Alar Karis
…very important to start all these things, and of course, we – as you mentioned already, we came from the Soviet occupation and we wanted to do everything differently, and we started from scratch, and actually, I guess that was a mistake. It’s still not 100%. You have to show up when you get married, but we would…
Hannes Astok
You mean you need to show up in the divorce courts.
Alar Karis
No, not anymore. That’s already linked by e-divorce, but to get married, you have to show up. So, that mean we’re happy in that, and then there is going to be local elections in a week in Estonia, and for curiosity, I’m going to a station to vote, not electronically, but physically being there, just to see what’s going – what’s around, because most of the people actually are voting electronically.
So, we got the government, yes, and the trust of the government and second one was actually banks of the – so we – banks have discussed already and we need trusted banks and because of that, we – it was very – it wasn’t easy, but it was still easier to make this ID card mandatory, because this was a backbone of our digital system. So – and as already mentioned before, I mean, every country’s different, so we can sa – only tell our examples and what we do in Estonia. But every country choose – will choose its own path in this digital world. So, government trust is important, so it has – you have to start from the government, trust to government.
Alex Krasodomski
Well, Hannes, what are those key lessons, those examples that you would bring? If everyone’s different, what are the lessons?
Hannes Astok
Yeah, yeah, I’m Hannes Astok. I’m working for e-Governance Academy, what is a global consultancy organisation about digital transformation for the governments. And what we learned globally is that there should be a leadership from the government. Well, administration could – can provide endless number of great ideas, but without political will and leadership, nothing is happening. We have heard U – and you have heard, probably, about Ukrainian digital transformation during last years and miracles what they have done with their mobile application and how it has actually saved lives during the war. Because people have. through this application, access to where – documents what might be physically destroyed, any kind of data what is available from the government sources, what we can present, either by our internally displaced people in Ukraine or somewhere abroad, what is actually making their life better and even saving the lives.
So, in Ukraine, also, not that much was happening, or was happening in the Government Officials levels, until finally, one Prime Minister, what was Mr Groysman, was coming and saying, “Hi, guys, all you in the government, now everyone has task about digitalisation, about your own ministry or radi – or department.” And then the things started to move and then, the new government and also, President Zelenskyy’s administration, came to power, they take even broader leadership. And now the things started to happen, because Government Officials are very creative. We are especially creative how to say no. We are very creative how to say how we cannot do it, but if you push them and if there is a pressure from the top, then they start – need to start to think how they can do it. And this is the fundamental change in their mindset, so they must mean positively.
So, this is what I see globally, where until the leaders do not pick the phone, or do not pick the flag, not that much is happening. When they do it, miracles may happen.
Alex Krasodomski
So, political leadership is critical, but we also heard about the importance of use cases. This Digital Public Infrastructure has to be useful for something. Now, in the UK we’ve heard a lot about the ID being used as part of the immigration debate, but my understanding is that around the world, Rowan, Digital Public Infrastructure serves a whole array of different purposes, and we’ve heard some of them today, and that’s the case, right?
Rowan Wilkinson
Yeah, I mean, I would say that Estonia is a success story in its digitalisation efforts, but a lot of Western democracies, what we’ve seen more is that digitalisation has been characterised by extremely high costs, very short-term thinking, long-term dependency on foreign service providers and silo projects that result in endless duplication and waste. And the, kind of, alternative thinking and, kind of, the alternative strategy that we’re seeing from the likes of India, Brazil, Estonia and many others, is that we need a Digital Public Infrastructure approach to this, which is often characterised by some, kind of, key principles, one of which is interoperability with other systems. And the ability to for it to build – be bult on top of, but on – adapted as technologies change over time, and also, that – for it to be open and open and enable, kind of, secured sharing of data.
So, I think we need to look to, kind of, the other cases that are doing this, as well, like I’ve said, India and others.
Alex Krasodomski
Really helpful, yeah. My understanding is that there are, even just at a software level, Estonian software packages that are used elsewhere, X-Road being perhaps the most famous one that I know. Maybe there are other ones, as well. We heard at the outset here what I would say is a very high-quality sales pitch, but this is Britain and there is a scepticism about digital IDs. There has been for decades now. There is, I think, a trust deficit here, perhaps building on what Rowan said there about failed technology projects in the past. Mr President, what advice would you – how do we address that trust deficit in this country?
Alar Karis
It’s difficult to say because if these things would have happened now in Estonia, I’m not sure, because we probably would have started the same discussion we – you have here in Great Britain. It’s one thing that means we still have to have these discussions back home as well, although we are already, I mean, used to this, because the questions are still there, we need to answer. But maybe one thing is this government leaderships was mentioned and it’s combining with convenience. What the government did in Estonia, these are so-called ‘once only’, these are – and data minimisation. That means if you are asked one data by government, the government shouldn’t – couldn’t ask this data once more. At least, I can imagine in Britain you can fill in all these forms, different inter – for different ministries and for different agencies and so forth. In Estonia, just once and the data are there and you don’t need to do anything and anything else.
So, this is something which also governments should think about to make it convenient to use, and also not only for citizens, me, as a President, I can fire Ministers at any place in any time in the world. So, I did it once in Germany. I did it once in Germany. I mean, I was on a podium, and I had to fire this Minister, and I used my mobile phone and fired this Minister. So, it’s not that easy because you still have to have some, you know, rules and regulations before that, but you can do it. But in some countries, you can have a digital identity and digital signature, but you are allowed to use it only in this particular country, not abroad. But for Estonians, you can use it, basically, everywhere.
Alex Krasodomski
Is it – is a digital society – I think we’ve heard already about Ukraine here. So, one of the – well, the concerns, actually, I’ve already seen a question come in online about the risks of a digital society.
Alar Karis
Hmmm.
Alex Krasodomski
Are – is it a more – is a digital society more vulnerable than a society that is more analogue, that is more paper-based, or is it, in fact, more resilient? I’d just be interested to know what you think.
Hannes Astok
Depends on point of view.
Alex Krasodomski
Yeah.
Hannes Astok
It’s less vulnerable if a data is well stored, well backed up and stored maybe even, I don’t know, in your embassy somewhere abroad.
Alex Krasodomski
So, that’s quite a…
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
And that’s an Estonian innovation that perhaps…
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…people might not be familiar with. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what…
Hannes Astok
Okay, yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…the Data Embassy is.
Hannes Astok
We are backing up in couple of embassies globally our main databases, just to make sure that if something is happening in Estonia, I don’t know, big explosion or whatever, we have neighbours, also, if you may know, so it’s backed up so we can function as a country and government later, also. So – but if you think about paper archives, any fire, flooding, heavy rain, may destroy the data finally, so without any backups. It’s hard to backup paper data, so this is what may happen.
But I want to come back to this trust issue, and the fundamental question is that, who owns the data? Is it me or is it government? In Estonia, we believe that it’s the citizen who is owning the data and government is just operating with the data, according to rules and regulations what are made by the Parliament. So, this means that I’m handling my personal data for the government. I trust the government, they handle it, but the – it’s not theirs. They cannot decide what they do with it. It’s my and, okay, my Parliamentarians, decision how it’s made. So, in this sense, it’s making of a discussion totally different, because it’s not the government’s data, it’s my data, and I have also access to see who was looking at my data, as Adam just told us. So – and this is making, like, government, and Government Officials, also, much more attentive about it, what they are doing with my data.
Alex Krasodomski
To what extent is Digital Public Infrastructure not just a national project, but an international one? Rowan, perhaps I could start with you on this one, but just a sense of, like – I hear that Estonia is making great strides here and India is also making great strides, as is…
Rowan Wilkinson
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…Brazil and Kenya. To what extent is this part of one effort that we are seeing leadership on across the world, and to what extent is it just, sort of, individual national programmes?
Rowan Wilkinson
Yeah, I think from the G20, so the Indian presidency and then followed by the Brazilian presidency and now, most recently, in the South African presidency, we have seen a focus on, kind of, Digital Public Infrastructure and viewing technology in this way. But I think in contrast to that, we’ve seen a growing, kind of, narrative around tech sovereignty, which has, kind of, a – become a crucial part when talking about technology resilience and security.
So, I think there’s, kind of, two sides to the coin, right? On one hand, you have international efforts trying to use this kind of technology and together, sharing data and providing solutions for one another that can be shared, and at the same time, you have a lot of countries looking inwards, sometimes for good reason, right? How can I protect my citizens’ data? Is it stored locally? Is it stored perhaps in a Data Embassy? And I think that those, kind of – the kind – the tech policies that we’re seeing in the UK, for example, are going to have to really battle with that – those, kind of, key questions.
Alar Karis
And just to mention that you might or might not know that in 2007, we had a cyberattack in Estonia, so we started to take this cybersecurity very seriously. So, it’s as important as digitalisation itself. So, that means we have to work hand-in-hand with cybersecurity issues. So, we learned our lessons and know how to handle the situation.
Alex Krasodomski
Was that something that was felt at a government level or a citizen level? To what extent…?
Hannes Astok
It was definitely the government level, yeah. But citizens were feeling it, because in those days, my online bank was down or okay, national – most of our banks, because of what was the heavy digitals attack to, you know – we’re attacking too much where we cannot survive. So, we were feeling it also, and there was, like, the connections to outer – other countries where the shutdown and many other issues. So, it was, kind of, a lesson to learn, but those attacks in 2007 are not comparable what is happening right now, in this country, in Estonia, everywhere. It was just peanuts, thank you.
Alar Karis
And as far as citizens are concerned, I mean, people started to realise how important to is keep a passport – passwords to yourself, rather than just openly leaving it on the table or something else. So, it’s also a important issue for our citizens.
Alex Krasodomski
Can I ask you to pick up on this idea of the question of what lessons Estonia has as part of this international move towards perhaps great ‘tech sovereignty’, as Rowan put it? Has the conversation changed since, let’s say, the change in The White House, with President Trump and those, sort of – the growing pressure that US tech companies…
Alar Karis
Hmmm hmm.
Alex Krasodomski
…might be feeling when it comes to Europe, or indeed, you know, with what’s happening in Ukraine?
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
The – it’s – as you say, points – led to a really rapid digitalisation in Ukraine through the – its app.
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
Has – how much has changed in 2025 in terms of the lessons that you have for these…
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…countries?
Hannes Astok
Yeah. Starting with Ukraine, actually. Ukraine give up a lot of digital sovereignty when the war starts, because – whereas the only way to survive was to put all their data to the Cloud and – or emigrate with it somehow from the country, physically, because you didn’t know what happens the next day.
Alex Krasodomski
And Hannes, to clarify that Cloud will be an American cloud. It won’t be a Ukrainian…
Hannes Astok
That’s Microsoft…
Alex Krasodomski
…cloud.
Hannes Astok
…Azure, yeah, American one, yeah. So, basically, there was no other option in this point. So – but today, definitely, were the trust towards the American systems is diminishing because as we see that Mr Musk can switch on today Starlink here, as well, and the – it’s, like, really manipulative. It – so, at the same time, it’s clear with small country like Estonia, we cannot invent all the software systems what are available globally, so – or replicate them somehow by ourselves. It’s Mission Impossible, we are doing it badly, probably. So, this is now the discussion, how to balance it, what to do, actually, and what it means by using American technology but maybe keeping it in your country or how to balance it, actually. And it’s against the global trends what we have seen in free worlds, that let’s be global, let’s be dependent from each other. We are all friends, we trust each other. It might be over, and it worked.
Alex Krasodomski
We’ll come to questions in a moment, well, and presumably this conversation about what might have come as a bit of a rude awakening to Europe around its dependencies and its ability to act with, sort of, a sense of sovereignty over its tech, maybe that came, you know, fresh to us, but presumably that’s a conversation that has been happening all over the world for…
Hannes Astok
Hmmm hmm.
Alex Krasodomski
…as long as we can remember when it comes to the internet, right?
Rowan Wilkinson
Yeah, I mean, we would hope that people have been thinking about this for a long time, and I think a lot of people have.
Hannes Astok
Hmmm.
Rowan Wilkinson
I just wanted to pick up one point on the, kind of, privacy and security aspect that’s been brought up, which is that it’s not just a principle, but it has to be in practice. It has to be in the design of the technology itself, and we are seeing a lot of great models that are utilising, kind of, consent management systems to allow the individual, in this case the citizens, to really control who has their data, who has access to it. Is it a third-party provider? Who is that third-party provider? Is it – are they comfortable having their gender shared, for example, or not? Are they comfortable with just having their name shared? And I think those kind of details in the design and how the – in – especially in how the UK implements its new digital ID system, are going to be really important.
Alex Krasodomski
Thanks, Rowan, but – I want to come to the audience in just a moment, so do prepare your questions. I want to come – with one more question, which is that there are folks who I think are sometimes worried about effective digital transformation, when as Rowan says, that digital transformation does not also come with governance. And so, you can imagine that in an – that there would be folks who would be concerned that a highly effective digital government in an authoritarian regime, or in a place that doesn’t have the sufficient, sort of, protections for democratic liberties or governments, people might be concerned, actually, that these kinds of programmes may make those governments more effective. Is that something that is of concern to you? Are there lessons that we should be able to bring? To what extent is – are democratic safeguards part of this digital transformation, or are they one and the same or are they different? Perhaps, Mr President, I’ll turn to you.
Alar Karis
I’m not sure the dictatorships are really keen using digital work, because I mean, it’s also transparency.
Alex Krasodomski
But I think China would definitely disagree, right?
Alar Karis
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
And China are one of the most advanced digital societies.
Alar Karis
I agree, I agree, but still, I mean, it’s transparency and also, it’s anti-corruption, because you see, most of these countries are still corrupt and – but you can’t bribe the computer. That means it’s – you had to really make sure that things are working properly. So, it’s a good question. I even don’t know the answer, to be honest.
Alex Krasodomski
But Hannes, is it the rule of law, is it the design of the software? What is it?
Hannes Astok
It’s – now, digital transformation is very much a cultural issue, I should say. More I’m involved in this, more I believe it’s a cultural issue and each country must find its own way, somehow, not maybe technologically, but how you address it to the general public and also, to the Politicians. We have seen the countries when – where a church is very powerful and until they are either for or against, things are happening or not happening. So, the same is like how far you go with a digital government. We Estonians believe that if a government tells us that “Your driving licence will expire, please go to replace it,” we find it’s absolutely fantastic, because otherwise, I forget about it. But in some societies citizens start to think that it’s not anymore like a Big Brother, it’s like a Big Grandmother or Grandfather, already, who tells you all the time what you need to do next.
So, sometimes probably you need to go step-by-step, or also consider all those cultural issues, what is acceptable for one society or another, or do you need to decide yourself in your society what is acceptable or how to address it actually? How predictive government could be, because, you know, somebody may feel bad, but at the same time, if you are driving without driving licence and you are getting fined for it, then you’re going to blame the government immediately, “Why didn’t you tell me about it’s expired?”
Alex Krasodomski
Hmmm.
Alar Karis
I just wanted to add one thing we haven’t mentioned. It’s – being a former scholar and Professor, so education is important. So, we started, also, with so-called ‘Tiger Leap’, that means every school got a computer in 90s and so forth, and access to internet, that means digital literacy. So, it’s not only for the kids, but also for every people and this is ongoing in process also in Estonia.
Alex Krasodomski
Thank you. Rowan.
Rowan Wilkinson
Yeah, I would just add, as well, like, feedback mechanisms, the con – there needs to a proper consultation process and there need to be opportunities for citizens to feed into how they think the system is working, to ensure that there really is, kind of – the user experience is taken in mind. I would also say clear public avenues for redress, as well. There are often problems with these systems, especially in the offset and there needs to be opportunities for citizens to, whether that’s receive compensation or make sure that they can access their GP, for example. That is just a basic necessity that the state has to meet.
And then, the final thing I would say is there’s this concept of ‘phygital’ as well, right? You can have both the phygita – the physical and the digital together and so, for example, people that don’t have access to the hardware or don’t necessarily know how to use it, still have opportunities to receive their public services.
Alex Krasodomski
Amazing, half an hour talking about technology and nobody’s said AI. I’m incredibly grateful.
Hannes Astok
Okay.
Alex Krasodomski
I’m incredibly grateful to my panel. Let’s open it up. I’m going to start right at the back. I think a microphone will come to you and then we’ll go round, and then I’ll come over here next. We’ll take groups of three. Let us know who you are.
Almat Madaliyev
Hello, my name’s Almat Madaliyev. I’m former Government Member of Kazakhstan, now living here, Partner in a law firm, and just a curiosity question. There was some discussion about the prerequisites of digitalisation if it’s democracy, or there were examples of obvious countries who are less democratic, but still very successful in digitalisation. We all know that democracy is in a decline now and there is certain data to confirm that. My question is probably hypothetical. Imagine…
Alex Krasodomski
Let’s get into the question.
Almat Madaliyev
…in a – yeah, yeah, so in a future, Estonia becomes less democratic, God forbid, authoritarian country. Would you say that all things done in digitalisation, would the country should’ve done everything that it has done for today, or should some things been less digital…
Alex Krasodomski
Understood.
Almat Madaliyev
…if I may?
Alex Krasodomski
Really helpful, thanks. Just over here. Yes, perfect. Oh, behind you and then we’ll come to you, sorry.
Dr Shane Lawrence
Dr Shane Lawrence from University of Cambridge. We’ve had a lot of questions on this issue of trust of data. In the NHS, I’ve been to any number of NHS meetings where it’s been debated how much people will trust the fact that their data is being put in. So, with the – your election data, when you use the cards for the electoral registration, can people be assured that it will be – only be used once there and it’s only used once for their one vote, that it won’t be passed onto anything else?
Alex Krasodomski
Thanks. Okay, the…
Dr Shane Lawrence
Oh, I’m sorry.
Alex Krasodomski
…integrity of the system and then just, yeah, just next to you, as well.
Latika Bourke
Hi, Latika Bourke from The Nightly Australia. I have two questions, I think to the President. Firstly, on e-Estonia, I visited your centre last year, it was really impressive. What is your – how you deal with illegal migration for as much as you have this problem in Estonia? What happens if an illegal migrant comes into the system and they don’t obtain a digital ID, what do you do? And secondly, you would’ve seen Angela Merkel today blame the Baltic states in Poland and frustrating her efforts to negotiate directly with President Putin in 2021. I wondered what your response might be to that. Thank you.
Alex Krasodomski
Brilliant. Okay, I’m going to come back to her – my panel. So, a question there around what happens if the politics of Estonia changes and the society is still digitised. A question around trust and then a question around illegal migration specifically. If you would take whichever one – in whichever order you like.
Alar Karis
I mean, the first one is rather simple, I mean, because we do develop our system all the time. We are not thinking that at some point Estonia is going to be autocratic country, but this is – we do, I mean, because system evolves all the time and we trying to develop it. And actually, I’m going to visit Kazakhstan next month, so it’s a state visit, so I will explain to your people more fully.
And there was also a voting question, which is…
Alex Krasodomski
Yeah.
Alar Karis
…this is one thing which is – in Estonia, we constantly discuss. So – but then again, it’s a system that you go and you vote. You can have different votes. You can change your mind, actually, that means digitally, but your last vote is that you counts. And the second thing is you can go to a ballot station, and this is what counts, if you – it’s a final decision. So, both systems are there. It’s not that you have to choose a digital one. You can also go to – as I mentioned, I am going next week to a polling station and have a look.
Alex Krasodomski
Hannes, yeah.
Hannes Astok
Yeah, just to add that why we can vote many times in online elections and only last vote counts is that the voting environment is unknown or unsecure, we don’t know in what kind of environment I’m voting. So, if I’m voting for Mr President, but you are motivating me with small gun, I can do it, yes, yes, yes, but next – I – after ten minutes, I go separately and vote again, also, for Mr President, like before, I think whatever is my choice, so this is the reason.
About migrants, the idea – or okay, and this is a little bit fundamental question. The question is that every Australian citizen, resident, even asylum seeker, is getting their ID number just to identify this person in every transaction with the government. And this is fundamental, because we want to know that this is the same person in all transactions. I’m getting my ID number from the moment of pirth – birth and it’s following me until the end of life and even later. I’m – or you can get it when you’re registered as a temporary worker or take temporary – whatever in Estonia. But this is just for the purpose to identify. It’s – the number itself is not giving you any rights, but we need to identify the person whenever he’s seeking for asylum, whatever is happening. Government is making many transactions with these people, even if he or she is kicked back after 20 days, but anyway, where we record what happens to him or her, this is important. So, I hope we answered your question.
Alex Krasodomski
Thanks. Alright?
Alar Karis
Just one remark. I mean, in Estonia, you can’t elect me to Parliament, only, so…
Rowan Wilkinson
Oh, so…
Hannes Astok
But I was a Member of Parliament, so I mean…
Alar Karis
That’s correct.
Hannes Astok
…I have history…
Alar Karis
Okay.
Hannes Astok
Not you, but your [inaudible – 27:23].
Alex Krasodomski
Rowan.
Rowan Wilkinson
Just a brief thing to add on the question about data privacy and, kind of, the integrity of the system. One aspect that people often neglect to talk about, especially on panels, ‘cause it’s not particularly glamorous, is procurement, right? A lot of these systems are often put in place in public-private partnerships and, kind of, making sure that there is very strict guidance about, kind of, the safety and security around who is procured for this is going to be crucial and is – and has been crucial in any government that has – it has implemented some form of Digital Public Infrastructure.
Alex Krasodomski
Brilliant. We might pick up on that in a moment. I’m going to take one at the back there, and then we will go to Ed, here in the front.
Meg Curran
Hi, thank you. Meg Curran, law student. I had a question on you mentioned that if you were implementing this today in Estonia, you may face similar queries to what we’re getting in the UK. I was wondering – so, obviously, it would be quite a long-term project in a era of very myopic, short-term political news. How would you engender, or your tips for engendering, some long-termism in government and cross-party support?
Alex Krasodomski
Thanks, Meg, really helpful and we’ll do Ed here in the front.
Edward Lucas
Yeah, hello, I’m Edward Lucas. I am – I just want to give a quick plug for Estonia’s e-Residency, I’m – which is – means that every one of you here in the audience can also have the benefit of…
Hannes Astok
Edward is number one here in the…
Edward Lucas
Yes, I was too modest to say that, but thank you, Hannes.
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Edward Lucas
So – but I’m – but the point I’m – I think you’ve slightly – I mean, you’ve looked a lot at the, sort of, systemic things, but the thing I want to get across is the excitement of actually having a solid digital signature. It reminds me, I mean, lifestone – you know, milestones in life, when you first get a really good padlock when you’re a kid, and a key and you’re looking for something to lock up ‘cause you’ve got a proper padlock, or that moment when you get your first front door key. And it’s the same sort of feel – if you come from this paper-based society and suddenly, you’ve got this ability to send an email that can only have come from you, signed a document and signed in a way that only Hannes can read it, and another one that only the President can read it. And this – the power you get with the private and the public key is quite transformational. It gives you a feeling of life has another dimension.
And I feel that the people who’ve sold the idea in this country have done it a disservice, really, by focusing on what I think is the very marginal thing that it might do something, possibly, to discourage some kind of migration. It’s transformative of government. It’s also transformative of individuals’ relationships with each other and the ability to prove who you are and to prove who other people and abili – individual’s relationship with the rest of society.
Alex Krasodomski
And…
Edward Lucas
What do the panel think of that?
Alex Krasodomski
Thank you, yes. I will give the vibes, they’re good vibes, but I’m going to take one more question online, which is pretty simple. And what is – this is digi – we’re talking about Digital Public Infrastructure here, but my understanding is this is very much also done in partnership with the private sector and enables enterprise and private enterprise. So, a question about ‘long-termism’ there from Meg, how – if we’re going to need political will for more than three years, where do we find it? A question there around the vibes, the excitement, how you – you know, the thrill of it, and then a question around the role of the private sector and, you know, maybe Rowan, we’ll start with you at that end, if you fancy taking one of those.
Rowan Wilkinson
Sure. I mean, just starting first with the question on, kind of, long-term thinking. There’s no easy solution to that problem. This is – these systems need to be maintained over time, they need to be improved over time and then, you need to embed new technology into them to make sure that they’re as efficient as possible for as long as possible. I would just urge all Politicians and Civil Servants looking at this to look at the success stories that we do have, which I think we’ve seen one, at least, today.
On the, kind of, transformative comments that you made, I would agree. I think in India, their digital payment systems have done incredible things for financial inclusion, right, which is not something that we’ve touched on today, giving greater access to people in informal markets, to women, to people in rural communities. There are endless applications of this and I think, yeah, we’ve just, sort of, scratched the surface today.
Alex Krasodomski
Thanks.
Hannes Astok
Yeah, what I have seen in several countries where the – when – where our first fruits could be harvested, the attitude is changing and also, what we have seen in Estonia, when the discussion now is – there is a heavy discussions about digital government in Estonia, but the main question is now to improve it, not to have it or not. And the excitement, what Edward’s just presented, I hope that one day when it’s landing in one or another country, it may change the minds of the Politicians, also, and willingness to continue, not throw away what was done before.
So, people need digital because it’s definitely changing the lifestyle. If I don’t need to go somewhere to sign the contract, if I can sell my car online to another guy without not leaving home, if I do most of my transactions online and not waste my time to go to the government offices, waste my time, pollute environment, it’s changing the life because people really want to do it online. Actually, we – I can buy the ticket for the trip around the world in five minutes from online, so why the hell I cannot send a letter to the government on digital format by digitally signing it, or make simple transactions like it is, I don’t know, sell the car or do whatever I need to do? So, this is the question, actually, so why we are stopping it from our citizens?
And definitely, another question what I wanted to answer, what was coming from online, that is a huge role of banks. We do bank transactions every week, most of us, I think. So, this is something what we really appreciate, we know how it’s functioning and this is keeping our digital activities. It’s top digital activities in most of the countries. In Estonia, banks are using the same digital infrastructure what our governments are using, so the same digital identity. So, I’m using the same credentials, same PIN number, same ecosystem, to log into my bank account and do my transactions. So, this means that I know where – what are my PIN numbers, how to use it and how it’s functioning. And also, in Estonia, the main religion is money, sorry guys, but it is. Sorry, President.
Alar Karis
Is that so? It was true.
Hannes Astok
Yeah, so until my money is in bank and is there by using the same digital ecosystem, I trust it. If it’s gone, I don’t trust, also, the government. I do, every week, some bank transactions. I do transactions with the government, I don’t know, five – maybe maximum ten times per year. So, if you are doing separate systems for the government and for the banks’ identity solution, we probably getting lost. Estonian banks are very happy. They don’t need to develop their own…
Alex Krasodomski
ID.
Hannes Astok
…identification system because it’s provided by our government, it’s trusted by our government. So, they are saving a lot of money. It’s not argument for the public because those Bankers getting another profit from us.
Alex Krasodomski
Hmmm, oh, sure.
Hannes Astok
But actually, it’s win-win situation, very much.
Alar Karis
Of course, one thing which also people get excited, also, in different countries, is that you can easily collect taxes. That means it’s from a government level, that’s – it’s very easy, because with small countries, especially maybe in Africa and some other parts, they have a problem to get money. And the second thing, also, from a, hmmm hmm, from a personal view, it’s very easy to fill in a form. It takes really only two minutes, and it’s done and you get your tax refund very, very quickly and very easily. So, it’s on both sides, and just in some, kind of, advice, yes, it’s a long, long journey, I mean, but you have to start small and just invest on digital skills and inclusions.
Alex Krasodomski
Hmmm, and I’m going to strike a note for the – you know, the UK has done this historically, right? Gov.uk is a very famous example of a piece of British somewhere that was made open source and was then used elsewhere, and I think – so, we can definitely do it. We’ll take three more. Going to start there.
Owen Barder
[Pause] Hi, my name is Owen Barder. Thank you to our visitors for sharing your experience. My question is about the mechanism by which citizens can see who has accessed their data, and I’m trying to imagine if someone announced in the British Government, “Oh, yes, you can go online and see every time someone has accessed your data,” I’m not sure I would instinctively believe that that was true. I’m sure some things would be logged, but I imagine a lot of things wouldn’t be logged. What institutions do you have, or did you need, or would we need, to give citizens confidence that the rights that you say they have, do actually work in practice?
Alex Krasodomski
Great. We’re going to take one there at the back and then here in the front.
Jaroslava Barbieri
Jaroslava Barbieri, I’m a Research Fellow at the Ukraine Forum here at Chatham House. I mean, we aren’t having a digital society. Another thing that Estonia is renowned for in that group of Nordic countries is implementing this whole of society approach to defence. So, I wondered, to what extent this digitalisation has facilitated the implemented of this whole of society approach to defence in Estonia or whether there have been, sort of, parallel processes that ended up, sort of, benefitting each other? Thank you.
Alex Krasodomski
Thank you, and then, lastly, here at the front.
Heather Cover-Kus
Thank you. Heather Cover-Kus from techUK. I wonder what sort of context is needed, what sort of, like, push and pull is needed to get that, sort of, digital society going? ‘Cause a lot of the countries that have found it successful, did they have that, sort of, right combination of just enough problems to make it worth it and enough infrastructure to make it worth it? Is the UK just too just okay, do you know what I mean? Is it too, like, the problems are there but not really? Is it just, like, a bit too comfortable to motivate? And how can a small country, like say The Bahamas, where I’m from, that has a whole lot of problems that can probably be – can be – probably be helped by digital society, is that, sort of, push of infrastructure there? What, sort of, baseline is needed from that point of view?
Alex Krasodomski
So, a question there about if there was one key driver, apart from political will, what would it be? A question around, you know, Estonia’s whole of society defence approach and then this, again, this question coming up about public trust in this system. We’re still not buying it. What do you think?
Alar Karis
Maybe you will…
Alex Krasodomski
Yeah.
Hannes Astok
You can tell about the…
Alar Karis
Well, what’s different for me it’s digital skills. It’s the…
Alex Krasodomski
Hmmm hmm.
Alar Karis
Apart from public trust, it’s – it is important to go forwards. And with – you can easily login and check whether you have – somebody has been there or not. I mean, you don’t need a separate institution on – or anything. So, it’s part of this digital world, so – and Estonia is actually using it, so…
Alex Krasodomski
Can I you just a question for the questioner? When your WhatsApp says that somebody has received your – you know, you get the two blue ticks, do you believe them?
Owen Barder
No, I do, but I could imagine logging into the system and seeing that people have accessed my data, but I don’t – I would want to – sorry, I would want to know whether there is some oversight body or an Auditor or a court or an Ombudsperson or somebody checking that – you know, I could also imagine MI5 would be logging in and looking at my data and would have a private arrangement that that wasn’t logged.
Hannes Astok
I think that…
Owen Barder
And how would I know that that wasn’t there?
Alar Karis
Hmmm, okay.
Hannes Astok
You are…
Alex Krasodomski
Yeah, I would just be interested to know if we’re holding Meta and Google and others…
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…to the same standard. But…
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…Hannes, over to you.
Hannes Astok
Okay, yeah, it’s, basically, you’re going to – you need to log into your national port – national portal and there is a special section what is called ‘Data Tracker’ and you can really take a look, institution by institution, who was using your data. And if you are not confident why they were using it, you can se – immediately send a question that why you were using it, and they must respond to you why they – why – what was the reason? Sometimes you do not understand the complexity of the services, why various datasets from various pieces were used, but they must respond you and explain it to you.
And I think we can even do it better. So, it was also discussed that maybe we send automated notification if someone is using your data, but it might be, like, too much, you’re – it’s, like, becoming a noise, little bit, in some cases. So – but where it’s a data protection agency who is working with it, and if an institution is not responding, you can tell them that “There is no response, so I want to understand what is going on.” So, this is, like, a response of mine.
About the keen – key drivers, basically, it might be different in various countries and sometimes if some services what are so bad in one or another countries are so corrupted, that people really want to have a change and also, and Politicians want to have a change happening, what may drive a change. It might be that the existing government services are so bad, meaning so slow, so bureaucratic, that people really demand the change. At the same time, let – what we have discussed with German colleagues is that the paper-based service they’re so perfect, so fast, so nice, so there is no revolution from the public side because it’s functioning all still as they are. So, no need for massive digitalisation, massive digital government, because paper government is so perfect. Not bad at all, actually.
Alar Karis
Yeah, the usual answer is, “It always been like this,” so this is a signal that you should make some changes, so…
Alex Krasodomski
Rowan, can I come to you on that question, and afterwards, I’d love to come back…
Alar Karis
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…just to finish on the whole of society defence…
Alar Karis
Yeah, sure.
Alex Krasodomski
…versus digital society piece. Yeah, Rowan.
Rowan Wilkinson
Yeah, on the, kind of, question about context and push and pull factors, I mean, we’ve spoken about leadership, long-termism, consensus for change, but the one thing we’ve not perhaps touched on enough is investment. And you mentioned that you’re from a small nation…
Heather Cover-Kus
Yeah.
Rowan Wilkinson
…in the Caribbean. Yeah, I mean a lot of digital solutions are relatively cheap, especially when they’re open source, and you can just finetune the software to suit your context. So, I think that we’ve seen, in a lot of cases, people are drawing on philanthropic support or government support, private investment. You can really, kind of, have a – diversify the investment that you receive for these, kind of, big transformative changes.
Alex Krasodomski
Thanks, Rowan. So, let’s finish up with that question on the relationship between the digital society and the…
Hannes Astok
Hmmm hmm.
Alex Krasodomski
…Estonia’s famous whole of society, sort of, security response. I’d love to hear your views. Like, are those two things…
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
…that run in parallel tracks?
Hannes Astok
Yeah.
Alex Krasodomski
Are they the same – one and the same thing?
Hannes Astok
One of the great narratives what we have and what is actually true, that if you’re online, if you’re doing a lot of transactions online, both with the government, with the banks, between us, like, signing contracts, every Estonian who is digitally saving around two weeks of working time, not just wasting time for printing papers, sending papers, collecting papers, signing papers and all this stuff. So, it’s, like, almost two weeks, because from one transaction you can save, like, ten minutes, so it’s accumulating to two weeks. So, two weeks is around 2% of your working time annually and this is – if you are more productive for 2%, means that our GDP is 2% higher, what we were spending to defence. Now we need to spend 5% so we need to be more digital.
But what is true, actually, and another point from my point of view is the trust, actually, because for also – for – to be, like, one nation to protect your country, you need trust towards the government. If it’s not existing, everyone is – if there is a critical situation, most of the people is just escaping. So – but I believe Estonians are not escaping, but rather, standing up and starting to fight and this is also a trust building exercise, a very broad trust building exercise among the society.
Alex Krasodomski
Thank you. The last word, Mr President, if you have any…
Alar Karis
Well, it’s very difficult to give advice to different countries. Well, one advice probably is that, as mentioned before, it’s you shouldn’t copy what Estonia has done. You just take the best out of this and adjust it to your own country and your own region, so – which is what we always say. So, it’s – and I have seen or it – where it’s extra, we have been, you know, trying – even me, as a President, I try to say to one leader of a country, “You should use this,” and he said, “No, no, we have a different system.” So, you shouldn’t push that you should this because we have this kind of experience. So, every country’s different so – and let’s build up its very own system, because we don’t have to be comparable, I mean, with systems.
Alex Krasodomski
Thank you, and the role that countries can play, not just as rule-makers, critics, cheerleaders for technology, but actually as shapers, builders, architects, not only of national technology, but also international technology governance, is front and foremost – at front of mind, I should say, of a lot of the work that we do here at Chatham House. And in the coming months, you’ll see a report released around what we call Digital Public Infrastructure.
Alar Karis
Hmmm hmm.
Alex Krasodomski
You know, the work that is being done in Estonia, in India and Brazil, and elsewhere, really emphasising the role that states can play in shaping public technology to meet a set of public ends. And I think we’ve heard, collectively, a, sort of, a really compelling piece of storytelling today that I think – well, I hope that we – you will leave today and think actually, that’s another perspective on the Digital Public Infrastructure, digital ID debate, that perhaps we wouldn’t have heard.
So, we’ll leave it at that and the last thing to say is just to say thank you to my incredible panel, to President Karis, and a round of applause, and we’ll be sharing…
