Racism and Sport – The Power of Performative Action?

Ben Horton

Well, good afternoon, everybody, or good morning, if you are further away, out of our time zone, and welcome to this Chatham House members’ event on Racism and Sport: The Power of Performative Action? My name is Ben Horton. The slide at the start of this event may have indicated that it would be chaired by Dr Champa Patel. I’m afraid I’m not Champa Patel. Champa, very unfortunately, has had to attend to an emergency at her home and so, I’ve, sort of, come in to take on this chairing, and apologies for that. Champa is wonderful, but I will do my best.

And, so, I’m very excited to be talking to you today about this event. One of my roles at Chatham House is to lead the Common Futures Conversations Project, which is a new project, relatively, we launched at the start of this year, an online platform, which connects young people from across Africa and Europe and brings them together in political conversations with policymakers, academics and experts. And we have a burgeoning community, happy to say, almost 400 members from over 60 countries so far, which is really exciting. And as part of the conversations that we’ve had this year, we’ve obviously spoken a lot about the phenomenon of the Black Lives Matter movement and its resurgence this year, after the tragic events in the US. And it’s really sparked some interesting reflections in our community about what BLM means beyond the US.

Obviously, it’s a global phenomenon, but structural and institutionalised racism functions in different ways in different countries, and Common Futures Conversations has been a really fascinating forum for discussing those differences and it’s been wonderful to, sort of, be able to listen into those conversations. I’ve learnt a huge amount and I’m really glad that we can bring one aspect of this discussion to you today, in our first collaboration with the Members’ Events Team, which is really exciting.

So, onto the subject of our event, obviously racism and sport. So, in 2016, the San Francisco 49ers Quarterback, Colin Kaepernick, knelt during the US national anthem in a protest against Police brutality and racism in the US, more broadly. And it wasn’t the first time that the sporting world had been involved in a conversation on race, but Kaepernick’s protest gained unprecedented attention, not least because of the response from policymakers. And since then, we’ve seen footballers walking off the pitch, sportswomen and sportsmen taking a knee in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement, and many across the sporting world speaking about their personal experiences of racism. And in this webinar our panel are going to be exploring what makes effective antiracism activism in sport? So, how are sporting organisations responding to the Black Lives Matter movement to address racism in their own organisational and operational structures and what role can sport play in advancing broader policy discussions around racism and its implications? And to what extent should athletes be responsible for addressing problems of structural racism, within their respective sports, what role can the individual athletes play themselves?

And we have a fascinating panel lined up to discuss these issues; really excited to hear from all of them. We have with us Biko Adema. Biko is a Kenyan rugby player who has participated in two Commonwealth Games, two Rugby Sevens World Cups and, also, in the Rio Olympics in 2016. He’s currently an Educator at Braeburn School and a Director at Safe House Group, Kenya, and is also a UN HCR Ambassador. Biko’s work focuses on nurturing youth and distilling good practices, through motivation and inspirational coaching.

Also, with us, hailing from South Africa, we have Firdose Moonda, a Sports Journalist who has worked as the ESPNcricinfo’s Southern African Correspondent for the last decade. I’m a massive fan of all of her writing, so, it’s fantastic to welcome you here today. She has covered three World Cups and notable events, such as Zimbabwe’s return to test cricket in 2011 and South Africa’s rise to World Number One in 2012, and then, the subsequent collapse of cricket on the continent. Her interests lie in critical race relations, decolonial theory and accessibility for all and she’s going to be telling us a bit about how this debate around sport and racism has played out in South Africa in recent years.

And then, finally, we have with us Yath Gangakumaran, who leads the Strategy and Business Development Department at Formula One, providing long-term strategic direction for the sport as it aims to better engage fans around the world and drive commercial performance and his team created the sport’s first ever Sustainability Strategy. And, also, in recent years, he’s become the Chair of the F1 Diversity and Inclusion Industry Taskforce and he’s leading the charge to make Formula One more diverse and inclusive, by developing initiatives that strike at systemic barriers to entry.

So, that’s a fantastic expert panel and with us to discuss their thoughts, we have also some fantastic members of our Common Futures Conversations community, it’s wonderful to welcome them, also, and they will be providing – acting as discussants to the wider panel. So, we have with us Aurora Andrew, who is a member from the UK, Mwape Chisonde, who is a member from Zambia, and Agnes Kigotho, who is a member from Kenya and has been very central in helping us to plan this event, so, thank you very much, Agnes.

So, sorry for speaking for so long. I’m just going to get into a couple of notes of housekeeping before the conversation begins. This event is on the record, we’re not using the Chatham House Rule today and there will be a video online after the event. If you want to comment or share any takeaways on social media, then please do so, using the hashtag #CHEvents, or #CHCommonFutures. There is going to be plenty of time in this conversation for questions, so please do put any thoughts or comments or questions in the ‘Q&A’ box and we will do our best to accommodate all of those.

So, without further ado, then, let’s turn to our panel and, yeah, I would like to start with Biko, if possible. Biko, thank you very much for joining us. I wondered if you could begin by just giving us a sense of, from an Athlete’s perspective, of how you’ve responded to the BLM phenomenon in 2020, the events over the summer, the movement in general, and what you think sportsmen and women can do to hold these discussions. What should the role of sportspeople be in engaging with these conversations?

Biko Adema

Okay, thank you. Thank you, Ben. So, I think I’ll start off by just, yes, addressing that point directly, yeah. So, I’ve had a little think about it, and I’ve done a bit of collecting of some research from my teammates and Coaches around, and now that is a very important question. So, the role athletes can play in this – addressing this whole issue of the BLM, or Black Lives Matter. So, first of all, I think athletes have a global platform, okay, so, we all have global platforms. In this day and age, athletes are viewed all over the world. I mean, we have our top athletes, American athletes are viewed all over the world and having such a reach, a fanbase, is very important. So, athletes need to use their fanbase to, obviously, address such an issue, okay? So, they need to speak up and that’s what we saw in the NBA, for example, the athletes actually decided to come together and to boycott playing the play-off games. So, that, I think, is one way that athletes can actually take charge, lead by example and show that this is actually, it’s bigger, it’s bigger than sports, yeah. It’s all – it’s something that can – it’s not going to end today or tomorrow, but that little shift or showing that athletes have the power to actually make that change possible, or ignite that spark, is very important, because when superstars make such decisions or bold statements, people will listen.

I remember one time when the Kenya 7s team was out, it had nothing to do with the Black Lives Matter, however, it had something to do with payment, player payments, and they went onto the pitch and blacked out their – the sponsors. And because they did that, when the sponsors now reacted, obviously, and it was a whole big issue, but it was – the attention was gotten, yeah? So, sometimes peo – athletes need to make some bold statements for people to actually listen. That is, basically, my point on that, and we – these bold statements obviously need to be positive and drive certain change that they would like to see in the industry of sports and also, you know, for, like, say, the policymakers and the organisations who run these sporting teams and franchises, yeah.

Ben Horton

Yeah, thank you so much. Just to follow-up on one aspect of that, then, I suppose something that we see a lot at international sporting events are the, sort of, tournament organisers trying to ensure that they don’t become a platform for political statements. And, obviously, while it’s hard to disagree with the, sort of, content of the BLM movement in its own right, I suppose I wanted to ask what you think about that. Do you think that there should be a, kind of, clear dividing line between sport and potentially divisive political debates? Do you think there’s ever a danger of, sort of, blurring that line, or do you think it’s absolutely, as you say, right that sportspeople use their platform to call for change?

Biko Adema

Well, I don’t think there is any danger, so long as it’s done in the right kind of manner, okay, or through the right channels. And if the political parties, or those involved in the policymaking and the players, if they can actually see that this, whatever is being addressed, is for the better of not only the sport, but for the world, okay, ‘cause that is when they can come to an agreement. But at the moment that, you know, it’s – both entities now are fighting, or – you know, on what should be done and what is right and that’s where – I think that’s where the rift comes. But once that – once people see that this is a movement for a better change in the society in general, then I think I would say that we should go with making such statements, okay, and not shying off from actually talking about the real things that out – that are out there and that are affecting sports and, yeah.

Ben Horton

Absolutely, thank you so much. We’ll come back to you later, as well, for some more response. But I’d like now to turn to Firdose, if I may, and I wondered whether you could tell us a bit about the historical approach that South African sporting authorities have taken to the issue of race and racism and maybe, yeah, give us that background, but then tell us how or if the situation has changed in 2020, in light of BLM?

Firdose Moonda

Thanks, Ben. Yeah, South Africa’s a really interesting case, you know, the last legal bastion of white supremacy, if we want to call it that, with Apartheid ending and democracy coming in, in 1994. That means that prior to the early 1990s, when we had sporting unity, South Africa operated on a quota system of whites only. So, the national teams were only white, the national cricket team, rugby team and athletes that were sent to the Olympic Games, but they were banned from sporting competition for 20 years, from 1970. So, there was really a sense that a lot of South Africa’s good sportsmen, good white sportsmen, missed out on national representation, without much attention being paid to what was happening to sportspeople of colour, who would never have had had the chance to represent the country, anyway, under Apartheid rule, and have just been forgotten. And we’ve got a lot of history that, you know, we’re trying to rediscover and we’re trying to pay homage to people that we don’t even actually know how good they would’ve been.

So, interestingly, South Africa returned to international sport before it had even become a democracy. They played cricket in 1991 and they were at the World Cup in 1992 and sent athletes to the Olympic Games then, as well, and so, you know, you had people going to play international sport for South Africa before they’d even voted, which I think is quite something. And initially, the hope, I suppose, was that a kind of natural assimilation would happen, and we would reach a point where the teams and the athletes would start to look like the demographics of the country. But, you know, that was never going to happen, because you had structures that were put in place for a small white elite minority, leaving the majority of the country without access to good playing turf, for example, good coaching, good Coachers, even, facilities, etc. And I think that the move to readmission was probably, in hindsight, premature and should’ve been thought through a little bit more.

And then, as a response to that, what we got was a series of transformation targets or quotas, which changed over the years. So, we started off, especially in national teams, saying, “We need X amount of players of colour.” And of colour, you know, we say in this country generic Black, which means Black Africans, people of mixed race, people of Indian heritage, kind of, everybody who’s not white. And then, in around 2016 that narrative changed again, and we started seeing a differentiation between the Black African quota, which is the majority population group and the generic Black quota. So, now we’ve got a quota within a quota, in that national teams have to field a certain amount of players of colour and a certain amount of those players have to be Black African.

It’s created a huge tension in that what we’re seeing is that the number of places for white players has decreased, the number of schools who produce South Africa’s top sports people remains pretty much the same, and so, there’s a lot of scholarships being given out to people who wouldn’t otherwise have access to those schools, which, in turn, creates another power dynamic, because we remove people from their living conditions, their communities, you put them into situations where they may feel othered. And then we saw, also, a situation where although the grassroots structures, they’re not great, but they’re not terrible, what you get is when a young white sportsman and a young Black sportsman get to the age where they may turn professional, the young white sportsman can often go a lot longer, kind of, hoping to get a contract and not needing a job than the young Black sportsman, who will be paying their Black tax and needing to find a job and needing to look after families. And that’s the tier at which we’re losing, or lost, I suppose, a lot of Black sportsmen. Now there’s the methods in place to try and rectify that.

The Black Lives Matter movement came to South Africa in winter, during the middle of our lockdown. We had one of the world’s strictest lockdowns and we had no sport going on. The first sport that was able to voice anything, in regards to that was cricket, and it handled it just about as badly as it could. We had a former white national sportsman criticising a young current Black bowler, who said he thought that the conversation should happen, he thought the team should discuss Black Lives Matter. The white sportsman came up with, “Farm murders are important.” And farm murders are very important, but they’re a very small percentage of the overall murder rate in this country, which then just, the race wars opened. And we started getting stories about Black sportsmen who felt othered and treated really badly over the years and I just think we’ve reached a point where any kind of unity, especially in cricket, that we thought we had, is gone.

You know, a contrast to that is what’s happened at the national rugby side. Last year Siya Kolisi’s Springboks lifted the World Cup for the third time. It’s a Black Captain, with an Afrikaans Coach, Rassie Erasmus, the two, kind of, polar opposites of the racial divide in this country coming together. There’s a documentary on television at the moment called Chasing the Sun, which is going through the story of the Springboks’ journey to that World Cup. It’s beautiful to watch, but also heart-breaking, because it shows you what rugby’s done right that cricket’s done wrong. You know, cricket, and we haven’t won a World Cup there yet. So, it’s really about trying to understand what we can do in these two, kind of, sports of the white elite. And I’ve not mentioned football yet, but I want to, in that, you know, the national football team, Bafana Bafana, are largely representative of the demographic, but they’re not very up there on the world stage. We tend to forget about them. We don’t tend to look at our individual athletes, like golfers, who are mostly white, as I suppose our runners, who are mostly Black. We tend not to have the conversation around that. We have it in teams because we’re a country of team sport and it’s – I think it’s been really sad, it’s really showed us how many issues we have.

Ben Horton

Thank you so much for that overview and for touching on so many different sports, as well. I just wondered, like, obviously, as you described, the situation demographically in South Africa is obviously very complex and unique, but I wondered whether, based on, sort of, your experience of, sort of, observing the enactment of these policies, these transformation initiatives, what would you say are the, kind of, key lessons that the rest of the world can draw from those policies when we’re thinking, as we’d like to, about, sort of, tangible solutions to take this discussion forward?

Firdose Moonda

I think one of the most important things to bear in mind is that quotas can appear a lot like a numbers game and so, you’re just getting people who are saying, “Okay, we need three Black players in the team, any three will do.” I mean, obviously they’re not picking people off the street, but it’s often a case of you’re just trying to fill that quota and then, the rest of the team fits around that.

I was talking to a National Convenor of Selectors many years ago about, “What can we actually do to change things in cricket?” And he said to me, “The problem is that the mindset has not changed and so, our mindset in this country is still very much that a White Coach is more likely to trust a White player than he is to trust a Black player, and the same for White teammates and Black teammates.” So, I think what the world needs to learn is that we’ve got to look not just at the sporting targets, we need to look at ourselves and our implicit biases and just the ways that we react to people of different races and why we react that way and who we trust and who we turn to for, you know, that port of call for support the first time you need something. And these are really the big issues that need to be addressed before we can come up with a situation where a national team is representative.

I find that with our Black sportsmen in this country, they need to be so, so, so, so good, they need to be absolute superstars before we’re willing to say that they’re good enough. Well, we’ve got a Kagiso Rabada or a Siya Kolisi, who’s now the Captain. We don’t allow for that not so superstar, but still very good level of sportsmen, African sportsmen of colour. You know, think of Hashim Amla, he’s so good because he’s pretty much the best, so, what about all the other young Indian Batsmen who are out there trying to make it? And I really think what the world needs to learn is not that a target system is colour by numbers, but it needs us to look into our hearts and to really see each other as people.

Ben Horton

Thank you so much, and yeah, that’s fascinating. Yath, could I turn to you now? Obviously, you’re involved in sports administration and pulling together Formula One’s response to this movement. I wondered if you could just begin by telling us a bit about how F1 has reacted to the events of 2020? Obviously, we’ve seen individual drivers like Lewis Hamilton, being incredibly outspoken personally, but from an organisational perspective, what’s been your response?

Yath Gangakumaran

Thanks, Ben. Hi, everyone, thanks for having me today. You know, I think for us, we actually put together a Diverse Inclusion Plan last year, which is on our corporate website. I think the key for us is, if we’re to enact real change in a sport which, let’s be honest, is still predominantly White and male and wealthy, then we need to look at things systemically. And we need to look at things systemically actually across the whole value chain of Formula One. Now, when people think of the sport, initially they think of the athletes, first and foremost, so, you know, to Biko’s point about the global platforms that athletes have. But, actually, for us, our athletes are only 20 drivers in an industry that has tens of thousands of people working in it. So, if we’re to really enact change and make the sport more diverse and inclusive, we actually need to be looking at our workforce, at the people who work in the teams, the Engineers back at the factory, the people putting on the events. And we need to be thinking, actually, at the filter – the funnel of people coming through who want to apply to motorsports. They have to have very strong STEM backgrounds, for example. Do we have enough people from different backgrounds applying for those sort of roles?

So, our approach has actually been relatively grand and ambitious, but we think it has to be if we’re to enact real change and so, there are a number of things that we’re looking at. First is around the education side. You know, Formula One is the most technologically advanced sport in the world. We have a USP in STEM. Often, it’s actually our Engineers back at base who determine who wins a race and not the driver itself. And so, we are putting together – we already have a STEM programme, called F1 in Schools that over a million kids take part in each year, but we think we can go much bigger here. We want tens of millions of kids to be able to engage with STEM subjects, particularly young girls, particularly people from lower income groups, with STEM subjects in a way that’s more engaging, because we can use F1 content that’s, hopefully, a bit more exciting than how they’re currently taught STEM subjects at school.

But then, linked to that, you then need to have these talented young people feel as if there are opportunities to work in the sport. You know, for example, when I had, historically, looked to hire for my team, I will just put out a job ad on LinkedIn and I’ll get 2,000 people applying for the role, but they’re typically from more traditional backgrounds. So, we’re looking at how we recruit and we’re doing that in conjunction with the teams and with the FIA, who are the motorsports governing body, to ensure that when we all go to market, we’re not just going for the same sorts of person.

I think the point around quotas that Firdose mentioned earlier, there is something in being proactive, in offering opportunities for people from underrepresented backgrounds in our sport. So, we will be – I can’t talk officially about it today, but in the next two months, you will be seeing some very specific announcements from us around job opportunities and scholarships for people to get involved in Formula One. And then you look at the driver side, ‘cause as I men – you know, as has been mentioned, people do look at the athletes, first and foremost. We don’t have the most of diverse of driver groups at the moment and, unfortunately, because to get to Formula One it’s very, very expensive, there’s nothing to suggest it’s going to be even more diverse in the future. So, we’re looking at a fundamental reset of the casting infrastructure, which will be a big project and it could be ten years before you see young girls from different parts of the world coming through. But we think it’s the right thing to do today if we’re to really enact the change that we want to see.

So, our focus has really been on the actions that we can take to fundamentally make our sport more diverse and inclusive, not just at the driver side, but across the entire industry. I think there’s also a role to be played around, you know, the gestures that can be done and you see at the beginning of every race, there’s a racism gesture that we do, where the drivers wear racism T-shirts. We will continue to push that, but to be honest, if we don’t follow through with the action, then those gestures ring hollow. So, for us, it’s all about what are we actually going to do to make a change? As I said, in the next two months, you will be seeing some announcements from us and quite a lot of money being put in to execute against this. And this is just the start of a long process to systemically change the sport and make it more reflective of the world in which we race.

Ben Horton

Yeah, thank you very much. Just to follow-up on the driver’s side of things and to maybe bring in Biko’s point earlier about the platform that sportspeople have to comment on these issues. Obviously, we’ve seen sporting bodies in different sports deal with this better or worse. Some have, sort of, led the way and, sort of, had very clear, sort of, ways that they want their sportspeople to engage. Some have not wanted to do anything. Some have tried to inhibit what sportspeople can do and say on this issue. I just wondered whether that was something that Formula One struggled with in the early days? Was it always a question of getting very much onboard with the real structural tangible solutions, or was there a, kind of, deliberation over the, kind of, more messaging, kind of, aspects of this? And was it a difficult decision as to how you wanted to advise athletes to get involved with these conversations?

Yath Gangakumaran

Yeah, so, it’s quite complex, ‘cause obviously everyone – we all have our own personal views as to what’s going on in the world and what we think we should be saying and doing. As I ment – for us, as a sport, historically, we’ve always tried to act first and then we can tell the story. ‘Cause I think, you know, for Formula One’s Command saying, “We’re going to be diverse and inclusive,” if I were a naysayer, I’d say, “Where’s the proof?” And sort of, hence why we’ve been focusing more on setting up the structure to ensure that we are putting through the actions that we need.

In terms of the piece around gestures, you know, for us, we need to be cognisant of that, sort of, blurred line between something that’s a fundamental human right, so we think about end racism and no-one disagrees with that, versus something that gets a bit more political. You know, we’re a sport, you know, we’re, I guess, the only annual international sporting event, you know, from a top tier perspective. So, we travel to lots of different countries around the world. It’s very different to, say, the Premier League, although they have a global fanbase, all the matches take place in England, the NBA, all the matches take place in America. So, when we go to different countries, we have to remember we are guests in those countries. That’s not to say that we won’t talk about, you know, the fundamental things that are important to us as a sport, we also have to be reflective of things are different with different cultures. You know, we have been brought up in the Western World, we have a particular view on certain things, and we may think things done elsewhere are wrong. And, actually, if you’re brought up in a different part of the world, you may have a different perspective and it’s all subjective.

So, for us, it’s about ensuring that anything that’s a fundamental human right that we think we, as a sport, want to stand for, then we will allow people to, you know, to publicly make those statements. So, you, again, you’ll see the “End Racism” t-shirts, the Black Lives Matter t-shirts. When it starts getting into the political side, I think you’ve got to play a careful game. You know, we’re not a political organisation, we’re ultimately a sport that’s there for entertainment, but we also realise, and this is something that I think is really interesting in the sports industry, not just for this year, but I think over the next decade or so, there’s going to be a real push towards sports becoming much more activist, in terms of pushing social/environmental change, which sports have historically always strayed away from. So, I think we’re in interesting territory right now. But we want to make sure that what the drivers do and say reflect what we want to say as a sport, but also ensures that we are being respectful of the different countries that we go to and the fact that certain things are subjective. And just because we have a, you know, a British way of thinking about things, doesn’t mean that we’re any better than people from other countries and their views.

Ben Horton

Yeah, thanks very much. I’d like now to bring in some of our Common Futures Conversations members to weigh into this. Aurora Andrew, you’re based in the UK. I wondered if I could come to you first, just whether you had any reactions to what you’ve heard, or any particular questions for one or more of our panellists? Please do.

Aurora Andrew

Hmmm hmm, sure.

Ben Horton

The floor is yours.

Aurora Andrew

Yeah. Well, firstly, it’s a pleasure to be here and to have this conversation. I just wanted to address a few problems. So, especially that even if athletes, especially non-White Athletes, do use their platform to address racism, they face a lot of backlash and are often criticised, you know, losing support from their team, governing bodies, and so on and so forth, and especially their jobs are on the line. So, there’s a feeling that, you know, the topic of racism is a non-sporting matter or that politics and sport aren’t compatible. So, yeah, I just want to ask, you know, why are job sponsorships, endorsement deals, of minority athletes, especially, on the line when it – when they’re – it comes to fighting for equality? You know, as to quote Kaepernick, he did say, “Believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything.” And, you know, why is that the case? Do we have to revise employment law protections, especially for non-White athletes?

And my second question is, just to add to this, is, you know, it seems that athletes of colour are facing the issue of racism in sport alone, even after pledges and initiatives have been introduced. So, is it that the sports industry governing bodies profess to be more attuned to the sensitivity of the issue than they actually are, just because the situation is an improved thing? I mean, we keep going round in circles, so, you know, athletes are having to step in and demand change.

Hamilton did say in July, you know, “No-one else is going to do it,” when referring to who’s going to address the ineffectiveness of the FIA statements and gestures. So, you know, racism is a universal problem, it affects everyone, doesn’t matter which side you’re on, really, so, why isn’t it being treated as such? Yeah, and that’s it.

Ben Horton

Aurora, thank you so much for that. Before I come to the other two members, does anyone on the panel want to come in on anything that Aurora said there? I don’t mind who…

Yath Gangakumaran

Yeah.

Ben Horton

…goes first.

Yath Gangakumaran

I’ll start first. Thank you, Aurora, for those questions. I think you’re that in the past, when athletes, and I think particularly, actually, non-White Athletes, who have, sort of, stood up for what they believed in and where, actually, a lot of people probably believe in what they’re saying, certain sponsors have probably backed away. Why is, sort of – the question is why? And I think, for me, historically, you’ve seen brands wanting to try and be apolitical themselves and so, anything associated with political statements, they do, sort of, back away from. You’ve obviously – well, you know, we’ve obviously seen that with Colin Kaepernick not even being selected by an NFL team for the last four years.

I think what’s interesting is I actually think that the tide is turning there, and this goes back to my point earlier around how I think all sports organisations are going to have to play a role in social and environmental change. You just look at Nike, Nike backing Colin Kaepernick and doing the ad based all around Kaepernick led to their share price rocketing. So, they became more valuable as a company by standing up for this. You look at Raheem Sterling speaking out about racism and now he’s, essentially, the face, I think it’s Gillette, he’s doing the big advert talking about how, you know, he needs to be the voice of change. So, he’s getting more money from speaking out about this. So, I actually think the tide is turning there.

You know, you referenced Lewis. We’re actually working with Lewis on all of our plans. He’s created a commission that we’re working with, as well. Lewis is a fantastic ambassador for us, he’s our Grace Ambassador and you’ve obviously seen the back of my office. I think, for him, which is great to see, is he wants to see the change immediately. And one thing that I’ve learnt working in F1 is there are thousands of people who work here and probably, what, 250 different companies that sponsor the sport in some form, and lots of different stakeholders. So, to try and get everyone on the same page and agreeing to exactly the same actions, does take a while. But as I said, in – within the next two months you’re going to see some pretty, hopefully quite punchy, actions being announced by us and quite a lot of money being put behind it. So, you know, Lewis is right to always push us to make the change quicker, but we have been working with him and, as I said, you will be seeing some pretty systemic changes coming in the next couple of months.

Ben Horton

Thanks, Yath. Biko, Firdose, would you like to come in on anything that Aurora said, or…?

Firdose Moonda

Yeah, I think just in terms of athletes being on their own, what we saw towards, sort of, the middle of the South African movement was that after we had sportsmen of colour coming out, there were two things. The one was that our white cricketers were silent for a long time and partly, the thought behind that was that it can be difficult to go back to a conservative White community, having put out a statement in support of something like Black Lives Matter. And that it was glaring, it was really, really obvious that no White cricketers had spoken out about this. And then, the first five to speak out were from the Afrikaans community and they came out, sort of, within days of each other, all saying something, and equally, saying that it – that this was going to be difficult for them, in that they would be – it didn’t go as far as repercussions, but there would be people who didn’t – you know, who they were close to who didn’t subscribe to their views.

So, what we’re talking about, and I think what we’re looking for, is a system, and this is not just in sport, it would apply in a lot of industries, where you need allies who are willing to do some of the work for athletes of colour, to go and call out their communities, to go and say, “Actually, this is not right and we’re willing to say so,” and I think that’s what’s been problematic. So, Aurora, when you asked, you know, “Why does it seem as though sportsmen of colour are on their own?”, I think that that’s why, because finding willing allies has been so difficult. But I do think that sporting bodies are starting to change, in that we’re seeing even something like the International Cricket Council, which fined Moeen Ali for wearing a “Free Palestine” armband and so on, are taking a different approach. And so, they’re letting, they let players take a knee and I just feel like we’re at the point now where, as Yath was saying, people have almost realised the value, whether it’s market value or profit value, or actual moral value, of supporting this movement. And so, we’re going – now we’re going to start – the other question is how much of it is authentic and how much of it is just lip service and playing to the galley? So, yeah, that’s, kind of, my comment on that.

Ben Horton

Thank you so much. Biko, I wonder whether you want to come in on any of this, but also, maybe more specifically, this question of how athletes and sportspeople can organise and whether there is a sense of isolation, ever, if you, sort of, make a stand without knowing for sure that your teammates or your wider sports are, kind of, onboard?

Biko Adema

Thank you. Thank you, Ben. Well, I think when the matter is as big as it is right now, your teammates and your athletes will support you, okay? It’s very difficult to have – obviously, to be in a team where you have people from all sorts of backgrounds and, you know, with all different kinds of, you know, perceptions of life and, you know, this whole matter. But I think it’s only fair if teammates and the organisation come together in support of what one of their players is fighting for. Like when Kaepernick took the knee, I mean, he did it on his own at first. He never knew what was going to happen after that. But now, we’re seeing more and more sports organisations actually seeing that this is something that we need to talk about. Even like Yath mentioned [music] in the [music] Formula One, with Mercedes, Mercedes and Hamilton, he’s very, very vocal about the Black Lives Matter movement right now. And this will only – it will – it only needs to be done more and more often and people need to get this idea into their head that this is a real issue, and it needs to be talked about more and more. And as that goes along, I think, also, organisations will see that, like, we’ve – has – it has been mentioned already today, the benefit of talking about Black Lives Matter, you know, globally, or even in their endorsements, you know, and using that as a powerful way to communicate to the world and to the rest of the sporting fraternity. Yeah, that is, that’s my thought on that.

Ben Horton

Thank you very much, Biko. I want to move onto our other community members, but before I could, Aurora, do you have anything that you want to say in response to what you’ve heard?

Aurora Andrew

No, I’m actually quite pleased with what I’ve heard, yeah.

Ben Horton

Lovely, happy days, thank you, and thanks for your questions. I’d like to bring in Agnes Kigotho now, in Kenya, thank you for joining us. I hope your sound quality is okay. It’s great to see you here and thanks for helping to organise this event. Could you give us your thoughts and reflections on this?

Agnes Kigotho

Hi, first of all, I want to ask Firdose about the role of sports anchors in fuelling racism, because I feel they have a very – they are a very big chunk of this lot, in terms of racism, because their comments is what fuels Twitter to erupt, their racist comments, and then, this is leads on and on and on. And, also, I want to ask Yath – so, sorry for the disruption, sorry, I also want to ask Yath, can you please dilute for me that Formula One is an only elite people sport and what’s happening in the sport that Lewis is the only, I think the first and the only person to participate in Formula One? Is it you have to have this amount of money, is it about skin colour, was it – what is it about? And, also, in terms over the sport being only held in Africa twice, once in 1993 and I think 1958, in Morocco, that’s twice, are you guys being diverse about where are you are going to held such events, because in Africa, you guys have a very big and huge fanbase? And it’s unfortunate that there are no Africans in – who are sports raisers, yet, we have events, such as Safari Rallies, that are almost similar, but in different degrees, but I think with less posh cars.

And, yeah, and also, to Biko, have you experienced any type of discrimination during your trips? Have you been side-lined in your trips in how – in terms of treatment? Have you faced White preferability, in terms of how you guys are viewed as players? Also, I would want everyone to think about the role of brands in fuelling racism. In the BLM recently, so, people go and vandalised [inaudible – 44:49] that were discriminatory against Blacks. And I’m not pro-violence, but I’m just asking what about those brands that support these football clubs and are very racist and want it means, but just because they pump a lot of money in different football clubs, these clubs are not big in calling them out?

And then, finally, the role of fan clubs. For example, I’m a very big Manchester United fan, but I also watch other football, fanbases. If you listen to some fanbase clubs, for example, oh, I’m sorry, you mentioned that, there’s a lot of [inaudible – 45:39] passing and let’s say these fan clubs have around millions and millions of viewers and, yet, sports teams will disassociate themselves from such fanbase clubs, yet, behind the scenes, they pay these fan clubs. So, do you feel that is hypocritical, or should you just cancel the brands that are inasmuch for the money in support of sports, they should be cancelled, in terms of tarnishing the brand and [inaudible – 46:11]? Thank you.

Ben Horton

Agnes, thank you very much for that, and very interesting questions, loads there. And, also, just a quick reminder to our audience, if you want to ask any more questions of our panel, then please do put it in the ‘Q&A’ box below.

So, there was questions for everybody there and quite a lot to get hold of. I think I’ve written them all down. But Firdose, maybe if we come to you first. I think Agnes’ question was around the responsibility of Sports Journalists and TV Anchors to be responsible in this debate and whether your profession has reflected on how that has played out so far?

Firdose Moonda

I think the responsibility on Sports Journalist has changed a lot in the last couple of years, primarily because sports federations now can produce a lot of their own content and control a lot of the rights to their own content. So, it’s not as easy, necessarily, to get an exclusive story or even to be telling a different story to what you’re being fed. We’re getting a lot of prepared and pre-packaged content. So, number one, the responsibility of the Sports Journalist is now to take – I mean, I suppose it’s always been to be critical, but now, more than ever, it’s to be as critical as we can be, given that we’re being given a lot of information that we now need to sift through. And so, the message is being fed to us in a certain way and it’s up to us to really analyse and dissect what the message is all about.

I also think that the sports journalism industry is not exempt from the same issues of race and class that we’ve been speaking about, you know. For many, many years, for example, I was one of the very few women writing about cricket, or even, I mean, I did a little bit of football and rugby, as well, and so, you know, that’s a gender issue, but it’s very much been the same along race lines. You know, we had a, especially in South Africa, a particular guard of Sports Journalists who had come through, kind of, that period, straddling pre- and post-Apartheid, who were of one demographic and we’ve really seen that change over the last few years.

We’ve got quite a polarised media debate in this country, and specifically, where we’re seeing almost a lot of side taking, one way and then the other. Also, I think Sports Journalists often see themselves, you know, not necessarily as, kind of, real Journalists. They, sort of, see themselves as the mouthpiece for players, rather than the go-between between players and the fans and I suppose social media has also meant that that’s been taken away, because the players can reach the fans without us now. So, I almost feel as though the role of the Sports Journalist is going to change and is going to become much more of a role for those who are willing to analyse and dissect and really critique what is going on and much less of a match reporting, press conference taking and regurgitating quotes kind of thing, as it used to be. And that may also mean, and I almost feel like I hope I’m not, sort of, jinxing myself here, fewer jobs, because the media industry is closing up a little bit, especially in a country like ours.

But the coverage of the Black Lives Matter movement hasn’t been that responsible in South Africa. What we also saw, for example, was a popular radio show host, who hosted players who were banned for their role in a spot fixing scandal, many of whom were of colour, telling their stories, without a lot of questions being asked and, oftentimes, getting themselves into legal tangles between who – which Lawyer represented who and who did what? And that fuelled the narrative, actually, of Black players are being targeted and, “Look, all the players that were banned in the spot fixing scandal were of colour,” which, you know, the investigation was deemed very thorough by the International Cricket Council. So, I think that just created even more of a schism. I’m not sure we’re in a place, especially in South Africa, where we’ve got enough people just looking at the bigger picture and being able to remove themselves a little bit from it, which is ultimately the role of the Journalist. So, we’ve got some work to do there and, yeah, I guess responsible coverage and critical coverage is really what we want.

Ben Horton

Yeah, thank you so much. Yath, could we pick up on the questions that Agnes had for you? Quite a challenge, I thought. So, from what I heard, there was this this question around what makes Formula One as elite as you mentioned, what is underlying that and what can be done to address it? But, also, this question of Formula One’s activities in Africa, when are you going to be making returns to the continent and is that something that we could see pushing forward this more inclusive agenda?

Yath Gangakumaran

Yeah, so, take the first question on, sort of, elitism. I guess there’s, sort of, two points here. One is to become a driver in Formula One, unfortunately, it’s not like we wish it was. It’s not like football, where anyone around the world just has to get a ball and play and if they’re good enough, they will get spotted and then, they’ll eventually move to, you know, typically to Europe and do well, based on a meritocratic system. With carting, which is a, sort of, the first pillar of motorsports, parents spend lots of money, and we have anecdotal evidence that some people are spending £650,000 a year on souping up their karts, essentially making their karts a lot better for their kids, so that their kids have a better chance of doing well. I mean, obviously, with – F1 is not just about physical quality of the individual, it’s also about the engineering quality of the car. So, there’s always been this mix of man and machine, or human and machine and at the karting level, unfortunately, it’s there, as well, which means that, historically, you’ve had to have a lot of money, or come from families with a lot of money, to do well. That’s what we fundamentally want to change, which is why we’re looking at the whole structure of karting and that’s why I said it could be a ten year process, ‘cause we can introduce something now, then a ten-year-old kid in ten years’ time will be at the level to get into F1 and hopefully, they’ll come from much more diverse backgrounds.

There’s another side to it, which is less around how much money you spend to do well to become a driver, it’s more to work in an F1 team you have to be one of the best Engineers, Mechanics, etc., in the world. I mean, these are some of the most finely tuned manufacturing companies in the world, so, you have to be very, very good, in some ways, elite, at what you do from an engineering standpoint, in this sense. What we’re trying to do is say, “Well, actually, there are a lots of very talented young people who could be elite, but they haven’t necessarily been given the right support.” So, they haven’t gone to an Oxford or Cambridge, which is where they typically hire. They’re actually people who are really smart, who maybe couldn’t afford to go through to university, or have taken a slightly different path. We need to try and target them, so that, fundamentally, the people who end up working in F1, will still be the best of the best, but they’ll come from different backgrounds, more so. So, that’s, sort of, the first question.

On the second question, in terms of our presence in Africa, we do want to come back to the continent, to have races there. We were, actually, due to have a fan festival in Johannesburg, I think it was, this year. Unfortunately, due to COVID, we had to cancel it. We know that we have a fanbase there, we think we can grow it significantly, and to be honest, I think most sports organisations, bar, say, the NBA, haven’t really done too much to try and grow the fanbase on the African Continent. So, that’s something we definitely do want to do. The thing is we only have a set number of races. At the moment, we have long-term contracts, so, you can’t really break contracts to get ‘em in, but as has been made public, we have been in discussions with South Africa, in the recent past, and we know that there are a number of other countries that are very interested in having a Formula One race, so we just need to see if we can make it work commercially for both parties and, obviously, we need to have the space in the calendar to do that. We’re fortunate that a lot of people want to have an F1 race.

Ben Horton

Thanks very much, Yath. I think I would like to come to Biko now and just to follow-up with Agnes’ question there, which was, I guess, maybe a more personal reflection, from you, if you don’t mind sharing, or obviously not if it’s not something you want to talk about.

Biko Adema

No, no, no, I’m fine sharing that and I think Agnes asked some very nice and important questions, actually. So, she asked whether I have, or have we, as a team, been treated differently when we’ve travelled all over the world for our different 7s games or 15s games. So, well, I do think, you see, it’s – it is perspective as well, because I think there have been points where, or times when we have been in certain areas and I would say, for example, the changing rooms that have been allocated to the Kenya team have not been the best that – you know, available. And I remember there was one point where that was a big issue with our Team Manager, and he was always wondering why are we not allocated some of the better rooms? Even in hotels, even the dining area, you know, it’s lit – things like those. But, like I say, it might have been just something to do with perspectives, but I also think some of these situations could have been moments or times when there was a little bit of bias against the Kenya team, or – you know, even on the pitch, even on the playing pitch, on the field, when calls are – it’s – are, you know, lean – and the calls made by the Ref lean more to favour one team than the other just because, you know. Just because you’re a smaller nation, or, you know, or might be a racial thing, also, you never know.

But, yeah, so, those are the situations where some of our teammate – some of my teammates, or even the team management, have been, you know, really, like, under – just thinking too much about the whole, entire situation that has occurred in that particular time and wondering what exactly was going on. But I cannot pick out one exact moment, however, I do remember where there was this one time one of my teammates said that he was told something in the – in a game, in a rugby game, by another team – another player, the opposing player, and it really got to him and they – it – they almost started a fight. But, yeah, so, those are the moments that I can pick out from now that I can recall maybe I’ve seen a bit of bias or a bit of a racial – racism towards me and my team, or my teammates.

There was also this one instance when we were lining up in the tunnel, just about to go onto the field, and we were playing a certain big team, yeah, in the series and one of their players said something like, “Ah, these guys they don’t even know English.” Obviously, he was speaking in English and it was like, “These guys don’t even know English.” And, you know, it frustrated us and, actually, we went out onto the pitch to beat that team, I won’t mention the team for now, but, you see, like – so, those are some of the scenarios I can recall, or I have witnessed, that where maybe the – some remarks, or some treatment that was given towards the Kenya team or, you know, was a bit harsh and a bit bias raci – saw a bit of racial bias, in my opinion or – yeah, but other than that, those are the only situations I can think of at the moment. But it’s a very interesting question and thank you, Agnes, for that one.

Ben Horton

Thanks, Biko. I’m conscious that we’ve only got 15 minutes left and I want to bring in Mwape. So, while Agnes asked some really interesting questions on the role of brands and what we can do, as sporting organisations, to, sort of, pressure brands to be more inclusive and to change their policies, I think maybe we can, sort of, add that into, sort of, closing remarks, if that’s alright with you panellists.

So, Mwape Chisonde down in Zambia, thank you for joining us. I just wondered if you had some quick reflections or questions that you wanted to bring into this discussion that haven’t already been covered?

Mwape Chisonde

And good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for having me on this platform. Of late, we have seen a public awakening to racism in sports. Strong statements, powerful gestures, initiatives, have been launched. Unfortunately, tangible actions have failed to match the words. I will give an example. A year ago, we saw a match between England and Bulgaria played in Sofia. It was halted twice over racist abuse and nothing tangible was done, and I’m glad that Mr Gangakumaran has emphasised on actions in his presentation. My question to you, sir, how best can we improve on the actions to match the words? Thank you.

Yath Gangakumaran

Thanks, Mwape. Yeah, I mean, this ultimately all comes down to actions, as I’ve mentioned and you suggest, as well. How best to do that? I think, to be honest, I think there needs to be – you need to have the right leadership in place at these sports organisations, who know that you can’t just, you know, put up stuff that says, “Say no to racism” and so on, and think that’s good enough. So, I think there’s a piece around having the right leaders in place. I do think that the more that the media can push on the actions point, rather than the gestures point, the better. So, there’s a great – I know I’m just taking the UK example, so apologies, but Les Ferdinand, who is an ex-England Football Player, he is now the Technical Director of a football club, QPR. They did not take the knee at a recent match and they said, “The time for gestures is done and we’ve been waiting for years, for decades, for actions to take place.” And he actually pointed the finger at the media, who had a go at the QPR team for not taking a knee, where he said, “Actually, I’ve been talking about systemic racism for years and actually, systemic racism within the media industry, what are you doing about it?” So, I think the media can play a part in maybe rethinking how it covers, and I’m thinking mainly about the UK media, I guess, how it’s covering racism in sport. It’s not just about the gestures, it’s what are the actions to come through?

I think fans can play a role, as well, if – you know, to continue to push organisations to be better. So, I think you need to have the wider ecosystem involved in it. We’ve talked about brands already. Sponsors have a big role to play, given that they’re putting in, you know, between them, billions of dollars into sports organisations around the world. So, it’s going to take a collective ambition to do it, but the big thing is, you need the right leaders in place who are willing to put their money where their mouth is and push through with the actions. And thankfully, that’s – seems like that’s what we’re going to be doing, but, you know, there’s a lot more that we can do and there’s a lot more that all sports can do.

Ben Horton

Thank you very much, Yath, and thanks, Mwape, for that contribution. Right, so, we’re going to take some audience questions now. We only have about 12 minutes left, so, what I propose that we do is we allow each of our audience questioners to unmute and ask their questions, we’ll take them altogether and then, maybe our panellists can, kind of, fold those into, kind of, closing remarks, if that works for everybody, rather than taking in each in turn. So, we have a question here from Samuel Arnold. Can you unmute for us, Sam?

Samuel Arnold

Hi there, yeah, my question was for Yath about Formula One’s role, quite specifically, so I apologise for that. But just, I wondered if you thought that Formula One’s response would’ve been as robust if their star driver hadn’t been a person of colour and he, sort of, forced that conversation upon you. And secondly, you mentioned being a guest in host countries when you travel abroad, and I wondered if that view of not upstetting the stat – not upsetting the status quo was a political stance in and of itself? Thank you.

Ben Horton

Thank you very much, Samuel. So, Yath, if you bear that question in mind. We will move to Zakaria, please, if you could unmute, just briefly, for your question?

Zakaria

Yeah, thank you, Ben. I had two questions for – mainly for Biko Adema, speaker Biko Adema, and, also, for Yath. The first question that I would like to ask Biko Adema is whether, in his career, or with the interactions with his friends and fellow players, did he witness or know of forms of administrative racism or bias regarding race, or when it comes to payment, treatment by Coaches, treatment by federations? And I would also like to know, for here in Nigeria, we don’t have player syndicates or, per se, unions that preserve the right and that stand up for players when it comes to their contracts, when it comes to their right of speak or speak out when something happens within a club, because most of the times, player find themselves in a situation where if they speak out they will be hurt in their team or their club. So, I would like to know if players can form a syndicate or union to better protect themselves against such things? That is, essentially, the first question.

The second question, for Yath, is when he mentioned that mainly Engineers and Technicians in the Formula One are certainly of a higher level of education and experience, since Formula One is an exhibition, a form of exhibition by major companies. But it still begs the question why no drivers are recruited from rallies or some events that may be hosted to recruit, regardless of karting for – at the – for young people. But other players can be recruited from other events, for, like, even event, like small events that – to spot some talent, or whatever, and, yeah, I would like to thank you all for this great opportunity. Thanks.

Ben Horton

Thank you very much, Zakaria. Now we have a question here from Leah Dahan.

Leah De Haan

Hi there, and my question is what are your thoughts on changing who is considered the appropriate audience for a sport, what role should organisations, Journalists and athletes play in making sure that all sports are considered of interest to people, regardless of their race, their gender, their class, etc.? Thank you very much.

Ben Horton

Thanks very much, Leah, that’s great. And then, finally, the question I’d like to bring in is from Quiran Lubka. Would you like to unmute for us, there?

Quiran Lubka

Yes, hi, my question’s related to South Africa, specifically, and I was wondering whether sport can help society to move towards greater racial integration, and if yes, how? Or does sport just reflect society and, therefore, only changes us when society changes? Thank you.

Ben Horton

Thank you very much and thank you, all of you, for being relatively brief, as well, with our questions. So, I think we’ve now got plenty of time for, kind of, closing remarks. And I think, judging from the questions that we had in, like, maybe Yath, we’ll begin with you, if that’s okay? So, just any final remarks that you want to say, your reactions to this conversation, but then, also, responses to these questions. You’ve got the question from Samuel around the leadership of Lewis Hamilton and whether change would’ve happened, had someone very prominent not been driving it forward, and then, also, that question from Zakaria about alternative pathways for drivers, as well.

Yath Gangakumaran

Sure, yeah, and thanks, guys, for the questions, really good questions. To answer your question in a very short manner, would we still be pushing the diversity and inclusion agenda if we didn’t have a Black lead driver? The answer is yes. We actually spent 12 months putting together our sustainability and diversity and inclusion plans over the course of 2019, so, this was before Black Lives Matter, and we just know it’s – not only is it the right thing to do, it’s also good from a fan perspective. We’ll be able to get a larger number of fans, particularly from more diverse backgrounds, if we are more reflective of society, and it’s the right thing to do commercially. I’ve mentioned it a couple of times now and as, sort of, a closing remark, around how commercial partners are now stepping away from being completely apolitical and looking to align themselves with brands, which have similar values to them and to their customers. And as we know, you know, everyone wants to push for greater equality, from a racial and gender perspective.

In terms of the question around, you know, being guests in host countries, it – us not saying something in that country, is that a political statement? I think that’s actually – you can literally use that point for any comment or lack of comment that’s made, so, I don’t think that’s – it is a political statement in that sense, ‘cause I – as I said, I think you can go down a very, sort of, tricky path, if you do or don’t say anything around any subjects.

In terms of Zakaria’s question around should we be looking at other motorsports’ series? Actually, you need a very particular type of skillset to drive a Formula One car. We have had people from different series try and race, you know, say, our Formula Two cars, Formula Three cars, in the past and just not been as successful, because the cars are very, very unique and different to use. But that being said, the teams do look around the world for great racing talent and will continue to do so, and, you know, well, as we start to get involved in karting ourselves, we are going to keep a very close eye and have, potentially, specific programmes for people from specific countries and backgrounds.

Ben Horton

Thanks very much, Yath, and Biko, I’d like to come to you now, Biko Adema. If you could give us your responses to the questions that were, sort of, posed to you. Obviously, Zakaria’s question around whether you witnessed any forms of administrative bias or racism from Coaches or federations. And then, also, this question around player unions and whether…

Biko Adema

Okay.

Ben Horton

…athletes should organise.

Biko Adema

Okay, yeah. Personally, I have not witnessed any administrative bias or, you know, where some special treatment just because maybe some teams or federations have given any financial, you know, backing, just to get better treatment, I have not witnessed that. I do think, however, that that has happened, possibly without many people knowing, but I have not witnessed it. Definitely that those discussions that you hear, maybe people say that, “Oh, so and – such and such a team” or “players have been treated better because,” you know, “they had probably gave some financial backing for that to happen.” But I have not witnessed it personally.

About the player unions, yes, I agree that player unions should exist. I know in Kenya there was a point when that discussion was up and it was actually suggested by the players, the current players, who wanted to have such a union, a welfare for players, so that, you know, after they leave the game or even while still in the game, we can support each other, in terms of, you know, financial backing from our clubs and from the Kenya Union, and the rights to players, you know, and such things, and, you know. But it has not yet been started here, unfortunately. It is something, definitely, we need to think about.

There was an international union that the IRB had or – at some point and I was even part of that, actually, but that was just for the international series, yeah. I think it should also be brought down to local unions and people need to open such, or have such discussions around player welfare, from a player’s perspective, where players are the ones who are initiating it and getting the support they need during difficult times, you know. So, I do think that is very important to have a player union. In Kenya right now we do not have it, but, hopefully, we can head in that direction.

Ben Horton

Biko, thank you very much for that, and finally, Firdose, I wondered if you could pick up that question around audience and whether sporting organisations should be thinking about, in, sort of, trying to change the, sort of, minds, or the participation, of the people who are the spectators for sport? And then, also, that question on South Africa, specifically, and whether sport can drive forward change within South Africa, or whether it will always just remain a, kind of, mirror for societal dynamics that are harder to shift?

Firdose Moonda

Yeah, I think to the first question, it should absolutely be the responsibility of sports organisations and media to think about how to attract audiences to different types of sports and I think women’s sport is a case in point there. For many, many years we heard arguments about that women’s sport not being well-attended, well-watched and so, therefore, it wasn’t attracting sponsorship. But we’ve seen – and in something like the Women’s T20 World Cup, which took place earlier this year, which packed out the MCG for the final, it was the last cricket we had before lockdown. Think about the Women’s Football World Cup last year, which was – just received so many eyeballs and was really – I suppose people will call it the gamechanger, because we’re now getting sponsorship and we’re getting a lot more fans interested in it. But I found it a really interesting experience in that also what we found was that the traditional audience, you know, the men who we wouldn’t think would be sitting in the pub watching the Women’s Football World Cup, were there and were really interested in it for reasons beyond the, kind of, stereotypical crassness that we would normally associate with men watching women’s sport.

So, I think that’s come because unions have got together and decided we’re going to push women’s sport. It does need corporate backing, so, definitely, for example, in South Africa we saw that the Women’s National Cricket Team were only able to be professionally contracted when they got a financial services company to back those contracts and now the sponsor is actually pulling out. So, yeah, you need a little bit of goodwill, but you also need the sporting organisations to realise that the more good quality stuff you can put out there, and it will be good quality, because we’re at that point now where sport that is professional has reached a particular standard, then the more likely they are to be reaching all kinds of audiences. And I think the responsibility is then also on people to cover those sports, to make sure that they’re talking about it. And luckily, you know, we don’t need traditional media, we can get out there on so many different forums now and you can become interested in so many things, so much more easily. So, yes, the responsibility is there, but also the opportunity to get interested in different kinds of sports is also there.

And then, to the question on South Africa, I think that for national unity, what you find is that when big sporting things happen, like a Rugby World Cup win, and luckily, we’ve had three of those, so we can point to them, it unites the nation fleetingly. So, in 1995 we had a little moment where people thought, oh, wow, this country that has just come into democracy, you know, amazingly, have managed to come together and win this. It didn’t change the reality. It didn’t mean that the millions of Black South Africans living in poverty were suddenly not living in poverty. It was a small moment, and it was gone before we knew it.

The same with the 2010 Football World Cup. The 2019 Rugby World Cup has probably gone the quickest of all of them, because it came, it was a huge success, you know, the country was absolutely united. We had a trophy tour that went on for months, it seemed like, and it disappeared very soon after that inter – you know, talks about gender-based violence and then the Black Lives Matter conversation. And so, I think that, on the whole, sport will only ever be the miracle, only ever tell us what’s happening in society. And we can see that so clearly in a country like South Africa, where you only need to look at the demographic makeup of the team, you only need to look at who is in the position of elitism to know who’s in the position of elitism in the country as a whole.

So, it’s great, because we’ve got the sport as a yardstick. We can look to it and it tells us, probably, the story of our country, even from a gender perspective. You know, our women’s sport has taken so long to get to the place where somebody like New Zealand’s women’s sport has been professional and popular and right up there for so many more years. So, yeah, it’s interesting that we can use sport in that way, because in South Africa and in many other countries, that’s our barometer. We’re a sports mad country, but at the same time, it tells us how many problems we have. And maybe not the happiest note to finish off on, but just to say that I really find that what’s happened in the Black Lives Matter conversation, it has brought people who preferred to pretend that sport and politics were separate, to really confront the issue. And, for me, that’s what’s important, you know, the personal has always been political, so, at least we can express that now.

Ben Horton

That’s a fantastic thing to end on. Thank you so much, Firdose, I really appreciate your comments and the comments of everybody that engaged with us today. Thank you very much to Biko Adema, Yath Gangakumaran and Firdose Moonda for being wonderful panellists. Thank you very much to Aurora, Mwape and Agnes for your remarks and your contributions from the Common Futures Conversations Community and thanks, also, to our audience for your questions and for being with us today. I hope that you found it as interesting as I did. I think that the big, kind of, takeaways around this, for me, at least, is very much that kind of idea that sport has a vital role to play in this. But that if we’re going to see real change, it’s got to be a focus on tangible solutions, the policies and the like of which Yath has been talking about today, and I hope that we can continue these conversations and that Chatham House remains a space where we can discuss these issues. Thank you very much for joining us and enjoy the rest of your day.