Unlocking the UK’s leadership potential on global goals and climate

Bernice Lee

Well, good day, everybody. A very, very warm welcome from me, who is going to chair the panel for you today. The reason why I’m starting like that is because I’m the only one on the panel you don’t know. So, my name is Bernice Lee. I’m the Hoffman Distinguished Fellow here at Chatham House and had the honour of coming to Chatham House about 15 years ago, at the time when we were on the road to Copenhagen, is what I was going to start with. But more importantly, perhaps with our amazing speakers today, we’re going to have a really good conversation around climate adaptation. We are looking at the question around unlocking UK’s potential in leadership in global goals and climate change.

Obviously, we don’t have to start very far, really. We just have to open a newspaper every day to look at how we are having a bit of global wobble in some ways in different countries around questions on climate action, whether we like it or not. And perhaps it’s not surprising that we are having a wee bit of a wobble because as we move from target setting to implementation and ultimately, we are learning as we are building the bike at the same time, riding the bike while rebuilding the bike at the same time. Which means that it’s not surprising that we get technical and to some extent, political pushbacks.

It is in that context that we are having this discussion today. We have, obviously governments in different ways, politically challenged, especially in election years, to come up with different types of solutions to multiple problems, in addition to the one that we’re talking about today. We have also expectation that because as we see more and more biblical impacts of climate change around the world, that the cost of climate action and climate adaptation will also go up as well, at the same time. So, the question today really for us is, how do we unlock leadership potential, for example, in the UK, around global goals on climate?

Now, our speakers, as I said, doesn’t need any introduction, but of course, it doesn’t mean that I won’t introduce them. Of course, I will. Now, first of all – sitting next to me right now is Secretary Ban Ki-moon, who is the – a Secretary General of the United Nations. He came there as a Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade. He got there around, I’m trying to remember, 2007 and until 2016. And he obviously, was very famous for many things, in addition to having been the custodian of obviously the most important climate change agreement, which was the Paris Agreement in 2015.

As part of my prep, I also read up a lot about him in the past, you know, few years, let’s just say. He, as a boy, got a scholarship to the US and met, for example, JFK at 18 years old in the White House, for example, and we’ll have more stories on the second. Now, we also have Mary Robinson on stage with us today. She is – she was, she’s the Former President of Ireland, the 7th President of Ireland. She was there from 1990 to 97, after which she was the High Commissioner for refugee – for Human Rights in Geneva, as well, from 97 to 2002.

Now, the – as I was reading about the two of them, I noticed many things that they had in common. So, they were born within weeks of each other on the verge of peace back – on the verge of the end of the Second World War, both from countries where peace and conflict co-exist in many respect, even as the world moved into the peace – more peaceful time, at the time back then. I also discovered that they were both married on the same year, for example, and looking to, you know, some sort – a long, steady home life, etc. Which is not something that we always now can say about many of our leaders, as we know.

Now, with that – I mean, the problem with having a conversation that we have like this today is that there are always – every room we walk into now is an elephant room, isn’t it? Every room has loads of elephants, and we all have our topics that are so important to us, thinking that unless we solve my topic first, I can’t solve your problem. So, I’m going to ask our audience today, reminding you that today, the – it is going to be on the record. It is livestreamed, this panel discussion. I’m going to ask you to be respectful of the fact that our two wonderful Elders and this event is very much supported by the Ban Ki-moon Centre for Global Citizens, as well as The Elders, that there are specific topics that our two wonderful speakers will want to focus on.

And of course, we will understand that if you have your elephant you want to bring, we would maybe allow one or two of them, but I would just – to the extent possible, I’ll ask you to respect the context of the discussion today so that we would be having focused conversation and to really be able to come up with some interesting ideas and substances, as well, at the end of which. So, with that in mind, I’m going to bring the first elephant, of course, in the room, maybe to you SG Ban. You know, we – there are so many crisis in the world, aren’t there? So many, every day there’s a different one. Why should we really focus on climate action, still?

Ban Ki-moon

Well, first of all, it’s a great honour for me to be back to Chatham House, but this seems to be my first appearance as a Former Secretary General of the United Nations, and we are meeting during time of global crisis. Lot of conflicts are taking place, particularly in Ukraine and Middle East and elsewhere. And my own country, Korean Peninsula, is also very much threatened by North Korean provocations with nuclear weapons, etc., etc. But my point is that whatever we discuss today has a great implications and great importance because we are here to talk about how we can address rapidly approaching climate phenomena. This will just affect whole aspect – spectrum of our life, our daily life, our politics, economies, etc., etc. Therefore, our decision and discussions today will have far reaching and amplified consequences for all global issues.

Now, as – while working as a Secretary General, I have worked very hard with the passion and compassion to make sure that we make sure that our succeeding generation, including ourselves, should be able to live in peace and harmony and security without being hit by all these natural disasters. That’s why we are coming here. We are coming here to discuss how we can really join our hands together to address the climate issues. This is what I’m going to say, but maybe I – can I go on? I just give one or two – as introductory remarks?

Bernice Lee

Yeah. I mean, I think that it would be great if, Mary, you want to come in on, why do you think we should focus on this? And also, you know, the elephant in the room everywhere is, you know, where’s the money going to come from?

Mary Robinson

Well, before I respond to the questions, since you’ve, sort of, linked us in some way, I just want to add to the description. You said I was UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. I also served for three mandates under then Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on the Great Lakes in Africa, then climate change before Paris, and then in 2016, El Niño and climate. So, he was my boss for three mandates and now he’s my deputy in The Elders.

Ban Ki-moon

And now a new order, of course, now.

Mary Robinson

And not only is he my deputy, but he’s the most supportive deputy. He really likes the fact that there’s a woman chairing The Elders. I think this is a really good example of a man always promoting women, as he did as Secretary General. Anyway, to your question, I don’t think there’s any doubt that the climate and nature crisis should supersede everything else, because it is threatening our very existence, but unfortunately, we’re not putting science where it should be. You know, during COVID, we listened to Chief Medical Officers in every country, and we complied when we were told to mask up and we were told, you know – they were very, very significant in policy of governments. We need, somehow, to have Chief Scientists in every country now to remind us daily of the impacts of climate change, because they’re evident now everywhere.

I came to Climate Justice because they affected the poorest countries first. Poorest countries, poorest communities, small island states, and developing countries and I was very shocked when I was working in Africa to discover that this was the fact, because I had been President of Ireland for seven years and said nothing about climate. I said something about environment, but not climate, because it wasn’t affecting us. When I was working in the UN, I learned it was important, but another part of the UN was dealing with it. I had to learn on the ground in Africa. This was absolutely affecting.

In 2003, 2004, 2005, women were saying to me, “Is God punishing us? We don’t understand. This is outside our experience. We have no rainy seasons anymore. We have flooding when we – then we have drought and sometimes flooding in one part of the country and drought in another part. We’ve never had this before. What is it?” And of course, it was rich countries who had built their economies on fossil fuel causing this problem. So, there’s a justice dimension, which we must also bring out.

Ban Ki-moon

Oh, let me then continue what I was going to say. First of all, we have to mobilise all necessary political will, financial support and technological support to address climate change issues. Climate change has been approaching us much, much faster than we had expected. Then this Earth, Planet Earth, is now on fire. Last year, the Scientists have announced that last year was the hottest year ever since 1850. My current Secretary General, António Guterres, has said that “We are living in a boiling world.” Boiling – we used to say ‘global warming’ and then this global warming has changed to ‘global heating’. Then global heating is now turned into ‘global boiling’. Boiling means at least 100° Celsius. Therefore, we have no time to lose.

Then I think most important and urgent thing is how we can help many poor developing countries who have not contributed much, almost at least contributed to climate phenomena. We have to provide necessary financial support and technological support. This is morality and also that is also political issues, both political and moral responsibility for developed countries, OECD countries, European Union. That’s why we are now gathering here. We must make sure that our succeeding generation will be able to live in peace and harmony and without any threat.

For that matter, there was a decision in 2009 in Copenhagen, the $100 billion, United States, Japan, and European Union proudly announced that we will provide annually $100 billion. Now, we are not – we are no longer talking about $100 billion. Is much, much beyond $100 billion. We have to mobilise – the Adaptation Gap Report suggested that we had to really increase by 18 times what we had previously promised and in terms of moneywise, I think we have to provide at least $1.3 trillion.

This is a huge, but if you calculate $100 billion since 2009 up to now, by this time we should have at least $1.3 trillion. But this GCF, Green Climate Fund, which was established on the basis of this promise, is almost an empty shell. Therefore, I’m just urging European Union, OECD countries, they should really be ready to provide $1.3 trillion for that and also, provide all necessary scientific and technological support. That’s our moral and political responsibility in – anyway. Therefore, we have to do much more for African countries. 60% of African people are engaged in agriculture. Then, without our support, they will not able to follow all this, soon.

Bernice Lee

Given the urgency and the moral imperative, why do you think governments are finding it so difficult to raise the bar when it comes to financing the adaptation?

Ban Ki-moon

Now, I met almost all the leaders, political leaders. They always commit. Secretary General, “I will be fully supporting you, but let me be first, re-elected. Then if I’m not re-elected, I cannot help you. So, let me be first re-elected.” Therefore, it is very hard to continue this kind of a dialogue with political leaders. At this time, there is no time to engage in that kind of discussions. We have to take action first, action first. As I said, at least 18 times more than we had promised, this is what the Scientists and the Economists, they are now asking us to put – to mobilise $1.3 trillion at this time, including with the scientific support.

Let us think, this is morality issues because those developing countries have not much contributed to the climate phenomena. This is all well-to-do countries. They have to be politically and morally responsible. I sincere hope that the leaders of the world, particularly European Union, will really make their firm political commitment.

Bernice Lee

I think we will come into more specifics, as well, later about how the UK particularly, as well, but before we do that, I mean, we heard about global heating, global boiling. We also heard on this stage not long ago, from one of our former – from our former Director, that we are talking about global freezing temperature when it comes to the politics and the geopolitics. So the – another side is that conversation of global boiling versus global freezing when it comes to the geopolitics is putting one very important issue, which both of you perhaps are very familiar with, which is that of importance of multilateralism, at the heart of some of these political strife globally. So, Mary, I thought this is, if I may call you Mary, President Robinson.

Mary Robinson

Please.

Bernice Lee

I’ve had this relationship with President Robinson for years. Every single time I said this, she said, “Just call me Mary,” but if I may, President. Well, given the current challenges around multilateralism and that co-operation is now, it’s not a dirty word. It’s certainly the kind of word people say, “Well, how could you? Are you naive?” How could we treat this agenda for climate ambition and also other types of co-operation on the political agendas?

Mary Robinson

Well, there’s no doubt we are in a very different world. It’s come about partly because of the – in development of countries like China and India and Brazil and the UAE and Saudi Arabia, these countries. It’s much more of a multipolar world now. It’s also a world which has become very aggressively competitive, if I could put it that way, and that is a problem because there’s nothing wrong with competition so long as it’s, you know, competing in that sense. But once it becomes a sense of nationalism prevailing over co-operation and over multilateral co-operation in particular, there’s a problem. And I think the very real issue that we come up against is short-term populist decision-making.

And unfortunately, our world is very geared now to short-term, the impact of social media, the impact of the algorithms that drive us to the aggressive, angry, dark side. I mean, it’s actually very dangerous to our world and I think increasingly, we need to regulate more and then, it impacts on politics. So, we even have Politicians who are finding it so aggressive that they’re contemplating stepping down or are stepping down. Take for example, the Prime Minister of Spain very recently. He has – he took a pause simply because of the harassment of his wife and, you know, I think Politicians are human beings, too. And once it gets to that stage, and why is it getting to that stage? Because of the influence of social media and the populism. These are the short-term shortcuts and they don’t work at a multilateral level and they don’t solve the problems.

The Elders, we’ve focused on three existential threats. The climate and nature crisis, the pandemic crisis, because we’re still not prepared for the next pandemic, and the nuclear weapons crisis. And we also look at how artificial intelligence would affect all three and we call for long-view leadership. We put out an open letter, which was signed by a very significant number of people joining us, which we were very appreciative of. Long-view leadership is compassionate in the sense that it’s leadership which is based on trying to resolve some of these problems by more multilateral co-operation, taking that longer view for this generation, but also future generations.

Secondly, based on evidence and reason, and thirdly, and this is the really compassionate side, listening to how people are affected. Listening to the different ways in which countries or people are affected by different issues. Understanding, sorry, as we failed to do during COVID. I mean, there was such selfishness during COVID because countries prioritised their own national self-interest. We can’t have that again. We really have to learn the lesson and really try.

We’re at the moment, you know, moving on plastics, on a plastics convention. It seems to me it was going much better before the fossil fuel lobby of – which is also involved in petrochemicals, got in, and they’re trying now to slow the process. There’s a perfect example where, you know, the result will not be as good because of the presence around the table of interests which are making their presence felt very significantly, as they have in recent COPs, also, being – conferences on climate being much too present. So, we have to counter these influences, as well as the short-termism of Politicians.

Bernice Lee

Thank you. Very inspiring. I mean, obviously I think we have to have a big tent, as you mentioned, because it’s important that different stakeholders, especially those who are – who are most – who need most, but at the same time, we also need to be very clearheaded about where the specific interests are coming from so that we’re not treating them all as equal, in some sense.

Now, I mean, bearing this in mind and also because SG Ban, you mentioned already the, sort of, importance of European – or leadership from Europe and, you know, again, we started off today and started off most days, really, with news of another country, including the UK and Scotland as well, recently talking about, you know, the need to – for, you know, for all sorts of reasons to, you know, reject, let’s just say, or reframe their climate action. In the UK we had a whole series of questions about also, our international footprint, in many respects, you know. How much are we – do we want to contribute to obviously development aid?

We have a question about the 0.7. We have a question about, you know, how we are 40% off or somewhat, some such numbers around the 11.6 billion that we committed on climate finance, Net Zero, which is – I mean, I don’t know. I only saw the news as I was walking in so I’m less versed than I should be about the court cases today in the UK, as well, that just came in about 15 minutes ago. So, I guess, as per the title of this event, “Unlocking the UK’s Leadership Potential on Global Goals and Climate,” SG, how would you recommend that the UK can unlock its leadership potential at this point?

Ban Ki-moon

Now, first and foremost, including United Kingdom, of course, United Kingdom is one of the seven members of G7, has a huge responsibility. And I have been very – working very closely with political leaders of the United Kingdom. Now, we talked about the financial issues, etc., but at this time, what is most urgent thing needed to do is carbon neutrality. Then European Union is now taking leadership, now. That I really appreciate the European Union is taking leadership role in this matter. Then we must make sure that the carbon neutrality will be – met the target by 2050. That is Net Zero. Before that, as a step – first step, there should be 43% of carbon reduction by 2030.

Many countries have committed to that, but in reality, whether they will be able to cut carbon by 43% by 2030, just six years to go, and by 2050 carbon neutrality, then we will be in a very serious problem. That’s why I am suggesting that, as everybody has been doing, we have to provide necessary financial, technological support to many developing countries. That is number one priority, number one priority.

Then there should be some verification issues, verification issue. That is what COP – successive COP meetings will have to do. They have to sit down together and take all detailed matters. But my experience is that – I hope that Azerbaijan, you know, COP meeting will be a successful one, after that in Brazil, COP 30. My experience as a Secretary General while attending all these COP meeting, if we just – we got COP as a railway station, like, then in some railway stations, you have many passengers and many cargoes are being moved, but in some railway stations, then nothing happens. There are very few passengers riding the train and no cargoes.

I hope Politicians, like – they repeat like this way. Therefore, what is – even though the political leaders are not enjoying much respect from the people, but – and we have to depend upon this, strengthening political leadership by the political leaders. Otherwise, it’ll be very difficult. Of course, there are many civil society and business leaders, but they are easily influenced by political decisions and political leaders. Therefore, I’m really urging political leaders to really make up their mind. The number one priority is climate change issues, number one. Then as a technical follow-up, we have to make sure that carbon neutrality will be met by 2050. It’s very hard and very difficult and challenging issues and that’s why we have to really work together.

I’m working as Chairman currently at Global Centre on Adaptation, which is headquartered in the Netherland. Of course, I’m also a Vice Chair of The Elders. We are using – I’m using all these current positions to speak to the leaders. It’s very important to invest wisely on adaptation. We know that we have to mitigate this carbon neutrality. So, everybody tries to do that, but the world is not yet ready to invest wisely on how to adapt to this changing situation. Our studies shows that if we invest $1, then it may have seven times bigger, you know, result. If we invest wisely and on infrastructures on adaptation, if we invest wisely in water and sanitation and health issues, those are the areas which will affect our lives and affect the political leaders.

Because when there is all this COVID-19 prevailing around the world, then political leaders cannot carry out their leadership as political leaders. Therefore, we have to really work very closely, in a detailed method, first, carbon neutrality by 2050. Then invest wisely in the infrastructures, agriculture, particularly agriculture, and water and sanitations. These the four areas we have to invest wisely as a part of adaptation. So, it is very important to – we wisely adapting to this changing situation, yeah.

Bernice Lee

Thank you. I think that it is very clear, the message, which is obviously, deliver what you promise. Secondly, don’t just talk about cost. I’m going to paraphrase you, talk about investment, because for every dollar spent, for example, on developments reduction, plenty of evidence, every dollar spent is $6 or $7 saved down the line. So, think of it as investment, not just cost and focus on adaptation.

This may be a good time, as well, wow to pivot back to President Robinson, as well. Now, the SG just, obviously, made a strong appeal for the specific things that could happen, but also we know that globally there’s a process around obviously, reframing the climate, you know, the finance related goal, in the form of what is – this could be a mouthful I always find, NCQG, which is the New Collective Quantified Goal this year. But also as this is underway this year, on the way to COP and other vehicles, and we just came out of G7 and Petersburg Dialogue, as well in the climate community, how can governments set ambitious finance goal that really reflect the needs and priorities of developing countries, especially on adaptation, as the SG just urged us?

Mary Robinson

Well, the next COP in Azerbaijan has a particular focus on finance, which is very welcome because we need, as Ban Ki-moon has been telling us, we need to increase very dramatically the finance, starting with this New Collective Quantified Goal. It’s a bit of a mouthful, but it’s to replace the a 100 billion a year with coming up to the 1.8 or 1.3 trillion, which would also include a lot of private investment. Well, you know, I think we need initiatives to help that. We need governments that are prepared to take a stand and to actually, you know, put forward or convene around this before Azerbaijan. It’s always harder if you leave it too late, to get a really good, rounded decision. So, the UK could play a role in convening, for example, around the quantified – a New Collective Quantified Goal.

You mentioned the court decision, which I just heard about on my way from the airport, here today. It’s very good that courts in a country can hold a government accountable and the court has said the Government is not – its plan does not reduce emissions in the way that it should, and they must redraft. That’s all very welcome and it’s important, and climate litigation is going to be increasingly part of how we move things forward. But actually, if you look at what happened at the last COP, COP 28 in Dubai, you know, we got, for the first time, transitioning, you know, just, equitable transitioning from fossil fuel. That is incredibly important. Many of us were looking for stronger language, like phasing out, but the point is the word ‘transitioning’.

So, we need the just transition out of fossil fuel. That costs money. That costs money to the communities, to the workers in coal and oil and gas, etc. And then the just transition into affordable, renewable, accessible clean energy, particularly in developing countries. And that costs money, and that’s not gifts. That’s actually the responsibility, as Ban Ki-moon has been telling us, it’s the responsibility of governments to help re – developing countries to move – to leapfrog into that renewable energy world.

So, finance is extremely important. We also need new forms of finance. We need new taxes. I’m glad that the Brazil Government, which has the G20 this year and will have the COP next year, the very important COP, probably the most important after Paris, next year in 2025, COP 30. We need to tax those who are making millions from what’s harming us, fossil fuel, tax the – more effectively, or tax billionaires, which is another problem, or tax aviation or tax maritime. But make, you know, make steps and progress. Don’t just keep mentioning these as possibilities, which is what’s happening at the moment. Get real about which ones are going to be put forward and get the international support. That’s because we do need new money coming into the climate space for all of these reasons.

Bernice Lee

Brilliant, thank you. So, obviously, turn them into actual financing streams, but with income, not just talk about it. That’s very, very helpful. I suppose, you know, since the last climate push around finance happened around Paris, what about you SG Ban in terms of your vision for this mouthful, that is the NCQF?

Ban Ki-moon

So, I often said that I was honoured and I was very pleased to have been able to bring all the leaders of the world together and join their hands together. That was what I did until my last day of Secretary General. Now it’s in the hands of all – in the political leaders and business leaders and civil society leaders and really, we have to really use all this tripartite partnership. There is no country in this world, however powerful and resourceful one may be, like the United States and the European Union, we cannot do it alone. Therefore, we have to really engage business leaders. Lot of business leaders now with all United Nations influence, then they are very much consciously leading their business through ESG, environmental, social, and governance issues.

Now, then we have to also very well educated, well-trained civil society leaders, I think at this time, rather than political leaders, and so, civil society leaders and also business leaders who are really moving this process, moving this process. That’s what – you know, I’m just asking that the government leaders should be able to speak very closely with business leaders and listen to their problems, what their concerns are and also, particularly civil society leaders.

Then when this tripartite partnerships are firmly united, I think we – it’ll be much, much better and easier for us to push around. That’s what – one big lessons which I have learned during my time as the Secretary General. Therefore, let us use, I think, the power of civil society, as well as the business leaders. Now, business leaders are now ready, then government leaders really try to make all these systems, legal systems which really help, which will really help the business leaders so that they can do without any political constraint. That’s what I think we have to do much more.

In that regard, European Union is in a unique position, which really can – can really move this campaign together. Now, there are so many regional conflicts. United States, because of this Middle East issues, while they’re providing $60 or $70 billion to Israel and Ukraine, all this money should have been used for our action, climate action. Therefore, first of all, we have to make sure that we really try to resolve, at the level of political leaders, all regional conflicts which really attracts attention, political attention and resources available. It’s just a waste of money. When this money goes to Ukraine and Gaza and elsewhere, it will just last a few days, few days, several billion dollars.

But if we use all this just make sure that the Farmers can really invest climate-friendly farmings, so, we have to really make sure that political leaders, they should focus more on climate issues, natural issues. That’s my really urgent call and I think all our leaders from civil society and academic and business community, you should also raise and challenge, challenge the leaders. I’m – I’ve been open speaking to many young people, “Raise your voices and challenge your leaders.” I think you should challenge your leaders and raise your voice. So, government cannot do it alone and UN cannot do it alone. That’s why we need some solidarity and partnership here.

Bernice Lee

Well, thank you. So, very strong call for opening the space for different types of leaderships, unleashing their power, but also don’t let the urgent, such as a war, forget – this is going to make you forget about other also equally important issues, which include, for example, providing for livelihoods and others, investing in the longer term. I mean, maybe this is a good place to come back to you as well, President Robinson, about this is some of the lessons that SG Ban just mentioned. Do you – is this challenge with you when it comes to thinking through what lessons have we learned, really, when it comes to creating global goals and deliveries?

Mary Robinson

Yeah, there is a problem, as Ban Ki-moon has already mentioned, of governments making commitments, but the problem is implementation or, you know, actually having in place the necessary ways of assessing and monitoring and being accountable. And that’s where we’re very weak in the climate space. We’re getting better. In many ways, I’m a very strong believer in the kind of coalitions that Ban Ki-moon was talking about. I also hope that women leaders would play a very significant role in this and we’re seeing women leaders mobilising much more.

Because, you know, we talk about the problem of climate as being a problem – an all of government problem for every government, which it is. It’s not just one department of the environment. It’s the all of government. It’s the finance, it’s health, it’s all of the issues, food security, etc. But it’s all of society, it’s all of community and it’s all – and that’s why we need the broader civil society business, indigenous communities, young people, women leaders, philanthropists, Farmers, Scientists, Filmmakers to make the point in a much more positive way. We actually need a positive narrative because that energises people. And the positive narrative is that we are on the cusp of a wonderful, clean energy, safer, healthier, fairer world. We’re moving in that direction. We’re actually moving a bit faster because, you know, renewable energy has become cheaper, battery retention is better. We’ve got green hydrogen coming on stream, lots of other innovative ideas, etc. So, we’re moving a bit faster, but we’re not moving nearly fast enough for the science, and what’s holding us back?

What’s holding us back is misuse of money globally. Do you know the figure which The B Team of business leaders, which I belong to, has come up with about what we – the amount we are spending on what is harming us every year? $1.8 trillion a year on what is harming us. Fossil fuel and bad use of agriculture and other land uses. So, if we switch even a proportion of that money, we can do the things we’re talking about. We can afford to have the transition out of fossil fuel and the transition into accessible, affordable, clean energy for all. Which means the 600 million in Africa that never switched the switch for electricity, the 900 million women who cook on dirty cooking, all of that can be the solution and that will make for a much better, fairer, safer, and far healthier world.

Bernice Lee

Great, and, you know, also very clear, stop subsidising things that are dirty and spend it all – investing wisely. Stop wasting it unless – well, stop wasting it full stop, really.

Mary Robinson

Not just wasting it. It’s subsidising what’s harming us.

Bernice Lee

Yeah, exactly.

Mary Robinson

It’s crazy.

Bernice Lee

Exactly, and it is a form of waste, therefore. I mean, I just realised as I was listening to you both, that my colleagues are going to kill me for not mentioning that if you – when you tweet, you should have the hashtag and stuff. I think you should be able to see it, but perhaps what – in fact, I just realised that you’ll – probably I’ll be killed later, by the way, by my colleagues. But also, we are going to open to our very full room here, but also very full online, many, many questions of some 500 plus that we expect, or more. Couple of thousands or so are sending questions in fast and furious. So, I’m going to do that in exactly about one minute. Well, to give you time to think before we turn to our very esteemed audience and very, very highly raised hands.

Member

Yes.

Bernice Lee

You see, you see. Very enthusiastic, too. What do you – we talked a lot about what you want to see. What are you most worried about at the moment?

Mary Robinson

I think what I’m most worried about is that we’re not taking seriously the science. I happen to be a guardian of the ‘planetary boundaries’, the work of Johan Rockström and a number of us are now guardians to promote that work. We’re in the red, basically, on six of the nine planetary boundaries. The only one that we’ve managed to reverse is the ozone layer with the Montreal Protocol and refinements of it. So, we can, but we’re not at the moment making this the priority that The Elders want the world to understand and do it on the basis of science.

Ban Ki-moon

Yeah, let me just add one thing which I forgot. One, in democratic societies, there should be elections to elect representatives or President or Prime Minister. But as I understand, this year there are at least a minimum, 64 countries are taking their national election, whatever the case is. Because of that, all these discussions on climate has almost been silenced. As I said, the Politicians, their first priority is to get elected. That’s very sad. Korean Government, there was a general election last month. I have not seen anything about climate from the candidates for general election. Likewise, in the United States, very important presidential election is now going on. I don’t think there’s much talk about climate issues.

They’re all talking about political – domestic, political issues. They’re much, much more focusing on domestic, economic or some other issues. Therefore, I’m very much concerned. While we don’t have – you know, while political leaders are not much respected, but without their support, without their leadership, this cannot be carried on. Therefore, it depends upon you as a – you know, and since you all have voting rights, then you should make sure that and challenge your leaders. That’s my really honest call to you.

Bernice Lee

Great. Choose wisely, all of us, with all these elections. So, I’ve – I’m going to take three questions. When I call on you, sit down where you are, a microphone will come to you. Please introduce yourself very briefly. I’m talking about one sentence of about three words introduction and go straight to the question. And again, I’m going to ask all of you to be respectful of what our esteemed panel want to talk about, bearing in mind that you all have your own piece of the puzzle you want to bring. Now, I’m going to take three questions. The first over there in the middle, and then one at the front, the person in purple, and then the person next to her, at the same time. So, this – yeah, the first in the middle. Thank you.

Dr Isaiah Mustafa

Thank you so much. I’m Dr Isaiah [inaudible – 50:26] Mustafa, a Lecturer at the Canterbury Christ Church University in Stratford and a Consultant Host. Thank you so much, Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and Former President of Ireland. My issue is very clear. I’m so happy we seeing new people here. You are so passionate about Africa and from your message, the last statement you just made, my question has been answered partially. Why is it that most of the developing countries, the Global South has the money while – sorry, the Global North has the money, while the Global South is always the issue, the poor husband or the poor wife?

And what do you think these petrostates, whereby they prioritise economic growth over climate change agenda or adaptation, what will be your take on this to find a resolution for Africa and the Global South? How you can have a peaceful war so that our children will enjoy better than we do. Thank you so much. That’s my question because in Africa, most of the issue is about gas, is about food, poverty, hunger, conflict and so much and so forth. Thank you.

Bernice Lee

I think the SG wants to take this on, even though I want to take three questions. So, would you like to take the other two, or shall we – you want to jump into this quite meaty one, I think?

Mary Robinson

Yeah, it’s up to you as…

Bernice Lee

Yeah, SG.

Ban Ki-moon

Yes. First of all, thank you very much for raising this issue. For Global South, I think the leaders of the Global North have a political and moral responsibility to help. That’s what I have already stated at the beginning of my remarks. They have not contributing much, but it is African people and African continent where all this impact of climate phenomena is now causing. That’s why we have to provide all these necessary fundings. As I said, 60% of African people are now engaged in farming, I mean, agriculture, now, when there is no rain, when there’s no fertilizers and they have only manpower without anything. So, that’s why we have to provide necessary funding. Now, there is – when it comes to agriculture, there is CGIAR, comprehensive international – CGIAR…

Bernice Lee

Consultative Group…

Ban Ki-moon

…really supporting this and we need to really provide – there is some discussions are going on, what is known as New Collective Quantified Goal, NCQG. I think this is something which really try to mobilise necessary resources and the financial or technological, whatever it may be, that provide necessary support to Global South. And there are many small island developing states who has only been affected by these rising sea levels with all this global temperature going on and sea level is rising. The Scientists warn that by the end of this century, 2100, the sea level will rise minimum 60 centimetres to 1.5 metres.

I, myself, travelled to many small island developing state, like including Kiribati. Kiribati, because the island has now been sinking, they have purchased the land to move the country, whole country. So, they bought land in Fiji. This is a fact now. Then, I think this is a moral, as well as political issues. Now, all necessary fundings should be given to African Farmers. As I said, 60% of African people are engaging in agriculture. They’re just looking to the sky when there should be a rain, but we have to provide all support. That’s what I’m really emphasising again. Thank you, again.

Bernice Lee

President?

Mary Robinson

Maybe briefly to agree with Ban Ki-moon about the importance of farming for Africa and the need to have much more adaptation funding to support very good regenerative farming, if I could put it that way. But I’m actually very impressed by the way that so many Africans are now redefining their continent and rightly so. It’s a continent with a great young population. It has some of the great forests of the world. It has the rare earths. The problem is the illicit flow of funding out of Africa. It could be a much richer country if it wasn’t the corruption and illicit flow of funding, but there are many young Africans in particular, who are talking about their continent in very positive terms, which I think is to be encouraged.

And that Special Climate Conference in Nairobi last year was a very good example. I mean, a really good example of a very different approach, which I think is far more likely to energise people to work – to bring this about. And we know that some of the rare earths are in countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo and that has its own problems, and they have to be addressed. The human rights problems and the child labour problems have to be addressed.

Bernice Lee

Thank you, and also a great reminder that we can’t give into, sometimes, easy assumptions about what country of different economic level should or shouldn’t want and it’s up to them to define what they are, really. Now, let’s go back to, hopefully, my system of three questions and then – don’t answer them. Well, let’s listen to all three of them and we can come back in a second. So, let’s do these two. Very quick question, as well.

Johanna Zuleta

Thank you very much and for the excellent moderation. My name is Johanna Zuleta and I’m a Cross-pollinator between policymakers, the corporate world and arts and culture. I have one question for Ban Ki-moon and one for Mary. For Ban Ki-moon, I’m very happy to follow up from the previous one because it has to do with agriculture. How do you see the environment in your spheres of policymaking, moving into a small farming support and how can the general public also support more of that? So, not only in Africa, but in Europe as well, in other places and continents, how can we move more to support small farming? And how do you see that moving in policymaking?

And to Mary, regarding The Elders, how are you bringing the intergenerational engagement? Are there any initiatives happening in The Elders that are also connecting with youngsters and the new generation? Thank you.

Bernice Lee

Let’s park those two. Small farming, intergenerational.

Member

It will be very short, a question to a pair of you. The question one. Mr Ban Ki-moon, which leader has impressed you to be sincerely honest, to deal with this climate problem of the world? And secondly, what The Elders really have to impose on the world leaders?

Bernice Lee

Impose, did you say?

Member

I mean, the purpose of The Elders, what can you do to impose your wishes on the world leaders?

Bernice Lee

Let’s take one more, the – maybe immediately behind.

Pyotr Kurzin

Thank you. Pyotr Kurzin, Carbon Tracker Initiative, formerly the UN and host of the Global Gambit Podcast. Firstly, I want to say it’s great honour to meet both of you and Mary, I have had the opportunity to listen to you before, as wise words as ever. My question is quite simple. Climate security is not discussed enough in this whole paradigm and one of the things it does is exacerbate existing instabilities in fragile areas. And what does that do? Leads to a greater divergence between men and women. And one of the things that The Economist has come out with is this greater divergence across the world between men’s vision of issues, becoming more populist and women’s, which is more progressive and aware of the, sort of, holistic need for collective action. So, if you have any thoughts on those themes of deepening securitisation and also, the divergence of agendas. Thank you.

Bernice Lee

Thank you. So, we have three questions and I’m going to let you guys choose how you want to – which one you want to attack first or not. You don’t have to answer all of them, obviously. One on small farmer, one on intergenerational, I suppose, impact and movements. How do you bring them together? And last but certainly not least, the question of securitisation and therefore, diversions, men and women, and the question of women leadership at the heart of this. So, maybe I’ll come to you first, maybe Mary, if I may.

Mary Robinson

Okay.

Bernice Lee

You can choose which one you want to answer.

Mary Robinson

Yeah, well, I’ll leave the small farming to Ban Ki-moon because he’s already referenced this significantly for Africa. We are very aware of the importance as Elders of taking part in intergenerational conversation and actually, we love it because we learn from it. If you go into the website of The Elders, theelders.org, you’ll see we have blogs of young climate activists. We have convened young intergenerational meetings. You know, we never go anywhere. We’d be in Brazil and we’ll have conversation – intergenerational conversations there at the end of May, and it’s because the world is different from the perspective of a young person and the perspective of an elder and we learn so much. Young people are very socially connected. They care about the injustice and the justice issues very significantly and those who are involved in climate action.

So, I just wanted to answer – and then maybe if I could just take the climate security and maybe Ban Ki-moon will want to speak on this, too. I really very much agree that climate exacerbates, in particular, the desperate situation in conflict affected countries and that already suffer from great humanitarian problems. Places like Sudan, I mean, it’s just really, really hard to say, other than we’re in the worst of worst situations, with less funding and more crisis exacerbated by the climate crisis, by the climate and nature crisis. So, we need to address this and it’s part of the reason why women leaders are beginning to step up.

We have a project that I can’t talk about now, but if you Google it, called Project Dandelion, and I wear the dandelion. And this is bringing together a broad-based inclusive movement, basically, based on climate justice and it’s trying to say, you know, we are moving. There are a great many people working hard to move us in the right direction, but we’re not connected. So, we need to connect the indigenous leaders, the young people, the entrepreneurs, the grassroots women, the business that’s on the right side of this and there’s a lot of business on the right side of this. The philanthropy, the Scientists, the Farmers, and the Artists, the Filmmakers.

If we grow our power, we’ll somehow be able to stop the money going in the wrong direction, the powerful fossil fuel lobby. Do you know what the fossil fuel lobby spends every year on misrepresentation, you know, communication from their point of view, which is telling a different story, $4 billion a year. Who’s spending the $4 billion on the positive side? No-one. We need to grow our power. So, I really feel – and we start with the most vulnerable. We start with the, you know, the fact that it is exacerbating the humanitarian crises around the world and making them almost, you know, beyond our capacity to deal with, which is terrible. And of course, it’s women who suffer by far the most, in those situations. Sorry, I got a bit caught up in that, sorry.

Bernice Lee

No, that’s brilliant. But also I think that, you know, SG Ban as well, you’ll tackle the question of small Farmers, but perhaps also the question of – I, kind of, like the way you asked them, but I’m going to reframe it, what can The Elders impose on the leaders? Perhaps what wisdom can you impart on them, or how can you impose on them, is a slightly different way of putting perhaps the same thing.

Ban Ki-moon

Now, about the agriculture and adaptation. As I told you that I am working as a Chairman of the Global Centre on Adaptation. We have taken an initiative, a programme, what is known as triple AP, AAAP, working very closely with the African Union Development Bank and African Union now. This is African Agricultural Adaptation Programme. We are now trying to mobilise at least $25 billion in just five years. And African Union and IMF and African Development Bank, they are very closely co-ordinating with us. So, we will try to that.

Then investing wisely in agriculture, particularly, you should have climate resilient seed. How to have a seed which is very resilient to these weather conditions. These are something which I have been working very closely with the African Union, African Development Bank, and IMF, and World Bank. So, even though it has not been much materialised, I think we are in the very good process on this matter.

Now, another – these are something about small holder Farmers, small holder Farmers. So, we have to really support them. And as I said, my, again, foundation, Ban Ki-moon Centre for Global Citizens, is also working very closely inviting African – young African people and working closely with the Austrian Government, we really try to educate and train them so that they can be the leaders in campaigning against these climate change issues. So, even though this is not such a big scale as European Union and those, but I am doing my best efforts to help African Farmers. I think we have to support this 60% of African people who are engaging in global farming, yeah.

Mary Robinson

I thought maybe I should answer the question about, you know, how do The Elders try to get our voice across? We don’t have any big stick. We are elders. We are charged by Nelson Mandela, when he brought us together in 2007, to carry on his legacy of working for peace, working for human rights, working for a sustainable planet. We do have a moral voice and we do speak out sometimes. A lot of our work is quiet diplomacy, but we do speak out. For example, I think we’re making some governments quite uncomfortable with statements on Gaza recently and we’ve got a very big following for what we’ve said on Gaza. Because there are double standards and what’s happening is not acceptable, and we do need a ceasefire and we need it now and we need to get the hostages released, but we also need to deal with the humanitarian terrible situation in Gaza. The Elders have been very clear and very principled on that and I think people appreciate it.

Bernice Lee

I mean, obviously, you both have so much to say and it pains me to say that we have to come to an end at some point, but I thought before we do and having looked at the, really, what I could only describe as a million questions online coming through. Most of them are about how we do things, but also very specifically for the next Prime Minister of this country, I think my friend Ed Davey asked a question from World Resources Institute, I feel compelled to ask from the online, which is, “What is the one piece of advice you would give the future Prime Minister of this country when it comes to really doing something big on this agenda?” Quick one piece of advice. SG?

Ban Ki-moon

As I said, please do not expect your own leaders because they have their limitations. So, you also should take your own leadership, whatever professions you are having. So, be ready to speak out what you need, what your concerns are, then let the political leaders hear. Now, with all these 64 countries now engaging in politics and you mentioned about the security issues now, this world is not peaceful at all here and there. Even my home country, Korea is not peaceful because of North Korean provocations. Now, what is now happening in Ukraine is illegal Russian aggression against Ukraine. This really takes whole resources, money, money and also, political will. The leaders are much more focused on this one, big leaders like European Union and particularly United States.

Therefore, we have to really take your strong stance and your voice to speak out to the political leaders that they should do much more focusing on this. When this, our Planet Earth is not sustainable, then what’s the use of having all this election or whatever? You cannot have a science and technology development, etc. So, therefore, we must make sure that we are living in a sustainable – economically and socially sustainable way. That’s our target, yeah.

Bernice Lee

Alright.

Mary Robinson

Well, I think I’m going to answer in a light-hearted way because it’s not a question I really think I should be answering, but I’ll answer it in a light-hearted way. I would ask the new Prime Minister just not to take decisions that are going to impact badly on my country, like, for example, Brexit and boats to Rwanda, you know, anyway.

Bernice Lee

Well, this is absolutely brilliant. I think we’ve heard very passionate calls for – I – in my head, I kept thinking about the three kinds of investments we need to make. Investing in new types of leadership and voices, investing in the youth, but also investing in the future in such a way that stop us from wasting money in things that we don’t think we need anymore, in fact, that will do – that will make things worse. So, I’m, kind of, very inspired by this conversation and really, really thank you for an excellent audience of captive – as you can tell here. And if you would actually also very kindly actually join me, as well, our great audience, in thanking our great speakers today. Thank you [applause].