Tighisti Amare
Good afternoon, or good morning, depending on where you’re joining us from. Thank you for your interest and for joining today’s Chatham House virtual event, focusing on South Africa’s elections. I’m Tighisti Amare. I’m the Deputy Director of the Africa Programme here at Chatham House, and I’m delighted to welcome you all. A war – very warm – a warm welcome, all of you members and friends of Chatham House, including valued contacts of the Africa Programme at Chatham House.
This event is part of a new format developed by our Events Team at Chatham House. It’s the second event we are hosting in this format. There’s another one that was hosted very recently on Haiti, should you be interested. It’s a great discussion. I suggest that you can go back and look at it, it’s on our website. The – this format is designed to provide our key audiences, particularly our members, with the opportunity to have their questions answered by our experts. So, today’s discussion is entirely driven by you, our audience.
We have already received some compelling questions since we announced the event, but you’re still welcome to submit more during the meeting. If you have any pressing questions, please type them in the Q&A box and we’ll try as best as we can to address as many as possible. Additionally, you can use the raised hand function on Zoom to get my attention. If selected, a member of our Events or Technical Team assisting behind the scenes will grant you permission to speak at that point. You can unmute yourself and ask your question live.
And at the end of the event, we will have a short poll, one or two questions, which will be an opportunity for you to share your reflection on the elections in South Africa, and we can see whether our Analyst’s discussion today will have helped you change your mind. Please be aware, however, that this event is on the record and is being recorded. The recording will be made available on our website after the event. As it’s on the record, you’re encouraged to tweet, using the #CHAfrica – #CHEvents, as well as #CHAfrica. And you can use the Chatham House handle, as well, @chathamhouse.
Before we dive into your questions, initially, those sent in advance, we will hear from our Analyst, Christopher Vandome, who will also be the one answering your questions. He will give us an overview of the election and election day dynamics. Chris is, in fact, joining us from Johannesburg, South Africa, where he arrived just in time for the elections. Welcome, Chris, it’s great to have you with us and great to see you. So, this year – this is a year of elections globally, including with many taking place in the African continent. And South Africa’s elections was one we have been watching very closely at Chatham House and in particular, you have, personally, spent much time thinking about this. The elections have been repeatedly described as the “most significant since democratic rule.” Why is that?
Christopher Vandome
Hi. Thanks, Tighi, and welcome, everybody. So, yes, I’m in Johannesburg today and I’ve been in and out of South Africa a lot over the last few years and have been monitoring the buildup to this election. So, I was very happy to be able to be on the ground for it.
Why is this significant? Well, it’s the 30-year anniversary of democracy in South Africa. 30 years since Nelson Mandela and the ANC first came to power. During that time, South Africa has had 15 good years, where livelihoods improved, economic performance improved and there was satisfaction with the ruling party, or broad satisfaction. And then, it’s had 15 bad years and South Africans refer to the 10-year administration of Jacob Zuma as the ‘lost decade’, and we’ve now had five years of Cyril Ramaphosa and an administration that has struggled to turn the economy around and struggled to generate opportunities, particularly for young people.
So, there’s a lot at stake at this election. It’s – if it’s – if the ruling party, the ANC, goes below 50%, which it looks like it is going to do, it will be the first time that a party has scored – or a dominant party has gone below that since 1933. So, this isn’t just new in terms of post-Apartheid South Africa. Even the Apartheid system, you had a dominant party in government from 1948 to 94, and the first – the previous time before that where there was any, kind of, competition was around 1933.
So, what’s new in this election? We’ve got a new electoral law and there are problems that that partly caused, with new processes being put in place, and we’ll get onto that when we talk about what happened yesterday. But the new electoral law allowed for independence, the re – a revised formula for how seats and allocated in Parliament and new ballot papers. Something else that has happened very recently was that there has been a cut in 350 million rand for the IEC, the Independent Electoral Commission. And so, they’ve already seen a lot of strain on the IEC yesterday, some logistical issues that we will get into.
So, briefly, before we answer your questions, then, kind of, a little amount of roundup of what happened yesterday and what’s next to come. So, firstly, there has been some frustration with the IEC and the running of the elections. This is down to a number of things. Firstly, challenges with the voter management devices. Now, these are used to scan people in when they’re voting. Crucially, they’re not needed for the count. So, it’s not impacting the count, but it clearly had some impact on the logistics of running the election yesterday.
That led to long queues, as well as, as the IEC have pointed out, there was a big surge of voters in the morning and then, there was a late surge later in the afternoon and into the evening. So, by the time the polling closed at 9 o’clock, very few polling stations were able to close quickly. By about 11, there were about 40% still open and the last polling station closed at 3 o’clock this morning. Now, that’s because if you’re already in the queue at nine, you can vote. So, long queues, partly because of this late surge, partly because of the voter management devices.
It has been a broadly peaceful day yesterday. I went to a number of polling stations in Johannesburg, both in the suburbs and also, down in the CBD Joubert Park, Braamfontein, Wits, and it was broadly peaceful. We have heard of some incidents KwaZulu-Natal. It doesn’t seem that these are related to the elections themselves. It has been a few tragic deaths relating to a car accident and some others killed after polling. There are ongoing Police investigations, but there’s nothing yet signalling that there’s any kind of political violence relating to that.
And so, it was a – overall, a, kind of, calm and peaceful day and I think – and to sum up in – of my, kind of, early bit and this, kind of, frames where the questions are going to do, is that it very much feels like we’re in the eye of the storm here in South Africa, in that there was a lot of buildup to this election. On the day itself, things were very calm and went very smoothly. Yes, there were some challenges, and we will get onto that, and as I pointed out, there were frustrations with the A – IEC’s management of the process. But now that the count is coming in and now that it looks clear that there is going to be a lot of vying over coalitions, you know, we’re moving out of the eye of the storm and back into a very contested political environment.
Tighisti Amare
Hmmm hmm. Thank you, Chris. That’s a really great overview to get us started in answering some of the key questions that have been sent. So, I mean, the first question was, in fact, about the process. And you mentioned the cuts to IEC, as well as some of the challenges in the management. In your pre-election analysis, which you brilliantly outlined in the Chatham House expert comment that was published ahead of the elections, you were very positive that the process can be trusted. In fact, your exact words were that “The country’s electoral system and civil society observers can and should be trusted,” which I, personally, found to be very reassuring and very – and a very powerful statement.
So, based on what you just outlined in your opinion, and based on what you saw yesterday, do we have reason to be concerned about any kind of voter and election frauds? And…
Christopher Vandome
So, the law did…
Tighisti Amare
…just…
Christopher Vandome
Okay.
Tighisti Amare
…to – so that you have the chance to address everything, but also, just looking at the pre-election period, was there any negative campaigning to be worried about? How does this election also compare to previous ones?
Christopher Vandome
So, on the process, yes, the system can be trusted, but yes, there have been problems in the past. The expert comment that you point to, you know, there – also points out that there have been cases in the past of logistical difficulties, particularly of delivering ballot boxes to rural communities, where there is declining infrastructure. You know, bad roads mean late delivery, and there have also been instances of electoral officials involved in attempts to rig elections. But the system itself is very, very robust and it’s very transparent.
So, yes, yesterday there were some unfortunate logistical difficulties and yes, political parties are now, you know, questioning some of what – you know, the ability of the IEC to deliver a good election yesterday. Part of this is the late delivery of ballot papers or boxes, the late opening of some voter stations. There was an incident where some ballot boxes were left unattended, but the IEC addressed that in a media briefing yesterday and say that they were unattended for a short time. So, we’ll see what happens with that.
Most significantly, and the point that I made in that comment piece, was that where there are these flaws to what is a good system, an important aspect is that the dispute resolution mechanisms are broadly trusted. So, in a pre-election assessment of South Africa, interviewing political parties, all the large political parties across the board, there was a trust that if there were grievances, if there were disputes, that there are, kind of, in-built resolution mechanisms that are trusted.
And the other part of it is, is that those domestic observation missions are really robust and really good. So, I’ve also pointed out, you know, is that you’ve got people like Defend Our Democracy, Futurelect. The National Council of Churches have always been really important, and the Ground Work Collective, and all of these, kind of, new and established movements and in large-scale domestic observation. So, even where you have these cracks in the logistical delivery of the election, I think that we are still seeing what is a – going to be a trusted and credible result. And that’s something that South Africa has a very proud – a proud history of.
In terms of the negative campaigning, there – you know, there have – there were rally – there were complaints against the IEC in the runup to the election, particularly around the complications of the system, around the education of some of the presiding Officers, around the voter management devices and whether or not they would be able to function. And complaints around the leaking of party lists by the IEC early on in the process. So, it’s not been completely smooth for them, but I think that what we’re likely to see is people saying, “Okay, yes, there were problems and there’s learning, but they delivered a good election here.”
In terms of negative campaigning between parties, yes, and that’s something that’s, kind of, always been around in South Africa, particularly, kind of, antagonism against the ANC. And then, in some of the conversations about the, kind of, coalition formation, you start to have negative campaigning about who people want to keep out. And that’s a really difficult thing and we’ll perhaps talk, when we talk more about coalitions, around the atmosphere isn’t necessarily one of parties saying, “Okay, this is who we would like to work with.” I mean, of course not. They’re fighting an election, but there’s a lot of negative campaigning of, “Well, vote for us ‘cause we’re going to keep them out.”
And that’s what we’ve had up ‘til now, and now we have this, like I say, the eye of the storm. And now, we’re in – moving into a phase where it’s like, “Well, okay, how are we going to bring people together?” The exception being, of course, the opposition Multi-Party Charter, but they’re a group of parties, eight parties, who did say that okay, if they were to get more than the ANC combined, that they would work together.
Perhaps quickly, just on the expectations of result, ‘cause this is going to impact on the questions later. At the last election, we had ANC on 57, DA on 21, EFF on 11 and the IFP on three. And in terms of the ANC figure that’s coming out, three big media or civil society organisations, eNCA are putting the ANC on 45, News24 are putting the ANC on 42.3 and the CSIR, who have always had a very good reputation on this, are putting the ANC as low as 42. So, that’s where we’re looking now, somewhere between the 42 to 45 for the ANC and that’s going to really impact – you know, that number is crucial in terms of where they sit compared to where some of the other parties sit and how they get across the 50% mark. So, over to you.
Tighisti Amare
Great, thank you, Chris. We have quite a few questions to get through, but we do also want to give an opportunity to our audience to come in at some point. So, just looking at the debate itself and where the different parties stand, how are they split in terms of policy? Maybe we can highlight one or two key policy areas of – for the major parties that you just mentioned. And also, has there been a strong populist movement, of the model seen in North America, Latin America and Europe? Has it taken root in South Africa, as well?
Christopher Vandome
So, in terms of the populism, there’s always been an element of populism within South African politics. You know, this broadest definition populism, you – it’s about political actors blaming an elite for all of their problems and that power should be for the people. Now, at that broadest definition, that’s what the ANC have been offering for a long time. Even 30 years after the end of Apartheid, there’s still a lot of narrative within the ANC of, you know, “We are the ones who can deliver change against this – against the elite systems,” despite where there have been, actually, kind of, a convergence of where those elites sit and within which social groups are part of that elite. So, there’s been that element for a long time.
But yes, you know, with the emergence of the EFF, that’s what people are particularly looking for at the moment. How well will they do as this populist movement? And I think that, you know, we need to, kind of, flip the question, really, on South Africa, which is, why is it that populism isn’t as strong as we have seen elsewhere? Why is that, despite there being very, very high levels of youth unemployment – you know, you’ve got 30% of unemployment, more than half of youth that don’t have jobs, you got very high levels of youth unemployment. They feel excluded from society. For many of these people, they don’t think that they have an economic future. You know, so, why – you know, you would expect that kind of messaging to actually get a lot strong – have a lot stronger appeal.
And part of that is, is that I think South African voters do tend to vote down the middle ground. There is a wariness of some of those promises that, you know, could lead to violence, or are going to lead to uncapped spending and the – and, kind of, the crumbling of the economy. And so, yes, you know, there is a history of populism and no, it’s not going to – but it’s more of a surprise that it isn’t taking root more broadly within the body politic.
In terms of, kind of, the differences between the parties, and at its broadest possible outline, the ANC is offering a continuation of what it’s been doing, which is actually pretty commendable management of the fiscus and fiscal responsibility. But it sees that the way of creating new jobs is going to be through the state providing of employment and it has a very statist mentally to the jobs, or to the economic future of South Africa, that, you know, the ANC, in charge of the state, will provide and will solve problems.
The DA is actually offering something not too dissimilar in terms of a broad, kind of, neoliberal model, and there’s a lot of synergy between ANC and DA policy in some areas, but with a much reduced role of the state, in many ways. Greater reform on energy, for example, allowing private generators, people generating even in their homes and businesses, to sell into the grid. And one area that the DA hasn’t really figured out an answer to is around economic empowerment. It’s very much against broad-based Black economic empowerment legislation, but it hasn’t yet come up with, or hasn’t provided the South African population with what an alternative model might look like in terms of redressing some of the inequalities of the past.
And then, EFF, you’re looking at a guarantee on – guaranteed state employment for everybody. You’re looking at expropriation of land without compensation, the nationalisation of mines, banks and other strategic businesses, you know. And this is what really spooks investors, because clearly, you know, a lot of what they’re offering is around expropriation and nationalisation, without detail of what they’re going to specifically do and that is going to create a lot of uncertainty. So, that’s what’s really causing a lot of frustration or a lot of, you know, wariness from the international community on that.
And this will also – I think we’ll come to Linda’s point at the end, but, you know, in terms of why it matters to the rest of the world, you know, what the EFF are offering is similar to what – kind of, the Zuma era policy on energy, which is lots of coalmines, but also nuclear power. And nuclear power and nuclear energy generation coming from a relationship with Russia. And so, that’s obviously going to cause an unease amongst Western economic interests in South Africa, if there’s going to be a stronger, kind of, role for Russia to play in its energy mix, going forward.
Tighisti Amare
Wonderful. Thank you for that, Chris. The one thing that – you mentioned right at the beginning the issue of delivery for young people. And so, I – poverty alleviation is a key problem and an issue that – and a key issue for South Africans, and where do the different parties stand in that? And is it realistically achievable what they’re asking – what they’re promising to do?
Christopher Vandome
Yeah, I think that, you know, again, between the ANC and DA, there’s been a lot of attention on young people. ANC offering jobs in, you know, kind of, state sector employment. Many of the other parties, including the DA, with a focus on – whether it’s about training and education and reform of – you know, making people more ready for employment.
Ultimately, what’s really going to drive employment going forward in South Africa is going to be economic growth. And I think that that’s an area where I think voters and businesses tend to think that, okay, well, the DA will have a stronger line, is offering better governance. It’s offering things like, you know, an easier time for hiring and firing. I mean, that’s one of the big challenges in South Africa, is around labour law and how difficult it is to hire and how difficult it is to fire. And so, that’s, kind of, one of the areas where – you know, it’s about growth, essentially, and there’s long been complaints from, kind of, outs – you know, both businesses and from the international financial institutions, even, that, you know, there hasn’t really been a plan for growth.
And so, to some extent, you know, I think what South Africans are voting for isn’t just a policy plan that’s being put forward by an alternative. It’s just to get new people, new ideas and fresh thinking, into government, because clearly, you know, what’s been there for the last 30 years hasn’t really delivered, or has struggled to deliver, like I say, over the last – you know, over the second half of that tenureship.
Tighisti Amare
Great, and for our – to our audiences, if you do want to ask question live, please do feel free to raise your hand. Otherwise, I’ll keep on going. There’s still quite a few to get through. Going back to the ANC, there has been a clear decline in support for the party. Why is that, and also, what are the implications if it does fail to get a majority in terms of the composition of the South African Parliament? And also, who would they form a coalition with?
Christopher Vandome
Okay, so decline for the ANC. Underperformance on jobs, underperformance on tackling crime, underperformance on providing energy. Those are the big three issues in this election and that’s why we’re seeing a decline in ANC support. We’re seeing, also, the decline of that liberation struggle loyalty that a lot of the older generation had. And also, when I was conducting interviews in townships around Pretoria and Johannesburg late last year, it was clear that there’s a generation, they’re not the born-frees. They’re the ones above that, who were around at that time. They are getting tired that there has not been real transitional justice for everybody. There has for a top elite, but for a lot of people below, they’ve been waiting for 30 years and now they’re seeing that, actually, the ANC isn’t going to deliver that for them.
And there was also an intergenerational thing, again, not just the born-frees, but that generation above who were around at that time, but who can never bring themselves to vote for an alternative to the ANC, because that’s what their parents did. And they could – while their parents were still alive, they couldn’t possibly, and you’re starting to see a mind shift change there, as well.
So, then, the answer is, well, why do they still get so much, given a lot of this underperformance? Well, there is still a relationship with the party that is this blurring of the party state line when it comes to the provision of social grants in rural areas and so on. But also, for a lot of South Africans, other political parties turn up at election time and campaign and then, leave. Whereas the ANC is one of the few political forces that actually has a truly, kind of, cross-country presence and throughout the electoral cycle. So, that’s an important one.
Getting onto, okay, the – so, before coalitions, we’ve got to understand what happens next. The IEC have seven days to announce a result. After that, Parliament has 14 days to elect a President and once the President is elected, they can appoint a cabinet. So, that’s what’s really crucial here, is that timeline of getting how many – getting the votes within Parliament to be able to secure a President. So, at the moment, you know, there’s a huge amount of speculation around coalitions, has been for a long time. I think we’re looking at, kind of, three options. It’s the, kind of, we’re getting – you know, ANC getting close to the mark and then, it can do a deal with the Inkatha Freedom Party, UDM, GOOD, the PA. If it’s getting too much below 50%, that kind of a grouping is going to start to become a bit unmanageable.
Second option is the EFF. That’s the one that the international community is really looking. I think that, from conversations within the party, from – over a period of time, you know, the ANC does not like the tail to wag the dog. And this is a – and the EFF, with Julius Malema as the individual who’s been, kind of, pushing for the removal of ANC in power for a long time, yes, there are elements of the par – respective parties that are talking to each other. And, you know, there are a lot of people saying – who are, kind of, pitching this as being, kind of, almost inevitable, but there’s a lot of scepticism within the ANC. And a lot of the old guard would not want to go down that line unless they really, really had to.
And then, there’s a potential deal with the DA still on the table, which, you know, is – and for the DA, could be a existential risk for them, because, you know, again, they’ve been in opposition and now they’re going to be the ones that – you know, or anyone that goes into a coalition could be punished for being the ones that keep the ANC in power, when people are voting against the ANC. But there are also going to be some criteria on the table for the DA, like the role of a Deputy President or some cabinet appointments, that’s going to be really difficult for the ANC. So, that’s at the national level, and we’ve then got complications at the provincial level.
I think just to answer Tarba’s question there about ‘CSIR’. You know, CSIR have been telling people that they – you know, to “take with a pinch of salt.” I think it’s other Analysts – you know, it’s the Analysts and the Media Commentators that are saying, “Oh, CSIR have always done really well at predicting and so, therefore, we should take their prediction seriously.” And, you’re right, it’s the CSIR themselves that are saying, “Hey, look,” you know, “this is,” you know, “the – it is very, very early to call, and” you know, “this is a different type of election to what we’ve seen in the past. So, it’s going to be a bit – you know, we do need to see more and more coming through before we can really make an assessment.” So…
Tighisti Amare
Okay.
Christopher Vandome
…soon.
Tighisti Amare
That’s very interesting, but we’re really running out of time. So, perhaps we can go to the poll, and we may just get to the final couple of questions as a wrap-up. You will see on your screen that a message has popped up. It’s the first poll, and the question is, “Do” – that “Do you think a coalition could last a full-term, yes, no or not sure?” And while we wait for the answer, Chris, so, looking at this, well, strong possibility that the ANC will likely lose majority, what does that mean for Ramaphosa?
Christopher Vandome
Again, very early to call. If it’s a very low result for them, then the party will put the blame onto him. The most likely scenarios all indicate that he will be – that he would stay on. Again, you know, he is more popular than the party itself, in many respects, and those around him and those at the top of the party – you know, he’s still very politically strong within the governing bodies of the party, within the top seven, as it is, the – within the NEC. And it’s very, very hard to remove a President of the party. It has happened with Mbeki, and it happened with Zuma, but these are really struggles and it has to happen – it happens within electoral conferences.
So, you are likely to see – unless he steps aside, he will most likely stay on, but again, you know, it – we’ve got to wait until these numbers come through. And I think that, you know, there’s a lot of speculation out there and a lot of theories around the speed at which he would step aside, and I don’t really trust any of them. I think we really, really do have to wait and I think that that’s one of the issues here, is that, you know, it’s not just a case of us, as Analysts, you know, not being plugged in and not knowing. It’s like, I think that the individuals themselves don’t know, and that’s really been the case – you know, the position we are now is something that was relatively foreseen, and yet, the actors involved, even over the past couple of months, I don’t think themselves, have had a clear idea of what their response is going to be. And so, it’s really, really – you know, and it is uncertain, but I think that the most probable is that he stays on.
If I can just respond to some of these questions that are coming…
Tighisti Amare
We don’t have…
Christopher Vandome
…through.
Tighisti Amare
…much time. We have, first, like, the – we – you can probably include it in your final remarks.
Christopher Vandome
Yeah.
Tighisti Amare
We have, of course, the results for the polls. That’s a very underwhelming “yes” of 24%, “no” 30% and “not sure” 46%. So, that’s the majority of people still unsure of what a future coalition – or the future of any possible coalition. So, over to you for any final comments on that, as well as perhaps, like, if you can add, as well, what are the grounds for optimism on South Africa’s future after these elections?
Christopher Vandome
Yeah. So, quickly, the – some of these questions. On the “skirmishes and hiccups,” I don’t think that they’re going to affect the result. Like I say, where there have been reports of incidents of – so there were – some people died in a car crash in KwaZulu-Natal. Some – there was a – some people were killed by gunfire. There were three men and three women in a car in KwaZulu-Natal. We know that the three men were shot and killed and one of the women was injured, but that was away from the polling station. It seems unlikely that it was connected, but we don’t know, we don’t know.
In other provinces, Eastern Cape and in Rustenburg, in North-West, there were social delivery protests. So, there were protest action and Police did fire rubber bullets, but what’s really important to note on some of those is that those are social pro – social delivery protests. Yes, they’re politicised and yes, clearly, there’s, kind of, an element around the timing, being on election day and so on, but it not – to what we can see so far, were not being instigated by political parties or political actors, from what we’ve seen so far.
In terms of why this is “important to the international community,” Linda, look, I think that that South Africa is a – South Africa is taking strong positions within the UN on the War in Ukraine, on Israel-Gaza. It has been widely commended on its Judges in the ICJ case. It clearly has aspirations for be – taking a strong position on international views. And I think that it is one of those countries where, you know, there is a lot of international investment and international investment is really important for the South African economy and is going to be a really important interlocutor for Western partners, in particular, going forward.
Outside of the West, obviously, South Africa is a really important part of BRICS. And for the BRICS Summit last year, you know, South Africa, as you know, really proud in hosting the summit, where BRICS could expand its international reach, to some extent, against its own abil – it’s, you know, diluting its own foreign policy power by expanding that bloc. But South Africa’s a really important part and a really important voice of this transition and change within international institutions, democratic partners from the Global South having some kind of position on wanting change, wanting a greater voice. And so, that’s why this is really important, because if this is going to go into a really messy coalition, we’re going to end up with a very introverted South Africa, looking inwards. And it’s still got troops deployed in DRC, still got troops deployed in Mozambique. So, you know, this matters and the coalition makeup matters for where it goes, going forward.
Finally, just on Al’s point on the ‘G20’. Similarly, you know, South Africa is important. It is going to host the G20 in 2025. It seems like the South Africans haven’t even yet come up with what themes that they’re going to host that on. I think that if you end up with a more centrist coalition formation, either with the DA or some kind of smaller party makeup, then you’ll see a, kind of, continuation of ANC position and there won’t be too many surprises. People will be talking about, you know, issues around debt or climate finance, energy transition and critical minerals being some of the potential themes for that G20. I think if the EFF are in, it’s going to increase that uncertainty and – but, you know, these party – you know, the EFF is the only one that’s really, kind of, questioning ANC position in international relations in terms of relationship with BRICS, Russia, China and anything that would really spook Western partners within the G20.
Sorry, I haven’t had much time, but if anyone does want to follow-up, I am on [email protected] and I am down here in Johannesburg. So, if you do want to follow-up, drop me an email and I’ll be more than happy to send you other contact details that you can get in touch on. Sorry that this has been such a rush and I’m sorry, Tighi, that I’ve overrun, but – yeah, thank you all very much and over to you, Tighi.
Tighisti Amare
Hmmm hmm. Thank you, Chris. Those final points were very important in terms of wider South Africa matter, and it’s a great way to finish our discussion today. We do apologise for the slight delay in finishing, but it was great to have you join us all, and thank you very much, Chris, for answering such a wide range of questions. This is the last engagement of Chris on an official role for six months, as he goes – well, he stays in South Africa to write his PhD, so will be on sabbatical. Thank you, Chris. It’s a very interesting time for you to be in South Africa, so we look forward to picking your brain again when you’re back in December.
Otherwise, thank you all once again for the questions, for – and for actively participating in this discussion, and we very much look forward to hosting you again in the near future. Have a great afternoon.
Christopher Vandome
Thanks, everyone, bye, bye.
