Webinar: Should Political Comedy Matter?

Keith Burnet

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Keith Burnet. I’m the Managing Director for Communications and Publishing at Chatham House and welcome to this Chatham House members’ event Should Political Comedy Matter? I’m joined by Yasmeen Serhan, who’s Staff Writer at The Atlantic, and by Tim Telling, who is Lead Writer on The Mash Report.

This event is on the record. It will last for around an hour, so it is recording. We’re using the #CHEvents, if you would like to tweet during the event, and when it comes to the questions, you can post your questions or – and if you don’t want to be brought into the audio, then please say when you post your questions, otherwise we may turn on the audio and come to you. Without further ado, I’m going to hand over to Yasmeen, who is going to make a few opening remarks, and then we’ll do a little bit of a follow-up conversation, and then I’ll turn to Tim, and then we’ll come to the audience. So, Yasmeen, over to you.

Yasmeen Serhan

Right, thanks, Keith, and thanks, everyone, for joining. I’m really excited to be part of this conversation. About a little over a year ago now, I suppose, I did a piece looking at the art of this, like, very British tradition of sketch writing ad I say British, because it’s not really something that we see in the US, or something that we have. I mean, you know, we have, obviously, Political Comedians, Satirists, but, the sketch writing, or as one person I interviewed called it, ‘verbal cartooning’, you know, the type of sort of things you see from Tom Peck in The Independent and John Crace in The Guardian, these, sort of, you know, really hilarious takedowns of either Politicians or the politics of the day, you don’t really see that much in, you know, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, or even, indeed, The Atlantic. So, I was really, kind of, interested in, sort of, looking at, you know, how this tradition came to be and the role that it plays in journalism today.

And what I was really surprised to find was, actually, that, you know, Parliamentary Sketch Writers and this, sort of, political satire that we come to know today has its roots in journalism. It got started back in the 18th Century, when Journalists here in Britain, basically, had to report on Parliament, but weren’t allowed to actually report verbatim what Politicians were saying at the time. So, what they, basically, had to do was, kind of, find creative ways of illustrating what was happening and they often did this either, kind of, using second-hand information, gossip or sometimes just making it up. Which, you know, I mean, effectively, what they were doing is they were giving an impression of what was happening, they were giving a sketch. And, you know, it – so, it wasn’t the type of journalism that I think we think of as journalism today, but it was the closest thing they could get to.

Today, of course, I think, you know, sketch writing and satire stands alone in its own separate institution. You know, I think when we think of journalism, we think of people who are telling us what happened, you know, the significance of it, but I think we turn to Sketch Writers and Comedians and Satirists to tell us, you know, how it happened, the, sort of, mood in the room, to, kind of, fill in all those other blanks that traditional Journalists can’t normally get to, certainly not in as funny of a way. And, you know, I would argue, and I’m sure we’ll get to this in the discussion, that, you know, modern day sketch writing and political satire is incredibly important today, in large part because I think, you know, while it shares a goal with journalism of, you know, holding power to account, I think it goes about doing so in a way that is fundamentally unique and different. I mean, often allows, you know, to, kind of, you know – I think Satirists have a way of, sort of, you know, critiquing people in power and politics in a way that Journalists aren’t – are unable to. And, you know, I think Journalists are bound by things, such as, you know, being objective, asking Politicians for comment, you know, trying to give a well-rounded picture. Whereas, Satirists, you know, can, kind of, just, you know – there’s no expectation of objectivity. They can, kind of, just go in, sort of, say it how it is and, sort of, paint a picture that, you know, people are free to disagree with, but, that fundamentally should also, kind of, be funny.

And yeah, I mean, I’ve just – you know, I think, kind of, obviously, given – when I did this piece, we were in the midst of Brexit, which feels like a lifetime ago and, you know, I asked some of the Sketch Writers that I spoke to for this piece, you know, if they found their job quite difficult, and this was a time where everything felt really shambolic and it seemed as though, you know, the act of comedy or sketch writing would almost, you know, be reduced to a transcription service. But to the contrary, they said it was quite a challenge to, you know, find ways of, you know, not only critiquing serious matters in a funny way, but also, holding people to account in ways that, you know, traditional Journalists weren’t able to.

Yeah, I mean, those were, kind of, just – you know, that – I figured that piece was, kind of, a, sort of, a good way to set the stage, not just to, you know, show the history behind this institution, but I think the way that it manifests itself today, not just in the sketches that we see, in some of the British newspapers today, but also in cartoons, in political comedy shows, and Comedians. I think, yeah, it’s just, it’s such a massive institution and a really important one and I’m really excited to get started with this conversation. I think there’s loads of topics to touch that I’m not really doing well in this, sort of, opening remarks. But, Keith, I’m sure you’ll have loads of questions, so…

Keith Burnet

No, you’re doing perfectly. It’s – I mean, I guess I’m quite interested in where the crossover is now, because the stuff that used to be funny, that used to be satire, and if I can go back to Spitting Image in the 1980s, when, like, the Cabinet and Norman Tebbit was portrayed as a skinhead who ate babies and that was a joke, because his personality was quite tough. Now, the joke is often the words that the Politicians are uttering, and the punchline comes when, you know, on television reports or when the Politician is actually just being represented as they are. Is this undermining the work of the Sketch Writers or making it more difficult, or is it making it easier, in a sense?

Yasmeen Serhan

Yeah, it’s a good question, because, I mean, as you say, on the one hand, it really does feel like in a lot of instances today all you really need to do is tweet out what a Politician says and you feel like there’s a humour there. But I think what Sketch Writers do – I mean, you know, it’s one thing to just call people names. I think what stands out to me about sketch writing and comedy that’s – you know, I don’t think the intent is to be cruel. I think, you know, we – I think we see – I mean, certainly, political leaders have demonstrated that name calling in and of itself is not funny, that’s, like, not something new, it’s something anyone can do. But I think what Sketch Writers do is, they, kind of, capture a truth in the way they, sort of, make fun of a situation.

So, you know, an example that I cite in my piece, this was, I guess, what feels like ages ago, when Boris Johnson was being quizzed about a photograph that had appeared in the press of him and his then girlfriend, now fiancé, I believe, Carrie Symonds, and they were asking, you know, “Where did the image come from? Did he know it was going to be there?” And, you know, that it was a – I believe it was a radio interview, but with video and you could watch it and, you know, it was just, like, this awkwardness. He was, kind of, fumbling over himself, not really answering and, you know, for John Crace, The Guardian Sketch Writer, he managed to capture that awkwardness, you know, in such a way where I don’t want to butcher his wording, so I’m actually going to find it, but yeah, he basically wrote, like, “Did he know who had taken the picture?” Or Boris mumbled, you know, “There have been so many photos, so little time.” You know, “When you’ve lied so many times, there’s always a danger you might accidentally tell the truth.” I mean, I feel like good jokes and good satire, kind of, get at the truth that we all recognise.

But even when it’s silly, I mean, you know, Michael Deacon, the Parliamentary Sketch Writer for the Daily Telegraph, you know, he, kind of, gave me some examples, like, you know, “Nigel Farage looks like a toad plotting a practical joke. Theresa May looks like a depressed waxwork. Boris Johnson looks like a sheepdog popping out of an upturned colander of spaghetti.” I mean, you know, these aren’t cruel jokes, but there’s an element of truth to them and that they, kind of, just reveal, sort of, the character of the people that, you know, are in power and that we’re dealing with.

Keith Burnet

So, that tradition continues, I guess. Are there limits, do you think that there’s a limit where something is, it’s too cruel, it goes too far? Is there a – is – you know, are the gloves off when it comes to the Prime Minister or Nigel Farage or, indeed, anyone else?

Yasmeen Serhan

I mean, I think it, kind of, comes with the territory that these jobs are obviously ones that are under heightened scrutiny, not just from Sketch Writers, but from everyone, and I think there’s an expectation of that. I mean, I’m sure there have been instances where people cross the line. Again, I think, you know, if it’s cruelty for the sake of it, being mean for the sake of it, you know, I think that – I don’t think that’s funny. I don’t really think that’s sketch writing at its best. Sketch writing at its best and comed – political comedy and commentary at its best, I think is when they are, like, you know, pointing out that, you know – just holding power to account, which I know is, kind of, a very broad way. I’m, like, trying to think of examples, but I’m sure…

Keith Burnet

I’m going…

Yasmeen Serhan

…there are. Sorry, yes.

Keith Burnet

So, what about are there topics that are off limit? And maybe we’ll come onto this in the wider discussions, but cartoons, cartoons of The Prophet, you know, they…

Yasmeen Serhan

Hmmm, yeah.

Keith Burnet

Sometimes these can become a life and death matter, rather than personal hurt or injury. What – where would you – also, there’s the debate in Scotland at the moment because there’s a new hate law coming in that – and there’s some concern about the unintended consequences of it. For you, do you – what would be off limits for you?

Yasmeen Serhan

So, I mean, you know, I, kind of, always go back to intention. Like, is the intention of the cartoon or the joke, or the commentary, to, like, have a genuine, like – you know, to make a genuine point, to address an issue? I mean, if the point is just to upset and to rile, I mean, you only need to go on Twitter for that. It doesn’t need to be some sort of formalised, institutionalised thing that, you know, is appearing in papers that – you know, reputable institutions and papers. And, you know, I think, kind of, you know, cartoons like The Prophet, kind of, fall into that really, you know, difficult territory. ‘Cause I think, you know, and often case is if the intent is just to rile up Muslims who find that offensive, then I think it’s just, it’s, kind of, a pointless endeavour, it’s not really funny. If, you know, if the point is to, kind of, just, you know, point out something shambolic or to point out, you know, some sort of political farce, something that’s silly, I mean, you know, there were some really wonderful, kind of, cartoons that came out of the Republican National Convention, for example, you know, kind of, all the – and even some of the memes that came out. I mean, you know, these were just instances of just, you know, kind of, I think not making – like not being inherently cruel and just making fun of these people for the sake of it, but you know, just point out, yeah, just…

Keith Burnet

Irony or the…

Yasmeen Serhan

Yeah, exactly, that’s it, yeah.

Keith Burnet

Of course. Okay, good, and we’ll be coming back to this, I’m sure. I’m going to turn to Tim now. Tim, but let’s just start, ‘cause I’m going to ask you a couple of questions, what’s your intention with the comedy, whether it’s The Daily Mash, The Mash Report, what’s your ultimate intention?

Tim Telling

Well, I think it’s changed. I think it’s changed. I think in the early – so, I think in 2012, I started editing The Daily Mash website. I think at the time my intention was just to antagonise people, really. I mean, I think I just – I was just of this kind of mindset that, kind of, antagonism was kind of a sport at the time and that it just…

Keith Burnet

And who would you like to antagonise most?

Tim Telling

Well, I’d…

Keith Burnet

Is it the Politicians or the people in power, is it their supporters, is it Journalists, is it – I mean, who would – or is it everyone?

Tim Telling

I think…

Keith Burnet

Anyone who’s antagonised…

Tim Telling

I think, you know…

Keith Burnet

…can be…

Tim Telling

…we could really, kind of, drill down deep into my childhood and find the base of this, sort of, bottomless well of resentment that I was, like, flailing around in at the time. But I suppose my – I guess my history to that point was that I’d been through a lot of shitty jobs. Can I swear? I’ve sworn, oh – but I…

Keith Burnet

This is Chatham House, it’s okay.

Tim Telling

Okay, cool. I, kind of – yeah, ‘cause I was not – I’d, kind of, been through this whole thing of, like, I wasn’t, like, an academic high achiever. I was, kind of, like, someone who’d, like, you know, I’d worked in factories, I’d done, like, plastering, I’d worked on building sites, you know. So, I’d, kind of, had developed this, kind of, sense of, like, I, kind of, felt like – and this is something that I still believe, I, kind of, felt like society was structured in such a way that, like, that the ultimate goal of the way things were put together was so that men with bushy eyebrows could have coastal property and that everyone else, everything else was a, kind of, a slave, a, kind of, a – you know, in service of that and I, kind of, still feel like that today. So, I think it’s, like, the ultimate enemy to me is, like, it’s the guys with the bushy eyebrows, who just own everything, and we don’t know their names, and these are the guys who are, like, above the guys who we, kind of, feel clever about knowing their names. These are the, like, the, kind of, the upper echelon, I suppose.

Keith Burnet

Okay, so we might come onto at least one guy with a bushy eyebrow who – in a moment, because for those of you who are – who have joined us might be aware that there’s a report in the Daily Telegraph today about the future of, sort of, left-wing comedy, as it’s called, at the BBC. But before we do that, ‘cause that’s fairly topical and relevant, can I just take you back a bit, then, to perhaps, to how did The Daily Mash come about and what was the – and maybe if you could touch on The Mash Report as well? I’m just quite interested in, you know, in the process, almost, how’s the content created?

Tim Telling

Sure. In terms of the history of The Daily Mash, there were – it was originated by two guys who were Political Journalists in Scotland, and originally, it was just going to be a website – it was engineered as a website just satirising Scottish politics. I think they rapidly realised that this was not the route to early retirement. So, you know, obviously, it, kind of, it broadened out into, you know, wider political satire and, kind of, I guess what you’d called social satire. So, kind of, a lot of stuff looking at, you know, class, morays, that sort of thing. And, yeah, I guess I joined the website as a Writer and I think there was – at the time there was, like, a Hotmail address that you could email into. I was doing a bit of comedy at the time. I was doing stand-up at the time, but I sent a story in and I got an email back, I remember I got an email back and I think it was just two words, it said, “Not bad.” I think that was the entirety of the email. It may have been four words, it may have been, “Not bad, try again.” But, anyway, I persisted with that and then became a Writer, became Deputy Editor and then, subsequently, Editor and was Editor for eight years.

In terms of how it was put together, it was quite – yeah, it was, I would say, I mean, certainly under my editorship, I guess shambolic would be the key word. And that’s not to, kind of, try and – you know, I’m not trying to, sort of, you know, style myself as a maverick, but it was just, it was simply like a very badly organised thing where I would – so, we’d have a dozen or so Writers, they’d be all over the place and they would email in pictures the day before, and I would choose the pictures and they would write during the previous day. Then I would get up. So, the first story of the day would be posted, normally, about 9:00am. So, I would have to get up about 7:00am to start prepping stuff and then, my day would be based – like, how close I would go to a nervous breakdown that day would be based entirely on the quality of the submissions that had come in overnight. ‘Cause if the – if submissions coming in overnight, you know, I’d turn on my computer at 7 o’clock in the morning and they were of the highest calibre and they, you know, hold power to account in the most sublime way, then it’s like, you know, then I…

Keith Burnet

First time.

Tim Telling

…could pop – then I can go and have some toast before I start doing me. If that’s not the case, then I would be – sometimes, you know, you either – you’re either heavily editing, rewriting, or you’re write – rewriting from scratch. So – and that was, kind of, how it went. So, it would be done pretty much on the hoof every morning. And if you wanted to create a machine to engender anxiety, it would probably function in quite a similar way to The Daily Mash. It was, kind of, a combination of being extremely time sensitive, extremely – you know, you’re extremely exposed and, also, you’re posting these stories on Facebook and Twitter, so you have almost immediate rejection. So, you know, and there’s nowhere to hide. So, failure is – and triumph is fleeting, but failure, just, like, would leave a, kind of, a more, a deeper, longer effect, it, kind of, seems.

Keith Burnet

And is that the same on The Mash Report, then? Is it – is – are you aware instantly when, you know, when something’s worked and when it hasn’t and depending on their feedback, as well?

Tim Telling

Hmmm, you – well, when we were – on previous series of The Mash Report, when we had a studio audience, you were aware of it in the same way. So, it was a different kind of – so, you’re – yeah, you’re still on the whatchamacallit, on the pedestal, whatever. But it’s, yeah, it’s a different thing, it’s a different thing. Yeah, it’s a different kind of neurosis, ‘cause it – there you’re just – when you’re in the studio, you’re just listening for, you know, laughter volume, but there are factors beyond the writing that you can blame for it if you’ve failed. So, you can blame aspects.

Keith Burnet

The delivery.

Tim Telling

Yeah, delivery, and this was actually a thing, in the first couple of series this is the thing that we really struggled with, in terms of, like – and this was the thing that we had to, sort of, factor into the writing, is, like, when you get a big laugh in the room, when you get a room laugh, it can spill over and then affect the delivery of the subsequent line. Or something that I had to learn was occasionally you would try and – you would have, like, a funny word or a phrase in the middle of a sentence and then you’re, kind of, causing yourself a problem, because it’s like if a laugh comes in the middle of the sentence, it obscures the remainder of the sentence. So, you do, kind of, have these – you know, you have to learn different tricks.

Keith Burnet

Okay and I’m going to come onto – well, actually, could you talk me a little bit through the process, what’s the – how does the programme come together and how are the scripts drawn and how do you know, you know, what to accept, what to reject, kind of, does it go up to the wire?

Tim Telling

Yeah, it, kind of, it does go up to the wire, to an extent. I mean, some stuff is pre-recorded, so there are sketch elements and they’re pre-recorded. That’s what they call VT, you know, that’s from, you know, when you’re a kid and Roland Rat says, “Run VT” or whatever, you know, and it’s, kind of, a part of TV grammar. And then, there are other stuff, there’s monologues and things that are partially time sensitive. In terms of the actual, the nuts and bolts, it’s, kind of, a four-day process, each episode, prior to the night of the record and there will be at least two Writers’ rooms operating. So, we’ll have one for The Daily Mash news desk stuff and Nish will have a room. And, you know, beyond that, it’s just, it’s hard to go into the minutiae, because it’s, kind of, like, really, you’ve got two rooms and each room is, like, basically, like three or four brains in a jar and, you know, it all gets collated at the end of the day and the Producers will, kind of, input on that. So, the Producers are, kind of, like, the filter.

Keith Burnet

Okay, that’s interesting, thanks. So, I’m going to just mention, in the Daily Telegraph this morning there was report that Tim Davie, the new DG of the BBC, has said and I quote, believes that “the BBC’s comedy output is too one-sided and unfairly biased against the Tories, Donald Trump and Brexit.” So, I’m quoting the article, not Tim Davie. And that, “Left-wing comedy shows should be axed.” And The Mash Report is mentioned there, and they also quote Andrew Neil. I don’t know if he’s one of the men with the bushy eyebrows, but Andrew Neil said, and this, I think it was on Twitter and it was a couple of years ago, that, “The Mash Report was self-satisfied, it’s left-wing propaganda and the programme itself has become a politics show.” And I’d actually like to have a bit of a conversation about that, about the politics of this. But, I mean, what – do you have an instant reaction to Tim Davie, in the sense that if The Mash Report is categorised as left-wing, is there a space for programmes that you might call, therefore, right-wing? And I know, of course, I know that, you know, there are elements of, sort of, right-wing Comedians, including on The Mash Report, but is there a space, or is there such a thing as left and right comedy, or is it just, in a sense, having a pop at the establishment, which you might, by definition, think is on the right?

Tim Telling

I guess, with something like The Mash Report – well, I suppose with satire, broadly speaking, you know, going back to that definition of satire as ‘speaking truth to power’, at the moment, we do have – we have a Tory Government, so they are the power, they are the active party, primarily. So, I think it is, in that sense, logical that they would be the principal targets, whether – you know, whatever side your show would – was coming from, you know, you’re going to be focused more on the Cabinet than the Shadow Cabinet.

In terms of there being more space for right-wing comedy, it’s – gosh, yeah, I mean, that’s a difficult thing, ‘cause I don’t think I approach what I do from a dogmatic or doctrinal kind of perspective of just thinking, like, is this funny? Is it – does it feel like something that it is worthwhile to say? So, I suppose it’s an artistic question, I suppose, you know, in terms of, like, you know, right-wing comedy. I mean, there are, you know, for example, there are guys – so, if you look at guys from the States, like, you know, maybe Dave Chappelle, I don’t know how he is perceived in the States, but I know some of the stuff that he does, you know, from conversation I’ve had with people, some of his stuff would maybe make some of the more left-wing guys over here uncomfortable. So…

Keith Burnet

But that’s probably more the exception, perhaps, than the rule. I don’t know, Yasmeen, can I bring you back in? You – do you have any thoughts on this?

Yasmeen Serhan

Yeah, I actually, I mean, I kind of, had a question, but I think it’s interesting, ‘cause I definitely, you know, I feel like I’ve come across either an article or a criticism that, you know, comedy or Comedians tend to lean left-wing. But part of me wonders if that’s just a biproduct of, at least, you know, in the US and Britain right now, having either, like, Conservative or Republican governments. Like, you know, I could only imagine that when there were left-wing parties in power that the jokes would then be aimed at them, ‘cause it’s just, you know, it depends whoever’s in power, is, you know, who are naturally going to be the butt of the jokes.

Keith Burnet

Yeah, and do you think that things have shifted so far, though, that, you know, you actually have, you have a President of the United States who actually creates his own fiction, who, you know, arguably, perhaps almost annoyingly, just puts things out there as a distraction, as a debate? And that must make it extremely hard to parody, because what are you parodying? You’re not necessarily parodying someone who’s, so – well, I guess he takes himself seriously, but you’re not necessarily paro – you’re not – is – does Boris Johnson take himself seriously? I guess he does, in some respects, but in other ways. Whereas, I’m sure Margaret Thatcher always took herself very seriously.

Yasmeen Serhan

I think, you know, I think President Trump, in particular, doesn’t have the thickest of skins, ‘cause I know, certainly, when Saturday Night Live, I mean, we remember Alec Baldwin, kind of, doing his schtick of him, and I remember him, kind of, going after him a lot on Twitter and, you know. So, I don’t really think he took to that type of criticism well. But that’s, kind of, part of what I think a lot of people like about comedy and satire is that – and, you know, I would assume that mostly, just, kind of, come to expect that this is just part of the job, this is what happens. But that, like, you know, they, kind of, get to – it’s – it feels so fundamentally different, though, from, like, Donald Trump railing against fake news or, like, reporting he doesn’t like.

But when you rail against a Satirist or a Comedian, where they’re, like, just trying to be funny, I feel like, you know, that some – a distinction that stands out to me is I just feel like leaders, or Politicians generally, don’t really have a lot to pushback on with Comedian – comedy and satire. Because, you know, take here in Britain, for example, if the Johnson administration, say, doesn’t like the reporting of the Today Programme, they can, you know, institute a boycott, not send their Ministers on there, as some form of punishment. Whereas, you know, if the Johnson administration doesn’t like the way John Crace writes about them, what are they going to do? I mean, there’s nothing really that they can do. And even, you know, the Sketch Writers I interviewed for my piece, they told me, like, specifically that they, kind of, go out of their way not to get to know the people that – you know, not to, like, meet or chat with their – like, you know, get friendly with the people that they’re writing about, which is, kind of, the opposite of journalism. You know, Journalists want access, they want to have that conversation and they told me it’s because they see them clearer from a distance. They feel like it just makes it easier to look at them with an objective set of eyes when they’re mak – when, you know, when they’re making their jokes.

Keith Burnet

That’s a good point. Tim, tell us about your political connections, do you have – are you in the inner circle?

Tim Telling

Well, I live in Gloucestershire. I live in a ditch, basically, in the middle of nowhere. I seldom look at the news when I’m not doing a series or something. I just can’t really psychologically handle it very well. I mean, I check in with it, but, you know, it’s – you know. I, kind of, feel with the – regards the news, I, kind of, feel like, you know, if you ate – if you quite liked Maltesers, but then you had to eat, like, 38 packets of Maltesers in an hour, you wouldn’t really return to them in a hurry. So, in terms of political connections, I have none whatsoever, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keith Burnet

None whatsoever, that’s interesting. So – but then, when you’re – you know, The Mash Report and The Daily Mash relies, do you – or does it, maybe this is the question, does it rely on a certain level of political knowledge and maybe insight or insider knowledge, or is it intended for anyone?

Tim Telling

Oh, I think it’s intended for anyone and I think it, kind of – that was perhaps its – yeah, I think it was intended for anyone, it’s – and it certainly had to be when I was editing it, because I didn’t really know anything, you know, I had no specialist knowledge. But it – but, nevertheless, I think it’s, like – I think in satire, you know, you can, kind of – and I’m trying to think of, like, the easiest way to articulate this. I suppose what I’m getting at is, like, you know, you can label things as left-wing and right-wing, but those are, kind of, expressions of deep – of a deeper moral perspective, I think. So – and I think that is, kind of, what is – what I would be trying to get at and I what I think contributed to the popularity of The Daily Mash, was that it wouldn’t, kind of, go into things, necessarily, on a, sort of, a molecular level or we wouldn’t, kind of, try to reference, necessarily, people who were obscure people. We wouldn’t try to be populist, but equally, it was, kind of, like, what interests me more is, and particularly, like, you know, like your reference just now, you know, the populism that’s going on at the moment. You could argue that that’s the thing that transcends left and right-wing and becomes a more – it’s a more human thing. It’s like why are these people – you know, this pursuit of populism, this, kind of, remodelling of politics as an extension of celebrity culture, how did that come to be? What kind of people does it engender and what does it instigate in people? Like, why do people – why are people drawn to what are ostensibly quite dark, quite hate filled narratives?  What is being, kind of, enlivened in them that draws them to that?

Keith Burnet

Yeah, fair point. Now, some questions, or I’m going to ask for some question now, and they’ll start to come in. So, I’ve got one from Emily Harving, and we have touched on this, but I might just drilldown a little bit, and, “What are the limits of political comedy and are there lines you don’t cross, if so, what are they?” And we, sort of, touched on that with Yasmeen, but Tim, I’m going to ask you that directly, are there lines that you won’t cross?

Tim Telling

Yes, certainly there are, but it’s – I don’t think there is really a set of principles. I think each instance is unique. Or, no, actually, no, that is a terrible answer and I’d like to retract that answer and replace it with a cleverer one, which…

Keith Burnet

You can do that.

Tim Telling

Which we can do. This is how technology works, isn’t it? I hope so.

Keith Burnet

You just…

Tim Telling

Yeah, no, I think, you know, you – I – you’re guided by your own moral compass, I suppose. I mean, I don’t think we ever, at The Daily Mash and/or at The Mash Report, I don’t think it’s like you would maybe have a set of guidelines, you know, pasted up on the wall. But, you know, there are certainly – there are things that – and there are things, as well, certainly on The Daily Mash that I wouldn’t do now, just ‘cause I’m a different person, perhaps.

Keith Burnet

Can you be – I mean, without – I’m genuinely not trying to get you to give something away, but can you be – are there specifics that…?

Tim Telling

Yeah, well, I’m happy to. I’m just going through my memory, trying to think. I mean, there are certainly things where, you know, looking back, I was a bit shocked by the level of vitriol. God, no, I really – so, in terms of specifics, I’m really struggling, ‘cause it’s just a memory thing, so I’m struggling with that.

Keith Burnet

Okay, but the level of vitriol directed towards you?

Tim Telling

No, that I…

Keith Burnet

Or in…

Tim Telling

…directed…

Keith Burnet

…general?

Tim Telling

…toward other people, I think. ‘Cause I – and also, the dynamic changes, because with The Daily Mash, for example, that, kind of, started off as a small thing and then became a bigger thing. So, the dynamic changes in terms of, like – I mean, I think there is one thing that – which is, like, you always try to punch up. I think that is fair to say. ‘Cause I think there are examples where, God, I can’t even remember the guy’s name, you know, where we might’ve had some reference, and this isn’t an example of a fantastic satirical title, but we have might’ve had some reference to, like, a defunct Pop Star, let’s say, who’s, like, fallen on hard times and then, you know, you post it and then you think, oh, shit, they’re going to read that or their kids are going to read it and it’ll upset them and it’s just, it’s – that’s not – you know. So, it’s a hard – but in terms of, like – yeah, it’s a har – it’s a difficult one to answer.

Keith Burnet

Okay, that’s fine. I mean, Yasmeen, do – are there – I mean, is satire itself becoming too much of a distraction? Because – yeah, that’s a, I guess, a straight question.

Yasmeen Serhan

I mean, I don’t think so. Maybe because I just find myself, kind of, on the opposite end of Tim, just because of my job. Like, I feel like I’m reading too much news, I’ve eaten too many Maltesers, like, it’s too much and I feel like satire is a nice, kind of, reprieve. Like, it’s a way – you know, for example, when I get to the end of a, like, end of a day, the last thing and I want to do, and I realised this especially in the last few months, where it still felt very crucial to do so, was to turn on the news and, kind of, sit and listen to all of that, it’s just draining. And, you know, I think, certainly, I’m sure a lot of people could sympathise, particularly in, like, you know, the very, sort of, partisan times that we live in, that, you know, even sitting with one’s family at a Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner table and, like, talking politics is just, like, it’s too much.

But I’d like to think that even with, you know, the family members with whom I disagree with vehemently, that we could probably sit down and watch Jon Stewart. That we could probably – even though, you know, as we were discussing before, that a lot of comedy tends to, you know, kind of, it’d be, perhaps, you know, be seen as leaning a bit left. You know, I’d like to think that we could all sit down and watch Trevor Noah or laugh at, you know, something Marina Hyde wrote in The Guardian, or, you know, a sketch.

So, no, I mean, I think it provides a sense of levity where it’s needed. I think it contextualises news, often, in a way that sometimes even just, you know, straightforward excellent news bulletins cannot. And I think it’s a way for people who are just, you know, totally drained and just, you know, can’t, kind of, get themselves to, you know, read yet another article, satire is just a, kind of, way of weirdly keeping up-to-date while also, kind of, getting at the root of some issues. Which I think, kind of, goes back to, I think, the two spheres that Satirists and Comedians and Journalisms, kind of, you know, find themselves in. I think there’s important overlap when it comes to, you know, holding people to account, to, kind of, pointing out, as you say, the ironies. But, no, I certainly get enough of it, but arguably, I probably should be reading more of it, anyway.

Keith Burnet

Okay, that’s good. I’m going to bring in Thea Jansen. Thea, are you happy to verbalise your question, or should I do it?

Thea Jansen

Hi, yes.

Keith Burnet

Please…

Thea Jansen

Hello.

Keith Burnet

…ask your question.

Thea Jansen

Hello. Yes, I wanted to ask whether the panellists had any thoughts about the current phenomenon of Political Comedians who have gotten into positions of power, like the Ukrainian Prime Minister or the leader of the Five Star Movement in Italy, Beppo Grillo? Thank you, that was my question.

Keith Burnet

Thank you. Yasmeen, any thoughts on that? And then, a supplementary question would be which – well, which Comedian do you know who you would like to see in Parliament?

Yasmeen Serhan

Ooh, that’s a good one. Yeah, I mean, I think those examples are interesting, I mean, I think particularly in terms of Five Star, and I think we’re, kind of, getting to the populism. Like, you know, I think these are, kind of, examples, I think of, you know, anti-establishment voices, which I think fits in very well with the, sort of, populist wave that we’ve, kind of, seen in coun – numerous countries around the word. Who better to, kind of, voice that anti-establishment sentiment than people who, you know, make a job out of, you know, making fun of the establishment and, sort of, poking – pointing out, sort of, what they’re doing wrong?

So, I mean, I guess that’s not terribly surprising to, kind of, see that phenomenon. How they fare in power, though, obviously, how these, like, anti-establishment leaders without the, sort of, traditional background, how they do once they’re in power, is interesting. And, you know, whether or not they can also deal with that, sort of, kind of, criticism that could be coming from others, I think is also interesting. Something that I don’t know the answer to, but I – now that you’ve asked the question, I’d actually be keen to go look and see.

As for who I would want elected and, to be honest, I mean, Marina Hyde isn’t a Sketch Writer, but she’s just a hilarious Columnist. I mean, I’d love to see her on the backbench, kind of, just bringing her columns to life, yeah.

Keith Burnet

Marina Hyde, yeah.

Yasmeen Serhan

Yeah, I’d nominate her now and she’d probably say no.

Keith Burnet

Good nomination, we’ll check her out. Tim, any thoughts or is it too early, really, to know, on the Comedians who actually become Politicians, the jury’s still out, perhaps?

Tim Telling

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it’s interesting to see – I think, you know, coronavirus has obviously exposed – it’s been very exposing for a lot of leaders, in terms of, like, you know, the reason my mum and dad like Boris Johnson is because he’s amusing. He says things in a funny way, he’s got unruly hair, he, I don’t know, you know, he eats a sandwich on camera. Well, you know, they like that, it – he’s funny, they like that, they respond to it. That sounds terribly condescending, but it is factually accurate. I mean, if you’d met my mum and dad, you’d agree. But you know…

Keith Burnet

Although Ed Miliband ate a sandwich and it didn’t go down too well.

Tim Telling

Oh no, that’s true, it didn’t, no. But in – but, you know, when catastrophe comes along, like coronavirus, that tests people in a way that is far beyond their rhetorical or entertainment capacities, so, you know, it’ll be interesting to see with those guys. I don’t know what’s going on with, like, Five Star and I don’t know what’s going on in Ukraine, but it will be interesting to see how, you know, people deal with this crucible.

Keith Burnet

And in the UK, any – Nish, any Comedians who you would like to see in – on the green benches, or even the red ones?

Tim Telling

Oh, boy. Well, no. No, I mean, I know – no, the thing is, I know Comedians too well and I would…

Keith Burnet

Why would they put themselves in the firing line?

Tim Telling

Well, where would they put themselves and where would they – I don’t think it’s healthy to, kind of, encourage them any more than – you know. And, also, it’s like the money is in stadium work, you know, it’s not in politics. You want to be, like, headlining at the NEC for, like, you know, 80 quid a ticket. No popular Comedian’s going to want to work for an MP’s salary.

Keith Burnet

I think that’s a very fair point. I’ve got other questions, so I’m going to bring in – I’ve two other people to come in. I have Evan Grace Frenkel, Evan, and then I’ll come to John Foster. Evan, are you happy to ask a question verbally?

Evan Grace Frenkel

Yes, I just don’t – I asked two questions, a bit cheeky, but I don’t know which one you would prefer?

Keith Burnet

Be cheeky, it’s fine.

Evan Grace Frenkel

Alright – well – so, the first question was referring to the conversation we had a few minutes ago about this idea of crossing the line. And I was just wondering if either panellist had a very concrete example of a political cartoon, they believe did cross the line and that can be a very personal opinion? And then on the second – a second question I had was about I feel like comedy is very cultural and we are from – coming from, like, a very, like, yeah, North – Northern Western culture perspective, and I was wondering if you, either of you, knew about political satire in countries that aren’t in the West or in the North and how those cultures are different when it comes to political satire? Thank you so much.

Keith Burnet

I think on the latter point, I’m not sure if any of my colleagues are able to chip in on that, but I know, you know, for example in Russia, cartoons are big and my colleague, James Nixey told me this morning that the Russian version of Spitting Image was taken off the air after about eight years into Putin’s reign. I know in China, again, most of it, most of the satire – ah, James, maybe you could chip in. Most of the satire is anonymous, it’s online. So, I think the tradition, although there are examples in the Middle East and elsewhere, so maybe others can chip in, but Yasmeen, do you have any thoughts on those points?

Yasmeen Serhan

Yeah, I was just going to say the only other example I can think of that I’m not, admittedly, not terribly familiar with, like, I know in Egypt there was a Comedian, I think his name was Bassem Youssef.

Keith Burnet

Bassem, yeah.

Yasmeen Serhan

But, yeah, you know, I mean, I think, obviously, I think comedy and satire are quite obviously a luxury in countries where we can – not a luxury, but one would argue a right, part of freedom of speech, but obviously something that we may not see in other parts of the world, simply ‘cause it’s not made to be allowed, much in the same way that, you know, press freedom is often restricted.

I wish I could say I, kind of, had a better knowledge of, kind of, political satire in other countries, but I think what I’m struck by is, you know, how even in, you know, France, which is obviously, you know, a Western country, even a country that I spent some time in, like, I – how it can often be so niche to the country itself. Like, [inaudible – 45:30], like, a satirical – and then, obviously, there’s Charlie Hebdo, which I think we’re all familiar with. I mean, you know, some of the jokes and stuff, you know, I feel like I don’t really understand, but, you know, French people will tell me, you know, like, you know, that it’s a thing that I, kind of, you know – you, kind of, have to culturally understand. It’s, kind of, hard when translated.

As for cartoons that I think cross the line, I mean, admittedly, nothing is coming to the top of my mind, but I mean, Keith, I know you mentioned, like, the, sort of, the, like, The Prophet Muhammad cartoons and stuff like that. I mean, I think those ones are tricky, ‘cause, you know, whilst, you know, I’m Muslim, I’m not offended by them, I’m just, like, whatever, but, you know, I could understand how people would be. And, you know, whilst I don’t think I’d ever – I think it, kind of, comes down to, again, what the intention is. And if the intention is just to rile people up, to be cruel, you know, if it’s something that, you know, makes fun of the Holocaust, God forbid there’d be such a thing, you know, things that are just, like, you know, meant to, sort of, just, like, sort of, antagonise people, I feel like then it, kind of, loses the whole goal of being humorous and funny. You know, I think that the best humour, the best satire is the one that, kind of, packs a punch, ‘cause, you know, even when you hear a joke, like say you’re in a comedy club and, you know, the audience is, like, ooh, it’s like that was a bit much, like, you know. I feel like the best ones – you know, ‘cause those jokes do happen, but I feel like it’s when they hit at a point that’s just true and the audience knows it, or like, oh, yeah, that’s a good point, but, like, I don’t know if I can laugh.

I feel like with, you know, some of those extreme stuff, you’re like, I don’t even – this isn’t funny and, you know, then I just feel like that’s just a matter of comedy, sort of, you know, a joke just flopping.

Keith Burnet

And that’s a good point about timing. Tim, do you have any thoughts on this? And then I’m going to bring in my colleague, James, who might give us a little bit of insight into satire in Russia.

Tim Telling

Oh, sure, I guess the only experience that I have of, you know, of, more, kind of, Eastern comedy was, well, I worked in Ukraine for a period. So, I wrote the – owing to a complicated chain of events, I ended up writing or co-writing the script for the Eurovision Song Contest when it was in Ukraine. So, I spent a couple of months working in Ukraine and, you know, it was quite – we did a few sketches for, not actually for the main Eurovision show, but it was, like, with, kind of, local Comedians that I don’t even know where they ended up. I think they ended up as, like, interstitials on the news or goodness knows what.

But one thing, I didn’t watch a lot of stuff out there, but, certainly, one thing that struck me was how people – how engaged people were and how hungry they were to have – how – well, they were very angry about the way they’d been governed and how keen they were to have a voice. And it seemed like the sen – their – I don’t know, in terms of, like, editorially, it seemed like there was a lot of interference on the bigger things, but there were things, like, kind of, sneaking through, yeah.

Keith Burnet

I guess that’s always happened, censors in, you know, in the States in the 30s, lots of things got snuck through and the UK in the 50s. James, tell us about Ukraine or Russia and…

James Nixey

Okay.

Keith Burnet

…political satire.

James Nixey

Thanks very much for the hospital pass, Keith. Yeah, well, of course, as far as Ukraine is concerned, I would agree with Tim, of course. They – some – one of your previous questions, as Keith said that – mentioned President Zelensky, who is a Stand-Up Comedian who turned semi-straight Actor and appeared in a, sort of, a semi-comedy version of The West Wing in Ukraine and he’s brought in to, and this will sound familiar, to drain a swamp. But the disappointment is, is that he has really failed to do so. That he – the connections with the oligarchs remain the same, there’s been relatively little done on corruption since he took power over a year ago now, and that there’s compromise with Russia in a way in which was not established for the people after the Euromaidan of 2014. So, I think the problem is, and Tim was referring to this, is that they show such promise, they seem such stand-up guys, forgive the pun, and end up being just like all of the rest. That’s the experience so far.

As far as Russia is concerned, it’s a different kettle of worms and, of course, as you will have seen from the recent alleged suspected poisoning of Alexei Navalny, an opposition spokesperson, then this is a very sensitive regime. And you said this yourself, Keith, that the Spitting Image equivalent, called, appropriately enough for Russia, called Dolls, Куклы in Russia, was cancelled, in fact, in 2004. It didn’t take the Putin regime long to realise that this was an unacceptable level of needling.

So, it’s – it doesn’t have a great record in the more totalitarian countries and, of course, their senses of humour are different, there’s a cultural difference there. But it’s – you know, it’s pushed for and it’s done safely, it’s done from exile. It can be done from computers, which can’t be traced, but it doesn’t have that, sort of, level of widespread cultural respectability and pre-eminence that it does here, I suppose.

Keith Burnet

Great, really good insight. Thank you very much, James. Now, I’m starting to get conscious of the time. We probably have about eight minutes left and we have at least another two or three comments. So, I’m going to go to Jon Foster, who is going to ask his question on the microphone. Jon, fire away.

Jon Foster

Hi, thanks Keith and thanks, Yasmeen and Tim. Hi, Tim, I used to be one of Tim’s Writers at The Daily Mash. I was employed there as a…

Keith Burnet

Hi Jon.

Jon Foster

Hi – in a previous career. I wanted to ask about this idea of holding power to account, which is something that, particularly, you, Yasmeen, mentioned as being something that’s – that political satire should do, and that journalism should do, and I feel like this is taken as a truism, but I don’t think that’s actually the case. I don’t think this is what Parliamentary Sketch Writers do, at all. I think that – I mean, I mentioned in my comment that there was this quite, well, semi-viral Chris Morris interview last year, where he referred to a lot of satire, or what passes for political satire these days, as being “just a performance for the court,” as being something that doesn’t really make people in power uncomfortable. It doesn’t really challenge the, sort of, the basis of power or ideology or worldview and I think you can make a strong case that if you can, you know, get around the table with people who have, yeah, like, fairly different views to you and you can still all enjoy Marina Hyde or Trevor Noah, then that, kind of, suggests that there’s not actually a lot that’s really biting in there. There’s not a lot that’s really powerful and it is simply a case of entertainment about politics, rather than anything that tries to do something a bit more, you know, like holding power to account in the ideal sense. Which I suppose, like, to a degree, is similar to what Thea – Tim talked about, in terms of just, like, you know, being antagonistic or making fun of, like, particular, you know, particular individuals or particular groups or particular ideas.

So, I think, do you see this distinction between entertainment and the kind of political purpose of satire and is – like, do you see a distinction and is that a worthwhile and do you have any other thoughts on that? And I’m sorry, that’s an extremely round about question.

Keith Burnet

That’s alright, there’s some good insights there, Jon. So, I will ask Yasmeen and Tim to be brief, so we can get onto the others, as well.

Yasmeen Serhan

Yeah, I mean…

Keith Burnet

So, Yasmeen.

Yasmeen Serhan

…I guess I’ll just quickly say, yeah, thank you for the question, I think it’s a very good one. You know, I agree with you there. I mean, I think that it – with regard to holding power to account, I mean, all the Sketch Writers I spoke to, kind of, really, I think, sort of, listed the idea as, sort of, like, a gold standard. Like this idea that, you know, when something like, you know, say, I’m trying to think of, kind of, a quick example, like, you know, England announce it, or the British Government announcing that masks would be mandatory in England in a few weeks’ time, as the vir – you know, kind of, making jokes around the fact that, like, you know, they were going to delay every important decision by three weeks. Like, I feel like that’s a way of, like, calling out an irony, calling out something that doesn’t really make sense. Like, I think, you know, that’s just an example that, kind of, comes to mind, but I, you know, I don’t think that’s a standard that they, obviously, hit all the time and I think it’s a difficult standard. I mean, I know one Sketch Writer I spoke to, kind of, you know, said that he, kind of, missed the days where, you know, people were talking about taxes on sausage rolls or something like that. I don’t recall such a time, but, you know, I think that there – it’s a difficulty, I think, to, you know, obviously, make politics humorous and to point out the difficult things. And I don’t, you know, necessarily think that Sketch Writers or Comedians can, you know, hit it every time.

But I think a big part of comedy, also, which, you know, doesn’t sound as important as holding power to account, is also just, you know, making politics and news accessible for, you know, for people who, kind of, want to approach it, but also, kind of, want to be entertained, in a way. It’s not, of course, I think, a replacement for journalism and reporting generally, but I think it’s just another way for people to access it and, kind of, get a slightly different perspective.

Keith Burnet

Thank you. Tim, do you have any thoughts?

Tim Telling

Yeah, I mean, I think there is a lot of diversity within satire and I think that there is room for that diversity. And I think there is, you know, there’s an extent to which comedy is – can be taken as pure entertainment and I think that’s valid in itself. There’s an extent to which it can hold power to account, which is very noble, and there’s also an extent to which it serves as a catharsis. It’s – which is, you know, maybe a hybrid of the two. You know, maybe it’s when everything is looking bleak outside, it gives people and outlet, so it, kind of, it lightens their you know, perspective.

Keith Burnet

And I have a question, which I’d – if J. P. Raymond doesn’t mind, I’ll just read it out, ‘cause it’s a short question. Indeed, “Isn’t some of it just racism or prejudice dressed up as comedy?”

Tim Telling

I’m sure it is. I’m sure it is, but…

Keith Burnet

Or odd stereotypes. Actually, J. P., do you want to come in? ‘Cause I mean, that’s my concern when you look at, you know, I know it’s comedy, but it’s Little Britain, which was always, like, based heavily on stereotypes and something. Ah, okay, not at the event anymore. But yeah, based heavily on stereotypes, but because they were seen as new Comedians, rather than the, sort of, 1970s Comedians, it was on the BBC. I actually never quite understood that. I’m going to come to Alex Grigor now and Alex, you have a question, and given the timing, I think we’re going to make this the last question. Alex, hello.

Alex Grigor

Yes.

Keith Burnet

Fire away.

Alex Grigor

Thank you, can you hear me, yeah?

Keith Burnet

Yes, indeed.

Alex Grigor

Perfect. Terrific panel, guys, and really insightful things. I just, I wanted to – and Tim just touched on it briefly just now, but I wanted to draw the, sort of, distinction between the actual act of laughing is shown by a lot of Neuroscientists and things as an involuntary act that we can’t, sort of, pre-progra – we can’t fake it, if you like. And so, it’s often seen as a community building action or reaction to something, to show a collective response to something, which is often, you know, a very powerful tool that Politicians use. You know, if you think of the correspondent – Presidential Correspondents’ Dinner or something in the US, as, sort of, a type of this thing, or any election campaign, equally political jokes could be very dangerous and divisive and doing quite the opposite of othering groups of people or nation states or something like that. And one of the things that we’re seeing increasingly is in interference, if you like, in intellect – in elections, through social media and disinformation campaigns actually often have humorous or comedy, sort of, content as their source of trying to disrupt elections. I’m wondering if you could briefly mention that, sort of, dichotomy of it. Thank you.

Keith Burnet

Thanks, Alex, and, of course, that famous dinner was perhaps the one where Donald Trump was provoked by Barack Obama into running. Okay, Alex, that’s a good question. I’m going to go, first of all, to Yasmeen and then Tim, and if you have anything else that you’d like to say as a wrap up, ‘cause we’re into the – we’re actually at time, but we can run over for a few minutes. Yasmeen?

Yasmeen Serhan

Yeah, no, I think it’s a great question and I, yeah, I mean, I – it’s tricky, isn’t it? ‘Cause I feel like, you know, that Politicians try to be funny. I was just looking up at the Russian – the hockey example, ‘cause I actually wasn’t familiar with it. But I feel like, obviously, you know, there’s – I almost, sort of, feel like sometimes Politicians should just leave the comedy to the Comedians at times. But, yeah, I mean, I think, obviously, you know, I mean, we see the things, obviously, with President Trump and I think, you know, one of the examples you raised about the Pepe the Frog memes, I mean, again, I think it’s, like, all about intention and signalling and what the message is. You know, I think voters are endeared when, you know, Politicians can make jokes. I mean, we see it in the White House Correspondent dinners that we used to have, where, you know, Presidents will, kind of, go up and, you know, just make jokes at their expense. I think, you know, those are widely welcome. But, you know, when you’re making jokes that are, you know, at the expense of an ally or that target certain group of individuals, then I think, obviously, you know, these are people with power and, obviously, a massive audience. So, you know, I think it’s very serious. I mean, I guess that’s, kind of, the short answer to a long question. But it is something that I think is interesting, something to think about, for sure.

Keith Burnet

Good, thanks, Yasmeen, and Tim, you’re going to get the final word.

Tim Telling

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I suppose, yeah, you know, political use of comedy is – there’s a parallel, to my mind, in the use of humour in advertising, which is very prevalent now and it, kind of – I, kind of, feel like when I was a kid, adverts used to be much more straight-faced. It would be like, you know, “Buy crisps,” you know, it would be something that, yeah, would basically be posed that says buy crisps. And now it’s, kind of, like, humour is so ubiquitous in marketing that it’ll be like, you know, buy crisps or the robot frog gets blown up. You know, so it’s, kind of, like – the rea – I guess the reason I mention that is I don’t want to, kind of, digress too much, but I guess you could maybe group those two things as, like, weaponised comedy. You know, it’s like when comedy is used for ill purposes and you – and I, kind of – ‘cause I was – I mentioned the adverts things, ‘cause I’d, kind of, see that and I think oh, I wish you hadn’t done that.

Keith Burnet

You know, that could – and that’s actually really interesting, ‘cause what are the next steps for political satire? And weaponizing comedy from the right might be the next step, but who knows?

Listen, I know a lot of these conversations, we – you know, and sometimes the satire and the state of the world feels like we’re in a, sort of, 1984 novel. But I’m – one of the things that came to mind was not George Orwell, 1984, but Animal Farm and there’s a scene at the end, when the animals are in the farmyard and they’re looking in the farmhouse and they’re looking at the humans and the pigs and you – and they can’t tell the difference and they’re just not sure, you know. And sometimes it feels like we’re a bit like that, what’s reality, what’s satire, what’s news? And I hope that even if we are in that world, at least we still have some comedy and some great Sketch Writers and some entertainment to get us through.

So, I think that’s it, we’re out of questions, we’re out of time. Yasmeen, thank you very much, indeed. Tim, thank you very much, indeed and thank you to everyone who joined us, and we’re going to say – we’re going to close with a thank you and a goodbye.

Tim Telling

Thanks guys.

Yasmeen Serhan

Thank you very much.

Keith Burnet

Thanks.

Tim Telling

Thank you, goodbye.

Yasmeen Serhan

Bye.

Keith Burnet

Cheers.