Yusuf Hassan
Great. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to each and every one of you for joining us at this important Chatham House members’ events webinar on Race and Politics. The killing of George Floyd on the 25th of May 2020 by a Police Officer in Minneapolis sparked protests across the US that have reverberated around the world and forced long overdue conversations on systemic racism. Racial prejudices are sustained by social, political and economic systems and structures that failed to accommodate and represent diverse voices. The ongoing BLM protests, or Black Lives Matter, have brought renewed focus onto laws, policies, and practices that actively discriminate against people of colour, and as societies are forced to confront these persistent and racist cultures and environments, does the current moment mark a significant shift in the global antiracist movement? That’ll be the topic of discussion today, and we are so lucky to be joined by two leaders in the antiracist world, both of whom are very distinguished individuals, who have actively campaigned and worked on this topic and have made active efforts to ensure that the lives of people of colour, of Black people, are made easier through effective and substantial changes to the way that our countries, our political systems, and our institutions operate.
We are very lucky to be joined by, firstly, Dawn Butler MP. She’s a Member of Parliament for Brent Central with the Labour Party. She’s worked as a Equality and Race Officer at GMB Union, the trade union, and as an Advisor to the Mayor of London. Dawn is also an Honorary Vice-President of the British Youth Council and was Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Youth Affairs, and was made a Member of the Children, Schools and Families Select Committee. In 2008, she became Assistant Whip in the Commons before her work on youth led to Dawn being appointed as a Minister for Young Citizens and Youth Engagement at the Cabinet Office by Prime Minister at that time, Gordon Brown. Thank you for joining us, Dawn.
We are also joined by Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry, who serves as the Director of the Stephen Lawrence Research Centre at De Montfort University, where she’s also a Reader in History. Prior to her appointment at De Montfort, she was an Associate Professor of History and Co-Director of the African & African-American Studies Programme at East Carolina University in the US. Dr Perry received her Bachelors Degree in History and Political Science at North Carolina Central University, and obtained her Doctorate in Comparative Black History at the Michigan State University, where she’s been awarded with Research Fellowships with the Carter G Woodson Institute for African & African-American Studies at the University of Virginia, and Dukes University Department of History, and the American Council for Learned Societies.
I am very, very thankful to have both of you with us. Your introductions really shows the merit that you both have to be speaking about such an important topic as this. I find it poignant that we find ourselves, of course, a week removed from our centenary celebrations at Chatham House, and I think it’s a beautiful thing for us to be able to start our next century initiative and next century’s events, with an event like this, and I hope we continue as we begin. On that note, I will pass it over to our first speaker, who will be Dawn Butler MP, to provide her opening remarks. Dawn, thank you for joining us.
Dawn Butler MP
Thank you. Thank you, Yusuf, for that wonderful introduction, and you’re right, it’s a great, sort of, time to be having this debate, and congratulations to Chatham House for organising it as one of their first after their celebration of their centenary. So, I’m going to quickly talk about how racism affects the political discourse, and people, kind of, say is there racism in politics, and, if there is, you know, can we see it? Is it tangible, is it palpable? So, I say this, that we have had state-sanctioned discrimination for – probably for as long as politics ever existed, but now we’re in this time where we’re now seeing the manifestations of this state-sanctioned discrimination, and I’ll name a few areas. Windrush scandal, Grenfell, the Police, and COVID-19. So, all of these areas highlight just how damaging and dangerous state-sanctioned racism is in modern times.
So, we know that the Windrush scandal and the hostile environment was basically state-sanctioned discrimination, and people may feel uncomfortable with that term, but, really, I think we have gone past people feeling uncomfortable. And what we need to go towards is people owning and understanding and then seeing what they can do and what role they can play in trying to dismantle the systemic racism that exists in society, in their own workplace, and politically. We know that those people that have suffered from the hostile environment are, in the main, African Caribbean, and are of a certain age. So, if this had happened at any other – in any other country, the UK would have sent people to that country to investigate what was happening, if there was a state-sanctioned discrimination, as we have had, and has manifested itself in the Windrush scandal.
Grenfell. Grenfell inquiry has restarted. It restarted last week, but this inquiry is not taking into consideration, under its terms and conditions, racism and class. Without taking those aspects into consideration, the inquiry will be incomplete, and it will also be on the wrong side of history. Because we have to question why there’s a group of people in a high-rise estate who questioned why their homes had been covered in a flammable material and yet, still they were ignored. Why were their voices silenced? Why were their voices not taken into consideration? What was it that didn’t allow their voices to be amplified and for that to be taken into consideration? And we saw the end result, the tragic end result, of that.
The Police force. I mean, it is a well-known fact that Black people get stopped and searched, and young Black men get stopped and searched, at least 12 times more than their White counterpart. I mean, I talk about when I was about 13/14 years old, and my brother said to me, “You know, Dawn, if you’re ever in trouble, don’t call the Police, call us. We will protect you, whereas we can’t guarantee that the Police will protect you.” I mean, they actually said it a lot differently, but that is me saying it in, kind of, palatable terms, but to call them, don’t call the Police, and all these years later, there’s still issues with the Police. So, we have to understand that systemic racism is not only real, it’s damaging, and now we’re at a point in time where it’s what can we all do and how can the people use their privilege to change?
And COVID-19. COVID-19, in my constituency in Brent Central, we have a very high death rate, and people have said to me, and I raised this in the floor of the House, the House of Commons, and people have said to me, “Oh, Dawn, don’t try and” – people will try to be clever and said, “Oh, Dawn,” you know, “what are you trying to say, that the virus is racist?” And, you know, you have to take a deep breath and you have to understand that people are, in their own way, coming on their own journey. And I have to say, “Look, the virus isn’t racist, but society is racist, and because of that racism, it has led to a disproportionate amount of deaths in African Caribbean and Asian, particularly men, and women.”
And so, I think the reason why we’re having all these debates now, and probably the reason why people are now questioning what they’re actually seeing with their own eyes is because, one, you can see it with your own eyes. The lynching of George Floyd, those eight minutes and 46 seconds, people saw that with their own eyes, and they couldn’t explain it away. If you’d heard it from somebody else, they would have said, “Oh, yes, but he was being really aggressive.” “Oh, yes, but he had a gun.” “Oh, yes, but he had,” but you couldn’t explain that racism away, it was right there in front of your eyes, eight minutes 46 seconds.
And the other thing is this, I think the pandemic has led us all to be more reflective. When you want to not think about something, you keep yourself busy, and, actually, COVID-19 and the pandemic has meant that our lives have been steadied and have been stilled for a while. Because we’ve been stilled for a while, we’re now thinking about things, and people are now thinking about things, and that is why, when – and I’ll end on this, I’m, kind of, optimistic in this moment because, when you look at the people who’ve taken to the streets, there are people who would have normally just maybe have sat at home. But they’ve been sitting at home for weeks and months, and they’ve seen this racism played out in front of their own very eyes, and they’re now saying, “Well, how comes I didn’t see that before?” “How comes I didn’t recognise that before?” And “Now I need to do something about it,” and that’s why I’m optimistic about this moment in time. Thank you.
Yusuf Hassan
Thank you so much, Dawn, for those great words. I think there’s something – there’s so much to learn from exactly what you’ve said, and I think I find it particularly interesting, you mentioned the fact that people are now able to process much more than they were able to before the pandemic, life just moved on, I think. And we’ve heard these names, whether it be Eric Garner, whether it be Sandra Bland, amongst others, where individuals have passed away and then there’s been upset and people have moved on relatively quickly, but, because of the pandemic, everyone is, to a certain extent, stuck to just dwell over why these things are happening, and thank you so much for that in particular. I will pass onto Dr Kennetty, but ju – to Dr Kennetta, but just before I do, I’ll mention that, of course, this event is being recorded and is livestreamed, which also means that you’re able to tweet any thoughts you may have, or any of the words of the speakers, on Twitter using the #CHEvents, and I’m sure many of the words that Dawn and Dr Kennetta say will be things that are poignant enough for you to share on your social media. Now passing over to Dr Kennetta.
Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry
Hi, thank you again for having me. It’s really an honour to be a part of this panel and in this discussion today. And I’ll think I’ll just, sort of, really pick up where Dawn left off, in terms of thinking about what this moment makes possible, and I think, you know, there are some things about the scale and scope of what we’ve seen in the last couple of weeks that feels different, or, you know, it feels like a moment of different kinds of possibility. And I do think the backdrop of COVID-19 and what that sets in motion, in terms of what people are thinking about and what becomes more visible in the day-to-day, that’s always been there, but there’s a way in which the backdrop of COVID-19 brings all of that into really clear focus.
So, you know, I was reading something this morning, an interview with Naomi Klein, where she was, sort of, talking about even, sort of, in our day-to-day, the things that we touch, you know, is – that’s something that we’re relating to differently, we’re thinking about where was this before I touched it? And, again, that’s making us think about capitalism differently. So, that’s making us think about all sorts of different kinds of inequalities, we’re thinking about the journey by which packages come to our house, and the keyworkers that are involved in that. And I definitely think that’s an important backdrop, because I think it’s where we, sort of, hear all the time that COVID-19 has magnified our ability to see pre-existing racial inequalities. I also think it’s, sort of, magnified our ability to notice, to notice those things that have been for so often unspoken, disregarded or unthought about, but that were there all the time. I think COVID-19 has really heightened our collective senses, in regard to how we notice day-to-day inequalities and how they’re experienced, like racism, how racism is experienced.
So, again, that point about reflection I think is so critical, because I think the other piece about the reflection thing is that COVID-19 sets the backdrop for people to think about what wasn’t working, in terms of business as usual, what do we not want to return to? You know, what was there that we don’t want to go back to, in terms of any kind of new normal? And people are raising that as a question, and I think, you know, that has also, sort of, set the backdrop for some of the ways that people have been responsive to the ways in which we have been able to see and bear witness to really crimes against humanity, I would argue, in terms of what happened to George Floyd. So, again, those things have been there, but our sensibility to, sort of, notice them, I think, has been a really big part of this moment.
One of the things that I’ll, sort of, talk a little bit about is, sort of, thinking about some of the parallels between the US and the UK, and I think, you know, in many ways, they’re parallel, but they’re also just very much intertwined. We share the same histories of colonialism and enslavement. Last year, there was a lot of conversation in the US about the year 1619 and what we make of it, but one of the things that – you know, I saw some of the media headlines in the UK, and it was like, you can’t divorce that from the fact that 1619, what was the US, and if that’s a starting point for us thinking about race and racism in the US, it was a British colony at that time. And so, in many ways, part of what we’re seeing, on both sides of the Atlantic is, sort of, the, sort of, continued legacy of British colonialism and a British imperial history of enslavement. And I think that’s something that also, sort of, unites or, sort of, intertwines these moments, as we’re looking at them on both sides of the Atlantic.
I also think one of the things that we’re also seeing, in terms of legacies is, sort of, the legacy of a, kind of, failed project of abolition that never really delivered a, kind of, full Black freedom. And I think that’s another thing that we’re seeing, you know, that the fact that abolition and the ending of slavery didn’t do all the work that it needed to do to actually fully incorporate people of African descent, or the formerly enslaved, into the nation’s state. And I think that’s one of the things that we’re grappling with, so when we see, in both nations, Black people being overrepresented at every level of the criminal justice system, and, again, this is the system that has a direct bearing on your experience of freedom in society, and then we also see that coupled with the underrepresentation of Black people in positions of power, in positions of influence, in decision-making in the public and private sector, you know, there’s, sort of, you know, a lot to be said about how that the genealogy of both of those trajectories, both in the US and in the UK, is very much entangled with the, kind of, unfinished project of emancipation, to some extent, and so, again, you know, kind of, indulged me, as a Historian here. I think the history piece is really important in, sort of, you know, really grappling with, you know, what didn’t happen historically and what needed to happen historically.
And I think that’s, kind of, what really leads me into, sort of, thinking about the political system and how we see public policy as a, kind of, tool for racism, and as a tool by which systematic and structural racism is made operative. And I can think of, you know, just a couple of examples here. You know, I think we can think about public policy and political systems operating both by design, in doing some of these things, but also, in practice, and, sort of, one good example that I think that Dawn has already made mention to is if we think about things like the Windrush scandal. You know, ultimately, that’s something that was set in motion with a set of immigration and nationality policies from the 1960s that we’re now seeing play out in this particular moment. And, by design, in 1962, if you go to those Cabinet debates, and if you go to, you know, the policymakers who were designing that Commonwealth Immigration Act of 1962, you can see the discourse there. That it’s about restricting particular kinds of immigration into the British nation and, sort of, creating this bounded notion of British citizenship that’s wrapped up in notions of whiteness, and wrapped up in ways to, sort of, racialise and stigmatise certain people from accessing the benefits and the resources that come along with the category of citizenship, and that’s one of the things that we’re continuing to see play out.
I think, you know, another piece that I think is important to note about how policy and the political structure works to, you know, operate racism is by its inaction. One of the things that’s striking to me about this moment is, if we look at the PHE report on the disproportionality that we’re seeing within COVID-19, this same report or this same information was available to us in 1980 with the Black Report, which basically talked about the ways in which there’s been – since the establishment of the NHS in 1948, that basically, we had been seeing this exacerbating health divide, this exacerbating health disparity. And part of what the Black Report does in the 1980s is says that, if we’re going to tackle health inequalities, we have to be looking wider at the socioeconomic determinants of health, and we have to, sort of, take a wider lens. We have to think about things, like increasing welfare benefits, abolishing child poverty, redistributing public resources, looking at quality housing for deprived communities, and that was echoed in 1997 with the Atkinson report, and the Marmot report in 2010.
And I’m wondering, you know, would we be thinking about Grenfell in the same way if we had actually, you know, actioned some of the things that were previously put on the table before? And I think that’s why, in this moment, you know, when governments’ response to what is happening is another report or another, sort of, set of explorations to, kind of, prove whether or not racism exists, or prove whether or not inequalities exist. In the case of the Metropolitan Police Department, this moment is demanding something much more, and it’s demanding that questioning of why government has remained so inactive and, sort of, used reporting and using collection of data as a way to, kind of, obfuscate dealing with the real issues that are going to actually move progress towards, sort of, addressing systematic inequalities that structure certain kinds of racial disparities that we’re seeing now, but again that have already been there. We have the data, in terms of knowing that that’s there, so we don’t need to, sort of, prove that anymore.
And I think that’s one of the things that I think is quite different, and I think there is a wider appetite and a wider reckoning, that those sorts of strategies that have been used by the political system are not going to hold weight. So, I think, you know, things that were previously unimaginable or unthinkable are now on the table, and I do agree that this moment holds a lot of promise because of that. But it is about how we leverage the visibility of this moment to think about longstanding, sustainable change, and that’s not only in the UK, but, I think, globally.
Yusuf Hassan
Thank you so much, Dr Kennetta. I think it’s – I think all the points you made – as a Historian, there’s a huge benefit in your ability to recall, in reality, how modern day and present day problems and – are routed, in reality, in issues that could have been dealt with or were perpetrated on purpose from decades ago. On the question that you raised at the end, or, to a certain extent, the point you made, regarding the reframing of society, one of the bigger questions that we’ve seen, or at least one of the bigger statements and requests from the Black Lives Matter movements globally has been a rethinking of the Police, a reimagining of the Police, sometimes phrased as defunding the Police. As, of course, the Director of the Stephen Lawrence Research Centre, the MacPherson report is only 21 years old, as of this year. How do you – can you speak towards where you feel those failings within institutions like the Police exist, and whether you felt any of the learnings that were provided to the Police, following the MacPherson report, have been implemented, or have things just begin to – began to deteriorate even further?
Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry
Yeah, I mean, I think MacPherson is an interesting, kind of, benchmark for some of these conversations. I think, on the one hand, there’s a lot that was never, sort of, dealt with that MacPherson was pointing us to, particularly, I think, one of the areas that – in terms of the work that we’re doing at the Stephen Lawrence Research Centre at De Montfort is to pay attention to the unfinished agenda, regarding MacPherson, and in relation to issues around education. You know, and what MacPherson wasn’t just about the Police, and it wasn’t just a statement about institutional racism within policing, but it also was, sort of, making a bigger conversation about things around the curriculum that needed to be addressed, and that’s definitely one of the areas that we’re very interested in.
But I also think, you know, this particular, you know, moment that I’m, sort of, thinking through is, I’m also thinking about how, you know, there are ways in which notions about abolishing the Police and defunding the Police are also, sort of, saying – you know, whereas MacPherson was about how do we reform? I actually think the conversations that we’re entering into now are actually, like, how do we actually tear it up and acknowledge that it – from its inception, it was not necessarily built to deliver a, kind of, equal justice for everyone in society?
And I think that’s a really powerful proposition, that we’re actually, sort of, saying, you know, we’re not just – I think Afua Hirsch had a great piece that – sort of, highlighting the ways in which what we’re saying is not the failing of the state or the failing of these different arms of the state, but they’re actually doing what they’re designed to do. They’re doing what the laws behind them, you know, that are enabling them to do, and so how do we re-appropriate resources? How do we reimagine questions around public safety?
And I think those are really interesting questions that I think take us even further than what MacPherson was trying to draw out. So, I do think, you know, part of what we have to do is – MacPherson was a great benchmark, and it introduced a, kind of, lexicon and a, kind of, public speak around the realities of institutional racism, particularly in British society. But I do think, again, we’re at another moment of reckoning, with, you know, how do we actually, you know, take this to an even different level to deliver, you know, an even wider, and imagine a more wider and expansive degree of justice for Black people in Britain, but also for any, you know, underserved or underrepresented community within any nation, and I think that’s the question that’s, you know, sort of, at stake now.
Yusuf Hassan
Well, thank you so much for that, Dr Kennetta. Dawn, do you have anything to speak towards that question or that area?
Dawn Butler MP
I think exactly that, I agree with Dr Kennetta, but I’ll also say this. I mean, I do think the Police force is operating as a force rather than operating as an establishment that is supposed to protect everybody equally. And the problem with Cressida Dick’s response to institutional racism is to talk about how she doesn’t think that it is a useful term, but it is a factual term, and, in its reality, the Police are still institutionally racist. So, if your first reaction is to put up a defence, then you are defending an institutionally racist system, and so, therefore, you are not part of the problem. I mean, you’re part of the problem, you’re not part of the solution, and, actually, she should be striving to be part of the solution. So, instead of saying, “I don’t find it a useful term,” or if you want to describe it as such, what you’re doing is you are putting the blame on the person that’s being discriminated against, rather than taking the responsibility ‘cause it is your job to do, as the head of that organisation, and this is what you’ll find in organisations that don’t want to change.
And where we have to move the dial, we have to move the dial to people who do want change in their organisation, and if that isn’t that person, then you need to find the person that wants change and will help to deliver change, because it’s absolutely vital. Because, you know, this has been happening for decades and decades and decades, and we see it manifest itself now because we’ve got, you know, the abundance of footage from people’s phones, but there’s so much more that happens. And it has to change, because, if it doesn’t change, I mean, it’s a fundamental tenant of how our society works, and so, it has to work and it has to change somehow.
Yusuf Hassan
Well, thank you so much for that, Dawn, and I invite, of course, our participants to ask questions in the ‘Q&A’ box, but a question directly to yourself, and I’ll be using my Chair’s privilege, Dawn, firstly, thank you for joining us. For those of you that are unaware that Dawn’s chose to close her constituency offices recently, just a couple of days ago actually, because of racial threats made towards her staff, and I think it really, to a certain extent, is a manifestation of the difficulty you, as, of course, a high profile Politician, a Black woman, faces in your position. The racialised nature in which – whether it be the way you’re covered in the media, whether it be the way that the institution itself may react towards you, when you are outspoken, is there anything you can speak towards that, and tangible, whether it be solutions or ways that we can move forward, so that the experience of generations to come after us aren’t necessarily reflected in the one that you currently have?
Dawn Butler MP
So, I mean, we do have to get to a point where we have fairness, equality and equity, and we need to get to that point at that moment in time. At the moment, we haven’t got to that point. So, yes, every time I speak out, I will be accused of being racist myself because I am challenging racism. I’m being accused of not telling the truth, when I’m telling the truth of the situation, and people will go to lengths to try and disprove what I’m saying, rather than accepting that there’s an issue and saying, “Well, how can it be dealt with?” I mean, this happens not just to me, but to everybody of colour in every single organisation, and so, it is how do we get to a point where, instead of being defensive and trying to disprove the fact that somebody says, “I didn’t get this promotion because of the colour of my skin or because I speak with a slight accent,” saying, “How can we change our organisation, so that doesn’t happen again?”
You know, there’s certain things that can be done, like, you know, blind name recruitment, blind name grading on exams, all of those things can be done, and are shown to have worked. But, yeah, at the end of the day, the abuse was just too much for me to justify – I mean, there was other issues as well in my office that I’ve talked about. But the abuse was just too much for me to justify keeping a public office on the high street open, because it wasn’t just my welfare that was at risk and in danger, but my staff’s welfare, as well, and I can’t protect them. I can’t physically be there all the time to protect them. I can’t protect them, and I wasn’t going to put them at risk in that way and so – and when people say, “Well, you should be able to disagree,” of course, disagree with me all you like, all day long. I’ll happily have a conversation, an argument, a discussion, whatever, but when you start to use threats, when you start to be racially abusive, when you start to insult, then no, I don’t have to put up with that. And, you know, people have got this impression that, you know, you have to listen to whatever – free speech doesn’t mean that you can talk to me any way that you like, and we need to start having those conversations.
Yusuf Hassan
No, completely. No, thank you so much, Dawn. Dr Kennetta, is there anything you have to speak towards it, especially as someone who has forged a successful career in academia, which, of course, isn’t the most diverse of professions to be engaging in?
Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry
Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, I guess, one of the – I mean, if we’re thinking about academia, I do think, you know, if I’m just, sort of, staying in that lane, it’s – it is another – we are at, you know, this moment where universities – again, there was a big, sort of – you know, a couple weeks ago, where universities were, sort of, you know, putting out different kinds of statements. We’re seeing all sorts of, I think, organisations, sort of, trying to, sort of, figure out what their stance is on these issues, and what – you know, particularly in the case of my own institution, some of the conversation has been about, you know, really looking in the mirror, you know, what do our boardrooms look like? You know, we have a – at our – at the university that I work at, it’s a 54% Black and Asian student population there. You know, so what does that mean, in terms of the curriculum? What does that mean, in terms of who’s in the classroom?
And one of the things I say all the time is, like, the debate about statues, and that whole notion of, like, what are we celebrating and what sorts of messages are we sending about what’s important through a statue, is the same sort of message that students are asking when they go through their whole British education or their university experience, and never encounter a person of colour in the classroom as a knowledge producer and as a person that is, sort of, sending a message about legitimate expertise. And so, I think it is, you know, prompting a lot of different kinds of questions about what our organisations look like. But I do think the first step is really looking in the mirror and acknowledging, you know, where the gaps are, where – you know, how do we get to – did we get to a point where no-one noticed the lack of diversity in certain decision-making spaces in our organisations?
And so, I think, you know, that’s one of the things, as well, that I think is, sort of, interesting about this moment, and I think another thing, too, is that we are speaking – I think that there’s been a shift in the discourse, whereas previously, conversations were just about diversity or the aspiration of inclusion. We’re now saying, you know, what does structural racism look like? You know, is our institution – you know, how is institutional racism manifest in our institution? We’re looking at the data, we’re seeing the lack of representation in certain spaces, and I – and, again, I still, you know, am quite hopeful, you know, that this provides an opportunity to link up a lot of conversations that have previously needed to happen.
Dawn Butler MP
Yusuf, could I say, it’s absolutely human nature to not want to interfere with something that benefits you. If things are going well for you, it’s absolutely human nature to not want to trouble it, because you’re having such a good time that you don’t want to upset the applecart. You know, it’s absolutely human nature to do that. It’s also human nature to have biases, we all have biases, but we have to get to a point where you’re checking your own bias in a situation and seeing if you can cancel out part of your bias by recorrecting yourself. It takes a lot of effort. It’s not something that’s easy. It’s something that, you know, you have to continually question and rehearse. And that’s something that has to be done, rather than – I mean, I have people who are the only person of colour in an organisation giving me a call saying, “Dawn, they’re asking me again how, do we handle this situation?” Yeah, and it’s a lot of pressure on this one person that’s employed in an organisation, to take all of that pressure on their shoulders. You know, and it is a case, as Dr Kennetta was saying, where, actually, some people have to just question themselves first, address what they’re saying and then come to a solution themselves and say, “Look, would this help if I did this that way? Would this help if I questioned this person for you?” because that privilege, that White privilege, works, you know, it works, otherwise it wouldn’t work, if you know what I mean. So, you can use it for good, as well as using it for just self-satisfaction.
Yusuf Hassan
Yeah, no, great, thank you both for your remarks. I will now move onto the Q&A section. Of course, for those of you interested, please do send along your questions in the ‘Q&A’ box. And I will begin, poignant, of course, because of the title of this conversation being Race and Politics, to you, Dawn. How can political representation be improved in areas where BAME communities feel unrepresented and polarised by manifestos or policies of, I’m assuming, all the political parties? Alongside that, it would be great if we could – to hear your thoughts on the question around racism being solely described as a White problem, and whether – and what your comments are towards that question, in the sense that the question, in this case, has mentioned how there are, of course, differing forms of racism, whether it be antisemitism, and other forms, including the textile workers’ controversy that took place in Leicester, which was people of colour subjecting other people of colour to somewhat oppression, therefore, it’d be great to hear your thoughts towards those two questions. Feel free to break it up, since they are quite wide.
Dawn Butler MP
Yeah, there’s a load in there. So, first of all – so, because of what’s happening, we’re all reading different things and questioning different things and trying to put pieces together, not just so that – to educate ourselves, but to also help us educate other people. So, I’m currently reading a book on race and caste, and how – you know, because race is actually a social construct, so is caste a social construct. And, actually, caste came before race, ‘cause it was always a way of trying to keep somebody else on top, so, it’s always about the oppressor and those oppressed. So, that is how that, kind of – those kind of practices can happen in certain areas, but it doesn’t cancel out racism.
So, what people try to do is they try to say, “Oh, yeah, racism, but how about this?” No, no, no, there’s no ‘but.’ You know, people say, “Oh, yeah, you believe in Black Lives Matters,” and they send me videos of a Black person doing something wrong. That doesn’t cancel out the fact that Black Lives Matter. It doesn’t cancel out the fact that there is racial discrimination, and it doesn’t cancel out the fact that there’s discrimination against Black people. Just because some Black people might do some things wrong, it doesn’t cancel out the fact that Black people have been oppressed and enslaved for centuries. So, people try and cancel things out with that argument, which actually makes you part of the problem.
You know, you talk about, like the grooming gangs, you know, and say, “But there was a grooming gang of Muslim people,” you know, “and paedophiles,” yes, all paedophiles are bad. Nobody’s going to defend a paedophile, if you do, you’re a sick person. But it makes you part of the problem if you think that is an acceptable part of an argument. It makes you part of the problem, so you need to question why you thought that was appropriate to bring that up when we’re talking about discrimination, ‘cause what it does, it takes us back instead of taking us forward, and what we’re trying to do with the discussion is bring it forward. So, that, kind of, tackles the bit about, you know, the – where you’ve got loads of people working in one place spreading a virus.
But the whole point – the other thing is this, is that you would think to yourselves, the people say, “Well, why did they go to work, if they were at risk of catching the virus, working so close to somebody?” But that’s the question you need to ask yourself. We’re the fifth richest country in the world, why are people going to work crammed in a workplace to try and make a living, so they can eat and feed themselves? Why has that happened? How did we get to that place? So, you have to ask yourself, how did that happen? Why is that situation? You know, how comes we haven’t got good working practices? Why are the trade unions not in there? We need to ask ourselves that question. Why has there been a systemic undermining of trade unions, because trade unions are there to protect workers’ rights? Why don’t you want workers to be protected? Why does there have to be this underclass of workers? So, that answers that bit, I think, and I can’t remember the other bits now, that was, like, a six-point question that I think came to me.
Yusuf Hassan
Not at all. Not a problem at all. The other question was, how can political representation be improved in areas where BAME communities feel underrepresented and polarised by manifestos from different parties?
Dawn Butler MP
Yeah, so, parties have to do a lot, lot better. I mean, Parliament was not designed for women. Parliament was not designed for Black people. Parliament was not designed for people of colour. Parliament was definitely not ready for somebody like me. So, you know, Parliament is a place that was just there for white, upper-class men, who smoked cigars, who – most of them were Lawyers, and, after a day’s work, they would go in, sit in a darkened room, puff on their cigar, and set a few laws, you know, for the masses. And, you know, some of them still think that’s their role, the only difference is, you are not allowed to smoke inside. So, you know, we have to challenge all of that, and understand that, actually, Parliament should be representative of the people that it seeks to serve. That means there should be somebody of every kind of ilk in Parliament. There should be more disabled people in Parliament. We haven’t got a deaf person in Parliament. You know, there should be more – we should have a trans person in Parliament. Parliament should be more reflective of the society that it seeks to serve. If not, we won’t hear those voices.
And it’s not to say that all voices are equal or the same or we are one homogenous group, and all think alike. We don’t, and that’s why it’s important that you don’t just have one person. You know, you don’t just have one person of colour around the table, ‘cause if you have that one person of colour, you put too much pressure on that person, and that person then feels they might have to act a certain way to assimilate into the room, into the conversation, which might not reflect how they really think, or it might reflect what they think because of their background and their upbringing, and that’s why it’s important that you don’t just have one person. But political parties are way behind, and it needs to change. The Labour Party is better than all the other parties put together, in terms of representation, but we still have a long way to go. I think the latest figure is that it’ll take another 150 years before we’re truly represented, and I will be long gone by then, I’m sure.
Yusuf Hassan
Well, let’s hope we get there earlier than that. No, no, thank you so much. Dr Kennetta, following up on the comments made earlier, regarding White privilege and White denial and silence, what kind of tools and strategies do you think might work, with regards to tackling this issue in different types of situations? And, of course, you can speak towards your experiences, having spoken out on this, especially with regards to academia. Alongside that, there is a question focusing on how the American model, or with regards to policing in America and the crisis in relations with regards to Black communities and the American – and the UK and American leadership. Do you feel that there are general tendencies involving race and ethnicity are similar in the UK and the US, or do you feel they’re different, having experienced both contexts, if you understand what I mean? Do you – does that question make sense?
Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry
Yeah, I’ll try to speak to it a little bit. So, just to, kind of, start about some of the things, you know, just practical steps to think about, you know, what works. I do think there’s a huge education component, you know, again to, kind of, go back to my area, that it matters, you know, what is taught in the curriculum. It matters whether or not students – and there was an incredible documentary on Channel 4 a couple of weeks ago, The School That Tried to End Racism. It matters to begin introducing some of these concepts early on, to think about how – you know, because one of the things that was really interesting about that documentary is that it was at work in the school, but the conversation went home to the parents, I’m sure it didn’t end there, you know, they were interacting with public spaces.
So, again, I think there’s a big education piece, and we have to reckon with the multiracial, multicultural history of Britain as the nation that is, sort of, intimately connected to the history of Britain as an empire. We have to reckon with, you know, what didn’t happen at abolition that set, in motion the legacy of things that we’re still dealing with. I mean, literally we just paid the bill on, you know, compensation to slave owners in 2015. Like, come on. So, like, there’s a real, you know, reckoning with history that I think is really important. And I also think, you know, again, alongside that point with what was happening in that documentary is that, you know, we do have to, sort of, invest in – and that’s one of the things I do think that I am seeing more conversations around, is investing in developing a, kind of, racial literacy, developing some ability to talk more fluently about race and racism, and to name it in particular kinds of ways, and to understand it.
I mean, one of the things that I always – when I’m trying to talk about racism, I’m also trying to tell people that racism is a proxy for understanding how power is operating. It’s really a conversation about power versus disempowerment and how that is happening, and how we see that empowerment happening, and that that can be a way into certain kinds of conversation. Just to the point someone asked about different forms of racism. Yes, we can have different kinds of conversations about different forms of racism because, again, you know, we’re mapping on different kinds of power relations. Now, I do think, you know, with Black Lives Matter, part of what we are, sort of, trying to hold in view is a particular kind of conversation about anti-Black racism.
However, what the demonstrations have shown us, what the visibility of this moment has shown us, is that that’s not an exclusive conversation. That’s a conversation that can be the source of solidarities across racial, ethnic, religious, you know, ability lines, gender lines, all of those sorts of things, and I think about my own self as, you know, I’m not just Black, I’m a Black woman. I’m a Black woman, you know, with a particular kind of background. I’m a Black woman that is not a citizen in this country. Like, you know, so, all of those things have to be held in view at the same time, and we have to, sort of, think in a more robust way.
And to Dawn’s point about the, kind of, ways in which people, sort of, move to – have these moves to, kind of, cancel conversations about race, and one of the things I think is, like, sort of, a real way that it happens all the times in academia, but in public spaces, is to use class, and to, sort of, say, “Well, what about class?” as if, you know, that is precluding a conversation about race. Someone mentioned in the chat, Stewart Hall. Stewart Hall basically said, you know, “Race is the modality in which class is lived,” and so we cannot, you know, have robust conversations about socioeconomic inequality, without attending to the different vectors by which those inequalities exist and persist, and, again, race, gender, ability, sexuality, citizenship status, all of those things play into those conversations.
So, a conversation about Black Lives Matter is an open conversation that is going to, again, join up those kinds of solidarity, and that’s definitely the kinds of things that we’ve seen in prior moments, where you’ve seen other kinds of racialised communities build certain kinds of solidarities against capitalism, against the ways in which colonialism was working. And so, you know, those things and those abilities to form those coalitions and to actually deliver results is something that, you know, has happened historically, and, again, those are some of the things that I think that we can look towards in this moment.
Just in terms of the last conversation – the last point about similarities between the US and the UK, I think, you know, one of the things I think – you know, that I think is, if we were having the conversation about policing, if we’re looking at things, you know, from a data perspective, in terms of representation in the criminal justice system, in some ways it’s a worse conversation in the UK, in terms of the disproportionalities, in terms of the representation in certain aspects of the criminal justice system. I do think one of the things that can be distinctive is the role of gun violence and the, sort of, proliferation of guns in the US is something that’s different.
However, one of the things that I think George Floyd remind us – reminded us of is that the issue of policing is about, you know, the ability to exercise – feel you have the capacity to exercise violence without impunity, that, you know, you’re not going to be checked or anything like that, you know, that there is not going to be a firing, there is not going to be – there aren’t going to be charges pressed. And, again, that’s a similar history in the UK, again, where we’re seeing, you know, this history of unjust policing practices, and, again, the ways in which there’s no accountability, there’s not even ch – you know, not – charges not even brought. And so, that ability to do those things and to, sort of, you know, disregard Black life and, sort of, not recognise people as human beings, I think is something that’s very similar, but sometimes the ways in which that happens is – can be different in these two different settings, but, nonetheless, the outcomes are still the same or very similar.
Yusuf Hassan
Okay, great. No, thank you so much. Dawn, do you have anything to add from Dr Kennetta’s comments?
Dawn Butler MP
I think somebody said that it – we’re saying it’s a White person’s problem, and the thing is, is that, well, I think that’s also coming from a sense of uncomfortability, where people are feeling, “Oh my God, you’re saying it’s my problem, or it’s only, you know, White people to blame.” It’s not, but White people are part of the solution, and, actually, inaction is the environment in which racism grows and develops, and so, if you are inactive, in terms of not fighting racism as a White person, then you are allowing racism to flow and to grow. And so, it’s all of our problems to resolve it, but we can’t do it without each other. And so, I mean, I read that there was somebody that wrote that thing to say, like, Black Lives Matter. We’re not saying that it’s only Black Lives Matters, we’re just saying Black Lives Matter and we need your help to make sure that, you know, it’s understood that Black Lives Matter, that, at the moment, Black lives don’t matter as much as other lives, and so that’s why we have this focus on Black lives mattering.
Yusuf Hassan
Okay, great. No, thank you so much for that, Dawn. The question – a really, really interesting question at the bottom now. Curriculum reform conversations seem to focus solely on slavery instead of a broader understanding of black history and empire. Whilst crucial, how we can encourage educators, especially when teaching history, to go beyond the slave and victim narratives for people of colour? Maybe I’ll start with yourself, Dr Kennetta, and then move onto Dawn, if she has anything to add.
Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry
Yeah, I mean, I think the conversation about curriculum reform needs to be joined up with a conversation about Teacher education. I think, you know, Teachers have been trained in education system and trained to not do this work, to not talk openly about race, and I think that’s a part of the, kind of, package that has to go along with that curriculum. What does it mean to introduce histories of enslavement in a classroom? You know, quite frankly, as a White Teacher, perhaps, in a classroom that may be dominated by students of colour and students of African descent, and so, like, that dynamic alone is something that has to be attended to. It’s not about, sort of, you know, shirking away from that.
I do think – you know, again, I’m, you know, of the persuasion that, again, I don’t think we deal enough – I think we teach a history – there’s a – the history that is taught about abolition, and that’s what the history of slavery does, is it allows the British nation to become an abolitionist nation, and that’s about as far as we get, in terms of understanding that. But – so, I do think we still need to reckon with the realities of enslavement and the violence of colonialism and all those things that, you know, are – again, we’re still seeing the legacies of, because I think they provide the important pretext and context for understanding the things that we’re still grappling with in this current moment. However, I do think it matters, you know, how we think about what it means to introduce those conversations and what it means to empower our educators to have the confidence to, sort of, you know, engage in these conversations and to feel themselves – you know, to be able to open up those dialogues.
So, I think, again, I’m personally, you know, liking some of the campaigns, particularly one of the ones with Runnymede that teach race, empire and migration. It’s joined up with, yes, we need different content, but we also need to think about antiracist pedagogy. We need to think about teaching practice that’s also socially just, and, sort of, you know, bringing all of these things to bear. And, again, I think, thinking about teaching practice, and thinking about social justice in our teaching practice, will not just lend itself to having a curriculum that’s more reflective of the society that we live in. It lends us to, you know, just, you know, having students who are thinking about all different kinds of injustices in society, or all different kinds of ways that they might want to think about themselves as change agents.
And so, again, you know, having Teachers that are, sort of, moving in that direction invites, I think, different kinds of conversations about what we really want our curriculum and what our education to actually do for people. And I think we want to raise people who are – or we want to educate people who are politically conscious, politically aware, able to decipher, in this moment, you know, in our world where the gravity of information is all over the place, you know, how do you actually discern and distil and figure out what are legitimate arguments and things like that? So, you know, I think that’s part of what – you know, the curriculum that we want to build, and that’s more than just adding and stirring a couple of, you know, kind of, themes or topics that are new, but it’s about, sort of, really revisiting and thinking about, you know, the role of the classroom and, kind of, creating a certain, kind of, necessary civic and political education.
And I think that’s something that we’ve, kind of, gotten away from that, I’m hoping that we were able to leverage this moment to think more about. And I think that’s, sort of, related to one of the questions there, like, how do we maintain momentum? How do we, you know, not let something just become a moment? And I do think it’s a critical time to think about how do we leverage the visibility? How do we leverage the ways in which institutions, people in positions of power, are thinking differently about that, and how do we, you know, make the case about sustainable change and what that looks like in our organisations and what we want to see moving forward? So, I think that that’s – definitely that’s the work for, I think, people who are organising around these issues to do, is to really be clear about what – in articulating what that vision can look like and what sorts of actions we think need to accompany that.
Yusuf Hassan
Thank you…
Dawn Butler MP
Yeah, I mean, I think…
Yusuf Hassan
…Dr Kennetta.
Dawn Butler MP
Yeah, the – education is absolutely vital. It’s absolutely pivotal to how we start changing things absolutely now, and if the government doesn’t – I fought in 2006 to ensure that Black history was part of the curriculum. But what happened was, for some reason, they thought Black history was slavery, whereas, actually, slavery just interrupted a very rich African history, and so, it’s absolutely vital that history is taught. But not just history, the contributions of Black people to society need to be taught, because, at the moment, how the curriculum is taught is that they – it’s – what it does is it reinforces the idea that there’s a group of people who were superior, and another group of people who were inferior. And so, that superiority, that privilege, gets carried right from the very beginning ‘cause that’s how you’re taught at school.
And there’s, like, two things that I remember, so I remember Malcolm X had said, “Would you let your enemy teach your children?” and that always resonated with me when I read that, ‘cause, you know, it’s like, “Would you let your enemy teach your children?” And that’s, essentially, a part of what the education was all about, and why the curriculum needs to change. But also, Jane Elliott, she – the day after Martin Luther King was assassinated, she separated her class into blue eyes and brown eyes, and then she started that education programme, and she’s still doing that now, and it’s really powerful work.
And I just think – and, you know, nothing is the solution in isolation, but education and teaching and school is absolutely vital, if we are going to change people’s thinking, and also for children to develop critical thinking, because, if they can’t do this critical analysis themselves, then there’s an issue and a problem. If you’re taught that everything black is bad or wrong or inferior, can you imagine when you find out that, actually, that Black child came to school, was way more intelligent than you when they started school but, actually, it’s the system that held them back? Can you imagine what that does to your mental health? So, it’s really important that the curriculum is changed.
Yusuf Hassan
I think education’s a beautiful topic to begin to conclude with. I think – just as you’ve mentioned in particular, I think – I imagine, as someone who grew up in Britain, went to a state school, the first encounter that we have with slavery refers to William Wilberforce discounting all of the other Black abolitionists that existed throughout history. And I think slavery’s probably, like you said, the only Black history you end up learning, which, of course, begins a inferiority complex for those of us that are interested in, of course, excelling within different – of course, historical or otherwise.
I think now we’ll probably begin to conclude, and I’d love to offer you both the opportunity to provide closing remarks, and maybe just to – just a small thing, from my side, in the sense that corporations, political parties, universities, have all, some would say, jumped on a bandwagon because you can commercialise Black Lives Matter, you can commodify it, something that’s cool, it’s hip, and it allows you to gain that source of capital within your own industries. What are the tangibles? What are – what is allyship? How do individuals, institutions, corporations, manifest allyship into their ways of working in the institutions themselves? And, of course, any other closing remarks you may have. I will start with Dr Kennetta.
Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry
Okay. I’ll just, sort of, say about the statements. I – you know, a lot of people easily will dismiss them and I get it, like, a lot of – you know, I think that there is something very performative about, you know, virtue signalling that is happening with that. However, there’s a way in which those statements are also going to become a blueprint for accountability. You know, I can – I know in organisations examples of, you know, staff members who are paying attention to what these organisations are putting out, in terms of their position there, and they’re going to have – they’re going to use their own words against them. Whereas, these statements might have been, sort of, you know, put together under certain kinds of conditions. You know, there are going to be ways in which, you know, you’re going to be held accountable to those statements.
So, I think there’s – even those things that might buy – you know, have come out from, you know – sort of, been designed into a particular kind of work, they do become ways for communities to make certain kinds of claims. And we’ve seen that historically, like, the notion of citizenship is about, you know, what certain people who were oftentimes denied the privilege of citizenship demanded that it become. And so – you know, and there were policies, and there were laws, that shifted in response to those demands, so I don’t discount that as well.
I think, in terms of, you know, what next, in terms of organisations, one of the things that I, you know, would encourage organisations to do to show and really demonstrate action on these things is to really – you know, just – even from a, kind of, beginning, kind of, representational piece, it is about, sort of, looking in the mirror and, sort of, thinking about, you know, what do our smart objectives need to look like? What are some things that – you know, we can look at our boardrooms, we can look at our spaces where the decisions are being made. What do we need to re-examine about the processes that have gotten us to spaces where it doesn’t represent the people who are on our staff, or it doesn’t represent the customer base that we’re serving or the communities that we’re serving?
And so, I think, you know, those are some really, kind of, concrete, actionable things that you can look at, and you can, sort of, say if your boardrooms are all White, or lack racial and ethnic diversity, you can set some benchmarks around that, and then the equalities law actually does allow for positive action. When you see that kind of underrepresentation, you can move in directions to actually remedy those disproportionalities that exist there. And so, you can set those things as targets, and when people at the top do that, they possess a lot of power to make the organisational culture follow. And so, I do think that there are some real practical steps that particularly for those in positions of power are now asking and being asked and can do that can really begin to shift the tone of certain kinds of organisational cultures.
Yusuf Hassan
Dawn.
Dawn Butler MP
Yeah, so, I think what we can do is for people who have privilege and position, and that’s everyone that has a privilege and position, I have a position, to use that for good, to use that for change, and to use that to make yourself feel uncomfortable. So, get out of your comfort zone, feel some – do something that makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable. You know, you may be around the boardroom table and they might be saying something that doesn’t resonate, maybe isn’t true, or there is, as Dr Kennetta has said, nobody of colour around the table, raise it around the table. Make yourself feel uncomfortable just for that moment, because, you know, Black people feel uncomfortable every single time we walk into a room, almost. So, for that moment, you know, make yourself feel uncomfortable.
What we have to do is ensure that, while companies are listening, that that listening is turned into active listening, and is also turned into action. So, we have to link that to key performance indicators so that, you know, their progress has a direct relation to how much they get paid, ‘cause a funny thing happens when you link performance to money and change, you know, people get it done a lot quicker. It becomes less of a talking shop and more of a how can we get that done, when can we get that done? So, it needs to be linked to KPIs. And I would say make room, so it’s not about – I’m not asking people to remove themselves from the table and allow somebody to sit at that table. That table is big enough. Make room for somebody else to be at that table, and those – that’s when we start to see change, because, until we get systemic change, until we start changing the structures, we’re only going to see small incremental changes.
So, I don’t just want to see another person around the table, I want to make sure that the system is designed in such a way that nobody’s going to be prevented from sitting around that table again, and that’s why I think this is our moment now. So, our moment is not about incremental changes, is not about a little bit, or the one person, it’s about the system. How do we change the system? So, first of all, we can have a quick change, right, we get someone round the table, and then how do we change the system? ‘Cause, without that, we will be back here again the next generation, in another ten years, we’ll be back here again, and I don’t think any of us wants that.
And the other thing that I think is really important in this time is that we’ve got generations of people all fighting together. So, before, it was maybe one generation. Now, we’ve got three or four generations all fighting together, all fighting for the same thing, and it’s not just one group of people, and, because of that, it’s a powerful base, it’s a powerful foundation. And because it’s so powerful, we can see change, as long as we don’t give up and we focus on dismantling the system and the structural barriers and the systemic racism that exists in society.
Yusuf Hassan
Thank you so much, Dawn, and thank you, actually, to both of you, Dr Kennetta Perry and Dawn Butler MP, for your incredible remarks throughout this meeting. I’ve learnt a lot and I’m assuming – I can only assume that our audience has also learnt huge amounts. This is a discussion that I have been really, really honoured to host. I can only, once again, thank you, and thank you to our attendees. All of this information and this video will be available on the Chatham House website after to watch and, of course, disseminate amongst your networks. I can only end by saying this is a struggle that, like Dawn has just said, is generational, and we – each and every one of us has a responsibility to contribute towards it. Generations to come, we will be asked about what we did when this moment came up. I hope each and every one of us in this call, and those watching on the livestream, can say proudly that we contributed and were on the right side of history, and contributed towards working and establishing a world where, regardless of your racial identity, your ethnicity, that you’re able to contribute and do all you can, without any barriers in front of you. Thank you so much and goodbye.
Dawn Butler MP
Thank you.
Dr Kennetta Hammond-Perry
Thank you.
