf Hassan
Thank you so much for coming. My name is Yusuf Hassan and I work in the Africa Programme at Chatham House, and actually, where I want to start was the bedrock of the policy and the CVE strategy that was come up, following of course 2001, but before that the bombings that took place at the African embassies was as a result of the need for CVE to be seen as an important thing that every government did. A lot of it led to group think; a lot of it led to ideas around radicalisation that forgot about local contexts and forgot about the really – the deep struggles that a lot of these populations felt, and actually a question off that is to say, what is the future?
We are a policy institute and as a policy institute we are a place for ideas and hopefully, you know, group think. How can we move away from policies that allow what happened to Mohamedou and the countless other prisoners at Guantanamo and the other Black fights across the globe, which mustn’t be forgotten about as well, how can we move away from that? And actually, what role should or can the former prisoners play in ensuring that their governments don’t repeat the same mistakes? In the UK, we of course have seen the Prevent strategy, which is now of course under review. I say it as someone who grew up in that era where schools and universities and other institutions were told to ‘survey me’ and ensure that I wasn’t becoming an extremist. How can we move away from really redundant thinking that actually doesn’t serve the purpose?
Rachel Briggs OBE
Thank you very much, sir.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
Thank you.
Rachel Briggs OBE
We’ll come to this gentleman at the front and then to you, I haven’t forgotten you.
Hugo Barker
Hello, thank you for a wonderful conversation. My name is Hugo Barker. I work at Imperial, and I might be – this might be just my naivety, but I don’t really know about Britain’s involvement. I was wondering if you could talk more about it and talk about if there’s anything that needs to be answered for around Britain’s involvement.
Rachel Briggs OBE
Yeah, I think – I suspect we’ll come to you for that, Sonya, and the gentleman in the rather fetching…
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
Bernard. This is Bernard.
Rachel Briggs OBE
…jacket there.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
Bernard Sullivan.
Bernard Sullivan
Okay, thank you very much. My name is Bernard Sullivan. I just – it’s a funny little anecdote really, but it’s amazing how, from very small beginnings, things can happen. This tour really began years ago when travelling in a train with my wife, she picked up a newspaper, a copy of The Guardian, and it serialised part of Mohamedou’s imprisonment, and she said, “We’ve got to do something, what can we do? Can we contact a Lawyer?”
So, we found the name of the Lawyer, Nancy, and we sent her an email and she immediately replied and that started a chain of events of communicating with Mohamedou. We then met him for the first time in-person when he came to England last year, and we said to him, “Would you like to take part in a UK-wide speaking tour if we can arrange it?” and he said, “Wow, fantastic.” And with several of us working together, and my niece, Oriel, and several other people, we got this tour together. And the culminating event of that tour, and which is where my question comes, is when Mohamedou will be invited to Parliament where he will have the opportunity to meet some Members of Parliament and peers, and what the question is that I would like to ask Sonya and yourself, Rachel, is how do you think that the appearance of Mohamedou in our Parliament could help to move things towards the closing of Guantanamo?
Rachel Briggs OBE
Thank you very much, and can I – you’re a wonderful reminder of the difference we can all make in our everyday lives to change the world, so I’m really pleased that you shared that story with us. Sonya, can I come to you first to – I mean, there’s too much for you to pick up on everything, but perhaps if you can pick up on a couple of points and then I’ll come to you, Mohamedou.
Sonya Sceats
So, on the question around British collusion, it’s very well understood that there was intelligence co-operation by Britain with the rendition programme, and indeed flights understood to have passed through British airspace en route, you know, British interrogators were in rooms, it appears, asking questions, leaving when the torture happened, they then came back. A lot of this was – you know, was all – it was all supposed to be looked at properly via the Judge-led inquiry that the Conservative Party promised. Then further evidence came to light and that process was stalled. There was a case that then led to a big financial settlement and a parliamentary apology, and then the commitment to deliver on the promise of the Judge-led inquiry, which had ostensibly just been suspended, was dispensed with altogether.
The – one of the parliamentary committees that focuses on security did its very best, although was hamstrung in all sorts of procedural ways from really getting at the truth, and so, the British public still does not to this day understand the full truth about what happened. And that is a disgrace, frankly, it is an absolute disgrace, including because concrete promises were made and then broken by our government.
So, there is a lot of material out there that you can read, a lot of it, you know, redacted obviously, that will help you to kind of learn a little bit more about the complicity. The fact of the complicity is not in dispute, however. You know, it’s a really dark episode in British history, as well, that stems from, you know, the decision by our Prime Minister at the time, Tony Blair, you know, to kind of go all in with the Americans and to agree that the rules had changed and that they could be dispensed with. And we’re still working out way back from that, and I – and my – can you – can I share a good news story on this?
Rachel Briggs OBE
Oh, please do.
Sonya Sceats
Yeah?
Rachel Briggs OBE
Please do, yeah.
Sonya Sceats
So, one of the things that happened across the Liberal Democratic world after 9/11 was that public support for the absolute ban on torture plummeted. Amnesty did, you know, a whole lot of opinion research across many, many countries that showed this to be the case, because when Prime Ministers of countries like Britain and Presidents of countries like the United States say, “These rules aren’t for us anymore, thank you,” public opinion follows. It is absolutely, you know, terrible.
But we’re turning the tide. It’s taken 20 years, but we are turning the tide, and last year, Freedom from Torture and a number of other human rights organisations, together with survivors and a whole lot of brilliant figures, actually, you know, from across the political spectrum and from the military world, worked together to stop the government of Boris Johnson from legislating de facto impunity for torture committed by British troops abroad in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq. And we stopped him from doing this via people power, and via a very smart advocacy game, and the bringing together of ordinary people, with caring people like yourself, sir, who have decided to stand up and reclaim these values. And over the last 1.5 years, we have moved public opinion by 10% on the question of whether torture is acceptable in any circumstances. Now, 65%, a clear majority of the country, agree that torture is never acceptable.
And so, you know, 20 years on, we’re finally recovering that lost ground, and if you are worried about this, I – my final message to all of you tonight would be don’t be passive in your support for norms like the global absolute ban on torture, get active, because it’s working, and we stopped something terrible happening in Parliament last year. So, you know, we now have 100,000 people who are part of the, you know, anti-torture movement that we are rebuilding here in Britain, and if you want to get involved, come onto the website of Freedom from Torture and sign up and we’ll let you know how you can be involved in this great work. We’re winning again. We are winning again.
Rachel Briggs OBE
That’s brilliant to hear. Mohamedou, can I offer you the final word, sir?
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
I don’t know how to top any of these beautiful things that they were said, but I’m just commenting on your brother, of what you said. So the biggest loser in this are people from the Middle East and in Africa, and I am not waiting on the government anymore. We need to take the example of Bernie and Susie, they’re doing it, you know, they’re doing it, they’re helping people, refugees, asylum seeker, and victims of torture. I am working with my former guard, Steve Wood, who is the boss of my guard, and we go everywhere, we do speeches because realise what my family wants is what his family wants. We don’t want to get killed, we want to have good job, we want to eat pizza, for instance, you know? And, you know, going everywhere spreading peace and spreading kindness. Guys, kindness is the only thing that the more you give, the more you get back, and that is a very good investment. Thank you so much, and thank you for having me here. Yeah.
Rachel Briggs OBE
I can’t think of a better way to finish. I know you’ll all want to join me in thanking this extraordinary panel and I think Francis has beamed back in again at the right time to get some thanks, as well. So, please join me in the time-honoured way of saying thank you [applause].
Rachel Briggs OBE
My suspicion is that I’m going to be saying this to a group of people who are going to say, “We know, we know all that already,” but given the importance of this subject matter and the interest in the room, I just wanted to say, if you want to know more, if you want to read more, if you want to watch more, if you want to listen to more, about the important stuff we’ve been talking about tonight, please, please buy Mohamedou’s book and read it and the book that the gentleman in the middle mentioned, as well.
A very wise man once said, “Whoever listens to a witness becomes a witness,” and I think it’s dutybound on all of us to witness and to see and understand what has happened, so to your point, sir, that it doesn’t happen again, so please do that. There’s been a wonderful film made of it, The Mauritanian, and I – as I said, I would also please urge you to take up Sonya’s offer to go to the Freedom from Torture website, look at the wonderful stuff they do, donate, I’m not supposed to say that at Chatham House, but I’m going to say it anyway, donate, and get involved, get involved in their campaigns. This is – none of this happens unless we make it happen, so let’s go talk some more in the Neill Malcolm room, wherever that may be. I will see you there in a few minutes, and thank you so much for your interest and for joining us tonight. Thank you.
Mohamedou Ould Slahi
Thank you.
Rachel Briggs OBE
[Applause] Thank you so much.
