In Conversation with Ambassador Amina Mohamed: Candidate for Director-General of the World Trade Organization

Dr Alex Vines

We are at Chatham House and I’m your host this afternoon. I’m very delighted to be having a conversation this afternoon, this evening, this morning, depending where you are, with Ambassador, Dr Amina Mohamed who is the Cabinet Secretary for Sports, Heritage and Culture in Kenya, which is the Kenyan equivalent of Minister, and as many of you know, she was the Kenyan Minister, Cabinet Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade 2013-18

This is a conversation with Ambassador Amina Mohamed as part of a series that we’re looking at of the candidates for the — to replace the Director-General of the World Trade Organization. On the 31^st of August 2020, Roberto Azevêdo will step down as DG of the World Trade Organization. The selection process for the next Director-General is underway, with eight candidates nominated by national governments around the world.

Chatham House has now — with Amina Mohamed, we’ll have hosted three of the candidates and indeed, next Monday the 10^th of August at 12:15 British Summer Time, we will be hosting Liam Fox as another candidate. A couple of notices just about this meeting, it is a public meeting. It is being recorded. It is fully on the record, and when we come to the moment for Q&A, if you could type in your question in the ‘Q&A’ box, I will then turn to you and choose some of the questions. If you want to ask that question that you’ve written up, please indicate so and that will also assist me.

So, with the house rules out of the way, I’m delighted to be welcoming back Ambassador Amina Mohamed to Chatham House because she spoke here last, in fact on the stage where I am, in September 2016. She was then Kenya’s Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs and Trade. So, Ambassador Mohamed, I’ve got a few questions for you and the first question I’d like to ask is, what is your overarching philosophy on global trade and how does this influence your vision for the future role of the WTO?

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, thank you, Dr Vines. Thank you for having me back. I’m delighted to be here, to be back at Chatham House and, you know, last time I came, I was told even then that I was at the record, but when I was invited, I thought I would Chatham House Rules, so, you know, I’m really happy to be back, and I know that this is on the record. You know, to your first question, Dr Vines, you probably remember that the first sighted, post-war leaders in the 40s shipped a new economic order, and in so doing, they steered the world away from the aftermath of The Great Depression and the catastrophe of armed conflict, and they did that by ensuring that we would then move onto a path of growth going forward.

The vision, underpinning this architecture of international governance, emphasised multilateral co-operation, which is something that I firmly and truly, you know, believe in. And the period from the 1950s to the early years of the 21^st Century was one of unprecedented economic growth and development. Trade was a big part of that story. What I would say next is that at a personal level, at a very personal level, having worked at the WTO and having worked as a Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, I’ve seen the dynamism that global trade can have in empowering countries and communities, to integrate into the international trading system.

But we also have seen instances, in the same years, where our countries did not possess capabilities to take advantage of the opportunities and indeed, instances where certain countries have not abided and by their multilateral obligations. The world economy has also changed. Trade rules have not. New developments in digital knowledge, and the increase in the types of services, which can be traded, pressures of environmental degradation and climate change, make it absolutely necessary, but it’s not critical that we begin reengaging as we did before, in multilateral negotiations, so that we’re able to deal with these new challenges, including, of course, Dr Vines, the pandemic. And so, I brought a vision with me, when I applied for this job, and it was a vision of reform, of recovery, and of renewal, and a fourth one of results. If we’re able to reform, if we’re able to rec0ver from the pandemic and if we’re able to renew the multilateral trading system, then we will get concrete results, as we have done before.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you very much Ambassador Amina. So, you mentioned the pandemic, so let me ask you a question this way. The WTO is predicting an historical large fall in world trade volumes in 2020 and probably only a limited recovery next year. What are the most important steps that the Organization needs to take in response to the economic crises, triggered by the pandemic, in your view?

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, I think first of all that the WTO needs to do what it does best, which is to insist on transparency of measures that governments, members of the WTO take and, you know, when they are confronted with a pandemic and what we saw, Dr Vines in the beginning, was that out of fear members of the WTO decided to erect barriers. They imposed trade restrictive measures and they made sure that, you know, the thought of their own domestic situations first before thinking of multilateral co-operation, which again was the overreaching reason, why the WTO was actually established, why governments established. And so, they looked inward and started putting in place restrictive measures. So, I think that the first thing that WTO would have to do is to make sure that the gateways of trade are open and that WTO members, continue to build on the work that they started, to look at members’ response to the COVID.

In the Trade Policy Review Body, we actually have a transparency mechanism and there are multitask measures that countries are putting in place, in response to different things. It’s a transparency mechanism and this transparency function of the WTO, is often overlooked. But in this pandemic it has become incredibly important. It’s become incredibly important to make sure that, that transparency mechanism works well, so that we take notice of measures that have been put in place. And we remind members that their responsibility is to to keep these gateways of being open and that if they put in place trade facilitative measures, in fact, we can get out of the pandemic, all of us together, at the same time, without as much a destruction as we would have, if all of us went our own ways, we acted in isolation and we didn’t collaborate and there was no multilateral co-operation. So, I think that the role of WTO is just to make sure that these gateways are completely open and they stay open, for the duration of the pandemic and after, to make sure that all the medicines, the equipment, that is required by countries, to start dealing with this pandemic. The doors are available to countries and especially, countries that do not manufacture these products. Many of them, being developing countries and least developed countries, but also, small and vulnerable economies and small island states.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you. I’m going to push one more question your way, which is a further pressing issue that I can see facing the WTO is the crises in dispute settlement system. So, how would you address this? It’s clearly a very key issue.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

In fact, you know, I have always argued that the whole system, the WTO system is a complete system and it should begin with the initiation of discussions, to the negotiation of new rules, to a mechanism that would then address any disputes that arise out of these rules that were negotiated by members. And so, if you take one piece out of the dispute settlement mechanism, which is a two-tier system, and then you leave a gap. You leave a gap that needs to be very, very quickly filled. The WTO’s dispute settlement system, it actually injects credibility, legitimacy and effectiveness into the WTO, because it makes sure that the rules can be obeyed and if they’re not obeyed, then you have recourse to justice as it were. And, so not having the Appellate Body there, because of concerns that some members have expressed, and by the way, it’s not just one or two members, it’s a number of members and it’s quite – you know, it’s quite broad, you know, support for the reform of the Appellate Body, it’s quite broad. And therefore, we will need to start negotiating, our constitution of the Appellate Body, because if we don’t, then you’ll see governments trying to put in place interim measures to address that gap, because the gap actually exists, and we need to be able to fill it.

It was intended to be a system that was like, I said, complete that had a two-tier dispute settlement arrangement and therefore, we need to make sure that, that system is put back in place. The way to do it, is to get countries around the table. We have a Dispute Settlement understanding; it gives mandates to all of the panels and the dispute and the Appellate Body. And so, we need to look at the Dispute Settlement understanding. See where we fell off track? Why the Appellate Body does not exist anymore? What did we do wrong? What’s happened with that mandate? See whether we can correct the wrong that may have been done by falling off of track when it came to the implementation of that mandate and using the mandate to deliver, you know, reports and decisions for the membership.

And I think that members have already started doing this. They have proposals on the table. One of the proposals that it is actually gaining some level of traction is a proposal by the Chairman of the General Council who was Chairman of Dispute Settlement last year. And it’s a proposal on how to reconstitute the Appellate Body, by dealing with the concerns that were raised, correcting anything that had that was not supposed to happen and may have happened, and making sure that we put it on a track of stability and that we do that transparently, including all the members in the discussion, so that nobody is left out of the conversation and so that everybody agrees on how the Appellate Body would be reconstituted. So, that’s really critically important. We cannot do that without an Appellate Body. We must have it back in place.

Dr Alex Vines

And I have one final question before going to Q&A and to remind everybody that’s listening that you can ask your question. Type it into the ‘Q&A’ box and just say whether you want me to come and ask you to ask it verbally, or I will choose some to read out myself. But Dr Amina, I’ve had a few WhatsApps from around the world, when people found out I am chairing this meeting, and what struck me, a number of people are saying, “What would be your — where do you see the Aid for Trade agenda of WTO going? None of the other candidates have mentioned it so far, it is a WTO initiative and given the importance of the recovery post-COVID, where do you see this particular initiative fit in?”

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, I was here when Aid for Trade was actually negotiated and put in place. I think that the reason why, we needed an initiative like that, was because we realised that in order to fully integrate developing countries and list of all countries, into the multilateral trading system, that we needed to support capacity building, that we needed to make sure that they had what it took to participate in trading. And whether in terms of just procedures and policy formulation and whether it was in terms of addressing some of the supply side constraints they had, whether it was to do with the standards of the products that they were producing. Now, there are all these issues that needed to be carefully, you know, addressed and there were no resources to do that, and so it was very important that we came up with a programme, that would then attract, you know, funding and from the development partners, countries that were able to do that, make sure that we had the resources to support those that needed this support the most and that obviously meant that they had vulnerable economies that needed that support. And I can tell you that it worked really, really well.

And, you know, one of the things that if I was selected to be the Director-General, one of the things that I would do, I would need to make sure that I worked with other international organisations and especially the financial ones, and to make sure that we could get resources. All of them have desks that deal with trade and support to countries that need to be supported to integrate and would be able to coherently develop policies, that would address the challenges that these countries, you know, face. Boost the Aid for Trade package, make sure that we have the resources, to address the concerns of as many countries as possible. You can’t integrate into the multilateral trading system, if you cannot fix some of the problems that these countries are facing. And apart from the Aid for Trade, there was also the obviously integrated framework for LDCs.

Now, you know, just consider this, consider this for a moment, that LDCs get access to markets across the world and they do it on a duty-free quarter free basis, but there’s absolutely no way that they would get adequate access, right, because of some of the measures that are included in the rules of origin, or in the standard that are expected of the goods that enter these markets and without support, these countries won’t be able to make it. So, Aid for Trade, critical initiative, needs a lot of support, but has been extremely useful in addressing the concerns the developing countries and LDCs have to integrate into the multilateral trading system.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you very much, Dr Amina. We’ve got some questions now and I’m unclear of that any of them want to ask verbally, but I’m going to ask the people whether they want to ask it verbally. The first one on the list is Myles Wickstead. Myles if we unmute you, please ask your question and do introduce yourself.

Myles Wickstead

Hi, there. So, my name’s Myles Wickstead. I’m a former British Ambassador to Ethiopia and I spent some happy years in Kenya, running the region and all kind of programmes in East Africa. And the question I wanted, Dr Amina, is to ask, what role you think the Sustainable Development Goals might have in seeing WTO’s work, go forward? We are at a crucial moment, where there is a risk of losing momentum and I would just like to have your assurances, that if appointed to that position, you would really get behind them and push them along? Thank you very much.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, thank you. Thank you very much, Ambassador, and I think that’s an amazing question. You know, because honestly, if we are not able, within the WTO, as we continue working on issues that fall within the management of the WTO, if we lose sight of the SDGs, then we won’t be able to actually achieve the goals that we have set for ourselves. And I’ll tell you that when I was in Nairobi chairing the Ministerial Conference, that was utmost in my mind and that’s why I insisted, on getting a deal on the prohibition of export subsidies. Because I thought that, that will address the goal on ending hunger. It would make food more affordable and we will allow farmers to be able to actually compete in their own market. Because then food that will be coming in would not have been subsidised and they had a fair chance of improving their livelihoods and dealing with the whole, you know, hunger question.

So, in Nairobi, we were actually able to address very, very directly an SDG on ending hunger. Right now, at the WTO, there are multilateral negotiations that are ongoing. There are negotiations on fisheries. If we are able, at the end of this year, to deliver a Fisheries agreement, we would have actually ticked two boxes. One of trade and the other one of sustainability, again addressing one of the SDGs that we agreed on in New York. And, you know, as we go on, I think we’ll be addressing them in any and all the negotiations that we undertake, whether it’s on agriculture, with addressing domestic support and market access, or whether it’s in any other areas, including the digital economy. We have a plurilateral right now on eCommerce and I have been talking about how we must make sure, that the benefits of that plurilateral agreement, are actually shared on an MFN basis, on a most-favoured-nation basis, with all members of the WTO, those that negotiate in and those that didn’t. And, you know, by doing that, then you get growth support and you also help in addressing the digital divide, you know.

So, those issues that are uppermost in my mind, even as I compete to be Director-General of the WTO, you know, hoping that we can have some coherence in the way that we deal with issues that are important to the international community, including, of course, climate change.

Dr Alex Vines

Indeed. The next question is one on climate change and I wonder if she wants to ask it verbally. Ameera Shah, would you like to ask your question?

Ameera Shah

Hi. Sure, yeah, thanks for having me on. You mentioned climate change very early on in your presentation. So, as the Head, or the DG for WTO, how will you ensure that the institution leads on the climate emergency response, as opposed to simply responding to alternative threats? So, thank you.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, thank you. Thank you very, very much, Ameera. Look, at the WTO we have a committee. First of all, let me backtrack a little bit and say that we have what we call, the Trade and Agenda, which is trade and other issues and one of the issues is environment, so we have a Trade and Environment Committee. Now, that committee, when I was there when I was here, when it was actually established, did a lot of work for the environment. We even started working on a list of environmental goods and services. You know, since then, it’s kind of slowed down and hasn’t done a lot of work. I think one of the things that I would do, if I was selected to be Director-General of WTO, is to energise that committee, to get it to work, you know, look at the list that we had developing a few years back, of environmental goods and services and just make sure that those — the list is still relevant, to the issues that we’re dealing with now, including response. And just make sure that, you know, we are participating in this, you know, global conversation on climate change and what needs to be done about it.

But the WTO actually has a Committee on Trade and Environment and as I said, you know, it just needed to be reenergised, so that it can do what needs to be done and to participate in the global conversation that’s taking place right now.

Dr Alex Vines

Right, another question we have is from Mohamed Abd al-Rahman. Mohamed, do you want to ask your question verbally, please? If not, I will read it out. Mohamed Abd al-Rahman are you still there? No? So, Mohamed’s question is the following, Dr Amina. Oh, I can hear him. Yeah, please go ahead.

Mohamed Abd al-Rahman

Yeah, thank you very much for having me this opportunity. My name’s Mohamed Abd al-Rahman and I am from Somaliland and currently I work with the Ministry of Trade. So, my question to Amina is, what kind of strategy do you have to build again the trust and solidarity of world trade betterness, which currently diminishing, due to the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as trade war between China and USA? Thank you.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, thank you very much, Mohamed, that’s really a good question. You know, first of all, I would deal with some of the issues that are arising by making sure that — and some of the tensions that you’re talking about, arise because the rules are either weak or they’re absent. And so, one of the first things to do is to see how we can actually reform the Organization to deal with the shortcomings, that members have pointed out. And one of the shortcomings, is basically, the updating rulebook that members feel is outdated and making sure that as you update the rulebook, that you take into account the latest developments in — you know, globally and including, of course, the pandemic, but also, digital revolution, as well as sustainable, you know, development. So, upgrading that rulebook is critically important because it will take care of all these issues.

The old issues that need new rules and new issues that also needs new rules, but also, weak rules that need to be strengthened. I also think that when you have reformed, you build on that, to ensure that we can recover from this, you know, from the pandemic and also renew the Organization and make sure that the Organization is actually fit for purpose. You know, on the tensions, and the reason why, you know, we need to look at the rules to sort out the tensions is because they — some of the reasons that I’ve been given are that the rules are weak and that they’re being circumvented. And so, there’s a need to look very, very closely at that. I have no doubt in my mind, that with good will, good faith and negotiations, and with a Director-General, and hopefully if I’m selected, who can both create the space for negotiations and for candid talks„ but also offer good offices and be an honest broker in EBITDA, that will be able to start very, very gradually, incrementally dealing with some of the issues that are facing the Organization today.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you. We have a question from Ed Cropley from Reuters. Hello, Ed, nice to see you. Do you want to ask a question verbally? I think you’re based in Nairobi too, if I remember, right? Ed, would you like to ask a question, or shall I read it out?

Ed Cropley

Yeah, hi.

Dr Alex Vines

Ah, good.

Ed Cropley

Hi, Alex. Hi, Dr Mohamed. I’m Ed Cropley. I used to be the Reuters Africa Bureau Chief based in Johannesburg, but I’m now in the UK as a Columnist for Reuters Breakingviews. My main question relates to, sort of, the big source of paralysis in the WTO, which is the tension between the United States and China. How are you as – how would you, as WTO Director, convince either Donald Trump or his Democrat rival that multilateralism and the return to multilateralism is in US interests?

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, I don’t think that there’s a doubt in anybody’s mind that multilateral trade has been good for all of us, it’s been a force of good, it has been transformational, and we have a system in place. Today, I was talking to Dr Vines about and that was created after the Second World War, whose intention was to make sure that all trade disputes would be governed by rules and that we would avoid going into conflict, because of the lack of governance in the multilateral trading system. So I have no doubt in my mind that all of us, members of the WTO, want the US and China to stay in the Organization, to resolve any issues that there may be within the context of the WTO, within the framework of the WTO, and as I said just a few minutes ago, and one of the reasons why you have these tensions, is because the rules are weak, in some cases, and do not cover development that have taken place or the rules are absent and need to be negotiated. And so again, as I said before, we would need very, very quickly to put in place the conditions that are required, the environment that is needed, to start building confidence among the members. So that they feel confident enough and there is an environment of confidentiality, where they can actually come in, candidly put the issues on the table and resolve them.

I was talking to friends and when I told them that these are not the first, you know, tensions that we’ve seen in the multilateral trading system. We’ve had tensions before, even before China came in, and we resolved them, by making sure that the DG acted as an honest broker, that he convened meetings, you know, between and among countries that had reasons to meet and resolve, you know, tensions that existed and that it was done and we moved on. And I’m hoping, that if selected, I would offer the same kind of service. Good offices, create an environment, build the confidence that is required among the members and, you know, start talking about these issues, putting them on the table and discussing them. And we are not doing that right now. We need to start doing that. Right now, we are all talking at each other. We need to talk to each other and deal with this in a very honest and candid way.

Trade issues can be resolved within the WTO. I have no doubt at all in my mind. They have been resolved before and I’m sure in the future they’ll continue to be resolved and maybe in ten years, it will be a different type of tension that will exist, and, you know, so I’m really — I’m very, very confident that if the trade issue — WTO is where it should be resolved. It has the Dispute Settlement mechanism. One that needs to be obviously fixed, but it has done amazing work before for the membership and I think that it will continue after that and I would offer, good offices that are required to do that. I don’t think that there’s an issue of, you know, who’s in office. I think if they are trade concerns, they will always be trade concerns and they need to addressed as such, as trade concerns that need rules to resolve.

Dr Alex Vines

Great. Thank you very much. We have another question come in from Carlos Lopes. So, Carlos can you unmute yourself and ask Dr Amina your question. Professor Lopes.

Professor Carlos Lopes

Thank you, Amina, it’s a pleasure to ask you a question. I’m really worried about the Doha Round, not being anymore in the cards, for according to certain members, influential members and yet, this is a larger question, about how we use trade as a means towards development, rather than trade as an end on itself. So how do you intend to address such tension, if you are elected DG?

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, thank you very much, Carlos, it’s so wonderful to hear you. First of all, I’m so happy to hear you and to say that, yes, that has been a concern and it’s been raised by a number of countries, but look, this is what I would say, that the Doha Round was launched in 2001. I was in Doha, when the round was launched, and we worked really, really hard to launch the Doha Round. It was also coming in the aftermath of 911, as you know, where we all needed, as an international community, to come together to show that we can work together and that we can achieve great things, and so, we did. There was euphoria when we did that. We were really, really happy and that even with all the doom and gloom, that was happening and that we were able to achieve something that was really significant, for the international community.

Now, we all know that Doha, which was scheduled to end in 2005, it remains unfinished. But what we did in Nairobi was to make sure that export subsidies, which was part of Doha, was actually resolved. Now, if we can resolve domestic support, we can resolve market access. We can conclude the Fisheries agreement, then we would have taken care of a number of issues, number of items that we had in the Doha Declaration. And I think, it then becomes an issue of substance and not form, of what are the items that we can deal with? How quickly can we deal with them? And how quickly can we realise the objectives that we set for ourselves in Doha? But I will argue that some of the items that we had in the declaration have already been attended to and others have been resolved, export subsidies are done, fisheries is ongoing now. We have negotiations on fisheries that are ongoing and I’ve been talking about the need, to make sure that the other two pillars of the agriculture negotiations, are restarted again and with the expectation and the hope, that if selected DG, then I would reenergise the domestic support negotiations, to make that happen also, at Kazakhstan during the Ministerial meeting.

If that happens, then of course, those issues that I’ll be taking care of, export subsidies, domestic support, fisheries, if it’s completed, of course with domestic support you have the cotton issue and so, that too would have been addressed, you know, so finally it just becomes, you know, substance over form,. Have we achieved the substance and if we have, then we can move to the – you know, to dealing with other issues.

Dr Alex Vines

Good. Let’s move to another question and, woops, my questions have just moved out of sequence. Yeah. Trudi Hartzenberg, would you like to unmute yourself and ask your question, please. Trudi are you there? If not, I will read it out.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Trudi is not there?

Dr Alex Vines

We are just seeing, otherwise I will ask the question. Okay, I’m going to read it out, which is, the question was, “The Trade Facilitation Agreement is only new multilateral agreement concluded since the establishment of the WTO, what can we learn from this agreement?”

Trudi Hartzenberg

Thanks so much, Alex.

Dr Alex Vines

Oh, okay. You’re there, Trudi. Thank you.

Trudi Hartzenberg

Thanks very much, Amina.

Dr Alex Vines

Yeah, okay.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Yeah. Hi, Trudi, are you going to ask the question yourself?

Trudi Hartzenberg

It’s good to hear you and I think our experience with the Trade Facilitation Agreement has important lessons for us going forward, in terms of negotiating further agreements. It focuses also of course on, what we need to do to assist with effective implementation by LDCs and developing countries, what are your thoughts on that? Thank you.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, I think that — Trudi, thank you very much, it’s wonderful to hear you. Let me just say that, that’s a new generation agreement. It’s a new generation agreement, because it deals with some of the issues that I think even Paris was referring to in a diff – in a new way. They’re basing some of the flexibilities and some of the concessions that are given to countries, on a need basis yeah, a need basis and not blanket. So that’s a new generation agreement. I think it was very, very carefully crafted to just balance, you know, rights and obligations, but make sure that countries that needed to receive the support that they need, to be able to basically facilitate trade within their borders. And to make sure that their procedures and regulations are modernised and that many of them are digitised, so that it’s just much more efficient for them to participate in international trade.

So, I will say, yes, it holds many lessons, you know, lessons of moving forward, moving forward carefully, making sure that you’re carrying all your members along, giving support to those that need it, and in a way monitoring, whether that support is adequate, you know. So, it’s an agreement that I think shows us what the way forward with the future of multilateral negotiations would look like.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you very much. I have a question from Nigeria, again sorry, I’ve just lost it. Here it is. Mohammed Adamu, could you ask your question, please. Mohammed Adamu. Otherwise, I will read it out. So, Mohammed might not be with us. So, I’m going to ask the question and his question is, “Dear Amina, is it too late for Africa to have a consensus candidate, obviously referring to the — there’s an Egyptian candidate, a Nigerian candidate and yourself?”

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, thank you so much, and I’ve answered that question, you know, so many times recently. Look, I think that it’s wonderful that Africa has put forward three highly qualified, you know, candidates for this job. And one thing that it has done for us is to show, just how much potential there is on our continent and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. It also shows how much we want to contribute, to the multilateral trading system. I think just recognising how it has transformed our economies, that it has been a force for good, that is something that we must all participate in and the need to be able to support our Secretariat of the African Continental, you know, Free Trade Agreement. You know, so it’s not a negative [inaudible – 38:46], it’s not a bad thing and I think it’s not – do not take away from an African leading the Organization. I think the members, in their wisdom, will decide which one of the eight candidates, best suites, you know, to do their job now, yeah, because this is a critical time for the WTO. The WTO is at a crossroads.

I think that that train of getting one candidate has left the station, you know, frankly, because all of us have participated in the General Council debate. We have been interviewed. We have been discussing trade issues since then and, you know, but we have been also very supportive of each other and basically, talking about how important it is that Africa can make a contribution, you know, finally, to the multilateral trading system, to trade Governors globally, and that it has such competent candidates to put forward.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you. I have a question from Julius Mabalatuw. Julius, do you want to ask your question, please? We’ll try and unmute you.

Julius Mabalatuw

Yes, I will.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you very much. Go ahead.

Julius Mabalatuw

Dr Amina, we wish you all the best. I think you are a very good candidate and my question is that, what will you do to ensure there is, you know, equality between nations, when it comes to global trade? There’s been, you know, like observations that most of the time, the views that are stricken, some time they don’t end up being value for money, especially to African countries.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Well, thank you. Thank you very, very much. There are 44 African members of the WTO and we have nine other African countries that are in queue to accept, and I think the reason that so many of us are here, is because we know the importance of trade. We know the importance of trading at the multilateral level. We also know what that has done for our economies. We’ve been able to export much more efficiently, I think, and we have used Aid for Trade to improve our systems, to modernise procedures, to have organised policies. We have also, now a continental free trade agreement that will allow us to have the biggest, you know, not just market, but the biggest free trade area of the world, and we can learn a lot from the WTO.

Our treaty is aligned to the WTO and we can use the support in the WTO to ensure that we don’t falter, as we move along, using the lessons that we’ve learnt here, the experiences that we have, the resources that the system can afford, and to just make sure, that we are moving ahead, if we’re moving ahead in the right manner. WTO and the multilateral trading system has not been bad for us, otherwise, would not have been lining up to join. We have also been able to start trade policy courses in our countries, as a result of what the WTO has done. I remember myself being Ambassador here and starting two trade policy courses, one for Anglophone in Africa, the other one for Francophone Africa. It was six months long, which is about half of a Master’s Degree, where we just taught our middle level Officers about trade, introduced them to the agreement that existed, showed them how to benefit from trade, you know, because at the end of the day, listen, we negotiate, all of us, together. All members negotiate and we accept the results of the negotiations on a Principle of Consensus. If there’s no consensus and we have stopped agreements being adopted, because we felt that they did not respond to some of our issues and we have gone back and renegotiated them.

You know, so you have actually an opportunity here to negotiate, write some obligations that you feel you can take on. The agreement provide you with special and differential treatment. They give you the space that you need, the policy space that you need, and to develop your infant industries. The rules allow you to do that. The rules allow you to have the kind of special treatment that nobody else has because of your level of development and of course, as you graduate, things begin to change. And what one of the things that we are discussing now, and I hope that we can get an agreement on it, is for when countries started graduating from LDC to developing, yeah, we are negotiating also that those countries do not lose the benefits they enjoyed as LDCs for more than three years, because now they have, their last three years. We are negotiating for up to ten years, which will mean that you continue enjoying all the market access, due to free borders, for another ten years, yeah, as you graduate from LDC to developing.

You know, you can’t do that outside the system. You have to negotiate it within the system. The services were even for LDCs. The amendment of the TRIPS Agreement, which is supported compulsory licensing and parallel importation of ARVs, in the main for Africa by the way, because I negotiated it, you know after just seeing the devastation of HIV AIDS. If we were not in the WTO, we would not have been able to negotiate that. So, there are benefits, there are really direct benefits belonging to the system, you know, using the system to support your growth and your development, and using the special and differential treatment that is provided to developing countries, to protect your infant industry. So, I think I would rather have African countries in the system than outside, because here they get an opportunity to actually negotiate for themselves and nothing is really imposed from above.

Dr Alex Vines

And that’s an appropriate moment for us to finish. We are exactly on 18:01, so Dr Amina Mohamed, thank you very much for spending the last 45 minutes with us, on describing why you think you would make an excellent DG of the WTO. Thank you for taking all the questions. Thank you for the audience for staying with us for 45 minutes, and if you continue to want to follow this WTO candidate process, please join us next Monday, the 10^th of August, at 12:15 British Summer Time, when Dr Liam Fox will be arguing why he should become the next DG of WTO. Amina, thank you very much.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

And Dr Vines, we would be very, very happy to receive any questions that may not have been asked and they can be sent directly to us, you know, we would be happy to respond to them in writing. But I want to thank you very much for this opportunity and, you know, I hope that I can ask for support through this forum. So that anybody who’s listening out there and who has the right to select the next Director-General, I would think of me, kindly as they went to the confessionals, to talk about the preferences that they have. Thank you very much.

Dr Alex Vines

Thank you very much for the time. Thank you everybody and have a good afternoon, evening or morning, depending where you are. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

Ambassador Amina Mohamed

Thank you, Dr Vines. Thank you.