James Nixey
Well, good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning if you’re in London, good afternoon if you’re anywhere East of London, and welcome to the very end actually, of a series of discussions Chatham House has been having with all eight candidates for the position of Director-General of the WTO, to better understand their stances on the challenges to global trade. And so, lastly, [audio cuts out – 00:45] about his vision for the future of the WTO. Before I introduce the Ambassador, perhaps just a few house rules. The first house rule, ironically, is that we are not under the Chatham House Rule today. We’re on the record, and we are recording this event. It can be viewed later on the Chatham House website. If you’d like to tweet, therefore you can under the handle #CHEvents.
After I have asked a few questions of the Ambassador, for the first 15/20 or so minutes, please ask questions yourself using the ‘Q&A’ function, not the ‘Chat’ or the raise hand function, they’ve been disabled, and ideally, you can ask a question yourself. If you don’t wish to, that’s fine, I will ask it for you, just let me know, but we’ll unmute you if you do. You are muted right now. But, to begin with, I will ask several questions myself, along the lines that have been done for the previous candidates who have been in this series here.
Now, let me introduce Ambassador Ulianovschi in full. He has been one of Moldova’s top Diplomats for a decade now. In recent times, he has risen to Minister of Foreign Affairs in 2018 to 2019. Prior to that, he was Moldova’s Ambassador to Switzerland, which of course, also means being the key representative to all the international organisations located there, including of course the WTO. In academic terms, Mr Ulianovschi has a PhD in International Law, and he has specialised in the so-called frozen conflicts, which beset the region, which I’m personally very keen to ask him about, but really cannot here, it’s not quite on-topic, so we’ll have to do that another time. But in the meantime, Ambassador, welcome, and thank you, and let’s make a start here. Perhaps I could ask you a really general question at the outset, sir, really it’s about your overarching attitude to global trade, your philosophy for global trade, how does it engender prosperity, in your view, perhaps what are its limits, and how do you see that, sort of, delicate balance between overregulation and non-regulation?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, thank you and thank you so much, James, for this very kind introduction, I appreciate that and always honoured to be with Chatham House and, of course, today’s conversation is important as well for the entire world, but also, particularly, for the multilateral trading system. I am strongly in favour of the word free, fair trade, and I’m a strong supporter of multilateral trade system and I believe that, in the course of its existence, the WTO has done good for its members and I’m sure that it will continue to do so.
Nevertheless, having said that, I am a strong believer of the fact that any organisation in the world today needs to adapt to the 21st Century realities, and that includes the ongoing challenges, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, but also, the financial crisis, there is a rise of protectionism measures on the national level and I believe that, overall, we do need an organisation that is a rules-making organisation that has also a mechanism on how these rules, first of all, are negotiated by a member, second are followed, and third, have a system of analysing and the cases or disputes of breaching or potential breaches of the system. And, from that point of view, I think it’s a very holistic approach and I would say to everyone that it’s better to have a system than not having a system. So, the question is not if to have or not, but the question is how would you adapt? Because I strongly believe there is a need for reform, for a deep reform of the organisation, and that is, I think, an overarching priority.
The philosophy would be that we would need to increase the level of economic development of people, because today, we have a situation where WTO, in the course of its existence, has managed to help lots of people to get out of poverty. But still, there is a big number of communities, globally, especially in the least developed countries and some of the developing members, facing with these challenges and from this point of view, I would say that the negative impact of COVID-19 has highlighted the inequalities today and WTO is more relevant and necessary than ever.
James Nixey
Thank you very much, Ambassador, that is a great opening statement, and perhaps I could just feed from it. You mentioned that you were a strong advocate of free and fair trade. So, perhaps just building on that, can I just ask you, do you think that free trade is always fair trade? And I mentioned something about the limits earlier, because obviously, not everybody has benefitted from the advances in global – in the global trading system, some people in some countries, in developing countries, could be said to have been moved into poverty by it. So, just tell me a little bit about where the limits are. If you were to remove, for example, all subsidies immediately, then there would be problems, there’s more – perhaps a more gradual removal of subsidies is the way forward. So, I’m just asking a little bit about the limits because, as I say, under – overregulation causes problems, but under-regulation surely causes problems as well.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, again, if you go to the extremes, I think that it’s – it will not work either way. So, everywhere is about finding the right balance between how fast to make the trade flows free, and I think that always has been and will be for a while a work in progress for the WTO and, particularly from this perspective, I think that it’s very important to focus, or to refocus the organisation to benefit those that have not fully benefitted or have not fully integrated into the multilateral trading system. And I believe that we need to focus on capacity building on the ground for those members that have not felt or are feeling that there is a risk for opening up too fast and too soon, and not being able to deal with the competition. And from that point of view I think we need to be very careful because of the, as I mentioned, the negative impact of the pandemic and the financial crisis on the major industries. And I’m not saying only about the local value chains in goods or trade, but also trade and services and, from the same point of view, I think we need to focus the work of the organisation to better communicate the advantages, while also understanding the limits of its activity, because we have also the national governments that have their own national sovereignty. And from that point of view, the organisation needs to strengthen the capacity of the LDCs particularly, but also, to encourage those that have various regional formats of co-operation and/or agreements that the benefits are multilateral and everyone benefits from any regional or plurilateral dimension, based on the most favourite nation, for example, principle for the LDC members. And I would strongly be in favour of refocusing the work of the organisation for supporting the MSMEs, and SMs, the micro, small and medium enterprises, because in the vast majority of the WTO members, the SMEs and MSMEs comprise more than 90, sometimes 95/97% of their economy. So, I think it’s very important to be able to empower them, to focus not on trade barriers, but on trade facilitation measures that will allow a more freer and inclusive flow of goods.
From that point of view, I think that this is the vision, or the way to move forward. We’ll have to be very clear on the third dimension of the priorities for the World Trade Organization, and that’s monitoring and transparency system, because we have the so-called principle of notification of national actions to the WTO Secretariat, and I think it’s important to strengthen this dimension. So, every member has to promptly inform the organisation and everybody else on the domestic measures taken, and that will also increase the transparency, and inadequately will remove or will decrease the risks for negative spill over effect for the neighbours or for the smaller and vulnerable economies.
James Nixey
Thank you very much indeed. You referred, of course, to the COVID-19 pandemic that’s affected us all so extraordinarily. So, I suppose any candidate, anybody who takes this job of Director-General is coming into the position at the most extraordinary time, considering the possibility of a global recession, certainly a global turndown. So, what role precisely, inasmuch detail as you can, and in your three/four-minute answers, Ambassador, what role precisely can the WTO play in avoiding the worst effects of a global recession, and the ravages of COVID-19? I suppose, ‘cause, again, I mean, just on the previous question, I presume that members will be more active in their economies, they’ll be asking for protection, and that’s something you’ll be battling against in some ways.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, that’s a very good question, James, but it’s also a very complex question. Let me start with the fact, or maybe the message, that COVID-19, the way I see it and the way I think the organisation members should see it, it should be seen as a wake-up call. A wake-up call for more transparency and more inclusiveness, but at the same time, for more relevance of the organisation. Number one, I think it’s extremely important today to make sure that the facilitation of trade in goods, particularly in the industrial or in the manufacturing system, should not be disrupted, and I think it’s very important, trade in services, logistics and transportation services should not be disrupted, because these are the elements, or many members are depending on the global value chains because they’re a part of it.
So, from that point of view, I think it’s very important from the trade dimension to make sure that there is the continued flow and where there are disruptions, based on the notification system, to understand on how to intervene and how to increase the national capacity, for example, the tourism industry, for example, today has been very much affected for many members. At the same time, dealing particularly with COVID-19 , from the trade dimension, we have the so-called flow or global value chains of medical equipment, EPP and medical supplies, and I think it would not be fully nationalised and the same time we also have to make sure that there is a flow of agricultural or agri-food products, which is of national security, I would, say, perspective.
From this particular dimension, I think that WTO has to work much closer with the World Health Organization and the Food and Agricultural Organization in Rome to make sure that there is a holistic approach to deal with COVID-19, from the medical perspective, from the trade perspective, and from the food security perspective. And I think that now, since we are also facing or hearing about more conversations on vaccination or vaccines from different parts of the world, along with WHO efforts to identify the best vaccination method, we have to make sure to avoid nationalisation of vaccination procedures, to make sure that on one hand, I fully understand the capacity of some members to be able to generate or to have a more increased capacity on working on this. Whereas, others will not have, so we have to make sure that there is as fewer barriers as possible.
Going back to your question about the protectionism measures and, look, I want to be very clear, and we have to be realpolitik, as you say also in geopolitics, who understand that COVID-19 has caught most of us, or if not all of us, off-guard and the immediate reaction by WTO members, or some of them, or the majority of them, was to make sure, and any government has to protect its own citizens, and was to make sure that they, national governments, they do as much as possible to protect their economies. And on one hand, I understand these matters, but these matters should be promptly notified to the WTO Secretariat and they should not be seen as permanent measures. They should be seen, and I think that the next DG should also raise awareness and encourage members to gradually reduce and/or eliminate such actions. I would like to caution against the fact that, you know, there is a phrase of any temporary measure has a risk of being seen. There is nothing permanent as temporary. So, we have to be absolutely clear and to act in those cases, when these actions of protectionism nature in some members have a negative or have a potential negative effect on the economies and trade engagement and commitment of other members. So, from that point of view, I think it’s on one hand, understandable, but we need to act together.
James Nixey
Thank you, that is a detailed answer to a complex question indeed. And if that weren’t a challenge enough, Ambassador, then I suppose you could argue that the even greater challenge from the slowdown of COVID-19 is that of climate change and environmental degradation, you know, these are some of the principal Sustainable Development Goals of the UN. So, I suppose, what is the connection you see between global trade and sustainable development? How do you – is there a tension you see when you consider that for global trade to function effectively, you need air traffic, air traffic causes so much pollution, particularly freight traffic, commercial and trade traffic. So, how do you resolve that tension when you, on the one hand, need to bolster the economies, to – but at the same time, we’re working towards a slightly frictious goal of effectively saving the planet? Do you see these things in competition with each other, or can you, in some way, connect your goals and your mission to the UN sustainable development goals?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, that’s a good question. I think we have, all of us, have to think about how making sure, or at least making the effort, that the trade discussion and the SDGs or 2030 UN Agenda have to be seen as complementary to each other. On one hand, the national governments have taken the commitment towards, or as members of the UN, to fully implement the Sustainable Development Goals. On the other hand, I fully understand where you’re heading, with the talk of trade and trade may not be fully ready, or trade members may not be fully ready to, you know, to switch to the, for example, all green industry methods.
That takes time and I think WTO itself could not deal with that, it has to be an overarching effort, together with other agencies, particularly UNEP, from the UN system, and others as well. But let me tell you several examples what I think about the ongoing negotiations, and we have one ongoing negotiation at the multilateral negotiation within the WTO, and that is the fisheries subsidies, which I think is a very important topic, not only for WTO, but also for the UN SDGs because the fisheries subsidies elimination, especially on the IUUs, are particularly referred in point 14.6 of the 2030 Agenda. So, that is a part of WTO’s role in implementing or helping members implementing the UN 2030 Agenda. Nevertheless, this is also an environmental component here, and when we talk about the plastic waste, for example, there is this notion, and I think we need to strengthen the work of WTO, on dealing with circular economy. And I have particularly spoken with countries from Latin America, but also from Africa, and I know that countries like Senegal and others are using the plastic waste and recycling it and, for example, making the PPE, you know, face protection elements, while also using, or reusing, the plastic taken from the oceans.
So, I think that’s something that we have to work together and WTO can benefit from the idea of circular economy and to make sure that it also increases, or being seen as an empowerment tool at the national grassroots level in the least developed members.
James Nixey
Thank you. You referred in your answer to a previous question, Ambassador, to thinking about the national – the needing to avoid the nationalisation of vaccines, and it sort of made me think about the differences, in some ways, between different approaches to globalisation we’re currently seeing. You come from a European country, in my opinion, in fact, I consider Moldova to be a European country as a matter of fact, as everyone may, and I suppose I’m asking where do you see – in what areas are the US, which has been fighting against this in ways recently, against multilateral organisations, and Europe aligned, where are US and EU aligned, and where are the major differences between Europe and the US?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, I believe, and I’ve had conversations with both Washington, Brussels, Paris, Berlin and other important capitals within the European Union, as well as with Asian capitals, such as Beijing and Tokyo and others, and I see, on the fundamental level, that while there are concerns expressed by the major players, with regards to the fact that the current system is not fulfilling, or is not seen as fully beneficial for them, I think on the more fundamental level all of them, they are in favour of a multilateral system. So, I think it’s a good foundation to build upon.
Second, we are also, unfortunately, facing an unprecedented level of trust or mistrust, I would say, within the organisation and we have not seen any – which has been expressed in non-existent de facto negotiations at the multilateral level within the organisation. I think that some of the concerns expressed by both the European Union and by the United States, particularly I think are important to be better understood, with regards to the disputable system of the organisation, because this is also a judicial arm of the organisation and which I think is extremely important to – for the next DG to be able to deal at the political level to increase the political will or to generate it. So, there is the will to engage in negotiations on how to restructure the disputable system of WTO, including the Appellate Body, but also the entire system, that would be one element.
The second element would be also the ongoing negotiations at the plurilateral level on eCommerce or digital trade, and here, I think it’s extremely important, in my opinion, today more than ever, and COVID-19 has proven it, that eCommerce or digital trade should be made as an empowering tool. But here, we enter in different dimensions of digital trade, of data protection on intellectual property, protection and regulation, you have the moratorium on the customs duties for electronic transfers and so forth, and these are elements, I think, they are details, but very important details, because these details are important for the businesses, from both the US, the European Union, and others. So, we need to avoid the situation of the vacuum or rules. We need to have rules and regulations.
Where we don’t have rules at this point, this is where the issues start, and I think that the concerns expressed, particularly by the United States, are reflecting the fact that we do not have rules where they should be or we’re not implementing some of the existing rules. And I think this is something that, from my perspective, of course it’s a member driven organisation, so members will have to decide for themselves where and in which negotiations to engage. But it’s good that DG level, the Director-General understands that there is a good foundation and, in my case particularly, knowing the issues as a former Ambassador for the WTO, but also having the political experience on how to deal with leaders, I think that’s important, because today, besides the trade issues, unfortunately, within the organisation, we have an increased level of politicisation of many issues.
James Nixey
That’s very interesting, and considering those challenges, I mean, it’s not – do you consider the challenges to the WTO and the global trading system, do you consider them to be primarily technical or primarily political in nature?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, the obvious answer, of course, is a bit of both. At the same time, I would more incline to the political dimension and that is why I think that, as a former Ambassador, I know that the instructions to the Geneva-based Ambassadors are coming from the capitals, and in capitals there are different governments, and these governments are responsible to their own citizens. So, from this point of view, I think it’s very important that the next DG has this combination of political and plus technical. At the same time, I would not say that everything or all the issues have a political reason of existing. Sometimes I would even encourage to have a more open mind on the technical negotiations, and we have a similar situation within the organisation, where we have so-called the unfinished business negotiations on agriculture, on market access, domestic support, export competition and so forth. And these negotiations have not moved for the past almost 20 years, and sometimes, you would need to have both Technicians coming with new approaches and new ideas on how to deal with the unresolved or older issues. But for that to happen, and I want to be very clear here, in my opinion, we would need – to get things moving, we would need to have the political will, and that’s why the first actions of the next DG should be of a political character.
James Nixey
Thank you very much indeed. I want to come in myself at the end again, because I have a question about the post-Soviet region, I just can’t help myself, it’s my own training, sir, but I am obligated to and it would be very good to hear from people who know much more about this and the global trading system than I do. So, I’m going to turn it over to questions from the audience and ideally bring them in. So, Euan Grant, whom I know very well ‘cause he’s a good friend of Chatham House, is the first on my list and has a question about the relationship with other international organisations. I wonder, Euan, if I could entreat you to ask the question yourself, please? If not, don’t worry, I will do it, but we will try to unmute you. If I don’t hear from you in five seconds, I’ll ask it myself.
Euan Grant
Am I unmuted?
James Nixey
You are Euan. Good to hear from you.
Euan Grant
Well, thank you, Ambassador, I speak as someone who’s worked on international programmes in Moldova. James, right at the start, made the point about your experience being accredited to Swiss-based international organisations, how do you see working with them, both at a political and what we might call operational level? We’ve seen major international scandals over the years and I can’t help feel that WTO has a key role in bringing some of those together, or bringing the handling of them. Thank you.
James Nixey
Thank you, Euan.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, thank you so much, Euan, for this question, and I think it, one more time, confirms my previous position, and I expressed it as well, that WTO cannot or does not exist in a vacuum. It exists, even if it’s not a member of the United Nations system, it has to, I don’t want to say it’s blessed or doomed, it’s just a reality, it must co-operate with all of the relevant organisations. When I say relevant, and you mentioned the Geneva-based or Swiss-based agencies, particularly of course we have the – and I mentioned about the work together with the World Health Organization, and to make sure that the actions are targeted on not disrupting or making sure that the vaccination and the medical supplies are flowing freely and are available to everyone and the facilitating measures are being taken.
At the same time, I would say that we have to – WTO also needs to work with agencies or with conferences, for example, like UNCTAD, not to replace the work, but to work together, and while in Geneva I was also for the first time the President of the Trade and Development Board of UNCTAD, and in that capacity, I have particularly made aware – was made aware of the enormous information from many reports coming from this organisation, and in that capacity, I have worked with LDCs and some of the developing members. So, I think that some elements, from information on the ground level, I think it’s important to be used to increase the efficiency of the operational arm of the WTO, and that includes the negotiations, and negotiations based on facts from the local authorities or regions. We have the situation with migration, even if it’s not connected to the WTO per se, but trade affects the economies and economies might affect the increased or decreased level of migration from a country to a region, looking for a better life. So, from that perspective, I think it’s also important.
We didn’t mention about the financial institutions, and I think that WTO needs to – well, it has the good track record, but we need to fully capitalise the potential of working together with the World Bank, IMF, Financial Stability Board, especially today, to make sure that there is liquidity available to the vulnerable economies. Liquidity that should be made, in my opinion, available as fast as possible and, let’s say, at the lowest cost as possible to these vulnerable economies to be able to quickly readjust their economic development and be able to safeguard and to protect their economies.
Having said that, of course, we have the International Trade Centre that we have to work with, and I think that has been a good experience working with the previous leadership and I’m sure with the current leadership. We have the WIPO, the Intellectual Property Organization, and I was the Vice President of the General Assembly of WIPO, and I think it’s important, especially in the intellectual property discussions, on the trade’s amended agreement, the WTO needs to work together here. So, WTO, in my opinion, has to work multidimensionally with each of the UN agencies, not taking its role, but benefitting from information, but also from the joint work where necessary.
James Nixey
Thank you. I’m conscious that we have – time flies, doesn’t it, but we have really only about 15 minutes left and there’s at least three or four questions still to get through. So, if I could ask you just to slightly shorter answers, although I understand that that last question did demand a very full answer. The next question is hopefully, again, we can unmute you, it’s from Mahesh Katechia has a question about the role of African continental free trading organisation, Mr Katechia, over to you.
Mahesh Katechia
Thank you very much. Can you hear me?
James Nixey
We can.
Mahesh Katechia
Thank you. Mr Ambassador, thank you for your extensively comprehensive, I would say, and obviously very well-informed answers, I’m very impressed with your – the depth and breadth of your knowledge and experience. My question is related to Africa. As you know, the Continental Free Trade Agreement has recently been put forward. It’s not yet started because of COVID-19. One of the contexts of its implementation in Africa is that the COVID-19 situation has disrupted massively supply chains, not only in Africa, but elsewhere, therefore, there is a lot of talk that I hear, from my conversations, fairly wide conversations with the financial sector, both commercial and supranational, and regional supranational, also subregional, even, massive interest in local production, especially of light industrial goods and agricultural products processing, to have more self, let’s say, reliance. This at a time when inter-African trade is already pretty low, it’s around 18, or mid-teens percent compared to 60 in European Union. How do you view this and would you be supportive of that and do you think that is consistent with what WHO is seeking to do with regional trade organisations, like the African Continental Free Trade Agreement?
James Nixey
Thank you. Please, sir. Ah, somebody’s frozen and I don’t know if it’s me or you. Mr Katechia, or Emily, or back in Chatham House, can you hear me? No, I’ve frozen. Okay. See if it comes back. No, I think…
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Yes, hello.
James Nixey
Ah, we’ve got you. I’m not sure who got frozen there, but did you get Mr Katechia’s question? Yeah, Ambassador, did you hear Mr Katechia’s question? Can you hear me?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
No, James, because you were frozen.
James Nixey
Yeah, and, in fact, I’m not sure who was frozen, in fact. Can you hear me?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
And yes, I can hear you, but…
James Nixey
Yes, I think it’s your signal. Your signal is fluxing in and out. Perhaps you can remove your camera, or we can try to. Can you hear – it might be better without your camera. Can you hear me now?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Yes, I can hear you now.
James Nixey
Super. Fantastic. I think it might be better this way. It’s your signal, I understand. Did you get Mr Katechia’s question about the role of the African Continental Free Trade Agreement and the general reaction in Africa to COVID-19, etc? Can you respond to that question? Ah, we are still losing you.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
I am back now, so I can hear you now.
James Nixey
Okay, can you answer Mr Katechia’s question, Ambassador? Did you hear it?
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
No, I heard just about the African Trade Agreement, but maybe you can summarise it, if need be.
James Nixey
Very roughly, the question was about your view on Africa and the role of the African Continental Free Trade Agreement and the general reaction in Africa to COVID-19 and the increased commitment to local production, where possible, in lieu of imports on account of the disrupted international supply chains.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Okay, well, I think it’s a very pertinent question, and, I’ll be honest with you, I had several, if not a lot of conversations with almost all African members, African countries, and particularly I am aware of the fact that the role or the input of Africa and the African Continent, so the global GDP has dropped from 5% to 3%, according to my knowledge, which is already a measure – a message of concern. At the same time, I hope that the free trade agreement would be an encouraging step forward to not only to facilitate trade and inter-African trade, not only African trade with other continents and/or members, but also within Africa. And from that point of view, I think that it should be a balanced approach, to be very honest, or one is the COVID-19 situation, in my opinion, should also be as a wake-up call for domestic governments to make sure that there is a production capacity of medical supplies. If not, not to be – not to rely only on imports, which WTO needs to make sure that they are made without any barriers. But, at the same time, it should be a balanced approach, while also encouraging and helping the local producers, if there is a capacity, to produce a final product, if not, to make sure that, for example, and that’s an idea that I have right now, maybe to make an original approach that some elements of this value chain could be made in different countries. So as a whole per se, there is a final production within a certain region or within entire Africa.
James Nixey
Thank you very much indeed, and for the short answer, and I’m sorry about the technical troubles. I’ll move onto the – a gentleman from the Romanian Embassy in London, and that seems relevant, considering your proximity to Romania, and perhaps we could unmute Sebastian Azarro, please.
Sebastian Azarro
Yes, please, can you hear me?
James Nixey
Yes, we can.
Sebastian Azarro
Hello, good morning, gentlemen. Thank you, James, and thank you, Ambassador, for your great presentation. I’m not an expert on the economic or financial issues, however, that’s why my questions are much more broader. So, my first question to you, regards to your vision about the WTO – how the WTO will balance between globalisation and nationalism, would the – is the admission of the WTO to promote globalisation, even though often that leads to crises and tensions around the world? And the second question is, in your vision, what would be the instruments or tools available to WTO to convince states to play by the international law system and by the WTO rules, and you know probably what countries I have in mind? Thank you so much.
James Nixey
Please, Ambassador.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Well, thank you so much for these very diplomatic questions, I appreciate that, and truly, I think these are even they are more philosophical, more strategic questions, but I think one has to deal with both technical and tactical, but also, strategical questions. From a larger standpoint, I think that, look, globalisation, trade, protectionism, impact, that has been a debate for a very long time, number one. Number two, I think that trade has done lots of good globally, and I know that some statistics are showing that since its inception, the WTO and trade itself has more than one billion of people to get out of poverty. That doesn’t mean that everything is romantic or everything is great. Yes, there are still issues and I would like to reiterate just one thing, I think that it’s important to have a system, and WTO, in my opinion, is that organisation that will or has the capacity and will have to play a more efficient, holistic even, systemic role in making sure that the process of a larger process of making trade free and also in the context of globalisation and/or protectionism, we have to make sure that these actions are made in a certain sequence. And this sequence is following a certain commitment of those countries that are members of WTO and that have accepted certain commitments.
And now, going to your second question, that is how to convince members to follow these rules. Well, let’s take a step back and let’s recognise that the rules have been negotiated by WTO members. At the same time, it’s a member-drive organisation, it’s a consensus-based organisation, so any existing rule has been adopted, with the acceptance of all WTO members and who have negotiated, but also have accepted to follow these rules. The question is how you, or how one can encourage them to follow these rules, and this is what I think that in my capacity as a former Foreign Minister, this is both a political and technical dimension. So, again, getting back to the political will on making sure that any action made by one WTO member or several WTO members, are following the rules and are not having a negative or spill over effect on the other members’ economies, global value chains and so forth.
At the same time, I understand, and I understand the position and the concerns expressed by some members that the current rulebook is not reflecting the realities of trade today, and we are talking about various topics of transparency of subsidies of disputes and so forth. This doesn’t mean that we say that everything is better. No, some things are good, some things should be negotiated. What we do with those that allegedly are not following these rules? Well, in this case, we have the current system of the dispute settlement. At the same time, the DG is limited in its capacity, by the way, the DG is an honest Broker, he is a Manager, but the DG, I think, has to increase the strategic communication dimension and to raise awareness for the entire organisation to follow the rules and to highlight cases when – that need more attention from all the members. And just to – okay.
James Nixey
Yes, only ‘cause I’m anxious to get in one final question, if I may, Ambassador, because I know you’ve got to go in a couple of minutes, two minutes after the hour, and in fact, I’m going to make it a two part question. One on behalf of my colleague, Creon Butler, who is the brains behind this exercise of interviewing discussions with Director-General candidates, and one from myself. So, very briefly, Creon Butler is asking, what do you see as the role for non-state actors? How do you think the WTO can make more use of these actors in future? And, very briefly, from myself, if I may, I’d like to ask you about if you see the – I can’t help but ask you, if you see the post-Soviet space, where you hail from, as being under potential, as far as global trade is concerned? What does it mean if you become Director-General, because I don’t think, if I’m not mistaken, anybody from the post-Soviet space has held such an influential top position in a multilateral organisation before, it’s quite remarkable? Two questions, so non-state actors and the post-Soviet space. Over to you.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Thank you so much, James, and also Creon for your question. With regards to non-state actors, I am a strong believer, by the way, of the fact that the WTO has to increase its work and co-operation and even information and strategic advices from civil society, from business sector, and I would say, from a larger dimension of thinkers, strategic thinkers, and that includes think tanks such as distinguished as Chatham House, and congratulations on your centenary by the way. So, going back, I think the business community is a strong partner and should be engaged much more, not only on those WTO public forums, events, which are occasionally held, and I had several conversations with the ICC, International Chamber of Commerce, and we have discussed many ideas on how to get businesses onboard, in helping WTO and its members to really streamline and to make their policy and negotiations more beneficial for the larger businesses, but also, for the smaller businesses and so forth.
The civil society co-operation, and I think it’s very important, NGOs, particularly to deal with the issues of women empowerment, climate change, youth engagement, youth commitment and many other topics, even on the COVID-19 and medical humanitarian situation. So, I think that’s very important. I mean, that dimension, the WTO and DG could play a very important role in communicating more actively and organising especially today with the digital transformations, WTO has to benefit from this digital transformation to be even closer favourite subject, James.
Look, I believe, and as I mentioned, that trade has benefitted WTO members, has benefitted and although there is no exception, even though we have assumed the commitments of a developed member, at the same time, several countries, from the former Soviet, are already members of WTO, are the so-called recently acceded members, [inaudible – 45:10] members, at the same time other members, other countries from the Soviet space, from the Eastern Europe and larger central Asian region are in the process of acceding and they are negotiating today their commitments to become members of WTO. I would see this as an encouraging sign of the, one, belief that they want to be a part and we want to be a part of a system that, on one hand, will create or will make sure that we are protected by some rules. There is a question about the application of these rules, but there are rules that we will be able to follow and others will be able to follow, when dealing with us in economic and trade terms. So, I see – I think that that’s a good fact that we have ongoing accession negotiations.
It’s very important for the organisation and on the larger public that WTO, and to those critics that are saying that WTO is not relevant or it’s facing the biggest crisis, well, we have countries that want to join the organisation. So, we need to send this political message that standing is increasing in size and of course, it has to adapt because when you transform, you cannot enter the same water of the same river twice. The water is always different, and I think, from the larger perspective, not only the former Soviet Union or Eastern Europe, there are many countries and regions of the world that are re-emerging and they are in transition and I think the WTO has to make sure that their transition, from an economy transition to a developing and/or developed status, hopefully, will be made seamless or as more efficient as possible. And I think that, you know, in my case, coming from a small country, I understand the issues faced by these smaller and vulnerable economies, while also being a European country, a neutral country, going back to your political dimension, I think it is seen, and I was told by many members, that the neutrality and the honest Broker expectation for the next DG is also something that I bring to the table, because they see me and I have dealt with everyone on the table, without being seen as playing or driving someone’s agenda. So, from that point of view, I will drive the system’s agenda, the WTO agenda and I will be able to speak to anyone, everyone, and hopefully, bring them back to negotiating table and to clarify some issues and/or initiate new negotiations.
James Nixey
Ambassador, thank you very much. I could talk to you all day about the vulnerabilities and protection from whom precisely, but we unfortunately, can’t go there, due to lack of time and possibly diplomacy as well. But, in the meantime, I’d just like to thank you very much for your incredibly detailed answers to these questions. you’ve really added to this series, the last in the series, as I say, and I wish you all the very best of luck and that of your country as well. Goodbye and thank you very much indeed.
Ambassador Tudor Ulianovschi
Thank you so much, James, Creon and everybody who was here with us today, it was a pleasure, and I hope to bring my contribution to the world with your help. Thank you so much, all the best.
James Nixey
Bye, bye.
