War on Ukraine: Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this special members event, Chatham House, sadly not at Chatham House, although I am at Chatham House. And we are absolutely thrilled to have with us today president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine. We are delighted, Mr. President that you could make time it in what we might euphemistically be called a very busy schedule to join Chatham House members and our guests today to share your thoughts about the war in Ukraine, where it is going, what are the priorities of the Ukrainian government and how the rest of the world can best support it, to the extent that they are willing to do so, as we know that some countries are and some counties are not.

I do want to say here that the fact that you would join Chatham House members and guests is a testament to the importance that I think you attach, to the importance of getting Ukraine’s message out to as many audiences as possible. And it has become such an important part of this war to be able to understand what is taking place and to understand real time from you and your government what is taking place. I’d say that Chatham House members as you may know come from all over the world, not just the UK, and they come from all walks of life, and they are a manifestation of the vibrant civil society that I know that you and your government and your predecessors have been cultivating in Ukraine since it became an independent democratic state in 1991.

Chatham House has been a strong supporter of a successful Ukraine. I’d like to say that we try to be critical friends and my colleague Orysia Lutsevych who runs the Ukraine forum since 2015 has had the privilege working with many Ukrainian leaders in civil society, in politics to that end. So on her behalf and on behalf of all my colleagues in Chatham House we welcome you to this online event.

Let me quickly explain the format I don’t want to take too long. In a minute President Zelenskyy will offer some opening remarks. We will then move to Q&A. I will ask some questions but you, our members, also have an opportunity to ask questions. But please do so through the Q&A function. We will not be using chat, we will not be using “raise hand.” So, put them into Q&A. I will ask the questions. It’s simpler, we have a translation. Hopefully, those of you who joined you have the choice of Ukrainian or English, please go down to the interpretation button and make your choice, and you can then participate in the meeting that way.

And finally I would simply say that this is on the record. For all of you who are here, please do feel free to use the social media and be able to enjoy it that way.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy was elected the sixth president of Ukraine in April 2019. He won a large majority over 73 percent in the second round against the former president Petro Poroshenko, sworn in early 20^th of May, and his party, won a landslide election became the first majority party in the Ukrainian parliament since its independence. As I think many of you know and I’m not going to say too much about Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s background. But I think one of the important things to note is that he got his law degree from Kyiv National Economic University, started there, as everyone here knows, when into a very successful career into the film and in comedy and I suppose there is something quite unreal in a way, Mr. President, going from playing the role of president in servant of the people, through to 2019, from 2015 to 2019, to becoming president. But nothing could be further from comedy, nothing could be further from the light-hearted nature of entertainment than the absolutely brutal reality of what is happening to Ukraine right now since it was invaded, and the leadership role that you are having to play, if I may say at the outset playing exceedingly well. We look forward to your remarks, we look forward to an engaging conversation. Thank you for joining us. Over to you president Zelenskyy.

President Zelenskyy

Thank you very much! First of all, good afternoon to everyone who has joined! It is an honour for me and thank you for your kind words! You described my surroundings and my life. It sounds a little scary that it is going to end, but we believe in victory, and we definitely believe in the positive outcomes. And I am sure that we will achieve it.

I want to extend my greetings to everyone, including you, dear Robin. Dear guests, dear friends! I’m really grateful for this opportunity to participate in this discussion.

I am also grateful that Chatham House, one of the most influential think tanks in Europe, created a special program back in 2015 for independent and in-depth studies of the Ukrainian context. These studies help to find answers to the most pressing questions. And these are the questions I would like to ask you today. I know you will ask me questions, there will be a dialogue.

But I am sure that each and every one of you understands the level of problem which the Russian invasion brought to Ukraine. This is an issue of the highest priority for us as well as for the whole world, I’m sure. As you see, not only our people face this problem but also everyone on the continent and everyone in the world. I am absolutely positive about it.

This is a full-scale invasion - one of those that Europe has seen only in the worst times of the 20th century. I would like to briefly outline some of the challenges.

The first one is the extreme brutality of the Russian Federation troops and their people, as well as the extreme contempt the Russian State shows in regards to all international conventions, the entire system of international law, and human rights, and most importantly, personally for me, to the inviolability of borders, and the integrity of states in Europe.

Why is Russia doing all this? Because they think that even if they would be held responsible for such crimes, criminal actions, it might happen or not after several decades. They simply do not believe that the international community is capable of holding them accountable for war crimes as they have a cover-up of the power of the nuclear state.

The second challenge is actually nuclear blackmail. It happened for the first time in many decades. Absolutely explicit blackmail.

Russian state-funded propagandists, speaking in their media, calculate how long it is going to take for nuclear missiles to hit the capitals of Europe. They talk about it publicly, openly. They tell how a nuclear explosion in the ocean would wash everything off the British Isles. They produce infographics. That is, they take it seriously. They brag by saying that Russia can turn any state into “nuclear ash.” Moreover, “nuclear ash” is the quote which they repeat as a mantra.

Why is this happening? I am sure, it is the feeling of impunity. They got used to the fact that sooner or later relations of all the states with Russia would come back to “business as usual.” And even now there are politicians in Europe who are not ashamed of having ties with the Russian state after everything that the Russian army has done to Ukraine.

The third challenge is that the world is a few steps away from political chaos in dozens of countries, which could be the result of food and inflation crises. By blackmailing Europe into launching the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline last year, Russia triggered a price crisis in Europe. Gazprom deliberately did not supply the required amount of gas to the market needed to cover the deficit, and as a result of all of that, gas prices in Europe reached historic highs. It hit all Europeans without exception.

Now, as part of a full-scale war against Ukraine, Russia is blocking our ports, which it has seized.

What does it cause? The global market lacks sufficient supplies of some key types of produce from Ukraine. We are talking about what we have and is a priority for the world: grain, sunflower oil, corn, other agricultural produce.

What consequences do we see? I’m sure we don’t see the full picture right now, because there is little analytics here. And I think we will see the whole scope of it in the future. In some countries, there is a shortage of sunflower oil. In some countries, agricultural product chains, which involve our supplies, are slowing down. Yet in other countries, a shortage of basic food products is expected.

All of this creates pressure on prices. In the north of Africa, in the Middle East, in Asian countries. Next, it will affect other regions of the world. And the poorest will suffer. Who always suffers? The poor. We are sure that the middle class will also suffer. Obviously, the political consequences of this can be dangerous. This is what is meant by the term “political chaos” - one of its components is food shortage, [lack of] food security.

Ladies and gentlemen!

Russia conducts war against our country. At the beginning, it was seen by many as a bilateral event only, and some even smiled, and yet some said that it was just a conflict, while Russia refers to it as something like a “military operation”… Now everyone already sees that this is something different, more serious.

Today is already the 72^nd day of a full-scale war, and we do not see its end yet. We do not see the end, and we feel that Russia has no desire to stop it. As well as we do not see full-fledged responses to all threats created by Russia.

What do we suggest to do?

Every single day since February 24^th, I and our entire team have been negotiating to obtain the necessary weapons, to agree on the necessary sanctions against Russia, to arrange the necessary cooperation in order to capture and investigate war crimes.

Every single day since the beginning of the brutal blockade of Mariupol by the Russian Army (as an example) we have been trying to find a diplomatic solution to save people’s lives and organize humanitarian corridors for their rescue.

We have been contacting everyone who can provide financial support for Ukraine. We have already started preparing a large-scale Recovery Plan for Ukraine, as we have no doubt that we will still manage to defend our independence. And we believe in the strength of the world, in our strength. This is not a belief in some kind of miracle. It is common sense that the world’s reaction to the actions of the aggressor, which Russia displays now, should be immediate.

And what is actually happening? We’ve been talking about the same things for months. For example, about the oil embargo against Russia, about blocking the entire banking sector of the terrorist state. We have been trying to get a sufficient supply of weapons for months. And I am grateful, really grateful, to those states that have been helping us from the very beginning, and keep helping constantly, every day. Because they correctly assessed the threat. But, unfortunately, not all the states assessed it that way. Even now, not every one of them assesses it this way.

Most of the challenges and threats provoked by Russia have never received full-fledged responses. Here is the main thing. So, new tools are needed, and we have to look for them constantly. New determination is needed. Something that can stop not only Russia, but also any potential aggressor.

Ukraine proposes to create a tool that is capable of making this happen. We call it U24. United24. By reloading the global security system, we must create opportunities to stop any aggression preemptively or at least within 24 hours. Or, within 24 hours, provide such assistance to a victim of aggression that will restore peace. If it is not a war, but a natural disaster or any social challenge, the world community shall provide a country or region with all the necessary help to save people within 24 hours.

With such a global response system, we will ensure that never again will millions of people be at risk of physical annihilation or deportation threat, or starvation, to put it short - annihilation. Therefore, here are specific questions to which, in my opinion, politicians, experts, and society should find answers.

And the questions I want to ask you now. What specifically can be done to ensure that accountability for war crimes inevitably comes not after decades, but sooner – as it takes place in criminal proceedings?

What specific sanctions against Russia can convince both Russia in the first place as well as all other potential aggressors in the world that international law must be respected?

What specific global solutions are needed to keep under reliable control the weapons of mass destruction that exist in the world and prevent their usage and consequently blackmailing? Even conversations about it. And what sanctions should be imposed for the blackmail of nuclear or chemical weapons usage?

And what will convince politicians around the world that these issues are urgent and practical, and not just subjects for discussions?

I hope you will propose your thoughts and answers to these questions. It is up to you. Because responses are objectively needed to all of us and the world. I am sure, every person who is watching us now will watch and ask themselves these questions every day.

And I’m sure that our proposed U24 tool can be a significant part of such responses. This is an option. We are talking about this - about our initiative. Because I believe that a large number of initiatives shows that more people understand the global nature of these challenges and the global nature of these responses.

Thank you very much for your attention! Glory to Ukraine!

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Thank you very much, President Zelenskyy, and, for laying out your thinking of where you are at the moment. I could say thank you for asking me some questions, or us some questions. I fear that if we turn this into a more typical Chatham House type of a seminar, then my members would be very upset with me because they would listen to us talking and not you talking. And perhaps what we could do is with my colleagues is actually write you a little note after this with some very specific answers. I will simply say three very quick things. How do you avoid nuclear blackmail, you don’t accept it. And I think this is some of the language we are hearing from NATO leaders in particular right now is not to accept the threat. How do you make sure that this kind of aggression is not treated with impunity, I think you need to look at this as a war of aggression, not simply the conduct of human rights, appalling abuses, and war crimes. Without the war itself, you wouldn’t have the war crime. And Chatham House has hosted a number of meetings about the concept of this being a war of aggression and how that could be then punished in court. But I think, sadly, quick justice in international law is extremely rare. So, in any case, I am not going to say any more and use up our time. But you asked extremely pertinent questions, and I think you deserve answers. We will provide some additional ones to you, if I could say later on.

If I may, just ask you one opening question from myself. I will simply say to our members, we have a hundred and sixty questions there, which we obviously not going to get through. What I would say please read the questions, because actually members of Chatham House tend to ask very good questions. So, you will find a fascinating set of perspectives just by reading through them. And also if you think any are especially good, you can upvote them, click on the little thumbs up and they will go up to the top of the sheet. And then I can go to those first and make sure some of the most popular questions are asked, it will help me do my job.

President Zelenskyy, just one question, that maybe is a broad one, it didn’t touch on what you said. Much of the world, I think, was surprised by the resistance that the Ukrainian people have presented to the invasion by Russian forces. I want to ask you, were you surprised? The Russians in Kherson, in Kharkiv, in Donbas, that they have given their lives, that they’ve been, that mayors, mayors of small villages, mayors of towns, who are often thought as being the people that the Russian forces could turn maybe to their advantage… Have you been surprised by how united Ukrainians have been in the face of this conflict? That’s my first question.

President Zelenskyy

Am I surprised? About my feelings and what kind of people we are… I will answer your question with pleasure. Because it’s nice to answer about something you know very well. I am definitely a live witness of how our people react and have reacted to Russia’s aggression. I just want to make two quick points because you said we have a dialogue, and I’d like to respond to what you’ve said about nuclear blackmail. You said that we do not accept it, and, you know, I just have this opinion, perhaps rhetorical enough, nevertheless, you and I do not accept terrorism, we just do not accept it. And with terrorists… they even say that no one talks with terrorists, military terrorists, but nevertheless, this is what happens. And this exists as a phenomenon, terrorists do exist and continue to live. So even if we… I’m not criticizing what you’ve said right now, I just want to share my opinion as a witness of what’s going in Ukraine. And everyone is worried about possibility of nuclear weapons use. That is why I say that yes, we all do not accept it, but it takes place. Can the fact that you and I do not accept it stop it? Stop this blackmail? I don’t know, I’m not sure…

And about war crimes, why do I feel this way and why did I have such a question? I completely agree with you that these are long, long, long processes, but they definitely do not work, from general point of view, the philosophy of responsibility for such crimes. They don’t work. I also tell you this as a citizen of the country that witnesses war crimes on a daily basis. And if we take recent events… Several years have passed since the MH-17 [crash], and you and I know very well that this is a long proceeding. What is the effect of this proceeding? Did it help people whose loved ones died? No! They hate the whole world and hate any legal proceedings in general. And they hate (you see, I’ve seen these people!), they hate life. And every time, and every year, they hate this life more and more. And that’s why it’s scarier for them every time to know that this process is endless. This is what I mean when I say that we need to change this structure and find responses.

As for your question about being surprised, I will tell you that I will certainly be able to tell you about it properly after the war is over. I don’t think that my answer to you will be adequate now because when all this started, our task was to unite, strengthen, and it is because I understood that only such a process, such a big fist, the united fist of the entire people can stand against Russian machinery or, also called, “military machine”, because it is a machine, and people with their bare hands, in different ways have stopped these machines, all this machinery in the villages, etc. Therefore, my answer may be banal, and I might say that I have always had confidence in our people, in their strength. But I want to be fair. I think that the citizens… I don’t wish it on anyone, but if the Russian military invaded any other country, I think everyone would defend their family, home and the country. I think that every reasonable person would do that. So I’m not surprised but confident that it’s what normal people do. And I am grateful that we have such a large number of such strong, normal, responsible citizens. And, as it turned out, very brave ones.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Thank you very much, Mr. President, and I think that the bravery is being witnessed by people around the world on a daily basis, and is hugely inspiring. Let me just move on if I may to a second question. You have focused yourself very heavily on the specific conflict in Mariupol, the attempted invasion and now and the siege of the Azovstal Steel Works. Let me ask you a sort of two-sided question. Is there anything that can stop Russia from taking Mariupol? This is a question from Jill Lawless, of the Associated Press. Her question was is there anything that that can stop Russia from taking the last parts of Mariupol? And my question added to that is if the Russians do take Mariupol fully, how does this change the shape of the war? Does it change the shape of the war? Or, in a way, have Ukrainian fighters already won a type of victory? Could you say something about Mariupol, please?

President Zelenskyy

I didn’t understand the last part of your question, maybe because of the translation…

Can something be done for Mariupol? And then with the second part… To be honest, I didn’t quite understand the content, maybe we’ll talk about the content later. It is important to answer the question, when you fully understand it. Regarding Mariupol, this is one of the hottest, most difficult moments of this war. This is an example of torture as such. There is a deliberate blockade by Russian troops, they deliberately don’t let anyone eat, they don’t let anyone bring in food; by the way, including international humanitarian organizations (they never got there to deliver food for a long, long time); they did not allow us or anyone else to do this. And they themselves do not give people any food, even though they occupied. To some people, who were not blocked in Azovstal, they gave something, but at first people refused to take anything. There were terrible examples when people had to drink water from puddles on the street, that is, they specifically turned people into non-humans because they treated them like animals, although animals cannot be treated like that; nevertheless, this took place. This is what I said about the current issues of the treatment by the military of the Russian Federation, inhumane treatment of human beings as such. Another astounding feature of this war is its brutality, this humiliating attitude, and torture. That is, the death is accompanied by some kind of torture, and not due to war, that is, it is not quite a military process. That is, this is such a genuine terrorism and hatred. And we can talk in detail about why this happens this way.

But I’m just not sure… You scared me at first saying about 160 questions… I am now answering the second one, so I am afraid that my answers are too long, but I want to tell you that I understand exactly who is responsible not only for the war, but also for this brutal treatment.

The army is responsible for this torture, that is, their armed forces will be held accountable. There will be a tribunal, that’s how it is going to be. For murders, for deaths, and for torture.

But why such cruelty? The information machine, media, of the Russian Federation is responsible for this. They succeeded in developing such hatred even before the start of the full-scale war. They have been doing this for many, many, many years. And here is the result — torture! That is, a person can change from being a good neighbour, from a long time of shared history, from the fact that many families were and are half Russian and half Ukrainian (both here, on our territory, and on the territory of the Russian Federation, there are mixed families), due to geographical and historical proximity, end up with this torture caused by this information machine. I think that Goebbels is a child compared to the adults in the Kremlin.

And this is the most terrible thing that shows the result of this war, it is the most terrible thing that a man has done! That is, without shooting, the information machine influenced the nation and prepared the grounds. Because, just imagine, eighteen to twenty-year-old people are fighting in their army. And the war began eight years ago; so, it is easy to calculate: these people were 10-12 years old at that time. That is, we are talking about information policy not only in mass media, but also in schools, universities, colleges — it is a big-scale propaganda, a propaganda machine, that is what has been done.

And I think that’s going to have to be addressed because you can give torture convictions through the courts, but you can’t clean the brains of those people [from propaganda], so it is a big problem related to the result of this propaganda. This is a big problem in Mariupol and in general throughout the country.

Mariupol could have been unlocked a long time ago if we had had the right weapons. Period! There are no more options. Today, everything is in such a state that thanks to us, the Red Cross, the UN, we finally somehow found a format - and Russia agreed - how to take out civilians from the blocked plant. We should also know that there, when civilians were exiting the plant, a shell could have torn off the head. That is, these people [Russian military men] hunted for anyone: both the military and civilians. It’s a scary story, and history will sort it all out one day.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Just the second part of the question. I know this is so important and I hate having to break the, I hate having to break it but I just wanted to ask specifically if Mariupol falls. What you think?

Yes, yes please. I’m sorry, if Mariupol falls, does this change the shape of the conflict? Does this potentially release, in your opinion, Russian forces to move North? Is it critical that you and those brave fighters hang on or have you already thought what the consequences would be if it falls?

President Zelenskyy

You should know: Mariupol will not fall not because of the heroism of our army and people, but because there is nothing to fall there. Mariupol is completely destroyed. It does not exist; they killed all living beings. There are only some locked people at what is left of the Azovstal plant. And as soon as opportunity arises, people are being taken out. I understand that Russia may want to hold a parade there on May 9. They’re interested in what I told you about, continue functioning of this information machine and that’s all. Another step in this direction. Forget them God, although God is definitely not with them! That’s what will happen.

Unlocking [of the city] depended on availability of weapons. And in the future, unlocking of similar region depends on availability of weapons - the right weapons. And if they kill people who can now be returned though humanitarian exchange (if they are military) or released (if they are civilians) or helped (if they are wounded, regardless of whether they are military or civilians) – so if they kill them, then there is nothing to talk with them about on diplomatic level. Here’s how it can ultimately change everything.

And as for the military perspective, they will still move farther, farther and farther; as far as we - and the world - allow them to go because the world should become a wall that helps us - not a wall between us, Ukraine and the Western world, no! But rather the wall between us and Russia. Here are the important things.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Thank you very much for that! Let me if I may, turn to another question from Frank Gardner, of the BBC. And I think it’s a question that’s reflected through many of the questions here that we’ve had today. It’s the following one. What is the minimum that you, Ukrainian people, that you, the President on their behalf, could accept in a peace deal with Russia? Could you accept a return to where things were on February 23^rd?

President Zelenskyy

First of all, we need to understand: I was elected by the people of Ukraine as the president of Ukraine, not as the president of “mini-Ukraine”. Therefore, this is a very important point. I would like to reach some agreements in the format of negotiations, so that people do not suffer; we have to save as many people as possible, so we have to take back as much of our territories as possible through diplomacy.

Regarding the minimum: before ending the entire war, so that we can start talking normally, as far as the word “normal” can be used here in general, I believe that the minimal step is to unlock the diplomatic format in order to stop the war between Ukraine and Russia. So, the minimum step should be restoration of the situation as it was before the full-scale invasion; you are absolutely right about it, before the 24^th [of February].

They need to step back to those temporary contact lines or demarcation lines, and take their troops there. I consider, then it will be possible to talk appropriately and rightfully. And in order for them to back away, they will also have to talk with us, and so will we. And that’s why, I understand and say again that for now… Despite the fact that they are destroying all our bridges, I still believe that not all bridges have been destroyed for this purpose.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Well, that’s a very important statement you just made there because after the horrors of Bucha, Mariupol, of all the war crimes that we discussed at the beginning, that is an important point you made about not having all bridges — metaphorical — destroyed. In that context, let me ask you a question that brings a little bit the role of allies into it. We have both the United States Administration, the Biden administration, and the British government in particular talking about victory. Victory must involve the defeat of Vladimir Putin, even that it must involve all Russian forces leaving all of territorial Ukraine. So, my question to you, Mr. President, is it helpful to have some of your key backers diplomatically and militarily setting that war aim publicly at this time? Is that helpful to you as the President of Ukraine or not?

President Zelenskyy

A very difficult question. I am not afraid of such frank statements. On the contrary, I believe that the more direct and clear statements are made, the better for Ukraine, Ukrainian society, and even for Russian society — to understand that if we do not stop all this, then — and here we are referring to this allegory again — then all bridges will be burned. And that’s why it’s important that everyone talks very directly about things. It is possible to talk during war between ourselves, talking between ourselves not allegorically. In the same way, it is necessary to help not only with diplomacy, but also with concrete steps.

And that’s why if we talk about a victory… What is this victory for us, for the European Union, for the United States, for Britain… Look: for someone, it can be Putin’s defeat. And a large percentage of our society may think so. For me, victory - and I don’t care what happens to someone, where this person is - for me, the victory of Ukraine is important. And for us, Ukraine is something that belongs to us and belonged to us. We are talking about keeping our territory and saving as many of our people as possible. For me, victory means not losing 11 million people now. For me, victory is the return of 5 million people who left abroad. I think about such things, so for me victory is to make the country, at least economically, the way it was before this terrible war. To begin with. For me, victory is for the Western world to fully understand what is happening here, and for European countries to feel the hurt that Ukraine feels. Then they will become united, then they will not be swayed by any Russian propaganda and they will help us a lot.

For me, victory is the accession of Ukraine to the European Union with all the steps, pluses and minuses, but, nevertheless, when we all talk about it, when the people of Ukraine want it so much and defend it on the Maidan during revolutions; moreover part of the challenge regarding this war comes from those times; it cannot be just like that, without results; that is why, Ukraine in the European Union is not the main victory; you cannot just disregard people who gave their lives, and therefore the victory means all their wishes coming true, all the dreams, all those important steps that Ukraine has set for itself, and the people of Ukraine are setting for themselves.

And when, for example, even now, after our refugees have come to them, someone from Europe is watching all this footage, listening to you and I now, and understanding what is happening here, when we talk about Mariupol, even when thousands of people die there, they still want to sustain, excuse me, oxygen, meaning to do nothing substantial, supporting simply nothing, like “finding a balance”, being, as they say, in the grey zone, as some say, “walking between the droplets”, without looking to the fact that it is no longer rain, but a wall of water coming down from the sky, not some droplets, do you understand what I mean?

That’s why, this is a big question for me. Cynicism and inadequacy of the leaders of certain developed societies, developed states. And the adequacy of the world is also a victory for Ukraine. It affects us.

And what will take place there? With whom? With Russia? Look, why should I think about the other side, about their military? Why should I think about their leader, the president? What will happen to them? There must be punishment for all what they have done, according to international law. This is the most important thing. And if they come here and don’t even take away the corpses of their soldiers, they don’t care about people… If they don’t care about their people, why should I care about their people? I have to think about our people and our citizens.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Thank you, Mr. President! Can I ask you a question because we have a lot of questions coming in, and I’m doing my best to run through them but…

President Zelenskyy

My answers are very long, Robin, I understand.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

They’re important answers but they’re good, but, as I said, I don’t want to frighten you by how many questions we have, I’m picking up the main ones. If I could ask the question about sanctions. There are quite a few questions about what it is that, are you getting what you want from your NATO European partners in particular, but could you say, are you satisfied with the support you’re getting, in particular, from EU nations? And let me include Germany. There is a very specific question that’s right at the top of the list of the 230 questions. You’ll be interested, and maybe surprised to know that the question at the top of 230 questions is what would you say to President Scholz, Chancellor Scholz, I should say, if you had the opportunity to meet with him, what would you discuss with Chancellor Scholz? And I think underneath that question is the whole issue of the kinds of sanctions the energy sanctions, they are imposing. Are you getting what you expected? Are you happy with what you are getting? The EU has provided €1.5 billion of funding for military support. You could never have imagined that three months ago. But I’m wondering whether it’s enough from your perspective, Mr. President Zelenskyy? And obviously you chose not to let, President Steinmeier, the President of Germany, or at least you are not interested in his visit, which makes it difficult, I think for Chancellor Scholz to visit, but what would you ask from Chancellor Scholz? Could you just say something about where we are on your attitudes and your relationship with the EU and the sanctions they have been doing?

President Zelenskyy

Look, regarding sanctions, I think the most important thing about any steps (and there are steps “for” and steps “against”) is that they should be transparent and fair. And again, it is not necessary to be a little with him and a little against him; to impose sanctions with your right hand, and sign new contracts with Russia with your left hand. It doesn’t work this way. Certainly not in the wartime. This is hypocrisy.

Sanctions should be imposed in such a way that does not require imposing the same, but a bit modified sanctions afterwards. If you impose sanctions regarding the SWIFT system against the banking system of the Russian Federation, if you are against certain financial transactions, then impose sanctions, disable the banking system of the Russian Federation — period. “We can do something, but we can’t do it there”, “some country in Europe has certain contracts with these banks, so let’s not impose sanctions here yet”, “what will Germany say about this, and what will Hungary say, and what someone else will think of this?” – you have to face the truth - there is also hypocrisy in this, and there is also business in this.

Therefore, am I satisfied with the sanctions? In general, regarding the sanctions imposed now by the European Union, the United States, Britain, in general, we are finally grateful for the current sanction policy. I my opinion, the sanctions policy was wrong, we were not heard on time and sanctions were not imposed preventively, before Russia invaded. [If they had been imposed], nothing [bad] would had happened, and if they even invaded, the sanctions would had been already in effect. That is, I believe that it was a mistake.

Secondly, we are grateful for the powerful sanctions that have been imposed.

Thirdly, if you know that Russia earns a billion a day on energy, then, excuse me, how can one’s tongue turn to say in general: “Let’s postpone something, and let’s think - in four months we will do this, in a year we will do that,” etc. This is not a place for a game. If you understand that you cannot do without this energy carrier, say that you will be able to do [solve this problem] in 2 months, negotiate… Do not make exceptions for certain countries, like “this is possible, that is not possible”… We must act together.

This is what the united European Union is all about. This is the meaning of the phrase “European Union”. We, not being in the European Union, know the meaning of this phrase more deeply than some countries that have been EU members for many, many years.

Therefore, regarding energy carriers: at the end of the day we will still have a complete embargo on their energy carriers. It will be difficult, yes, it will be difficult for everyone at home, but European families will be alive, unlike ours. And if some European leaders will not do this, then you will realize [the necessity of doing this] when Russian troops will be on your borders. And when the first rocket flies, as it was with us, and when their rockets were ripping off limbs of children and adults, you would understand that the Nord Stream-2, 3, and (good riddance!) even the Nord Stream -100 - they all are not worth the price of human life.

Unfortunately, until grief comes to one’s home, knocks [on the door], you don’t believe, until you open the door and it comes in and burns your family, you won’t understand. Unfortunately, such a component is present in Europe.

As for Russia, let everyone pay attention: whatever they talk about, they do it afterward, all of it or part of it. They implement every threat. And when their politicians say: “We will reach Germany,” these are their thoughts, these are their dreams. And when the European Union will be weakened and when - God forbid! — Ukraine falls, they would come to Germany. It is a matter of years. Their generations will be ready for this because of the information policy which we discussed at the beginning. And, believe me, they will justify all their shameful steps.

As for Mr Scholz, I think Mr. Scholz should visit [Ukraine]. I invite him and I have repeatedly invited him to come to Ukraine. The most powerful political step that seems reasonable to me would be a meeting on May 9 in Kyiv. I don’t want to explain the reasons, I think that your society is smart and understands them.

Sometimes in history you need to take certain steps to unite, even if there is some coldness in relationships. But yesterday, for example, I spoke with President Steinmeier. And I invited him too. And I said, “Please extend my invitation to Mr. Chancellor.” Ukraine is open, and nowadays, when we have the war, our doors are not just open, we just have no doors. We are open! Come and support us!

Regarding sanctions in general, I believe that there is an iron curtain that Russia has set up and is doing step by step what the Soviet Union once did; and I think that they should not be stopped in doing this. Let them make this iron curtain. They will remove it [once]. Another generation of their state will remove it, when they will feel the consequences of having this curtain in place, which they themselves created with their bloody steps and information.

Therefore, if there is this iron curtain, then there cannot be any export or import relations with Russia, while they resort to nuclear blackmail, to the use of chemical weapons around the world, to the occupation of other states where they were present in Soviet times, and to the murders in our state and the occupation of our territories.

When all this becomes free and their brains become free, when the whole world becomes free from their threats, then you and I will stand on the stool to remove this iron curtain.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Mr President if we have time, because I know we’re on the hour, but if I could ask you one last question. I think it’s a very important one. You talked about the sense of impunity that, you believe, Vladimir Putin has, that he can do what he wants. There are only 39 countries by my count imposing sanctions right now. So even if he draws the bloody curtain or the curtain with his bloody hand across the middle of Europe, he still seems to have plenty of open doors now whether to India, or to China, or to many, many other countries in Africa, many democracies, that are willing to continue trading. And who see this conflict, and the rising food crisis, and all of the stuff you talked about before, as actually somehow being the fault of Ukraine and Russia and NATO, it’s like this old cold war from the last century, how do you connect with them, how do you make them understand that this is also, the rising of prices is not your fault, it’s not NATO’s fault, this is a choice made in the Kremlin, made by Vladimir Putin. How are you connecting to that much bigger community? If you want justice, more of the world has to feel the injustice. And at the moment, sadly, the world is quite divided on this. What can you do about that

President Zelenskyy

The world has heard us, and it is necessary to constantly talk to the world. And to give specific examples. Today, Europe and the world are united around Ukraine. And yes, not the whole world [supports us], but we are talking about it loudly enough, thanks to you, thanks to journalists, thanks to various media platforms, thanks to social media. Today, thank God, there are enough this kind of tools in the world to make our voice heard.

World leaders do not show enough energy. If they realize that the war is not [just] in Ukraine… I loudly fight for Ukraine, because I am the president of Ukraine. In the same way, each of the presidents should also fight very loudly in order to say later, “I fought very loudly for my country, and that is why the war did not come to my country.” And because today we are dying together with Ukrainians there, on the battlefield.”

So when every leader realizes this, I will not sing solo anymore. Thanks God! It will really be a chorus. A chorus of powerful leaders who will certainly be able to convey this important message and this energy to the societies of those countries that do not yet support our policy or the policy of civilized Europe. I don’t think they are uncivilized; I don’t mean to offend them now; I mean they are not confident about this choice.

We ourselves must be confident about our message. And then we will bring that confidence. It is much better to infect people with this [confidence] than with COVID-19. That is why, it is important to dedicate all your strength and be exhausted every day; and when you wake up in the morning, ask yourself, “What did I do for Ukraine today?”. Because the leader will ask themselves this question about Ukraine, but he will still defend this country. Just like ordinary people who go out on the streets with our flags, and it will be a joint victory.

Once again: this victory is not over Putin because it is a victory over this terror and over terrorism. And he and his troops, etc., are the face, only the face of this “operation.” That’s what I think is the most important thing - uniting the world around the truth.

Today, I know that the press and media cannot talk about Ukraine every day. And in a month they will see that it is necessary to find some other topics, so that they have a lot of contacts or that their newspapers and magazines are well sold; they think, “we already wrote about this topic, we have been talking about it for a very long time,” and the topic will gradually disappear, as always in such cases. And this is a big mistake. They should make sure that every day, on the front page, where they talk about what is happening in their country, they should [also] talk about what is happening in Ukraine. Because there is a war in Ukraine, and this war is a joint war, so there will be a joint victory. As soon as we all realize that this is a joint war. Those are my thoughts.

Sir Robin Niblett KCMG

Thank you very much, President Zelenskyy! I think we must wrap this up. If I may just say four very quick closing things to you and to our guests here, who’ve stayed on this call. Very large number оf members.

Number one. Speaking to you, and hearing you today it feels like I’m looking at a time warp back to 1939 and 1940 and we’re speaking to one of the leaders who was having to fight some of the horrors of that era. And it is remarkable that we are living in this dual world right now. Shocking but I find your explanations that your sensitivity to the human aspects of what is happening here and the way people’s minds have been turned and manipulated, especially important because manipulation of individuals was one of the features of the 1930s, you know the early 1930s, not just the late 1930s. So, I thought that was very important. That’s number one.

Number two. We had one of our members asked the question: what can individuals do beyond giving money? What can individuals do, not governments? You haven’t got time to answer that question, but I would simply say that being informed, making sure that the stakes are shared amongst our communities and spread beyond the 1500 people or so on this call to so many others, and especially to the people outside the 39 countries, that is going to be incredibly important. Because at the moment not enough of the world understands the stakes. It is a Northern conflict. And I want to say, thirdly, that Chatham House will continue to play its part in this role through our Ukraine Forum, but more broadly through our engagements, through all of our work and your talk today has been inspirational to us in that sense, so we appreciate very much your time.

And that lets me say the last thing which is that in your long life we look forward to welcoming you to Chatham House in St. James’s Square, in more peaceful times. And hopefully times that have lived up to the values that you’ve described to us today, and that they are victorious.

So, thank you so much for your time, we really appreciate it. And thank you, members, and I’m afraid I gave up entirely trying to keep track of the questions. I saw the rough gist of them, hopefully I captured enough of them but 255 questions, is definitely a record. And I know you answered the bulk of them, President Zelenskyy, without reading them so that was good.