Webinar: The Future of Conservatism

Anne McElvoy

Hello, everyone. I’m very pleased to join you today. I hope that we’re all technologically connected while being still socially distanced, and I’m very thrilled to be part of this ‘cause I think it’s one of the most interesting debates in contemporary politics and history, and that is the future of conservatism. And it’s also, I think, a particular advantage to us to have two participants who both know their subject inside out, who’ve both been active in different ways in the debate, and bring great, different strengths to it. And, particularly, as I am a bit of a – wow, bit of a fan for the old Anglo German connection, I’m very pleased to say that we have a Brit and a German in the room. Ladies and gentlemen, what could possibly go wrong?

Let’s get straight into it because we’ve got a reasonably short webinar today for you, and I can see a large number of participants, so we must try and bring you in, too. On my screen at the moment, depending where you’re looking and how you’re all set up, is Dr Andreas Rödder from the Johannes Gutenberg University in Mainz. Hello there, Andreas, and I’m not hearing Andreas, which is going to be a bit of a drawback. So, I’m going to introduce our participants and then sort out all my technical nonsense, but maybe you’re hearing better than I am. He’s also author of a extremely interesting, kind of, short history, specialises in often packing a number of centuries into very readably and mercifully short books, and his latest, I think latest, is Conservatism 21.0.

Also on the call and looking very dressed down and relaxed in lockdown is Nick Timothy. Hello there, Nick. You will know, of course, Nick Timothy, former Chief – Joint Chief of Staff for Theresa May in Downing Street. He lived through some fascinating and rather torrid times in the process, so that, I’m sure, has informed his thinking just as much as he informed the argument about the future of conservatism under Theresa May, and still does so beyond it. He is Columnist at The Daily Telegraph, a must read there, and has also, strangely enough, got a book around this one called Remaking One Nation Conservatism for the Future. I’m going to ask each of you to give us a very quick, perhaps a five or so minute, guide into where you think conservatism is today. I’ll start with Nick. As I say, I’ve got a couple of technological gremlins, so I will just, sort of, disappear into the background and hope that can be sorted out, but we might as well start with Nick’s take.

Nick Timothy

Okay, well, thanks, Anne, and thanks also to Hans Kundnani, whose idea this event originally was. Yeah, you mentioned my book is called Remaking One Nation, and what I’m trying to do with that is to trace the problems we have today back to the ideas behind the policies that got us here. And, in particular, what I’m trying to do is explore some of the flaws in philosophical liberalism, and the ways liberalism has mutated into ultra-extreme forms across the left, right, and centre of politics. And I argue that Conservatives need to liberate themselves from liberalism, rediscover their own philosophy, apply that philosophy to the problems we have today, and, if they do that, they can become a much more unifying force and, in the language of Conservative tradition, make us one nation once again.

I think we have to start looking at liberalism, you know, with – which is the ideology that has made our modern western world with a more sceptical eye. Many of the aspects of life we’ve been told are unavoidable and universal, inevitable and irreversible, are actually no such thing at all; they’re the product of ideology. Now, that ideology isn’t as extreme as some of those that it’s easy to reject, like communism or fascism, but it’s an ideology all the same. And, like all ideologies, as the contradictions and failures mount, ultraliberalism, which I’ll go on to explain a little bit, is growing illiberal and intolerant towards dissenters and retreating somewhat into denial and delusion.

So, what I tried to do with the book is explain how things have got this far and what Conservatives can do about it, and I argued that Conservatives need to counter ultraliberalism and develop a new Conservative agenda that respects personal freedom, but also demands solidarity, that reforms capitalism, but also rebuilds community, and rejects selfishness while also embracing our obligations towards others. But the book is also a warning against, sort of, the populist forces. It’s a warning to Conservatives that they need to be careful to defend the essential liberalism that stands for pluralism and a democratic way of life.

So, with essential liberalism, you have what makes liberal democracy function. It requires not only elections to determine who governs us, but checks and balances to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. It demands good behaviour or norms, including a willingness to accept the outcome of election results, and it requires support, qualified support, for free markets. And essential liberalism doesn’t pretend to provide a general theory of rights or justice, or an ideological framework that leads towards the harmonisation of values and interests, or a single philosophical truth. It understands that human values and interests are often in conflict, and it therefore respects political diversity.

Now, with ultraliberalism, there isn’t a single political agenda. There’s an elite liberalism, which consists of beliefs that are shared by most members of the governing classes, but not really the wider public. You know, this stands for policies like mass immigration, multiculturalism, a lightly regulated labour market, limited support for the family, and the marketisation of many public services. But I think we also have what I call an ultraliberal rachet, which is beliefs that aren’t shared across the party divide, but which still keep propelling liberalism forward. So, on the right, you have market reformers, who are mainly thinking about the economy, and, on the left, you have left liberals pursuing an agenda of cultural liberalism and increasingly militant identity politics. One side might attempt to reverse some changes made by the other, but, in the end, both of them remain, and market reformers and left liberals end up reinforcing one another, and they both leave us with economic dislocation, social atomisation, and a state that is left trying to pick up the pieces. And the trouble with…

Anne McElvoy

I’m just going to interject briefly just because I’m aware that our time will…

Nick Timothy

Okay.

Anne McElvoy

…run away. So, if you could just bring yourself to a rousing conclusion for now because…

Nick Timothy

Sure.

Anne McElvoy

…you’ve – you’re on the screen, of course, all the time, so you can come…

Nick Timothy

Yeah, sure.

Anne McElvoy

…back on…

Nick Timothy

So…

Anne McElvoy

…and anymore, and just – if we had a little longer, you know, we could go broader, but if you just maybe want to bring it to a point for now.

Nick Timothy

Sure, but…

Anne McElvoy

Then I might go to Andreas and allow him about the same amount of time, and that would give us, I think, a good, you know, 20 minutes just to hear from the audience, and we might just move it along. I’m sorry, it’s all going a bit 5 live but I think the pace…

Nick Timothy

Don’t worry, Anne, don’t worry, that’s fine.

Anne McElvoy

…would be good for our audience.

Nick Timothy

Don’t worry, at all. Well, I mean, so I won’t go into the, sort of, philosophy behind those things, but, I mean, liberalism is based on a flawed conception of humanity and that manifests itself in different ways and influences the ways in which it’s mutated to, and what I want to see is Conservatives launching – leading a break from ultraliberalism in all of those forms. There are some signs in Britain that the Conservatives, under Boris Johnson, are shifting away from those ultraliberal beliefs. I obviously hope that happens because there’s more to life than the market, there’s more to conservatism than the individual, and there’s more to the future than the destruction of cultures and nations.

Anne McElvoy

Right, great challenge on which to leave us. Thank you very much, Nick, for bringing that to a close so smartly. Andreas, I know that, as well as your expertise, your book is actually called A Short History of the Present, I should have said, it has to be history of something, and…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Thank you.

Anne McElvoy

…Conservatism 21.0, oh my…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

…goodness, you are just down there with the techniophites. You’re talking to us from Germany. Do you recognise the strains, the tensions, possibilities, around what Nick Timothy has just said? I know you’re also an expert on British conservatism, and particularly of the 19th Century and thereabouts, or does this debate look, kind of, different if the Conserv – in a German context of conservatism, as you would experience it every day?

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yes, it does look a bit different, even if there are many combinations and connections to what Nick said. But, first of all, you know, first time I made closer acquaintance of conservatism was when I wrote my second academic book, my post doctorate thesis, about the English Conservatives between 1846 and 1867. And what I met there was a parliamentary and reform-oriented conservatism, which I would call – even if I know Nick’s problems with the term ‘liberal’, which I would call a liberal conservatism contrary to the illiberal, authoritarian tradition of German Conservatives, which coined the German Conservatives in the German Empire, and even more the so-called Conservative Revolution in the early 1930s, which was completely illiberal and completely unconservative.

And it was not before, say, the 1970s that this kind of a reform-oriented liberal conservatism was really explicitly conceptualised in Germany, so this is the one thing which found a different tradition, on the one hand. The other is what Nick is saying about one nation, all these ideas of communitarian, conservatism, whatever, in Germany have another background. So, the whole background of the history of communitarian approaches is somewhat more difficult. If you have a look to what is called – has been called [mother tongue – 12:06] in Germany, all these communitarian approaches in German history have been pretty close to totalitarian seduction and even to the – to national socialism.

So, all these debates are a bit, say, toxic in Germany, so that we had to set up a kind of modern conservatism, not before the 1970s, then trying to connect it to the British debate. However, in a certain way, it’s different, so – and in a certain way still, the term ‘conservatism’ in Germany is an – is somewhat poisoned and the pollsters say you won’t get anywhere with the concept conservatism in Germany. But, having said that, at the same time, there is a certain fascination with the term ‘conservatism’. If you just look at the Green Prime Minister of the state of Baden-Württemberg, Winfried Kretschmann wrote a book about new conservatism as a Green two years ago, which would be agreeable for many Kretschmann Democrats. So, in a certain way, conservatism in Germany is a, kind of – it’s a place of longing and an element of Gramscian, cultural – wars about cultural hegemony.

Anne McElvoy

And I’ve got really just a short question for you, and then we’ll go onto Nick, which actually reflects one of the first questions to come in. To what extent would Angela Merkel consider herself or describe herself as a Conservative? You’ve been a – shall we say an…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

…outspoken critical friend…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

…of Angela Merkel Chancellorship, and one of – actually one of the most interesting people, I think, in the public…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

…debate about it and what she stands for and what you think she’s got right and wrong, but do you see her – given the matrix you’ve just laid out, where do you see her?

Dr Andreas Rödder

So, the answer is yes and no. Yes and no. Many people say she is conservatism – Conservative, in terms of being pragmatic, being – founding her political sword on experience, and in terms of adaptation, for the change of circumstances. So, many people say insofar, she is Conservative. She herself would not label herself as Conservative, and she doesn’t, and I would say, indeed, the 15 years of her Chancellorship are characterised by the adaptation to a kind of mainstream which, in the end, is mainly red-green, and increasingly characterised by identity politics in Germany. So, many Conservatives in Germany feel alienated by Merkel’s CDU, don’t – they don’t feel represented any longer, and, at the same time, you’d say conservatism is about pragmatism and not ideology and dogmatism. And if you have a look to Angela Merkel, the key points of her Chancellorship are characterised by a certain poin – certain amount of dogmatism, if you look to energy politics, and particularly if you look to her migration politics in 2015. This was not pragmatic, Conservative adaptation or to delay changes ‘til they are harmless, as the 3rd Marquess of Salisbury, one of my Conservative heroes, said it.

Anne McElvoy

I wondered how long it was until Salisbury appeared. I think I won my bet with myself. We got it in under 20 minutes, people. Let’s take – back to Nick on that, and, actually, it’s a very nice segue because our first question from Patrick Sherry, and I should say, given that this is going to move along quite fast, please do send over your questions. I think if you wait ‘til later in the webinar, you’ll probably find it’s over, so do send us your questions and I’ll try to package them together as ably as I can. Patrick says, “What policies of the UK Government reflect ultraliberalism more than Nick’s view of true Conservative principles?” I’m very pleased you’ve got us going with that because I wondered that, Nick. I thought, well, from what you laid out, I could maybe pick and choose, and I would find some things where you and I would agree, and perhaps other people in the conversation would agree, of what ultraliberalism was, and you focused a lot on the market. But there are also challenges from identity politics that Andreas has referenced, I’m sure that’s going to come up, too. So, what are these true Conservative principles, which we’re so sure about that they’re not just a you say potato and I say potato?

Nick Timothy

Well, I think, and what I said in the book is that we’ve got to imagine liberalism as a series of concentric circles. So, at the core, you have essential liberalism, which I think pretty much all, but the real political extremes accept. It’s the things that – and, you know, it’s what makes parliamentary democracy and the market economy function. Then, beyond that, you’ve got a, kind of, elite liberalism, where you have, you know…

Anne McElvoy

Politics.

Nick Timothy

…Nick Clegg, George Osborne, Tony Blair, you know, they could have probably been in any one of the others’ parties, and they all stand for a particular agenda that, actually, in many respects, majorities of the public have tended to oppose. But then, beyond that, there’s a, kind of, ultraliberal rachet where, on the right, you’ve got market fundamentalists, on the left, you’ve got practitioners of cultural liberalism and identity politics.

And I would say that the Tory Party from, you know, the 70s/80s, onwards has been, I think, quite seduced by economic liberal thinking, and one of the things that I would really like to see change in the Conservative Party is to have a slightly more open mind about the role of the state in the economy, especially when it comes to things like regional rebalancing, correcting market failures, and so on. And, actually, probab – I think some of what I say about conservatism probably ends up sounding a little like German Christian democracy. Well, it’s much more of the social partnership between the state, between business, and community at large, and there’s much more of a rigorous industrial strategy and an emphasis on regional government and regional growth.

Anne McElvoy

I’m going to be really annoying and say is it more left-wing conservatism than right-wing conservatism, and you’re going to say, “Oh, no, it’s not left-right,” but the perception of politics is stubbornly that thing – some things are more to the left than others, so nail your colours to the mast.

Nick Timothy

Well, I think the – I mean, I tend to find that people on the left of the Tory Party think I’m a crazy Brexiteer, and the people on the right of the Tory Party think I’m a dangerous socialist, and so I think I’, kind of, proving the point that sometimes these labels don’t work so well. But, I mean, if we wanted to be very simplistic, I mean, I think the agenda I set out is – sort of, means that I think the Conservative Party can be quite robust when it comes to certain issues of culture and identity, and taking clear positions on what feels increasingly like a culture war. But it needs to move probably leftward on economic issues, more interventionalist when markets fail, and more interventionalist to try to make sure that there is the infrastructure, the investment, the kind of social fabric that we need in the regions for growth.

Anne McElvoy

You’ve said a lot about what we need, and, either very delicately or just somehow, you’ve gone round what you think of Boris Johnson’s Government, and there’s a number of people who’ve noticed this elegant sidestep. What do you think of Boris Johnson’s Government?

Nick Timothy

Well, I think his agenda, when it came to the General Election, was one that I support very much. He saw that the electoral coalition that was possible for him to build was defined already by the fact that he’d supported Brexit and wanted to get Brexit done, as the slogan went, which meant that he had to go into the provinces, into the Midlands and the North of England and into Wales, and that meant that, on the economy, he actually pitched slightly leftwards. So, I actually, sort of, approved of that approach. The big question really, he then obviously then started talking about levelling up and promised great investment in the regions. The problem really is now we’re obviously in a public health crisis, which is already an economic crisis, too, and the question is whether he will stick to that agenda of levelling up and investing in the regions and trying to grow our way out of this problem, or whether he adopts something that’s maybe a bit more, sort of, traditionally Conservative. I hope it’s the former and not the latter.

Anne McElvoy

Throw it over there to Andreas. I’m interested whether you think, having listened to that, that a kind of conservatism of a new stripe that Nick describes is close to Christian democracy as you experience it, and obviously because you know both countries well, and their political and historical underpinning. Would Christian democracy work as well in Britain, as a lot of people who advocate that kind of conservatism think? And I’m going to throw you something else, as well, Andreas, because just that the questions are thick and fast, is really do coalitions – which, I suppose, would, kind of, go with, if you were going to do Christian democracy, probably end up in coalition and politics, I think we could probably cut to that chase. Does that dilute the chances of significant Conservative policies being adopted? So, there you go, just a couple of thoughts.

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah, quite a couple of thoughts requiring a couple of answers. So, I think, in a certain way, the discourse in Germany is a bit different. I perfectly understand what Nick is saying about this communitarian tradition within English conservatism, and I think, in a certain way, it’s similar to what we call social market economy in Germany. However, we spoke a couple of words before this conversation, and Nick said that this one nation conservatism, in a certain way, is a bit of a shallow term in Britain, and the same is true for social market economy in Germany. This is the, kind of, mantra of the Christian Democrats.

And to answer the other question in combination with that of coalitions, of course, coalitions in Germany, and we have – three out of four electoral periods, of the last election periods have been governed by grand coalition, so it’s the grand compromise, it’s like something like the Austrian model, and, indeed, Social Democrats and Christian Democrats have not only made a lot of compromises, but the social democratic bias of the Christian Democrats has become stronger. So, on the one hand, this is the secret of Merkel’s capability of governing, that she is so agreeable for the political left on the one hand. But, on the other hand, this is – so, to answer the question, it has created an enormous deficit of under – of identifiable and specific Christian democratic profile in economic politics.

So, the idea of Christian democracy basically is what they call subsidiarity, the idea that, first of all, individuals or families are self-responsible and, if they are not able to fulfil their self-responsibility, then, but not before then, the community of the state steps in. This is the basic idea of Christian democracy, and the debate in Germany, a bit that’s posed from the English discourse, is that we have an ever-expanding state in Germany, and that they have no real trenches after the reforms of Gerhard Schröder in the early 2000s. There have not been social political cuts in Germany, and we have the problem of an ever-expanding state in Germany. So, this situation of discourse is somewhat – a bit different in Germany.

Anne McElvoy

Nick, I wondered – I mean, you laid out what you liked and – sort of, expected or would like to see more of from a Boris Johnson Government, but the, sort of, rude facts of the moment, and you will know how this feels from your time in in Number 10, is there is a bit of a feeling of when I think The Economist, The Guardian, the FT, and a number of other places that don’t have, if you’d like, that broad liberal view of the right of at least the commentariat as saying, hmmm, Boris Johnson might never really recover from an unfortunate start and mishandling of COVID. These are things, aren’t they, that, kind of, come across the great schemes and dreams, and which you didn’t really ever get the chance to put a lot of your thinking into practice because you got tangled up, you know, to put too fine a point on it, in Theresa May failing to get Brexit done? So, what’s the balance here between big thoughts and practical politics and pratfalls?

Nick Timothy

Well, I mean, obviously, practical politics quite often disrupts the grandest of policy dreams. I mean, I started my column a couple of weeks ago with this question about – a friend of mine had called me and said – not long after Boris was elected, he said, “I think this feels like 1979, it’s this opportunity for this new realignment in politics and a completely new agenda,” and I said, “Well, I’m – I” – it was just as the pandemic was starting to spread around the world, and I said, “Oh, I’m a bit worried it might be 1992, where you get a Conservative Government elected after a long time in power, and then this cataclysmic event just smashes you from the side and you can’t get anything done.” Time…

Anne McElvoy

So, you’re referring to ERM there and the fact…

Nick Timothy

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

…John Major…

Nick Timothy

And the Black Wednesday.

Anne McElvoy

…never really got over ERM, did he? You know, it just…

Nick Timothy

Yeah, and I…

Anne McElvoy

…felt like it was a burden.

Nick Timothy

And time will tell on this. I mean, I think the truth is that the fiscal consequences of this economic crisis are not like the financial crash. They do not necessarily lead us to a decade of austerity, and I don’t think there is anything in the government’s public pronouncements or in Boris’ personal disposition to suggest that we are going to live through a period of austerity. So, I think the challenge they have now is to make sure that they take the things that they were promising to do before the pandemic, which is, you know, making the most of Brexit, and trying to level up and invest in the regions, and make those the, sort of, centre stage of their plan for recovery now. And, if it’s possible, to bring those together and to continue with the political narrative that can succeed over the next few years, but, clearly, the danger is, if you – if you’re undermined by attacks on the basis of your competence, then you might not be heard on other things, and that’s what they’ve got to try to address.

Anne McElvoy

Different angle perhaps we could touch on, Andreas, an interesting question from William Crawley. “Do you see the judiciaries in Britain and Germany as Conservative or radical influences?”

Dr Andreas Rödder

I did not get the question. Could you just – the…?

Anne McElvoy

Is the judiciary in Judges in…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Hmmm hmm.

Anne McElvoy

…Britain and Germany and Judge-made law, I suppose the implication…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

…Conservative or a radical influence?

Dr Andreas Rödder

Oh, this is a pretty intricate question.

Anne McElvoy

It is a bit. It is a…

Dr Andreas Rödder

But…

Anne McElvoy

…bit and I’m afraid I’m going to take short answers on it because it could open up a whole other Chatham House seminar.

Dr Andreas Rödder

I would say it’s – can’t answer for the whole judiciary, but if I have a look to the constitutional court in Germany, it’s pretty powerful, and if you ever look that the constitutional court made a judgment about the ECB politics a couple of weeks ago. It is a strong political factor, at least for Germany.

Anne McElvoy

So, you would say that the ECB you read – you seem to read it, if I’m right, as more of a rebalancing than a radical versus Conservative framing?

Dr Andreas Rödder

I would say so, yeah.

Anne McElvoy

Okay, sorry, and, Nick, often, like many things, the argument just, sort of, consumed, a bit hotter, isn’t it, but at least a heated temperature about the judiciary, partly because of Brexit, but also that, sort of, allegation of Judges or, depending which side you’re on, that Judges are pushing through change against Conservatives. What do you think?

Nick Timothy

Yeah, so I think – I mean, I think it depends on which bit of the judiciary you’re looking at. So, if you certainly look at the lower and middle tiers of the immigration tribunals, for example, there are a lot of former Claimant Immigration Lawyers working as Immigration Judges, and I think, in that situation, there probably is something that’s a bit political or philosophical. Overall, though, I think it’s a little bit like when people complain about the leadership of public services or the nature of quangos. It’s often not really about the individual beliefs of the people running these organisations or presiding over court cases in the judiciary. It’s often about the legal frameworks that they’re asked to operate within, and the creation of things like the Human Rights Act, the Equality Act, you know, previously the operation of European Law, often put Judges in a position where they had to strike down or at least declare incompatibility of legislation which became unpopular. But, in the end, that was the responsibility of Parliament for creating those laws, and Parliament is always in a position to be able to change those laws.

Anne McElvoy

Right. Okay, so we’re coming into the final straight now. I suppose we should turn a bit to the future and I’ll try to channel any questions that are coming in about that. Here is something about – okay, so we’ve got shareholders and stakeholder interest for companies. Nick, you might like to just do us a favour and be quick on that. I know it’s a massively interesting question, but I suppose if you could wrap it up a bit with – I’m interested in how we would know, in either of your cases – conservatism is, sort of, changing under your feet, the end of the Merkel years can’t be very far away, we don’t know how long the Boris years will last. How many of your – if you like, your – things that you care most about are you most sure are going to change, and what do you think it could be hardest to change? Which is why I, sort of, go a bit fast past that shareholder capitalism point, but, Nick, you might like to just – actually, let’s go back to Andreas first because that seems a more sensible order. Andreas, what do you think will change at the end of the Merkel years and what do you think will be hard to change?

Dr Andreas Rödder

And it’s an open question, since, you know, there are three pretenders for becoming her successor in December, and their proffers are pretty different. So, I mean, Laschet, the Prime Minister of the state of North-Rhine Westphalia would be, in a certain way, the continuation of Merkel. Norbert Röttgen is a foreign political intellectual, and Friedrich Merz is a liberal – very strategic and classical liberal Conservative. So, this will change the party, dependent – depending from the decision, which will be taken, so this is difficult to say. I think one of the great challenges for Christian democracy, to put it in German – in a German word, would be to find balance between a strong state, which is capable of acting to provide infrastructure, which is really suffering in Germany, on the one hand, but which still is a slim state and not this helicopter, money-spreading state, which is demanded from state all over the EU at the moment, and in Germany, as well. So, to find this kind of a new balance of subsidiarity, which is at the core of Christian democratic thinking, I think is the greatest challenge and will be the greatest problem at the same time.

Anne McElvoy

Nick, I namechecked a couple of things with you, they fit with the question, I think, same direction from Letitia Lemay, have I got that right? “Citing a book on the economics of belonging proposing a Scandinavian model for the UK is the way to address the problems of left behind regions.” I’m just going to slightly freely adapt that question and say does everything just end up, then, sort of, collapsing into a social democratic, kind of, mix with a lightly Conservative badging?

Nick Timothy

Well, I mean, I think political parties quite often, sort of, converge on one another when a consensus starts to be established and when it’s clear what the electorate wants of them, and I think it is possible to imagine the two parties fighting over a slightly – you know, two different versions of slightly more interventionalist agendas. I’m afraid to say we’re probably going to see cultural issues being just as live as economic ones for the foreseeable future, too. So, I would think that, if the parties do move in the way that I anticipate they might on the economy, there will still be room for disagreement about the nature of taxation, the level, you know, where you get it from, taxing income and wealth, and so on. There’s still plenty to argue about, but you can see that there might be some broad parameters within which the parties would operate, and they will still, I think – they’re quite likely to fight one another quite aggressively on cultural issues.

Anne McElvoy

Shame we can’t dive deeper into identity politics at the moment because there’s a lot to unpack there, but I’m going to give the very last thought to you and then to Andreas, briefly, if you could. Nationalism in conservatism, nationalism in everything, but Conservatives are possibly sometimes unfairly accused, if they have a danger, it is a slide into nationalism. Is that something that you think is real or do you think it is confected or exaggerated? Nick first.

Nick Timothy

Well, I mean, clearly, there is a nationalist tendency on the right in any society that you might choose to look at and, in my experience, there isn’t much of that in Conservative politics at a, sort of, parliamentary level. I don’t think that’s too much to worry about, but I do think that, sort of, illiberalism and authoritarianism is something we should always guard against and we should always try to protect that core of essential liberalism I talked about earlier.

Anne McElvoy

Andreas, last thought to you. You’ve witnessed the rise of the AFD in…

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

…Germany, the sense of a closing of an era when Merkel goes, you’ve named some of the candidates. Fears of resurgent nationalism or just something to get Brits too hot under the collar about?

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah, of course the AfD is a nationalist party, and has become increasingly nati – an increasingly nationalist and resentful party. If I have a look to German conservatism as I – if I combine it with CDU, I think the CDU has clearly decided to draw a clear line and not to coalesce with the AfD, so the nationalist resentment of the AfD, in a certain way, protects the CDU from becoming nationalist, as I would say. So, the question is, how will CDU manage on the other hand to draw the line as opposed to identity politics, since I said CDU is in a great seduction to ever assimilate to this identity politics and left-wing politics. So the idea would be to find the kind of patriotism and, at the same time, kind of, integration politics, which refers to, kind of, leading culture, which, at the same time, is a kind of civic leaving culture for all citizens, and so manage to overcome the ‘we’ and the ‘you’ of us, the German society, and the migrant on the other hand. If the – so the…

Anne McElvoy

Andreas, I’m sorry…

Dr Andreas Rödder

You…

Anne McElvoy

…I’m going to have to interrupt you ‘cause I must dive off.

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah.

Anne McElvoy

So, I mean, feel free to conclude your thought and then I might leave you to say your goodbyes rather more courteously than I’m able to do, but if you just – your last ringing thought, if you could, very briefly.

Dr Andreas Rödder

Yeah. It’s just a chance for the Christian Democrats to develop anoth – a new and a modern idea of integration politic – of integration concept without becoming identi – without being identity politics or nationalist resentment.

Anne McElvoy

I have to leave the call. Thank you so much for your time and I shall leave these two erudite gentlemen to say their own goodbyes.

Dr Andreas Rödder

Thanks that you joined us.