Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, just checking my volume’s on here. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Chatham House. I was saying yesterday, “Welcome back to Chatham House,” and I think I’m going to use that phraseology once again. Fantastic to have you with us in the room, those who are joining us here in person, and very excited to have those of us joining online. This is a bit of the reality of Chatham House meetings from now on, and I think one of the great – well, the positive outcomes, I would say, at least, of this pandemic is that we’ve been able to connect with audiences simultaneously, not just here, and not just in the UK as much as we do, but really internationally. And great to be doing this as we come to the end of our centenary year, which, as I said, as we gave one of the other awards yesterday evening of our Centennial Awards, we’ve stretched through into the middle of 2021, and maybe even a little bit beyond that, having been founded in 1920, and therefore celebrating our centenary last year.
And it’s my special pleasure to welcome, and we’ll be organising the evening a little bit around her, so I’m just going to say some opening words of welcome to Melina Abdullah. Fantastic to have you with us here, Co-Founder of Black Lives Matter movement, Los Angeles, Co-Director of the Black Lives Matter Grassroots movement, as well. Fantastic that you could be with us here today and that you would give us the opportunity for us to celebrate your achievements and that of the movement that you represent, which is the winner of this special Centenary Award that Chatham House has ascribed for Diversity Champions. And we have three sets of awards that we’ve done for our centenary, and what makes these awards especially important I think this year is that unlike our Chatham House Prize Awards, which were nominated and chosen by our members, these are awards that are given by our staff. And it’s the staff that carry the spirit of Chatham House right now through our centenary that have had the opportunity to put together a list of names and then pick those that they want to win, and I think being able to carry that spirit and capture the priorities and the, kind of, view of the world that our staff kindly represent is especially important.
We will have a chance, in a minute, as we go through the panel today, to talk about Black Lives Matter, its role, and not just in the United States, but globally, as well, as an International Affairs Institute. This is a dimension that we find especially important and I’m delighted that we’ll be able to have an especially interesting, I think, panel, and I’ll be telling you how you can all participate in that in a minute.
What we’re going to be doing here in a minute is introducing the award through my colleague and Ambassador of the US and Americas Programme, who’ll be saying some words. After I’ve welcomed her to the stage, Melina, we’ll turn to you to give your acceptance speech. We’ll then have a panel with the Q&A, so this is a little different from yesterday evening, where we were so pleased to be able to celebrate the award of the Lifetime Centenary Award to David Attenborough. We’re flipping the programme a little bit around here to be able to hear first from Melina and then do the panel subsequently.
What I want to remind you, all of those who are joining us here, this meeting, although we’re in Chatham House, is not under the Chatham House Rule. It is on the record, it’s being recorded, you can tweet away with whatever hashtags you want, but ours is #CHEvents. For those of you online, please give us your questions. We didn’t have much time to get to them yesterday, but we’ve got a full time here to an hour and a quarter to 6:15 UK time here in London. So, please submit your questions through the Q&A function, not through the chat, which is disabled, and we’ll give you an opportunity to ask your questions, as well, if you want to be unmuted, if you don’t please let us know. I should be looking at the cameras as I say this. And for those of you here in the room, please remember just to raise your hand, wait for the mic to be brought to you, you can then take off your mask, ask the question, put your mask back on again, and we’ll be able to do the whole thing.
At the end of this event, I’m very pleased to say that we have a photographic exhibition, a special exhibition taking place upstairs. It marks obviously the event this evening, but also marks Black History Month taking place this month here in the UK. It’s an exhibition put together by Neil Kenlock, who I think is joining us here this evening, timing perfectly done, Neil, for you to come in right now. Neil, born in Jamaica, travelled to London in the 1960s, part of the Windrush generation, as they’re now known, a legacy Photographer, acknowledging being part of the Black experience of the United – here in the United Kingdom, part of capturing and recording the history of black communities, their role in their communities, in business, and in the civil society movements that are created here. And, as I say, this exhibition was created by his daughter, Amelia, I hope is with us, as well. Hi, Amelia, great to have you with us. So come up and have the drinks afterwards, and it’s a fantastic exhibition, which I’ve just seen up there in our Neill Malcolm Room.
So, what I’m going to do now is again say, as we have a few more people joining us, both online and here, welcome again, Melina, great to be having the opportunity to welcome you as the award winner of our Centenary Award on Championing Diversity. And what I’m going to do now, as I said, this is an award chosen by our staff members, turn to Anar Bata, one of our staff members, part of our US Americas Programme, over to you, Anar, to kick us off.
Anar Bata
Hello, everyone. On behalf of Chatham House, I am delighted to present this award to Black Lives Matter in recognition of the work the movement has done in bringing global attention towards systemic injustice against Black lives and for working towards building a better, more inclusive world. Professor Melina Abdullah, one of the original group organisers of Black Lives Matter, Co-Founder of the Los Angeles Chapter, and Co-Director of Black Lives Matter Grassroots, is here to accept the award on behalf of the organisation [applause].
Melina Abdullah
So, I always begin by taking a deep breath in, so I’m going to ask you to join me in taking a deep breath in, and to breathe out, and that was for me, not for you. I’m deeply honoured to have been invited here. I’m deeply honoured to be allowed to speak on behalf of this beautiful movement that has developed, and I’m deeply honoured, we’re all deeply honoured, to be receiving this award. We know that 100 years ago, Black folks, who are unabashed in our commitment to Black radical movement, would not be receiving the Chatham House Award. But here we are, and we’re receiving the Chatham House Award, and that says something about where we’re moving this world.
And I’d like to just open my remarks in the names of many of those who are moving us forward. I’d like to open my remarks in the name of Redel Jones, in the name of Wakiesha Wilson, in the name of Mike Brown Junior, in the name of Andrew Joseph III, whose family is here with us. I’d like to open in the name of Mzee Mohammed, who was killed here, of Joy Gardner. I’d like us to remember that their spirits, the thousands of Black people who are murdered by states all over the world provide spirit, which charges this movement. Black Lives Matter is absolutely a Black radical movement that seeks to inherit the spirit of those abolitionists movements like the ones led by Mama Harriet Tubman, and Sojourner Truth, and Ida B Wells, who travelled to the United Kingdom before us, looking for anti-lynching support. We, too, travel here, looking for support for our current anti-lynching movement.
So, we come here as a Black radical movement that inherits that history, that summons the spirit of Martin Luther King, that summons the spirit of Malcolm X, that summons the spirit of Paul Robeson and Kwame Nkrumah and Kwame Toure and all of those who’ve walked before us, and recognises that we’re not just a movement on the ground, we’re also a spiritual movement that is charged by those whose bodies have been stolen by states all around the globe. Not just in the United States, but here in the UK. And we’re charged by their spirits, and we open in their names, and we pray that the work that we do gives them honour.
We stand in a moment when the world has been cracked wide open. Many of you have lended your bodies, lent your bodies, to what has become the largest movement in racial and social justice history. There have been millions of folks all around the globe who have stood up and have declared Black Lives Matter, who’ve followed and, you know, lent your support, lent your voices, to movements that have been led right here by people like Kayza Rose of BLM UK, and so we’re so grateful that Kayza is joining us here. You’ve lent your bodies, you’ve said, “Black Lives Matter.” You’ve recognised that the theft of George Floyd’s life, that the theft of Breonna Taylor’s life, the theft of Ahmaud Arbury’s life, is a moment when the world has cracked wide open and it calls us in to do work on their behalf.
But sometimes what happens, as we say names like George Floyd from cities like London, we forget that George Floyd wasn’t alone. That as we say George Floyd, we also must say Mzee Mohammed, right? As we say George Floyd, you also must learn the name Wakiesha Wilson, you also must learn the name Fred Williams, whose angelversary is coming up this weekend, right? You must learn all of these names and recognise that there is no such thing as a Black Lives Matter moment. There’s only an ongoing movement for justice, Black liberation, and Black freedom, and all of us have been called into this work. This has become our sacred duty.
When we say the world has cracked wide open, now I’ll confess that I watch a little TV, not a lot of it, but a little of it, and my favourite television show, I don’t know if you get it here, is a show called Lovecraft Country, which was on HBO. It’s based on a book series, and in that series, there’s a moment of racial reckoning that’s inspired by the theft of Emmett Till’s life. Some of you will remember Emmett Till was a 14-year-old boy, whose life was stolen by white supremacy in 1955, and his body was found at the bottom of a river, and his mother, Mamie Till, decided that she would make Emmett’s life mean something by exposing to the world the horror that had happened to her son.
I think of Deanna Joseph as our Mamie Till, as one of our mother leader warriors, who I’m proud to call my kin, who said that her son, Andrew Joseph III will be like Emmett Till, will inspire all of us to work for justice, so that my son, your little cousin, Amen Abdullah, your little cousin, Thandiwe Abdullah, your little cousin, Amara Abdullah, and your daughter, Dasia, will not be an Emmett Till, and so I’m grateful to you.
That show, Lovecraft Country, was about a mother’s love in a community who surrounded her, and said, “We’re going to use this moment when the world has been cracked open and is being held open by the spirit of Emmett Till to summon the African principle of Sankofa, to go back and get it, to go back and get what we are secretly charged to do, to rush through the portal, and determine what it is we must do, in order to get to Black freedom.”
I’ll submit to you right now that we know that we’re in a moment when that portal is beginning to close. The question we have to ask ourselves is, did we go back and get it? As the portal is closing, how will we move forward? The Sankofa bird is – the image of the Sankofa bird has a bird with its neck craned all the way back, retrieving something, but its feet are firmly planted in a forward direction. What is our forward direction? What does Black freedom look like? What does it look like to build a world where our children don’t have to constantly fight, have to constantly struggle, like think about what happened as we talk about environmental justice, and that our teenagers have to say, “Well, let’s complicate the conversation a bit.” What does colonialism mean? How must we think about racial justice, even in the context of environmental justice? How do we build a world where our teenagers can just imagine and be free and not be burdened by race constantly?
And I’ll say that is the work of Black Lives Matter. We are unabashedly Black radical abolitionists, who understand that the world that we live in isn’t the world it has to be. The world that we live in doesn’t have to be filled with police who see targets on our backs. The world that we live in doesn’t have to be filled with jails and prisons that steal Black life. The world that we live in can be filled with real education that allows our children to really engage their minds. It can be filled with Black art where we have things like BLM Fest and say, “How do we imagine, how do we build, how do we create, how do we document, how do we offer these imaginings to inspire new movements?”
That’s the work of abolition and that is the work of Black Lives Matter, but I’ll also submit, because not everyone in this room is Black, that this is also your work. This is also your work. We have a sacred duty, but so do you, that Black freedom is your charge, as well. It is your duty to engage in anti-colonial work. It is your duty to engage in the work of anti-racism. It is your duty to tear down, brick-by-brick, every institution that embeds and entrenches the racism that steals Black life, steals the lives of indigenous people, that builds up white supremacist, patriarchal, heteronormative capitalism, it is your duty to also be abolitionists. It is your duty, your sacred duty, to heed that call.
You know, I was in the audience, as Sir David Attenborough received his award yesterday, and I thought about what it meant for him to have offered the last 96 years to building a world that is more free for all of the inhabitants of the planet. What he did, what he’s doing, is heeding his sacred duty, that’s all of our charge. It’s all of our charge and not just to get in the streets for a year or two years or to say the word “Black Lives Matter,” or to post it on your social media, but to actually do the work, to make Black Lives Matter, because when Black people get free, everyone gets free. Ashay. Black Lives Matter.
Members
Black Lives Matter.
Melina Abdullah
Black Lives Matter.
Members
Black Lives Matter.
Melina Abdullah
Black Lives Matter.
Members
Black Lives Matter.
Melina Abdullah
Ashay.
Members
Ashay.
Melina Abdullah
Thank you [applause]. Before we get into the conversation…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah.
Melina Abdullah
…can I just offer one thing? So I’m terrible at reading my notes as I speak, but I think it’s important and I think that maybe we do this in a shared space. I don’t believe that we should ever ignore signs. Today is October 14th. Today, George Floyd would have been 48 years old. For many of you, it was his spirit that pulled you out into the streets. For many of you – thank you, staff of Chatham House. For many of you, it was him who inspired you to do this work and to recognise the work of Black Lives Matter, and so, in addition to all the names that we called, I reserved his name for last and then forgot to call it. I’d like us to all say his name and we’ll do it three times, for George Floyd, and I’ll ask if we could please stand up, and say the name George Floyd. Say his name.
Members
George Floyd.
Melina Abdullah
Say his name.
Members
George Floyd.
Melina Abdullah
Say his name.
Members
George Floyd.
Melina Abdullah
Ashay.
Members
Ashay.
Melina Abdullah
Thank you.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And I was about to do a direct segue into a first question on that, but I must first of all, apart from saying how great it is to have you here, Melina, and getting – being able to get to meet you and your family, and also John and Amelia and all the family we have here, as well, fantastic to have these communities here. I was going to say pass that to me, if you want, or I’ll open this one up here for you.
Melina Abdullah
It’s okay.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yes, you need to know your Grolsch beer to be able to handle this one, but before I do that, what I want to do is very quickly also welcome Halima Begum to the panel. Halima, thank you very much for joining us here, Chief Executive of the Runnymede Trust. Halima’s been a lifelong campaigner for civil rights, for equality. She was a Co-Founder in 1990 of the Women Against Racism movement to combat the rising incidence of racial and religious intolerance in the East End of London. She’s held a number of positions at FCDO, I suppose FCO in those days, the British Council, the LEGO Foundation. Actually, one of the very big foundations of the world not always known to everyone around here. She began her career as a Policy Analyst on the Commission for a Multi-Ethnic Britain before joining Action Aid and the LSE Centre for Civil Society, and, like Melina, she sits on a number of boards and has received also a number of awards. So, fantastic to have you both here to be able to have this conversation.
But let me just follow straightaway up to your closing call there that we all joined in with you, Melina, because, as the Director of Chatham House, I’ve had this role 14 years now, it’s been a while. The murder of George Floyd ended up really being a breakthrough moment, you talked about that breakthrough moment. Certainly here, I would say, in the United Kingdom, it’s been in a number of other countries, as well, I don’t know them as well, so I’m not going to speak on all of their behalves, but I would say, and I think of the meeting that we held amongst Chatham House staff, online Zoom, 150 out of 200 people, all joining to just try to process that moment and think it through. And we’ve never had that level of intense engagement amongst staff of Chatham House across the generations, I might add, for that moment. It was a, kind of, breakthrough revelation, and it was, I suppose, the fact that it was captured the way it was on film, in social media, that it was shared, just had some sort of cracking moment.
And you called out Sir David Attenborough yesterday. One of the things I heard him say was that you can’t have a conversation anymore about climate, without everyone being on that agenda in a way, at the moment. And I wanted to ask you why was this the breakthrough moment for BLM, which you’d founded a number of years before? What was it that you think made that breakthrough? And I’d like to start with you on that question, and actually, I’ll turn to you, Halima, in a minute, to say, what did it – that mean in the UK? Why did it transition? Why did it travel the way that it did, in your opinion? So, could you just share that with us, from your perspective, somebody inside this? I cannot claim to be inside your experience, but it was just – it was a breakthrough moment, and one that I think we’re all still actually feeling our way around. It’s like debris around your feet that you’re trying to, kind of, work your way through, a lot of the established concepts, thoughts, structures that we had have been challenged. So, just – could you just give me a thought of why that moment?
Melina Abdullah
So, I don’t know. I don’t know why it was that moment. I can give you a couple of things that I’ve been processing. You know, we’ve been in this work since July 13th 2013, that’s the day that Black Lives Matter was born. That came when the murderer of Trayvon Martin was acquitted. I also don’t know why that was the moment, right, because he wasn’t the first Black boy to be killed by white supremacy. I can say that I know that a lot of it was that there was a movement to meet the moment. That we’d been working for seven years at that point to point to how these outcomes are intentional, how the structures that are built deliberately put targets on our backs. That the media may not have been watching, but we’d been protesting every day. We had a protest in Los Angeles that had been going for three and a half years, and sometimes, it would be five of us huddled in the rain, but we never let up those Wednesday protests, right? So, continuing to do the work.
And then I do believe in the role of spirit, and so that’s what I was trying to articulate, that there is spirit in this work, and I don’t know – did not know George Floyd in life. I do know that I’ve met his siblings, I’ve met his family, and they’ve talked about how larger than life he was. I know the power that his brothers speak with. I believe that every time they steal the body of one of our people, those spirits join the movement. I know that when I speak the name George Floyd, I feel something. I know that when we talk about Andrew, who was 14 years old, this is his family here, Andrew Joseph III, that something comes, and he’s summoned in a different way. And so, I don’t know what happened exactly in 2020, in May of 2020, but I do know that there were all of these things that combined, and I think that also, the fact that we couldn’t look away, right, that we were watching for nine minutes and 29 seconds.
And many of you had heard us say that, you know, policing, especially in the Americas, comes from slave catching. And if you looked into Derek Chauvin’s face, you could see that truth, that as he ground his knee into George Floyd’s neck, and George Floyd called out for his mother, that what we were saying wasn’t just about movement, it was about Black life. And it required something of each and every one of us, that either you watch a murder and you’re complicit in that murder, or you stand up and you say that we’re going to beat this back and abolish it.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
That’s – I mean, I think, a) a very powerful statement, but that thing you said at the beginning about that there was a movement to meet it, whether that’s to meet the spirit, meet the moment, meet the public awareness, is incredibly important, and part of, I suppose, why the movement itself has been so powerful, not just in America, but beyond it, and that brings me, Halima, to you. It did seem like a breakthrough moment in the US, but it certainly broke through into the UK, and you think how it then cracked open issues of slavery, issues of the debate that’s continuing even today, right now, and a contested political debate, we’ll come to that in a minute, about how to process it. But what would be your interpretation of why it travelled and landed and burst through over here, as well?
Halima Begum
We’ve reflected on this question for quite a while now, and I suppose, for many of us, this movement has been in the process a lot earlier. So, this wasn’t the first death, it sadly might not even be the last, actually, so we need to be prepared that a movement isn’t over just because there’s a amplified emotion and feeling. Perhaps there were a few structural things going on, as well, that kind of made it possible for others to meet the movement, because I would say, Melina, that we were probably part of the movement.
Question is, what brought other people to meet the movement at this time in 2020 and what else was happening in the world in 2020? COVID certainly had a role to play here because we were almost all stuck in the same boat together, it would seem, a disease that apparently doesn’t discriminate, but guess what? Certain groups, with certain skin colours, were impacted in different ways, and I think it really shook the very fabric of people’s feelings about fairness. And actually, for me, anyway, I’ve reflected on this, the reason why what you describe as a breakthrough happened wasn’t because the murder was played out in real time, in that protected sense. By the way, I didn’t watch that video. I don’t need to watch the video to feel the horror of what happened. I couldn’t watch it. I think it was because, at that moment when we were all in the same boat, seemingly, it became obvious that actually, there’s something about White power that was being displayed in a way that nobody could deny because, you know, people deny racism, they have done for eons and donkeys of years, but suddenly there was no denial there, and that action that we saw wasn’t the action of one individual Police Officer.
Melina Abdullah
That’s right.
Halima Begum
There was the full confidence and the knowledge and the arrogance and the privilege of everything that he represented through the state and society that was laid out bare, and I think at that moment, White Britons and White Americans understood the invasiveness of racism. That’s what changed, by the way, because suddenly, this story about racism wasn’t what happens to Black people over there, was actually a story about us and our humanity and how we protect everyone in society and those most vulnerable, and possibly don’t possess as much power and privilege as we do. That’s what changed, I think, that moment when it became a story about us and not them, and that’s when movements really begin to empower, I think.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
That’s very interesting points, and, Melina, just to come back to you with what Halima said about the moment also being bigger and the context, I think you called it a minute ago, the politics of America had become more intense, should we say, under President Trump. There’d been Charlottesville, there’d been these other moments, that’s a British understatement, which you will get occasionally over here, even at Chatham House, a lot more intense. And, I suppose, in a way, there was a sense that there was a more overt battle taking place, that some of that White supremacist leaning was being brought into the politics of America in a way that you had never seen before. It had been, sort of, pushed to one side and unable to be ignored, you could argue, by the majority.
Do you think the political context in America, as well, had – was at a more intense moment, and I suppose I – my question to you is, is it still that intense, is it going to provide that continuity for the movement and for the journey? ‘Cause I heard you say the portal’s beginning to close and I was wondering, when you said it was closing, was that a negative thing, we had to worry that the moment was disappearing, or do you think the intensity remains? So, if I can just bring the political context in, we are at a policy institute, after all.
Melina Abdullah
Yeah. So, I think absolutely, nobody could deny the presence of White supremacy in 2020, and they’re under a Donald Trump administration, and I also don’t want us to minimise the fact that Black Lives Matter was actually born under a Barrack Obama Presidency. So, I think the enduring presence of White supremacy is something that Black people have never been able to deny, right? It doesn’t matter who’s in the White House, White supremacy endures, and it pervades every aspect of our lives, and so, it’s presence, in terms of how we experience police. But it’s also presence, in terms of how we experience schooling and housing, and the environment, and it’s always there, and so, yes, of course, it’s much more apparent. And I would – you’re making me think and talk at the same time, which is a terrible idea.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
That’s the kind of idea and we’re kind of like this, so go for it.
Melina Abdullah
I would say that for non-Black people, it is more appa – it was more apparent under a Donald Trump, right?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, as you said…
Melina Abdullah
They…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…with Barack Obama in the White House, in a way, one can say, “Oh, that problem is solved.”
Melina Abdullah
Right.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
If you are a White person.
Melina Abdullah
Exactly.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
You know? Yeah.
Melina Abdullah
Exactly. So, with the portal closing, what I mean is – and also, my day job is I’m a Political Scientist, so I like doing this, is when we think about movement moments, and I’ll argue that movements endure, right? So, Black people have never submitted to our own oppression. We’ve been fighting White supremacy from the moment we were stolen from the shores of Africa. We’ve never submitted, right? So the Black Lives Matter moment and Black freedom struggle really, you know, gains, you know, from Black power movement, from civil rights movement. We can go all the way back, but there’s these peaks and valleys, so when I talk about the world cracking wide open, we have these moments in Black freedom struggle where you have millions of people in the streets. You can’t expect that to be an everyday because we have to feed our families, right?
So the portal is going to close, but it doesn’t mean we give up Black freedom struggle, it means that we have to struggle a bit differently, and some of us – you know, I’m grateful that the numbers, you know, that are engaging in our Wednesday protests, and we are continuing to protest every Wednesday to bring down police associations, which are not unions, right, and we protest every Wednesday, that those Wednesday protests at the height, like June, July 2020, we had hundreds of thousands of people, right? But they haven’t fallen back to five people, right? That it’s still hundreds of people, and so we’ve gained something, and we’re continuing to protest in the streets, but we’re also writing, we’re also creating art, we also have young people transforming their school systems, and so the work continues.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
I was, kind of, working – as you said, thinking and speaking at the same time clearly works very well. What I would say is to you, Halima, the way the portal I feel is not closing in the UK, and I would go beyond the UK, but let’s – as you’re based here and we are, as well, which is that it has become part of the political debate right now. In other words, there is a sense in which it is part of the identity, slightly political, of where you stand in a spectrum, whether you’re part of this conversation or not, or at least how you would use the phraseology, the concept of whether racism is structural, institutional, or individual, you know, is now part of the political debate here. So I suppose my question to you is a slightly different one, which is, are you worried that actually the debate is become politicised, on both sides potentially, and weaponised within what has become a much more identity-driven type of politics, even in the UK, less left and right and more about where you stand on particular social issues? Is that going to help, or is that going to become a problem, is it making it harder to discuss this issue or not?
Halima Begum
It’s not helping us or the cause, and I think the people that are stoking this conversation up, in very political terms, aren’t interested in anti-racism in the same way that we are. To give you an example, we have been talking about racism since 1968, which is the year that the Runnymede Trust was set up. We were set up because we looked across to the pond to see what was happening there, and 68 was the year that Martin Luther King was assassinated. We felt that we needed some kind of structure, infrastructure organisation, in the UK, which can, kind of, absorb the movement, because if you don’t have some structure and support for the movement, all the pain of the bodies that hit the streets can’t be contained. Movements have to move in certain ways and they have to move and elevate up.
Now, if you look at end poverty movements or climate movements, and there’s a lot of bodies that hit the streets, make a lot of noise, stop trains, stop aeroplanes, all that kind of stuff. But they also have something more, which is resources, powerful people sitting up there at the very top of society making sure that the demands from the people are fed up and then you get the policy changes. What I’m worried about is if that lack of infrastructure and investment in Black civil society to contain the movement when you and I go home, because, actually, we might need to attend to our families. So, the movement needs to be sustained, and that’s my worry, because if you don’t invest in that infrastructure, that movement will wane. The politicisation of Black Lives Matter isn’t helping, because even that discourse around identity politics, it has a certain connotation, it – the connotation being that everybody wants to define themselves in different ways and leave them to it.
In our organisation, we actually don’t talk about identity politics, we talk about bog standard things about stamp out racism. Our Black footballers shouldn’t be subjected to that level of racism in the streets. We don’t talk about abstract things like identity politics, and those that do seem to be fighting a different culture war, which is clickbait, it’s not actually the work of anti-racism. I think it’s really dangerous that we’ve politicised the work of racism because it doesn’t really matter which party you vote for. I think it doesn’t matter how you vote for, what creed or values you hold, most of us know that an anti-racist society is about human rights, and all political shades and parties should subscribe to it. As soon as we start saying that, actually, anti-racism is a movement only of the left, I think we’re losing something precious, which is human rights goal, everybody deserves the right to a dignified life. I mean, that’s core to our society, so politicisation isn’t helping us, and you will never find me here talking about critical race theory, ‘cause there’s only one group of people that talk about identity politics and critical race theory, and they’re not the people that are supporting Black Lives Matter.
Melina Abdullah
Well, let me jump in as the…
Halima Begum
Okay.
Melina Abdullah
….critical race scholar, right? In the UK, I don’t know as much about the UK context, but I will say that in terms of politics, right, the people who are now talking about critical race theory, you know, what are we, 30 years into critical race theory? Critical race theory is, like, a 30-year-old, you know, theory, right? You’re talking about people like Derrick Bell and Faces at the Bottom of the Well, and, you know, we’ve been talking – I’m pointing to Tabitha ‘cause she’s also a critical race scholar. We’ve been talking about it because that’s one of the ways in which we help our students and help ourselves process how race pervades everything.
I’ll say in terms of politics, electoral politics, it does matter, because, one, there is no true left, in terms of electoral politics in the US, right? But, two, the right, they like to say, “Yeah, we’re good for everybody,” but all they’re doing is pointing to the one Black friend that forgets he’s Black, right, and is advancing his own self-interest, not – rarely talking about what Black liberation means. And so, for us, if you talk about the right, you raised Donald Trump, you’re talking about racism, you’re talking about wh – the party of White supremacy, right?
And then I’ll also say I don’t want to let our other political parties off the hook, because there’s also something around the world, which I have observed, that we call ‘liberal White supremacy’, where you have polite White supremacy, where they want to shake hands, and, you know, say words like, “Black Lives Matter,” but not put anything – not put any skin in the game, and actually do the work, yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
I’m going to do one more question here for myself, but please, get your questions and thoughts together, hands up in a second, comments and questions, as well, love to hear anything that you want to bring to this conversation.
You talk, Melina, about this, you know, being the – Black freedom is what you’re striving for, for all Black people in America and particularly around the world, I’m sure, as well. Where – ‘cause this is the debate in the UK, there is a separation that starts to happen between Black lives, Indian lives, Bangladeshi lives, Asian – East Asian lives, is there something specific to the Black experience, you talked about being stolen from your shores in Continental Africa, you know, those hundreds of years ago, your forebears, does that mean it is a unique experience that the Black Lives Matter movement represents, or is it inclusive of those other communities that may experience forms of racism, which may be similar or very different, but do not have the same historical experience?
Melina Abdullah
Right, so this is why everybody should read Critical Race Theorists, right, like, Derrick Bell and Kimberlé Crenshaw and others, right? Because part of critical race theory is acknowledging that there’s a racial hierarchy, and globally, not just in the United States, but globally, at the bottom of almost every single measure is Black people, right? And it has a lot to do with the history of colonialism, as well as the history of chattel slavery, and it’s why we say that when Black people get free, everyone gets free, right? So, Asian folks in the US or the Americas, we talk a lot about Latinex folks, indigenous folks, have to also be invested in the work of Black Lives Matter, because also, there’s no invisible only, there’s just a recognition that when we do the work of Black liberation, we undo those systems that hold everyone else down, as well.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Very clear point, and I – Halima, I notice you don’t want to talk about critical race theory, sounds like I’ve got us into it, because when the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities’ Report came out here, which made quite a splash, and you were in the thick of it, to me, there was a sense that one wanted – that you thought it should apply for everyone, if you see what I’m saying, and that the racism challenge in the UK is not one that is limited to one particular community. So where would you stand on the element of differentiation or inclusion in the struggle that we’re describing today?
Halima Begum
Yes, I feel I should come back to the critical race…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, yeah.
Halima Begum
…theory point and add…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Come into it whichever way you want.
Halima Begum
…the way in which it’s discussed in this country is almost used to, kind of, beat Black communities with it. So, if you’re interested in anti-racism work, the people who don’t care about racism start bringing up critical race theory and then you – then it becomes…
Melina Abdullah
You should ask ‘em to define it. That’s my – when the right always brings it up, I go, “Define it for me,” and they can’t.
Halima Begum
No, they can’t. What we try and do is talk about the actual work of racism, are you for or are you against? Because at the highest level of government, our Ministers are using critical race theory as a way to silence debate on racism. So that’s my point, I support it completely, but I also want to make sure that it doesn’t become an academic conversation, because we are talking about people’s lives in streets, and we are not having a conversation about books and what it means and doesn’t mean, so that was my point.
Melina Abdullah
I get it, yeah.
Halima Begum
Yeah.
Melina Abdullah
And they use it the same way.
Halima Begum
Yeah.
Melina Abdullah
They weaponize it the same way…
Halima Begum
They weaponize it.
Melina Abdullah
…in the United States, but they’re wrong, and they don’t even know what they’re talking about. Right.
Halima Begum
Yeah, so that was the point, and I would prefer us to be thinking about campaigns that matter that change people’s lives, and let them read the books and keep dismissing them. But to your point about whether there’s something very specific about Black Lives Matter, I stand here as a British Bangladeshi, of course there is. I mean, I’m just going to do a plain English thing again, if the house is on fire and there’s a particular room that seems to be burning more, what’s our response? We’re probably going to focus on where the need is greater.
So now if you look at the arrival of the Windrush generation here, back in the 1950s, if you look at the arrival of other communities, I mean, all communities suffer some level of disadvantage, and I would say that inequality is moving and it’s not static. But the outcomes for Black communities in this country has been so uneven that unless you think about a specific response around how you support measures to actually help that community achieve the same rights in this country and not suffer from discrimination, I don’t see how else you can claim to be an anti-racist. So, yes, I do think that the focus needs to be on Black Lives Matter, and as you were saying, that once we focus on Black Lives Matter, all lives matter. I have a problem with all lives matter at the moment.
Melina Abdullah
Right, don’t say those words.
Halima Begum
Right, I have a problem with it. I mean, I feel really uncomfortable saying it. Well, if it does and how is it that certain groups are disproportionately suffering discrimination, so they’ve misunderstood the point.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And you – and I suppose really, you’re separating out the socioeconomic question from the racism question and these two things end up being conflated and then you’re talking about the same things when you shouldn’t be. So, let me open up to see if anyone wants to come in with any points, questions, and I’ve got at least one hand there, so – two, so maybe we’ll take a couple of questions and bring some in. We’ve got some coming in on the audience, as well, so run it there and then we’ll come there, yeah, and at the back, as well. I’ll get you, sir. Yeah.
Melanie
I just want to say, first of all, what an honour it is to see you take this space. My name is Melanie. I’m a member of staff. First of all, I wanted to say that one of the most beautiful aspects of this movement has been its global resonance. I’m from Brazil, and in Brazil, Black Lives Matter was screamed in the streets, as well, and the thing about it is that it was – the movement was mainly directed by Black university students, very educated, yet new to those spaces, who were actually basically fighting for the lives, because my country’s very much colonial in its structure with White Latinex people like myself from the top.
So, my question is, how do we make Black Lives Matter accessible to maybe, for example, our Black populations from non-urban areas? How do we make sure we make it intersectional to other aspects of identity, such as, for example, being queer, or coming from a different background, how do we make sure that it’s an inclusive of all Black people and not just the ones that have the privilege of accessing their funds and doing “#Black Lives Matter” on their Instagram stories?
Melina Abdullah
Thank you.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Could you hold that? We’ll just hold that thought for a second, and let’s come to the lady – was it you? Yes, there was – a hand went up on this this one. No, she was there, thank you. Yeah, the – just – exactly, the microphone’s above you, so just speak away, we should be able to hear it.
Safi Moghani
Okay, I wanted to say thank you very much, Melina, for your presence today, and thank you, Chatham House, for organising this event. So, very quickly, I’m Safi Moghani, I’m a research student at UCL, and I wanted to say that during my sixth-form studies, I attended a boarding school in Scotland that was and is systematically racist. They held annual mock slave auctions, and students of colour were, as I said, systematically abused, and I don’t think there was one Black female student who attended, with whom I’ve spoken, who wasn’t abused.
Consequently, there was a positive development. We contacted the press, and an exposé was, sort of, put together and circulated in the press and widely circulated. My question to you is, is just a piece of advice, really. The same individuals and former students who would attend these marches and who would, sort of, put together portfolios of information online for White people, for non-people of colour, regarding how they can better themselves, these same students were very scared to actually speak to me and make a real difference, just speak to the press themselves, to confront, to properly confront, their own experiences. As an activist, how do you deal with that, sort of, people very willing to engage in the performative aspect, but when it comes to actually making a difference, and I’m talking about people of colour, really, as well, they don’t want to do anything?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Very interesting. Shall we take those two to start with and then I’ve got more questions coming at the end and a few more on here? Intersectional, rural, how does one break out of the – maybe the urban drive of the movement, is that a concern, a priority, for BLM, for the Black Lives Matter? I mean, how do you think about that, Melina?
Melina Abdullah
So this is the first question?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah. If you want to do that one first.
Melina Abdullah
Sure. Actually, can I go on…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, no.
Melina Abdullah
…reverse? Yeah, what was your name?
Safi Moghani
Safi.
Melina Abdullah
Saki?
Safi Moghani
Safi.
Melina Abdullah
Safi. So, I hope that after, maybe you can meet my daughter, Thandiwe, and maybe you all can – she’s at Howard University, she’s 17, and we – I told – I said I was going to rag on her ‘cause I wanted. 17-year-old sophomore, right?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, and a pleasure to be discovered, as David Attenborough discovered it yesterday.
Melina Abdullah
I think that your question, Safi, is really – a really important question and I don’t have a real answer beyond that there’s a lot of work that is investment and building relationships, and I think people who are willing to do something, the role of an organiser beyond an activist, right, is to really organise them. Why did they post what they posted? If you know them, why did they post what they posted? Why are they asking the questions that they’re asking? What can you do to pull them a little bit further in? And sometimes it’s as simple as this. Look, we’re having a meeting, we need somebody to pick up the water, can you just pick up the water for the meeting? Right? And then can you take the notes for the meeting, and then ca – oh, can you come with me to this protest, right?
Those kinds of things that bring them along and help them to understand, I feel like when we talk about systems being set up to do the things that it does, I feel like the educational system, especially university level education, sets things up so that we’re led to believe that you have to be some kind of special person to change the world, and you don’t, right? Like, it’s what is your thing, like, are you really – are you a really great singer? Yes, how Mrs Fannie Lou Hamer entered the movement, right? Are you the person that everybody pop – we have a sister in BLM LA named Jan. If Jan says, “Show up here,” you will show up there, right, just ‘cause Jan said. Her – she doesn’t like to get on the stage and speak, but she will text you at 1:00am and say, “We need you tomorrow morning at 8:00am, can you come?” Right?
What is the thing that you’re bringing to the movement and open it up to those people ‘cause that’s really what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to recruit them, right? What is that thing that they can bring and let them know that the thing that they bring is valuable to the movement. It doesn’t have to be everything. They don’t have to be the one to shout. They don’t have to be the one to think it all out. Later, they’ll get to that, maybe, right, but the movement requires all of those things. I hope I’m answering the question. But Thandiwe can – she’s really phenomenal at talking specifically about how to do things.
And then, for the second question real quick, all Black Lives Matter, right, and so, as you speak as a Brazilian, I want to uplift the spirit of Marielle Franco, and the beautiful work that she did to make sure that she embodied what we mean when we say, “All Black Lives Matter,” as a Black queer woman activist mother, right, whose life was stolen, right, but also recognising that it’s – we did not – I have no interest in being a part of some reading group that meets on Wednesdays with five people who read Kimberlé Crenshaw, right? This is about building a mass movement ‘cause it’s going to take the masses of people to transform the world, and so it means everyone going to your own corners of the world. It means igniting those spaces. Black Lives Matter recently launched our Black Lives Matter Prison Chapter, it means organising in prisons, it means organising in neighbourhoods, it also means organising in universities.
But the transformation of the world is going to take all of us, and so I think one of the most beautiful things that Black people have, I’m letting you in on a secret, is something called ‘linked fate’. That no matter how far we come out of the neighbourhood we were born into, and I’m from a neighbourhood, right, but I have letters behind my name now. I’m still tied to that neighbourhood, and so I think that we’d be hard-pressed to, you know, say that I’m in a university now, but I don’t still have my feet firmly planted in Deep East Oakland, right, a neighbourhood called Fontaine and the wakening and the coming into the streets of my neighbourhood is still important.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Any comments on these questions, Halima?
Halima Begum
I think if the climate movement can make things accessible, I think we can because, you know, what is climate science? It’s really complicated actually, but even, you know, eight-year-old children now understand something about saving the planet. So, I think if they can do it, we can do it, so we should probably learn some lessons from other movements around how you make this work more accessible.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, I mean, we were saying earlier the climate movement has really made an incredible set of breakthroughs, as well, in recent years. But I suppose the simple blunt fact of it is, there’s a sense that climate is affecting everyone, and what you’ve been talking about here is that actually, there’s a process of education or awareness raising for White people to understand that actually the Black Lives Matter. So, it’s a bigger challenge, I think, quite simply put.
So, right at the back, and keeping an eye around here in the room. Yeah.
Member
Oh, hello.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
You can take your mask off while you ask the question if you want.
Fomi
Oh, perfect. Ooh, I was hating that. Hi, I’m Fomi. Thank you so much for coming, actually, and I really enjoyed that focus on blackness because I think it’s so important, and I think it’s something that is a problem in Britain. So, as much as I want to really ask you questions, I’d like to direct a question to Halima, because as somebody who isn’t Black, and operating in a position of speaking on behalf of Black Lives Matter, how are you, sort of, unlearning your sense of where you sit in that racial hierarchy? Because as a Black British person, I don’t resonate with what you say. I resonate with what she is saying, even though she is based from the States. So I want to understand what work are you doing to unlearn where your positionality is in this struggle?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Interesting, tough question. I’ll give you a second to be able to digest it and think about it, Halima, ‘cause there was a question in front, yeah, just a couple of – keep your hand up, sir, then people – that’s great, thank you. Go ahead.
Chatham House Staff
Hi, thanks for this. I’m a staff member and very happily voted for you, and I’m so happy, it’s been two years that I’ve been working at Chatham House, and today, on stage, is the day I feel the best represented in my two years here. Thank you so much for this. The question is, you made a call to all of us, Researchers, Co-ordinators, here, people working in the international fairs, in policy institute, think tanks, what is the role for institutes like Chatham House and Researchers working in this international affairs area in this movement?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
It’s homework, and I’ll let you think about that, ‘cause we might want to take it on and we might not, but, Halima, you’ve had a chance to think about it first.
Halima Begum
I clearly said that I was British Bangladeshi and I’d quite like to centre my identity in a conversation very quickly, so that there is no doubt as to what particular community and lived experience that I represent, and I represent an organisation that represents all of our communities, so much of that work is driven from insight and listening to all of our communities. We represent Black Lives Matter where we hear from colleagues who have that direct experience. We represent the views of Muslim communities and Islamophobia.
So we don’t exclusively represent Black Lives Matter, we amplify, using our platform, the particular issues, and where, for me, on an individual level, it’s about showing the allyship and making sure that space isn’t taken, so that we can actually focus on the phenomenal experience and the expertise that you bring. So I think it’s about showing some humility and understanding that I cannot stand in the shoes of somebody who’s directly experiencing that, but equally, obviously, I’m speaking to the political landscape at the moment that we feel the heat from. As an organisation, we responded to the Independent Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities. We feel the temperature of the whole country in all of our communities, and I would say that I don’t represent Black Lives Matter, but we do everything that we can as allies to make sure that your voices and what you resonate with has the power to be heard and translated a lot further. So it’s more of a solidarity piece that we represent, and I hope that comes across.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
There you go. Thank you very much, Halima, a question also to you.
Melina Abdullah
Sure, and thank you for that, thank you for your work. One of the things that speaks to your question, and thank you for your vote and your acknowledgement. It really is humbling that the staff decided that they wanted to honour Black Lives Matter. It really is humbling, and speaks volumes, and I think all of us, with Black Lives Matter, are really almost overwhelmed by it, and so – and I could feel the spirit of your question, so thank you.
I would say this, and this is actually to Halima, as well, that when your heart of structures that can be beneficial to movements, so it’s Kayza and her folks who are on the streets, right, when you can be beneficial to the folks who are actually on the street, how do you take the resources that you have and give them to those who are putting everything on the line? And I want to be straight up, that the people on the streets, when you asked about pulling people into movement, both of you that’s really, kind of, the core of your question, movement is also messy and dangerous, and it’s a commitment, right?
I don’t know how many death threats you’ve received. I know you’ve received them, though, because there’s no-one who’s deep in the movement who hasn’t, right? I don’t know – I do know that some of us, right, we think about the time that’s stolen from our children, right? That while I’m in London, I want to take my daughter and my little cousin and I want to go to that little pink teahouse and have tea and crumpets, right, ‘cause we ain’t been to London, right? So we want to go and do Londony things, right? But I do know that the movement has precedent over that, right, and we’re going to figure out. We’re going to get to that little pink place, right?
But we need you to help resource this work, right, because we’re willing to give up time with our families, we’re willing literally, our bodies are on the line, and I won’t go into what’s happening, but y’all can look it up right now, like, what’s happening with our bodies, literally being surrounded by police with assault rifles on a regular basis, right, what that means. We need you to figure out how do these structures that may have an intellectual commitment to making Black Lives Matter actually make Black Lives Matter, so here’s what we need from think tanks.
We need you to talk about why police associations are not unions. We need you to research that for us. We need – what’s been useful is this new data that’s coming out on the undercount, that we know in the United States 1,200 people or roughly 1,200 people are killed every year by police, but that’s a 55% undercount, right? We need you to look at what’s happening inside of global prisons and jails, right, Kayza, here, here. How are Black people being killed inside and then they pretend like it’s a suicide, right? If it’s on the inside, then it’s not a suicide, right? So how do you use the resources of think tanks, of other, kind of, places that have infrastructure, to funnel in voice, amplifying our voice, right, and bodies, pulling people into the streets, and also resources. By resources, I mean reports, those kinds of things, and I straight up mean dollars.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Very interesting point.
Melina Abdullah
Or euros or pounds, whatever y’all got.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Got a few more – well, hands are starting to go up, this always happens now, that all the hands are going up, as we go into the last seven minutes or so. So, let’s – you know, right at the back, I’ll come to you, and then I’ll go here and here. So, right at the back, please, yeah.
Member
Yeah, so…
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
You can take your mic – your mask off, if you want, while you’re asking…
Member
Sorry, yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…your question.
Member
First of all, thank you for being here and for inviting UCL students to the event, and I really – I have a short comment and a question. So, I really agree with Halima when she says how dangerous it can be to politicise anti-racism, and her emphasis on the human rights dimension of the movement. So, when the BLM leadership failed to condemn repression against protestors in Cuba, the majority of which are mixed race and Black, this was also seen as the politicisation of a movement that have to absorb all people from all walks of life and political cultures. So, what can you tell to people that sympathise with the BLM course, but felt disappointed at that moment, at that stage?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Very specific question, do you want to take that now? Yeah, yeah.
Melina Abdullah
Sure. I can take it very quickly. I’ll say we didn’t fail to address it. We were intentional about how we addressed it, and that it’s a complicated issue. And as you talk about protest, we do have to consider politics, we do have to consider what Black Cubans are saying. We have to consider, you know, the ways in which US imperialism wants us to respond in a particular way, and we believe in doing work that is tied to other Black radical organisers, and so, racism is a political issue, because racism is about power, and so you can’t pretend that racism and anti-racism are not political. We were very intentional in the approach that we took and continue to take to stand in solidarity with Black folks and Cuba, and I say that also as someone who has family, who’s been part of Black radical tradition in Cuba, and has been there since the 1960s. He recently passed, but had been there since the 1960s.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay. Lady here, please, microphone’s coming, row – yeah, back, back, back, back, just put your hand up for a second. There we go.
Elena Henry
Good evening, or good afternoon. My name is Elena Henry. As you can tell by my accent, I’m American. I live here in London. I work for the British Government now, but before this, before moving, I worked at the British Embassy in Washington DC, and so, I was the Chair of the Minority Ethnic Group, that’s the group that was called for the US Network, and basically, we were a race relations network for the entire US Network and of course the US Network being the Embassy and Consulates around the US.
So, under my leadership, my group was tasked by the British Embassy, the British Ambassador, sorry, to create an engagement document that really targeted how the US Network could become not only anti-racist within the system, but individually, how we can do that. And so we created a document under the spheres of educate, engage, and advocate, and I think that really took flight, really. After we created that document, it actually changed some of the ways that the British Government in the US, some of the policies, and made sure that it was more anti-racist and more inclusive and diverse.
So, looking at the government and, kind of, where I am, and understanding, and, kind of, speaking to Halima’s point about other movements that have senior people at the top, who are really pushing the movements that they want to push within their colleagues, within their spheres, my question is, and, of course, I think, Melina, you, kind of, shared some ideas, but what could we really use or what could we really say? What are some tools that we can use, to actually reach those on the top, until – for example, until I get at the top, and start speaking and making sure that things are in place, but what can we do now to reach those at the top? Because I think one of the issues that I face is understanding how to link the gap, because for me it’s kind of like if you don’t ex – as pe – as some people say, if you don’t experience it then it’s kind of like you’re blinded to it, and that’s understandable, but how can we really, kind of, link that gap and really reach people that are at the top, that can make those movements, until we reach there?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
I’m trying to think whether I should take all the questions together at the moment or not. Would you keep track of these, if we’re okay, yeah? Maybe just bring a couple more in. Gentleman – person here, I can’t quite see who it is, yeah, there. Yeah, thank you, and then I think he’s going to get the…
Richard Sanders
Hello, my name is Richard Sanders, and I’d like to thank you very much indeed for both your contributions. But I want to go back to that question of the politicisation, and I was concerned, in a sense, that you said that almost politicisation for – of Black Lives Matter has the problems. Now, it seems to me that, you know, I was here about two years ago, and the most – until tonight, one of the – perhaps the most inspiring talk I’ve ever heard at Chatham House was from Stacey Abrams, and above all, this was a woman who – a person who understood the – to me, anyway, the significance of politicisation at a very, very, very basic level of simply organising people. And it just seems to me that it’s almost impossible – I think you just said later, so the question is about, it’s almost impossible not to politicise this question. And I’m concerned that – and it is very difficult in Britain, we – you know, we have political parties not dissimilar to the Republicans and the Democrats, and it’s very difficult to – it seems to me that ine – it’s inevitable, despite the difficulties that you have talked about, that it cannot be otherwise than politicised.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
So, more of a statement. I mean, I would just add my editorialization, if I understood the question at the back about Cuba and if I understood your response correctly, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I suppose for an institute like Chatham House, segmenting out our absolute commitment to accountable and inclusive governance and therefore always wanting to call out governments that do not stand up to that value, that is at the top of our hierarchy, alongside the human rights of all individuals who should be treated equally. So, I suppose we’re in the luxurious position of not creating a hierarchy of priorities on that, and we would call out the Cuban Government, as much as we call out the racism. So I suppose it might be worth just being able to come back to that point, if you’ve got a minute, because I think that one element that could weaken, I suppose, to a certain extent, the ability of people to really back BLM, if they feel there is a hierarchy between those prioritisations, between that commitment to governance and calling out the governments that are there, ‘cause to my mind, that’s beyond a hierarchy, and it should be – those things should be treated equally. So…
Richard Sanders
[Inaudible – 81:53] the question after having made it.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Yeah, I thought it was a comment, so I thought I’d come in with a question.
Richard Sanders
Which was simply that it seems to me it does matter who is in the White House.
Melina Abdullah
Oh, yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Well, it matters…
Melina Abdullah
That’s easy.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…who’s in government in Cuba, as well, by the way, but yeah. Yeah.
Melina Abdullah
It absolutely matters who’s in the White House and we can’t simply vote out a Donald Trump and ignore the racism that’s being advanced by a Biden administration, and I probably should be thoughtful about saying that, but I – I’m not, right? Like, there is something called liberal White supremacy and it doesn’t matter that Kamala Harris is the Vice-President or that Barack Obama is his friend, that when we think about the cuts to historically Black colleges and universities, when we think about the spending, the increased spending, on policing in prisons, right, when we think about all of the things that have been advanced, under this new Presidency, his unwillingness to undo things like qualified immunity, which you guys are actually at fault for ‘cause it comes from this system and, you know. But the idea that individual Police Officers shouldn’t be held responsible for stealing the life of Andrew Joseph, right? That we’re not getting any traction under Joe Biden, means that, yeah, we had to get rid of Donald Trump and nobody went harder to get rid of Donald Trump than Black Lives Matter, right? If you look at the number of votes that we were able to callout, right, we went hard. We had, you know – we knocked doors, we had parties, we had vote – what was the party called? I don’t remember.
Member
Party at the Polls.
Melina Abdullah
Party at the Polls parties, right? We did everything we could to get rid of Donald Trump, but also get people to vote all the way down. So we got rid of our District Attorney, those kinds of things, and we have to remember that just ‘cause we vote that evil out, and I will say Trump is an evil, right, doesn’t mean that we can afford to ignore what’s come in and how that’s also been abusive to Black folks.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay. Question, yeah, taking it back, at the back, yeah, put your hand up.
Member
Oh, I wasn’t asking a question.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
No, no, it’s not you. Don’t worry, we’ve done you. It’s the person in front of you.
Tighisti Amare
Hi, good afternoon. I’m Tighisti Amare here from Chatham House, as well, so I echo all my colleagues here in saying that, actually, this is one of the most inspiring events that we’ve done, so thank you very much for coming to join us, both of you, for this discussion.
My question, I wonder whether you could give us a little bit of your reflection on how the BLM movement also inspired other movements across the world, because I work with the Africa Programme. I’m the Assistant Director of the Africa Programme, and one of the most interesting things we’ve observed in our work is how the movement also inspired societies across Africa to say no to certain injustice and to suddenly become part of a global conversation around abuse and just in general neglect and abuse. So I wonder whether you have any reflections, also in terms of how do you keep this going, how do you make sure that you can co-ordinate and continue the momentum?
Melina Abdullah
Yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
I’m just taking Melina and we’ll go to Halima, after you.
Melina Abdullah
Do you want to go first? Go ahead.
Halima Begum
Not at all.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Go after you, after you.
Melina Abdullah
I think that’s probably one of the most incredible parts about being a part of Black Lives Matter, is, you know, people want us to tick off what we’ve done, our successes, and we’ve had lots of successes, right? We’ve had lots of successes and we’re going to continue to have these successes. Every step forward is a step forward, it’s an honouring. The greatest of all of our successes is something that some people would say is immeasurable, which is Black people have the audacity to struggle for Black freedom. We have a renewed commitment to say we have the right to be free, and, in fact, we owe it to both our ancestors and our future generations to struggle for Black freedom and Black freedom doesn’t just mean in the United States.
Yesterday, I was grateful to join the corporate accountability and public policy in Africa coalition to talk about the privatisation and – of water in Africa and why we have to fight to make sure that water is a right, is a hu – basic human right. And they talked about how Black Lives Matter has given them new life and new energy, and, I mean, one of the things that I was able to share is that there’s work that people like Kayza and Tabitha and Angela and I do, and Thandiwe and the families do to end police violence, state sanction violence, and making Black Lives Matter is more than we could ever do on our own, right? We can take that piece of it, but we need somebody else to struggle and say water is a human right, right? We need someone else to struggle and say, you know, we have to transform educational systems, which is some of the work that our young people are doing, and so I think what you’re pointing to is probably the greatest piece of the Black Lives Matter work. It’s not that you get in the streets and the names of – in the name of George Floyd, maybe that’s not your thing, right? But how do you make Black Lives Matter in whatever your thing is? And so thank you for that question and I hope it – I hope I addressed it.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Halima, any last points that you want to bring in? ‘Cause I’m keeping an eye on time, we were meant to finish at quarter past. We do have a reception upstairs. We’ve got Neil Kenlock’s exhibition and so on up there, which I want to make people have time to get to, but any last points from you? And I’ve got one last question for – as well, then, Melina, for you afterwards and we’ll close.
Halima Begum
I suppose we should probably bear in mind that something being politicised isn’t the same as being political. So, obviously, struggles are political, power isn’t given away as a zero-sum game, Black Lives Matter is all about gaining more power. What we mean by politicisation is the right wing completely weaponizing this as though this is something about the Republican Party or the Labour Party and so on. That doesn’t help because people generally switch off from that conversation, but, you know, the point about Black Lives Matter is that it’s all about power, very different from politicisation. That was my point, actually, and that doesn’t help.
But in terms of how we can create more solidarity to other movements across the world, I think there’s – I think we’re at the cusp of a particular point in history where there are two movements that are, kind of, jostling for more recognition, one called the Climate movement, the other one Black Lives Matter. They belong together. You know, if you somehow bring those two movements together, I think you could start conversations about reparations, abolitionism, colonialism, all of that in the way that wasn’t possible before. And all of that then leads to a much more just and humane international system where everybody’s rights are guaranteed, but also secured by an economic structure that doesn’t dispossess people who don’t have power, who on the whole are not White. Not always, but majority. If you look across the world, people who are hit hardest by climate change are women, poorer groups, and people who are – the global majority who have been minoritized. So, something about bringing the two movements together, I think, could be the pressure points that we, kind of, want to keep pushing on.
Melina Abdullah
And it’s about amplifying those who are Black and Brown and indigenous and women and poor who have been fighting for climate justice for generations, right, but whose voices haven’t been amplified in the same way, but are engaged in the work.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
And that brings to me to my closing question for you, Melina, because I heard you say very clearly your movement is a struggle for Black freedom everywhere, and you just described that broader agenda that goes into climate justice, as much as it does to other justice. Therefore, BLM is also about a struggle for Black freedom against Black corruption in Africa or in governments around the world, or is it exclusively about the racist dimension that would focus it? ‘Cause it sounds to me, from what I heard the question from Tighi, is others want to pick up the movement you’ve driven. They want to take it on and they want to claim that life, you know, that slogan, the Black Lives Matter, but they often sometimes mean Black lives in our Black society in an African country. Does that apply as much to you, is that – do you want it to go that far or do you want to keep the focus, if you see what I’m saying, that I heard so much in your opening remarks?
Melina Abdullah
One of the victories that I was pointing to was the ousting of a District Attorney who’s one of those happens to be Black people, but here’s the thing, that we have to recognise that even when the embodiment is through a Black person, it’s still White supremacy. So, when we talk about colonialism and imperialism and the way in which people who embody blackness engage in abuses of Black people, that still comes from a place of White supremacy. And so understanding the global nature of White supremacy and the way in which, you know, people who might happen to be Black are used as tools and advancements of White supremacy is also really important in this work.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay, I heard that. I mean, I think I know that we would look at whether some of that stuff isn’t just about White supremacy, from our standpoint, I’ll say it, my standpoint, I won’t speak for all of Chatham House here, I think there are – you know, there are Black people who can just be corrupt and not be driven by White supremacy.
Melina Abdullah
But what you – I hear you, and what makes them corrupt? Who are they selling out to [applause]?
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
We need to – I think we need to invite you back and have that conversation around the table here, ‘cause I can feel a whole thing opening up there, and actually, it would be a good conversation to have because I think that is a political conversation rather than a politicised one, and it’s, kind of, the stuff of our business. So I suppose I opened the door right at the end to the theme that I will carry on over the drinks. But, actually, as I said, Neil Kenlock, Amelia, his daughter, has put together a fantastic exhibition upstairs. Neil, thank you very much for joining us, Amelia, as well. Folks, it really has been just a wonderful conversation. Halima, thank you very much for being part of it, for bringing that other perspective to this conversation. Melina, I hope that you and your family will get to the little pink shop, whatever it is you were mentioning there, it probably – they probably sell sushi or…
Melina Abdullah
No, no, no, it’s actually tea and crumpets.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
…it might be a Greek restaurant, it really is English? Are you sure?
Melina Abdullah
Yeah.
Dr Robin Niblett CMG
Okay, well, you’re in the centre of London here, I was wondering about that here, but just so fantastic to have you here. As I said, you heard Chatham House staff here talk about how proud they felt putting the vote through for you. Thank you, colleagues here at Chatham House, for being part of this meeting today, for being part of allowing us, in our centenary, as we look forward to our second hundred years, to have a very different type of conversation. You’ll have to come back soon, as well, but I think it’ll be – you know, it’s reminded us of, kind of, what animates the staff of Chatham House at the beginning of the second century, are some quite different debates to those that animated it and not even just 100 years ago, I’d say even ten years ago, and it’s an animation that we’re all proud of at Chatham House. You’ve given us the chance to be able to really look through that dialogue, think about it, and you challenged us, how we could contribute to it. We’ll be thinking, we’ll be discussing it ourselves, I’m sure, at our staff meeting on Monday morning, but for the moment, can I thank you all for being with us, those who joined us online, as well, a very strong hand for Melina Abdullah [applause]. Thank you so much for joining us.
