Dr Neil Quilliam
Good morning. I’m Neil Quilliam. I’m an Associate Fellow with the Middle East North Africa Programme at Chatham House, and I’m delighted to Chair today’s Chatham House events webinar In Conversation with His Royal Highness Prince El Hassan bin Talal. Today’s meeting will be held on the record and will also be recorded. You can comment on Twitter using #CHEvents. Please make sure you submit questions throughout the event, through the Q&A function, not chat or raise hands function. The format today will be that His Royal Highness Prince Hassan will speak for approximately 15 minutes. We will then have a conversation. I will sort of – we’ll have some back and forth and then, after that, we’ll move straight into the Q&A.
About our speaker today: Prince Hassan initiated, founded, and is actively involved with a number of Jordanian and international institutes and committees. In Jordan, His Royal Highness established the Royal Scientific Society in 1970, Arab Thought Forum in 1981, Higher Council for Science and Technology in 1987, and the West Asia and North Africa Institute in 2009. Prince Hassan chaired the committees overseeing the first development plan in Jordan 73 to 75, three subsequent development plans, and His Royal Highness also established the Annual Bilad Al-Sham Conference in 1978, Aal al-Bayt Foundation in 1980, Hashemite Aid and Relief Agency, the Institute of Diplomacy, and Al al-Bayt University in Mafraq, amongst many other things.
During Today’s webinar, His Royal Highness will discuss the political and socioeconomic challenges that Jordan and the region face as a result of COVID-19 pandemic. Questions such as, how can public health concerns be balanced with economic concerns to secure the most vulnerable groups in society will be addressed? What prospects for collaboration are there for states in the region to mitigate the socioeconomic effects of this crisis? And how will the task of reform playout in an increasingly uncertain and volatile international environment? I also hope we can get a little bit of time to address additional issues, perhaps Israel’s annexation of the Jordan Valley, parts of the West Bank, Syria’s conflict and reconstruction, and also the broader issue of refugees. But without much further ado, thank you so much, Your Royal Highness, for joining us today, and we very much welcome and look forward to your remarks.
Prince Hassan, you appear to be on mute. I wonder if you could just unmute your microphone, please. Sorry. Thank you.
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Thank you very much. I want to thank you, Chair, for introducing me and would like to recognise your many achievements in the study of our region. I would like to start by a newsflash, and that is the Yemen oil spill. The UN Environment Chief said Wednesday that “Time is running out to overt an environmental, economic, and humanitarian catastrophe from the deteriorating safer oil tank loaded with 1.1 billion barrels of crude oil, which, if allowed to leak, would be four times the effect of the Exxon Valdez,” and as we are a Red Sea country it would be absolutely horrific to think of the Red Sea paying the price of the current confrontation.
So, with that, I want to say that the challenges that we face in the region include, as I mentioned, ecocide, they include sociocide, in terms of the wars that continue, particularly in Syria and Libya and elsewhere and, of course, they include cogitocide The ability to think together, which I think, in terms of cognitive reasoning, makes it all the more difficult for those of us to want to analyse critically the developments in the Levant, which has been described as the Hinterland countries, in relation to the oil-producing, Gulf oil countries.
In terms of comparisons, I want to say that Halford Mackinder, the Founder of geopolitics, if you will, a fellow national of the attending audience, I assume, referred to the world’s island, in terms of Eastern Europe. He referred to the extension of Eastern Europe down to the Black Sea, which, of course, is the good Neighbourhood Policy of Europe, and I would refer also, to the extension northward towards the Baltic. The countries of the Eastern European, or so-called the Visegrád Four: Czech Republic, Hungry, Poland and Slovakia, amount to 64 million people. You may be asking me, why am I talking about Eastern Europe? I would like to say to you that I believe, in terms of Jordan, Palestine, and Israel that the concept of a Benelux was floated years ago. The first time I heard, it was from Abba Eban, and that is to say into our independence you will recognise my identity, I recognise yours, and we work together for the common good. This elusive common good, which was later referred to quite recently by Paul Krugman in his Arguing with Zombies as partnership and polaris – partisanship, partnership, and polarisation. The fact that a public good is worth providing from societies point of view, is no guarantee that it will be provided.
From our point of view, in this region it seems that – well, Elizabeth Thompson says, in her recent publication, How the West Stole Democracy from the Arabs, which is an interesting title, referring to the Faisal, the first constitution in 1921, which was arguably, the finest constitution in this region. According to the history of that period, this particular constitution was stolen and by the French and burnt. So, that was the end of the constitution. The irony, no, because Elizabeth Thompson asked me for a copy of the Faisal, the first constitution.
I would like to suggest that the Visegrád Four received the forced equivalent of four marshal plans, in terms of the ability to rebuild, and I’m sure some of your questions will focus, as you implied, on the possibilities of the rebuilding of the Syrian economy. But I think it is patently obvious that no single country can, in and of itself, resolve its problems. I mean, the isolation that COVID has visited upon us has meant that we are surrounded by countries that are suffering higher numbers of COVID cases and fatalities. Blessedly, we in Jordan have managed today, state 1,201 cases and, of course, the case of deaths is only four. So, in terms of the feeling that somehow, we are sleepwalking into a further disaster, this feeling doesn’t actually exist in Jordan at the moment because we think that we have what has been described as hard data or hard choices.
Speaking of data, of course, one of the biggest problems in our part of the world is the absence of incontrovertible fact, and I think that as we prepare for being the peoples of the United Nations determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, and all of you will remember that first sentence of the preamble to the UN Charter. It was referred to by Sir Peter Marshal at RUSI the other day, was one of the surviving Diplomats of Great Britain who lived that period, and who says quite rightly that “The wording of an excellent resolution adopted by the General Assembly entitled Global Solidarity to Fight the Coronavirus while recognising the central role of the UN system falls on everyone else to get involved.” As I pointed out, the WHO is not a corona or a disease organisation alone. It is an organisation, which is meant to focus on public health. So, I find it rather sad that we’re always talking about fighting against something as opposed to struggling for something, for human dignity, and for public health. And in that sense, I would like to thank Professor Lindner, who may be known to you, in Berlin, who has been working across the globe, with partners from India to Canada, on the subject of moving from humiliation to dignity.
At the present time, of course, our problem has fragmented with the central decision-making body of universalism, if you will, the Security Council and the result is, of course, that the Security Council, if abstaining or vetoing international decisions, in particular, on the subject of annexation, which I’m sure you would probably want to touch on, is ignored by the partners. So, all of these wonderful General Assembly resolutions and even Security Council resolutions are ignored if there’s no unanimity. But I do want to say that superpowers and possibly the US in particular, at present, are absolutist in their insistence on their own national sovereignty, and with a universal claim to worldwide jurisdiction, which is, of course, the work of John Gray in his amazing dawn – his amazing book the False Dawn.
I want to focus on Peter Beinart for a moment in Jewish Currents on the 7th of July 2020, who says, quoting Walid Khalidi, in his brilliant essay, the Palestinian Historian says, “The cornerstone of the concession,” that is to say any breakthrough that brings justice to the parties in the Palestine, Israel conflict, “is thinking the unthinkable. Is that this concept of Palestinian sovereignty, not half sovereignty or quasi-sovereignty or ersatz sovereignty, but the sovereign, independent Palestinian state possible?” Art in politics, so the art of the possible. A second requirement for accepting the mini-state was that the Palestinian territorial ambition would not be whittled down further. Having settled for a country in 22% of the land between the river and the sea, the Palestinians felt they had already settled enough.
I would be happy to dwell on this subject, but having lived the period from the early 60s to the present, I want to pay particular tribute to the timely wisdom of, at that time 1982, former Jerusalem Deputy Mayor Meron Benvenisti, who warned that it was five minutes to midnight for the two-state solution because 100,000 Jewish settlers would soon inhabit the West Bank and East Jerusalem. A number he considered incompatible with Palestinian statehood. Situation today is by 2020, the number of settlers approached 650,000 and President Trump, in consultation with Prime Minister Netanyahu, proposed that Israel annexe up to 30% of the West Bank and compensate Palestinians with roughly half as much land inside Israel proper, much of which is desert. So, our situation looks quite grim at the present time. But at the same time, I do think that the time for regional thinking has come, whereby we place the dignity and worth of the human person at the centre of our calculations, rather than the influence of powers great and small and of their respective proxies in the ongoing misery that people, specifically stability of the Middle East. By the way, Middle East is a moveable feast.
General McKenzie of CENTCOM includes, in his swathe of influence, responsibility for four central Asian republics, as well as the traditional Middle East, and I think the time has come to recognise, also, in terms of the Iran issue, that either Iran is a Gulf War for trade for trade between East and West, and, of course, here, we have the challenges to the Asian Century in front of us. And this Gulf War either will allow – that famous remark – Craig, from Shanghai to South Hampton through Iran, necessarily, in terms of the terrestrial and maritime waterways and trade routes. Or maybe the vision of the Trump peace plan, known as the Vision, which was released a period of time ago that the dynamics between and within Israel, Palestine, the international community should actively embrace a vision that witnesses a statesmanlike interface between all of these challenges.
So, back to territoriality, identity, and migration. Professor Lothar Brock used these titles in the past, and I think that we can sum up our difficulties and our challenges by remembering those three letters: territoriality, identity, and migration. So, with that, I think I should hand over to you and look forward to hearing your questions.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you very much, Your Royal Highness. I really appreciated that, sort of, journey actually through history up to our current time. And you sort of laid out many of the, sort of – I guess, the route problems that the region faces and indeed, I guess, the world faces. I wonder if we could just maybe explore a little bit. I think you’ve identified the problem. But in terms of say, looking – what prospects for collaboration, amongst the states in the region, to mitigate the effects of the crisis, what might that look like? How could a mechanism be put together, given the complexities that you’ve just alluded to?
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
I was speaking to the Foreign Minister of Lebanon just a few days ago who, in and of himself, of course, the son of the famous Philip Hitti, the author of The Arabs, was extremely interested in the concept of encounter and dialogue in the Mashriq, in the Levant. We Europeans were described by our European counterparts as geopolitically Mediterranean. We, in Jordan, don’t have any feet in the Mediterranean Sea. But at the same time, we are regarded geopolitically as a literal country.
So, when I mentioned Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, and Slovakia, I didn’t mention that their population is 64 million and their average per capita is 26,000. The Levant Five, that is to say, the Arab Five are: Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, West Bank, and Gaza. Now, if we were to add to that the known Arab members of the Levant, which include Turkey and Iran, and if and when Israel finally decides whether it wants to become a part of the region, obviously, a trade would have to include – in fact, some Israeli Politicians are using trade as an alternative to improving security conditions in the region. But surely, security conditions must start with the wellbeing of the individual.
Our population of the Arab Levant at the moment is 72 million per capita income ranging from about 3,00o in the West Bank and Gaza to 7,700 in Lebanon to 36,00 in Israel. So, one sees the disparities, and I wonder whether the concept of ESCWA, the Economic and Social Commission in West Asia, would ever be taken as a concept for building an ECOSOC, an Economic and Social Region – Social Council for the region. The reason why we trade with Japan and why Japan has invested in our education programmes, for example, is that we are neighbouring countries to the Gulf, and the Gulf is so responsible for so much of Japan’s oil imports, and I think that this is the moment for a strategic review.
If we’re reviewing the Washington Consensus and we’re reviewing Dumbarton Oaks and Bretton Woods, why is it that we’re not creating a new partnership, in terms of perceptions from the region and for two other regions? I know we have Committee for the Elders, for example, which is an international committee of that name, but would it be possible to even consider such counterpart arrangements with a committee for the thinkers maybe from our part of the world, because if everybody is tarred with some kind of accusation of partisanship and excluded, I don’t think that cogitable sphere is going to develop. We need to build institutions.
At the moment what I see is greater fragmentation, the Kurdish separatist movement, the Druze separatist movement, different Christian separatist movement, not to mention the current battle over the [inaudible 22:35], which we can come back to. All of these issues are extremely of concern to those of us who worked so long and with such good faith in interfaith terms and in ethical terms on the involvement of the human being. We are not important. It is those citizens in their millions, and especially the young who are over 30% of the population, 35% who deserve to be acknowledged.
Enabling and empowering is one thing, but intrusting is another. And as I said, referring to Elizabeth Thompson, when we did initiate in the early 20s this concept of renaissance and reform, we ended up facing a succession of military rulers and authoritarian ideas, which have not taken us – other than to greater sorrow and greater grief.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you. Thank you very much. If I could just take us back to the question of annexation, obviously, that hasn’t taken place yet, and the great number of Commentators and Analysts don’t believe it will go forward, but we live in an age of unpredictability. Should Israel make that move on annexation? What are the sort of the immediate and long-term implications for Jordan and the region?
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
The Vision, as it’s sometimes referred to, i.e. the United States’ plan, the Trump plan, undermines the possibility of the two-state solution between the Palestinians and Israel, and it allows the annexation of approximately 130 settlements in the West Bank and the Jordan Valley. From a Jordanian perspective, we are off to open the eastern window on the occupied territories, as we refer to them, and onto Israel. This says that the impression given that Israel can trade over our heads directly with the Gulf States is a reality, of course. That is a possibility. You can trade with countries with whom you have no formal recognition. But on the other hand, the Vision considers the United Nations as irrelevant, due to alleged inconsistency, that is to say, page five, ‘an incapability to resolve the conflict despite almost 700 UN General Assembly resolutions and over 100 UN security resolutions’.
The Vision contains a conceptual map, if you recall, and that is the product of land swaps and transportation solutions. It include tunnels, fences, overpasses, rail links, overcrossings, and the like. I believe that this mapping is done by – has been done by an Israeli-American team on the ground. Our Israel-Jordan peace agreement and the definition of the border was supervised by international cartographers at the Helsinki Federation of International Cartographers, and we were given high marks, in terms of the professionalism of what we have done.
But to talk about Palestinian public perceptions, the latest poll conducted by the Palestine Center for Policy and Survey Research, PSR, on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, that is to say February or March 2020, after the release of the Trump plan shows an overwhelming rejection of the American sponsored plan. A high level of pessimism in reviving peace negotiations and a sharp decline of faith in Palestinian leadership, and people have always commented on the off-stated remarks of Deputy Foreign Minister Netanyahu, as he was in 1985 who said, “I am not interested in a Palestine state because I have a Palestine state and it’s called Jordan.” And I recall speaking in London at the time of what I used to call Ariel Sharon’s Baker Street office, with young people with placards into the streets saying, “Jordan is Palestine.” And I would answer, “Jordan is, but not in Palestine.”
So, I do think that the time has come to think of the regional commons. We have multiplied fourfold, in terms of population, from the 1990s, when we were about three million, now to over 11 million people, and it’s not only the Palestine’s, it’s a large, large responsibility towards Syrians, Iraqis, and numerous other nationalities. So, I would like to suggest that this business of shunting population you cannot live with to another country, as with Lebanon, as with Syria in or out, is a process that has to be based in hard fact. Why are they going? Where are they going to? And what are their legitimate aspirations?
So, I would suggest that in terms of Jordan, in particular, the stabilisation vision should include an understanding that a stable Jordan is interactive with the developments on the ground. The economic opportunities presented, and the Vision are strained, not only by the absence of a permanent political agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, but most important by the lack of substantial improvement in Jordan-Israel relations. So, I would assume that these negotiations or these vision-building exercises should be resumed under the table, over the table, behind the door, wherever it maybe.
I once said to Kofi Annan, he came in and said, “Well, how can I resolve the Syrian question?” This was just after Doha and I said, “You are the Secretary-General, and you are asking me. I mean, why don’t you meet with all the parties and discuss with them and take it from there?” But regional conversations are today dominated by the intruding factors. The Iranian factor, for example, the Russian involvement, the Turkish debacle, in terms of Idlib, and recent resolutions that have finally allowed the humanitarian aid into the Idlib region. All of this is rather worrying. So, the revival, for example, of the regional economic development working group might be one of the ways in which the Madrid peace process envisaged a discussion bringing everyone to the table.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you very much. I’m conscious that I’m taking up time and there are some questions coming in, but I’d just like to just ask one more question, if I may, and that is about – I mean, you’ve alluded to, sort of, you know, Jordan having an intra-dependency and an interdependency and, you know, it is very much part of the global economy, and I wonder how the COVID crisis will impact the reform process that seem to be firmly underway under the current Prime Minister? Where will the trajectory of those reforms likely head now?
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
I believe that the Prime Minister is in for trying to set firmly in place a vision of the long-haul. That is to say, over the next few months and into the coming budgetary year. Jordan, as you know, hosts over 750,000 of nearly 60 different nationalities. Over 83% live in urban areas, 16.6% live in refugee camps, 655,216 from Syria, 14,795 from Yemen, and 60,152 from Iraq. We have over two million, 2.2, 0r 736,000 Palestinian refugees registered with UNRWA. So, the question is going to be – I mean, as it should have been posed before the cutting off assistance to UNRWA. It’s all very well to say you don’t approve of this organisation, as the American administration has done, but what are the alternatives? The alternatives is a non-discriminatory and national information system, which focuses on investment in human productivity at different levels.
I would say that Jordan is fortunate because we have, in Jordan, succeeded with the World Food Programme, in terms of providing ATM cards, for example, to 98% of Syrian refugees. And there was direct impact from the COVID-19 pandemic and the lockdown situation, is that only 6% of the workers said that they had been working as before, during the lockdown period, which is not a large percent. 26% of the workers have been permanently dismissed from jobs and the remaining 70% either work from home, 2% have been temporarily laid off. So, the question of managing is a difficulty that, by definition, we continue with, but it’s – I think that the focus on the middleclass, maintaining the middleclass, maintaining women’s livelihood, coping with the negative impact of the current situation, lives lost every day, overburdened healthcare systems. Although, I want to tell you that the middleclass from the Gulf countries are now coming to look for hospital care, because although they have excellent hospitals in Cleveland, for example, partners with their hospital care, it tends to – high income – the high-income bracket, and I don’t like the term ‘medical tourism’, but I think it’s important to see that they have the trust in Jordan and Jordanian institutions to come here.
Of course, 8.3 million people will be pushed into precarious conditions, bringing the total number of poor people in the Arab region to 101.4 million, equivalent to one in four Arabs and shrink the middle-income class. As far as job losses, ESCWA, the Economic and Social Commission, talks about up to 1.7 million jobs that could be lost in 2020 alone, while the Arab GDP might decrease by up to 42 billion. So, I would think that the discussion of a regional Marshal Plan is once again timely, provided people are prepared, as with COVID, to think with the speed of light across borders rather than to focus on purely national priorities. Water, of course, is the greatest demand that we have, and this is one of the areas where water demand for handwashing in households will increase by nine to 12 litres per person per day. Well, we’re living today one of the hottest days in summer.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you. Thank you, and that’s actually a very good point to sort of start the Q&A. We have a question from Alistair Burt, former Middle East Minister, whom I’m sure you know very well, and his question says, “Why does not the sheer severity of the crises collectively facing the region drive the collaborative action needed on environment or health to happen rather than to be endlessly talked about? How bad do things have to be to ensure states get around the table?”
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
That is a very, very good question and underline the point in itself, things have to be, obviously, very, very bad indeed. I started by talking about ecocide and the Yemeni tanker, but of course, ecocide has been the case ever since the Iraq War, where armies were crossing our bigger grazing lands and changing the whole region into a dust ball. I spoke of sociocide, and I want to stress again, that in terms of the West Bank and Gaza the total number of Palestinians, in the occupied territories, have contracted – who have contracted COVID-19 more than doubled over the course of the reporting period, which was the 1st to the 14th of July, from 2,765 on the 30th of June to 7,734 as of the 14th of July, 36 more people have died. And the question I think is raised by all of us who recognise that you have to attend to a human dignity agenda. It’s not only a question of health and education or food and water or a shelter, it is a question of job opportunities, and this is the tragedy that we face today, in terms of region and lessened until ESCWA, I go back to the Commission for West Asia or the Arab League, which would, of course, would be a miracle. Unthinkable at the moment because the Arab League is the sum total of the negativity of its members.
I mean, you can see how its members are fighting in Yemen, fighting in Syria, fighting in Yemen, and I think the time has come in Libya – I mean, I’m sorry, but I think the time has come to recognise that unilateral actions are a mistake, not only as Dennis Ross and David Makovsky would tell you in the occupied territories, but a mistake generally. Robert Satloff of the Washington Institute has cautioned against annexation and writes that “The cost-benefit analysis argues for preserving the status quo.” Now, we are talking in terms of risk and cost-benefit analysis, let’s argue in terms of the millions of population neighbouring the Gulf states, especially in the Hinterland, that are directly contributing to the potential instability. So, does it have to come to a point of anti-terror, anti-extremism to justify that armies and security services work against, as I said, something rather than justifying that our institutions begin to take place that responsibility?
I’m glad that two days ago a Centre for Natural Resources has been set up at the Kashmir University. I’m glad to be associated with it and with the Center for Postdoctoral Studies connected with Al-Quds University in Jerusalem. But we need, obviously, partners. It’s not just a question of investment conferences as Alistair Burt will remember in London, it’s a question of investment in human dignity. I think it was most encouraging element of all of this to see the call for Blue Peace, this regional organisation, the global high-level panel for water. Again, regional organisation with all the participants, who normally would not talk to each other, coming together to present a whole for a regional water monitor. But once again, who is going to implement? Look at what’s happening with the Renaissance Dam today between Ethiopia and the Nile Valley countries.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you very much. We have a question from Rana Nassar, she says, “Your Royal Highness, can you comment on the issue of a Jordan-Palestine Federation that is continuously speculated about?”
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Well, because it is continuously speculated about, I think, my comment would be more harmful than useful, in the sense that I am really not in an official position to, and even when I was in an official position, I think it’s very difficult to put words into people’s mouths, because they’re immediately suspicious, particularly the people under occupation don’t want to feel that they are jumping from one situation of occupation to another. But I want to make a distinction between the Israeli annexation, which, after all, is annexation of land. I mean, the assumption is that if you annex the land, then you, obviously, have to take the land and the people, and in terms of the annexation, as we’re always accused by Israel of the land in 1948, it was an Arab country. An Arab army, albeit partly commanded by British Officers at that time, that entered the West Bank and secured a position in East Jerusalem. It was then followed by a Referendum in 1951, and the term ‘Wadiah’, on trust, Wadiah, was maintained over that period, so that it was very clear, even after the early 60s and the creation of the PLO, an event I attended actually in Jerusalem alongside King Hussein. This Wadiah was never regarded as anything but sacrosanct.
In 1988, when we broke economic or administrative and legal links and ties, although I wonder about international legality, because after all, you had a lot of mandate, a British mandate, but you also had 17 years of working together between the East and the West Bank and national activity of Jordan, it might have been the longest-lasting model of this kind. So, I think that it would be worth pointing out that the most compelling case against annexation was made by the 220 Commanders for Israel’s security. And I think it is important to bear in mind that this opposition by Israeli Security Officers is in opposition to what is incredible because it would be incredible to annex their particular region, which is already a de facto annex that has faced it, and then apply the national law, reduce the significance of the Arabic language, which has come about. And I think that the current situation of rejecting annexation, is not because it will be bad for Israel, it certainly would, but because it is illegal, and it would involve a further violation of Palestinian rights.
So, I think the moment comes where the Palestinians and the Jordanians have to discuss for themselves, what exactly is the significance of what used to be the Transjordan Mandate or the Palestine Mandate. Isn’t it a fact, and I address Rana, that we are actually working towards a rebut, and an area of stability, which can face in the context of a Benelux? Doesn’t matter if you’re stronger or weaker or bigger or smaller, but intra-independent in recognising the other, and, of course, that means something quite dramatically different for Zionism, which it’s not a Jewish majority, but as homogenous Jewish demography as possible. And I would like to add, if I may, none of us expect Israel to confer citizenship on West Bank-Palestinian.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you very much. You’ve spoken and at length about human dignity. I want to sort of talk – though you have a question here about regional security, more sort of hard-based approach to security from Alice Gower from – as your strategy. She says, “Could you comment on Israel’s launching of the Ofek-16 satellite earlier this month? What does this mean for regional security relationships, particularly the role of the US in the region?”
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Well, it’s rather interesting to see a satellite being launched from Israel and then a Mars Programme being adopted by the UAE, and the United Arab Emirates, and, of course, I for one, as a Luddite, don’t honestly understand what is the significance in quantum, in terms of the quantum leap, overdressing the world from a satellite as opposed to actively doing something about improving people’s law between now and 2030. I mean, all of the Black Lives Matter has now been projected into a situation where it seems that population demography, that is to say, will begin to be reduced in northern countries. Therefore, obviously, the African population of this world will increase and, of course, the Chinese are doing amazing things with their Buddhist schools in Africa and so forth. So, I wonder, is – are population issues being transcended by this tremendous achievement in science and what exactly is humanitarian science?
Again, I would say that in terms of the amazing strength of Israel it has the F-35 Stealth Bomber, it has every single aspect of strength, and including that on-again-off-again mention of its maverick status as a nuclear power along, of course, with Pakistan and India. There are powers that have not signed CTBT. So, the logic of effective action, and political action taken on behalf of a group, and in this particular instance, the point of view of this group and of its members, presumably the military establishment, the scientific establishment is of great importance, and I refer there to Mancur Olson, who took his other point of view in his focus on effective action. But I just wonder whether these effective actions are part of the human security.
I’m a member of the Nuclear Threat Initiative and have been for the last 15 years, along with Sam Nunn and other meeting luminaries. I have been a member, in the sense of say something for humanity in the region, and I would say the same again in responding to Ofek, why do they not disseminate what they have? They have a tremendous ability to terrain map everything in this region, with the possibilities of proper investment in human dignity, and I have not seen that being shared in any scientific conference.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you. We have a question from Caroline Usher, and I think given your earlier remarks about the demographics of the region, it’s something the Chatham House focuses on more and more, sort of trying to work with, sort of, next-generation leaders. Question is, “Given your long involvement in education, do you have any advice for future leaders in the region?”
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
When you asked me about the role of Prime Minister Razzaz, I think, is one of our more gifted Politicians in the past several years, and his focus on education at the present time is, yes, in a sense to continue to recognise the importance of achievement and in that sense, elitism. But that only represents 5% of the population of students. But the improvement of the quality resonically, if you will, of middle school and then again, of course, linking education in universities to linking academia to real-life business opportunities, all of this is part of what we’re trying to focus, at the present time. But I do think that accreditation internationally, ratifying regional programme, that’s why I was so insistent and still am on the Erasmus type approach developing for this region. The Dusseldorf University for Middle East students, which includes students from all the region, SESAME programme, which surprisingly, still includes all the nationalities of the region. I don’t need to name them one by one, but believe me, and it is comprehensive. So, there is a feeling that au-delà as the French would say, there has to be some form of educational perception.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you. We’ve got a question from Amita Banerjee, she says, “How do you think the growing competition and confrontation between the Shia and Sunni worlds led by Iran and Saudi Arabia, respectively, affect the chance of lasting peace in the Middle East?”
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
I’d like to remind him that the interesting, fascinating studies of Imam Shaltut, Sheikh Shaltut, the Imam of the Azhar, and Imam Borujerdi resulted in the recognition of the Ja’fari as the fixed madhhab of Islam. If we can only revise our concept of what it is to be Shia and what it is to be Suni, without the nationalist association. The Iranian Shi’ism, Arab Sunn’ism, with particular reference to Saudi Arabia, this is not a conflict between two states. It is a conflict over the possibility of establishing dialogue in Mecca between the postcodes of Islam, and between the Shia’s group the Ja’fari, and Zaidiy and of course the Ibadi School. We held 17 sessions of this. You mentioned the Aal al-Bayt University in Mafraq, and I think that today we are taire, as the French would say, hegemonen. We have been reduced in size to almost insignificance because if we say a nationalist, we immediately raise accusations. If we say Islamist, obviously, this is a no-go area or a terrorist reference. So, isn’t it time that we began to discuss issues?
I was referring earlier to the Hagia Sophia question. I remember at the time, Francisco Franco and Jalal Byal that someone suggested, and this is a recorded fact, that if a gesture was made in Spain, for example, where parts of the Mezquita in Còrdoba were returned to Muslim worship, wouldn’t it be possible, then, to consider Hagia Sophia, in parts, returning to Christian worship or even to Jewish worship, in terms of other locations in the region, which would merit it? But to continue with this nationalist confrontation and, of course, I have Jerusalem very much in mind, without recognising the importance of ecumenical solutions is the tragedy, and incidentally, I’d like to say that Pakistan, I think, has done very well. That there Ulema, in recognising the importance of building a Hindu place of worship in Islamabad.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you. We have a question from Juliet Dryden, in a way, you’ve touched on this, but it’s just asking for a little bit more. It says, “Please, could you talk a little bit more about human dignity and how you see it as a key factor of security in the region.”
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Well, if we go back to the Helsinki process and to what we learnt from the Finns, their educational process starts a couple of years after ours and so, children are given a chance and five and six – at five and six, to have a complete command of their language and their ability, hopefully, to read and write. I mean, when I was a child six, seven years old, obviously, Islamic and Arabic education was imperative, and I felt quite confident, when I met the famous Professor Albert Hourani at Oxford many years ago, he said, “People like you benefit.” And he was, I think, provoking me in a creative manner and I have the greatest respect for him. “From having met people like us, who have the access to the wealth of Western knowledge about your part of the world.” And I think that today what we need is to build that self-confidence because our young generally, and I have grandchildren, I think are adrift. They do not know where they are, unless they know that their historical and literary credentials are in place.
I just recently watched that four-part series Unorthodox, and it is what it is. But it shows the insularity of the different ideological groupings in the world today, and I think that in terms of human dignity if we are going to talk ever about the regional Peace Corps formulated by all the different nationalities in the region, to travel not under the United Nations bidding, but to travel at our own regional bidding, maybe just maybe we might be able to answer that question, when we’re asked by people from East Timor to Sierra Leone where the World Conference for Religions and Peace went, when I was moderator for six years, I would say, “We’re coming here to promote the noble art of conversation.” And they’d say, “Conversation, what’s that?” So, I think that the educational process has to be one not of conversion, but of conversation and critical thinking.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Fantastic, thank you very much. If we could just squeeze in one more question.
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Please.
Dr Neil Quilliam
From Steven, excuse my pronunciation, Brennan Maher. He says, “As oil is so much under pressure and in light of the Paris Agreement, do you see a future for renewable energy in your region?”
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Well, I don’t see a future without an agreement on renewable energy for our region. That would be my short answer. I think that we’ve spoken for such a long time about infrastructure and for very practical reasons, we have to talk about renewable energy as we did, if you’d remember, with desert tech all those years ago. We could have had renewable energy across the whole of North Africa, but with focus on the marginalised and the vulnerable, rather than with the focus on only the urban conurbations.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you very much, Your Royal Highness. Thank you so much for your time today. There is still some more questions coming in, but I think we’ve now sort of run out of our time. So, we thank you very much for your time, for your answers, and I’m sure, were the audience were here in front of you, they would be clapping you right now and very appreciative of all that you’ve said.
HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal
Thank you so much, and I hope we can continue in correspondence in the months ahead. I think that this encounter is extremely valuable.
Dr Neil Quilliam
Thank you very much indeed and from Chatham House, thank you very much to all our members for joining and we look forward to speaking to you on our next webinar.
