Dame Rosalind Marsden
Well, good afternoon, everyone. My name is Rosalind Marsden, and I’m an Associate Fellow here at Chatham House. Welcome to everyone in the hall today. Thank you very much for coming, and, also, to all of those who are joining this meeting online. The di – just to say, the discussion today will be on the record. It is going to be recorded and livestreamed, and could I just say that there should be no filming, unless you’ve had prior permission from Chatham House. It’s a great honour and a pleasure for me, to welcome Dr Abdalla Hamdok as our speaker today.
Now, before we go into the substance of the event, I’m sure all of you – all of us taking part would like to express our condolences to the many, many Sudanese people who have lost loved ones, friends and relatives in the current war. And to sh – and also to show our respect and solidarity with those who have been injured, who have suffered from sexual violence, who’ve been detained or tortured, and the many millions of people who’ve been internally displaced, or are refugees in other countries and are living in very difficult conditions, or are suffering in many other ways. So, before we start, may I invite all of you just to stand for a one minute silence, thank you [pause – 05:17-05:49].
Thank you very much [pause]. So, I’m just going to say a few words by way of introduction to set the scene and to introduce Dr Hamdok, and then I will invite Dr Hamdok to speak, to address us for about 20 minutes, and then we will open the floor for questions and answers. Dr Hamdok served as the Prime Minister of Sudan during the transitional period after the revolution, until his government was overthrown by a military coup in October 2021 by Generals Burhan and Hemedti, a coup that was backed by Islamists and Members of the old regime, and some of the armed movements.
Dr Hamdok himself was, as you know, placed under house arrest. Many of his Ministers and Advisers were imprisoned. Those who carried out the coup described it as a “course correction,” but it led to a rapid deterioration in the situation on all fronts. Dr Hamdok signed an agreement with military actors in November 2021 to try to save lives, but he then resigned as Prime Minister in January 2022, when that agreement was not implemented.
Dr Hamdok is currently the Chair of the Co-ordination of Civil Democratic Forces, known as Tagadom. Tagadom, I understand, doesn’t claim to represent all Sudanese civilians, but it is, at the moment, the broadest coalition of anti-war, pro-democracy groups. And we look forward to hearing from Dr Hamdok what efforts Tagadom is making to reach out to other anti-war, pro-democracy civilian groups, to try to align on a minimum shared platform, on issues of ending the war, restoring democracy and forming a single national, non-partisan professional army, mandated to protect civilians rather than the regime. And, also, to hear what Tagadom is doing, or can do, to help empower grassroots Sudanese voices, especially women and youth, the Emergency Response Rooms and the resistance committees, and to engage with also, traditional actors, including tribal chiefs, who are very – still very influential in rural areas.
Now, since the start of the war on the 25th of Au – of April 2023, the situation in Sudan can only be described as catastrophic. Sudan is now the biggest humanitarian and displacement crisis in the world and millions are facing manmade famine, because both sides in the conflict are using hunger as a weapon of war. The crisis in Sudan has the potential to destabilise the entire region, to create large new migration flows to Europe, and to attract extremist groups. Yet, the crisis is still not receiving anything like the high-level political attention, and – it deserves from Western governments, and the – or indeed, from the international media.
International and regional mediation efforts have stalled or achieved only limited progress. We hear a lot of statements of condemnation from the international community, but after 18 months of war, these are still – these have still had very limited impact on the ground. So, we look forward to hearing from Dr Hamdok what concrete action he would like to see from the international community, and particularly from the United Kingdom, which has such strong historical and people-to-people links with Sudan. And which is the penholder on Sudan in the UN Security Council and will be taking over the Chair of the Council next month, in other words, starting from tomorrow.
The conflict has become increasingly regionalised, with many countries providing financial, military or political support to the warring parties. There’s also a growing risk of fragmentation and disintegration of the country. And recent weeks have seen some of the dead – have been some of the deadliest since the start of the war, with a new offensive by the Sudan Armed Forces, the SAF, that started in late September, intensified aerial bombing by the Sudanese Air Force, causing many civilian casualties, reports of mass killing and sexual violence, including brutal attacks by the Rapid Support Force in Gezira State, and of course, the continued killings as a result of the Rapid Support Forces siege of El Fasher. And the fighting is only expected to get worse with the start of the dry season next month.
In May, Chatham House held a public event to highlight the atrocities committed in Darfur against non-Arab tribes in Al-Junaynah by the RSF and the – and allied militia, and the risk of further mass atrocities and ethnically targeted killing in and around El Fasher. The longer the war has gone on, the more it has evolved into an ethnic war, aggravated by the use of hate speech and ethnic narratives by both sides, as a means of mobilisation and recruitment to serve their political agendas. This has caused untold damage to the fabric of Sudanese society, which is likely to take a long time to repair, even when the war comes to an end.
We look forward to hearing from Dr Hamdok today what he thinks civilians can do to put greater pressure on the warring parties and their backers to agree to a ceasefire, and whether he thinks civilians should play – what role he thinks civilians should play in ceasefire talks, from which they have been excluded so far. Given that a nationwide ceasefire still seems likely to be some way off, sadly, also, what mechanisms does he think should be put in place to protect civilians, including by the international community? And what should be done to address the humanitarian crisis and to support the heroic efforts of local frontline Responders and grassroots Emergency Response Rooms who were nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize?
The war has been variously described, as a power struggle between two ambitious Generals, by the Rapid Support Force as a war against the 1956 state, by the Sudanese Armed Forces as a war of dignity and a war against a rebellious militia. It – and it also has elements of a proxy war by regional interests. But for many in the anti-war, pro-democracy civilian camp, this war is primarily a war against the revolution, against the dreams of the Sudanese people for a better future, and against democratic transformation by elements of the old regime who want to get back into power.
The hardline elements in the Sudan Islamic Movement are backing the Sudanese Armed Forces and calling for continuation of the war. However, there are elements of the old regime present on both sides of the conflict, as both the Rapid Support Force and the army, in its current form, are both creations of the Bashir regime. It’s a war rooted in Sudan’s long history of marginalisation of the peripheries, lack of an agreed national identity, militarisation of politics and the economy, the creation of multiple militias and a culture of impunity. Nobody has been held to account for past atrocities and these are now being repeated by many of the same actors.
So, coming to my conclusion, I would stress that above all, this seems to be a war against civilians. Now, when the Commander of the Rapid Support Force in Gezira State, Commander Keikal, recently defected to the Sudanese Armed Forces and was shown shaking hands with the local SAF Commander, many people were reminded of the words of the Palestinian Poet, Mahmoud Darwish, who famously said, “The wars will end and the leaders will shake hands, but that old woman will remain waiting for her martyred son, and that girl will wait for her beloved husband, and the children will wait for their heroic father. I do not know who sold the homeland, but I know who paid the price.”
I will now invite Dr Hamdok to address us for about 20 minutes and then, after that, we will open the floor for discussion. Dr Hamdok, the floor is yours.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Thank you very much, Chair Rosalind, and good afternoon, everybody. I must say that I’m quite happy to be back to Chatham House. Last time I was here, I think it was 2016 talking from this platform. Of course, then I was talking about industrialisation, transformation in Africa and all this. Today, we are meeting in quite a different time, meeting in very sad occasion about Sudan. I think you would agree with me, the crisis in Sudan today is probably the most serious and the largest crisis in the world. You all know the statistics, the loss of life, more than 150,000. The number is increasing and I believe we might never be able to know how many people we lost in this world – in this war.
There are about more than ten million internally displaced people, over 25 million facing starvation and hunger. People might die with lack of access to food more than bullets. There are more than two million refugees. You can name it, destruction of infrastructure, loss of human capital, collapse of the economy, collapse of the state. But most worrying, recent development, which really, as Sudanese, is a cause for concern for us, the killing that is related to ethnicity.
Member
Can you speak louder, please?
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah?
Member
Would you talk louder, please?
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Can you hear?
Member
No, I don’t…
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
I don’t know, the mic, is it not…?
Dame Rosalind Marsden
You may just need to raise your voice slightly if it sounds…
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Okay.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
That’s fine.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
That’s fine, can you hear me now?
Member
Yes, it’s alright now.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Is it okay?
Member
I’ve got you now.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah, I thought with the – I mean, in this developed world here, if you whisper, then it becomes very loud, but sorry, yeah. Okay, I think I did not need to tell you about the numbers and all that. It is all over the place. But I think the most worrying sign, a recent development of this war, is the killing for ethnicity, regional and all that. It creates a rift in our society, which would become extremely challenging to put it back, to arch it back, and it’s very worrying. It actually create an environment and a situation for probably leading to the partitioning of the country. Many people talk about the Libyan Model, two states, whatever. I don’t think if Sudan disintegrate will end up in two states, could be multiple failed states, and we need to avoid that catastrophic situation. And I think when we talk about this crisis, we really do not want to appeal to the moral aspect of it, which is important, but this crisis will have far much repercussions for all of us, in the region, and even here in Europe, migration, terrorism, trade issues across the Red Sea and all that. So, I think let us work together to arrest it.
But let me, as an entry point to this, I would like to call it, Rosalind, brief introduction of 20 minutes, I think my entry point, let us share some what I would call understanding the context, the root causes of this conflict, because this is the first step in reaching a solution that will be lasting. This is against the misconception of this war as a war between two Generals, and that is why, when the war erupted, the first attempt was to bring the two Generals in Jeddah. They managed to bring them and shake hands, which is very naive way of looking at this conflict.
There are a number of issues, let me just maybe quickly flag some of them. On the historical aspect of the development of Sudan, I think number one is the historical development model we inherited from the colonial rule, but continued through the national rule. The integration of Sudan into the global value chain at the lower end of it, as a producer of – an exporter of raw material. It is not unique to Sudan, the whole Global South suffering from this. But it’s also created another aspect which is related to this historical model, is the marginalisation, the centre periphery dynamics, which also created a rift in the country. But linked to this, failure to manage diversity. We’re a very diversified country, probably of over 500 ethnic groups and linguistic differences. Diversity is never a bad thing. Managed well, it should be a source of strength.
The second aspect I want to briefly mention is the political. Our troubled history, from independence to today, dominated by the military. Out of 68 years of national rule, 55 of them under military rule, and you can see how they messed up the country. We had civil wars for the last 68 years. Our first civil war started 1955, one year before independence, and it continued. War in the South, which has eventually led to the separation of the South, war in Darfur, and we all know the genocide of Darfur, South Kordofan, the Nuba Mountains, Blue Nile, the East, and all that. This what I would call clear signs of state fragility, loss of authority, capacity, legitimacy and all that.
The third aspect is the economic. This crisis came about under major economic crisis, if you look at all the indicators, mounting debt, inflation, budget deficit, and all those indicators. But the most important aspect of the collapse of the economy is the destruction and the collapse of the rural economy, which create poverty, very high unemployment, particularly among the young people, who became a fertile ground for recruitment, for armed groups, for all that.
And last one, this aspect is the regional dimension of the conflict. Sudan, bordering seven countries, there is very serious geopolitics in the region. The Red Sea, as we know, this is very important waterway for global trade and all that, the Nile water, the Ethiopian GERD, and all the conflict in that, but also border conflicts. We have tension and disputed – conflict all over borders. With – to the north with Egypt, Hayaleb, Shalateen, to the East with Ethiopia, Al-Fashaga. Even more recently, our own brothers and sisters in South Sudan, we have the longest stretch with – between the North and the South, about 200 kilometres, we have six places we could not demarcate because of the dispute.
Let me turn now to the – you know, when the war erupted in April last year, there were a number of initiatives externally driven, regional and international, but also, domestic national initiatives. They faced a number of challenges and problems. I would like to quickly go through them as a prelude to what we are proposing in Tagadom as a way of – a proposal or a strategy to address this. I think number one challenge in all these initiatives is the fragmentation among the regional international community and how to manage the risk related to the dynamics of competition and divergent interest. You know so well, when the war started, we had Manama, supported, mediated by two countries, Saudi Arabia and the US. In Jeddah, I mean, yes, Jeddah started in May.
We felt initially, Jeddah was bringing some hope, but quickly got stalled. We went to Manama, which was much better, brought Egypt and UAE, expanded. Manama produced a document, had it been implemented, would have been – it would have gone a long way in addressing this, but it was shot down by the military, by the army. And we went most recently to Alps, which better expanded, but still, it did not produce anything. Of course there are many others, AU, IGAD, the Arab League, neighbouring country initiatives, particularly the initiative by Egypt, which was probably one of the only, I guess, initiative that brought together a number of actors of different backgrounds.
The other challenge is how to deal with the issue of fragmentation among the civilians. As civilians, we have always been accused by our partners that, “You are fragmented, you are not united, there is no one civilian voice,” and all that. This is true, but is historically also something that is happening, and I don’t think – and – there is any country in the world that people will be asked to be unified in the sense that unless you are living in a monolithic one-party state country. I think difference is healthy, if we could manage it well and come to consensus on major issues.
There were – probably people talk about more than 20 initiatives put forward by various civil society organisations. I don’t see them as a negative thing, if we could converge into common denominator that would lead us to probably a better outcome. There are issues related to one of our major group, the Resistance Committees. These are flat structures, young, vibrant youth who were very instrumental in the revolution and all that, but also, they have issues and problems in the sense that these are flat structures, they don’t have hierarchy. They take forever to reach a decision and all that, and we all know the outcome of the Arab Spring, which went through the same model, which ended up failing everywhere in the region.
Against this background of the fragmentation, we were able to work on Tagadom, Rosalind. I’m very happy that you mentioned it. Tagadom came out of that environment, we started – actually this month, witnessed the anniversary of when we had our first meeting in Addis Ababa last October. It was a preliminary meeting, and we worked on until May this year. We had our founding convention. I think we were able to bring together more than 600 people in Addis Ababa, against all the challenges, bringing people from inside, from about 24 countries worldwide and all that, but also, representing all segments of society, young, old, you can name it, professionals, Politicians, tribal leaders, religious leaders, and all that. Tagadom has five blocs, political parties, civil society, trade union and professionals, resistant committees, and some of the armed groups. And I will share with you in a minute what we have put forward as a proposal to address this crisis. There are a number of other issues relating to these challenges facing the various initiatives, but we can discuss that in the course of the day.
Let me turn now to what we call a civilian perspective on ending the war, and this is a proposal put forward by Tagadom, but shared widely with almost everybody whom we could reach, political friends, partners, and all that, inside and outside the country. We premise it on two main pillars. Number one, we strongly believe there is no military solution to this conflict. We can only solve it through a political process, through dialogue. And we also call for a unified peace process with multiple simultaneous tracks. Current conflicts cannot be managed all of it in one place, but we wanted a unified centre, others that can feed into it. The main objective of this, number one, is to stop and end the war. Of course, these are two different processes, stopping the war, dealing with issues of ceasefires and all that, but ending the war, this is where you would require a political process that would address the root causes and all that. And the second objective is to restore the democratic transition.
We thought this proposal, or vision, has to be based on a number of principles. Let me flag some of them. First, we need to be able to address the root causes of the crisis, which I just outlined. Number two, preserving and upholding the unity of the country. We have no illusions that we have to be very committed and work together to preserve the unity of Sudan in the interest of all its people. Third, we need to have a unified national army that reflects the diversity of the country and does not involve in political and economic activities. You saw that the model that has been practised for the last 30 years and the reform regime was domination of the army on the economic activities and all that, crowding out private sector and all this.
Fourth, sustainable peace and democratic transformation, it has to be linked to, and tied, to the 18 of – the December 18 revolution, aspirations and goals of freedom, peace and justice. The current war is meant precisely to kill the revolution, to kill the aspiration of our people. We have to build any solution, any vision on that. Five, it has to be built obviously on equal citizenship. What led the South to separate is this practice and perception that you cannot live in a country when you are treated as a second-class citizen. We have to base our constitution, our solution, on this equal citizenship. We need – number six, to address the issue of the religion and the state. We have to come to a conclusion on this. This is something that divided us for so many years, and I think it’s high time to come to a conclusion on this, to uphold a democratic constitution that respect the diversity and all that.
And then, finally, on this, of course, this is not an exhaustive list, the issue of justice and transitional justice has to be uphold. I think we are okay on time.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
I think you’ve got about four or five minutes.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah, I’m sure, can…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
More or less, I think.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah, slightly more on that. Okay, the – this vision have three component. One, and this is the most important one and the top priority, addressing humanitarian crisis and protection of civilian. The second component is a ceasefire process, which meaning addressing the issue of stopping the war, and the third one is a political dialogue process, which is ending the war. Let me quickly address each one of them.
When addressing the humanitarian and protection of the civilian, we need to base it on the following demand and issues that has to be addressed for it to happen. First, we need to have unfettered access, cross-border and cross-line, with a strong monitoring mechanism. Here we can benefit from previous experience in Sudan, like the Operation Lifeline Sudan, which happened under war, with – there was no ceasefire, but they were able to provide assistance.
Second, protection of the civilian, R2P as an instrument. We need to – actually, I must say here, we’re very much disappointed with the recent report by the – and it’s not only us, most of the world, of the Secretary-General report to the Security Council, which fell short of saying anything, excuses and all that. I think we have to work on R2P, think about enforcing a no-fly zone, safe haven, safe zones inside the country, even to the point where we should boldly talk about bringing boots on the ground to protect the civilians. This is extremely important issue.
Support community initiatives. We are very delighted in all this misery to see the Nobel Prize nominating Emergency Response Rooms for the Prize this year. Although they didn’t get it, we thought this is probably the only institution out of the four nominated which has all the attributes and the characteristic that they could have. But the fact that they were nominated, it gave us hope and courage, and these are people working in an extremely difficult situation and environment.
The fourth aspect is the – addressing the plight of the refugees, or refugees particularly in the neighbouring countries, living under extremely appalling conditions. And here there is no access issues, no border, no cross, nothing. All what is needed is the support that could reach these people. There are issues relating to the UN need to appoint – these are technical issues, a Regional Co-ordinator, who could manage this very complex operation and will appeal, also, to the international community to maybe fulfil their promises on the pledges.
On the second aspect, which is on the ceasefire process, which is the – I will just quickly go through this, the issue of stopping the war, we think ceasefire has to be integrated as part of the whole. It cannot – we cannot think about ceasefire as just a military issue. It is as military as political, and that has – understanding has to be firm there. It should be based on existing agreements and build on them incrementally, and, also, it should have an effective monitoring mechanism, using technology and all other things.
The last and third aspect of this process, the political dialogue process which is ending the war. And here, I think number one, there is a need to uphold the ownership of the Sudanese of the process. You cannot expect us to own a process where you do – where we’re not part of it. The best design process, which is not participatory and people are not consulted on it, will not see the light. It should be inclusive. Create wide front against the war, and emphasise the role of community groups, particularly civil society, grassroots, tribal, religious leaders, women groups, youth and all that. The role of the international community, we think all these issues we would like the international community to work with us on them, and put pressure on the belligerence on that, and we hope that under – here we are in Chatham House in UK, UK as a penholder, to work with us on all these things I’ve outlined, whether it is R2P or no-fly zone, or safe havens and all that, and we have huge expectation on this.
Finally, we put forward the mechanism to address this, and our proposal in Tagadom, which is a roundtable conference. This is not a new idea in Sudan. We had it in the 60s, after October Revolution. We are not ready to the name, can you call it Sou – Sudanese dialogue, you call it any name, but it is a proposal to bring together the widest front possible to address these issues. Expected two – the only two maybe issues that we think we need to agree on is that people against the war, and for democratic transitions, in an environment where now we have two camps, people who were calling for peace and ending the war, and those who are calling warmongers and calling for the war and destruction. Well, the choices are very clear.
And as I said earlier, this is call for a unified platform, preferably in the current environment under the African Union, but with other tracks feeding into that. I will stop here and thank you very much, Rosalind. I think I exceeded [applause] this with few minutes. Thank you [applause].
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Dr Hancock, thank you very much, indeed, for that. I will now open the floor for questions. If you want – if you would like to ask a question, please could you raise your hand, if you can stay seated, and a microphone will be brought to you. And before you ask a question, may I ask you also to give your name and affiliation. I would just stress that as time is very limited, and I’m sure there will be a lot of people wanting to ask questions, may I ask you as a courtesy to others, to ask brief, concise questions, so that as many people as possible can express their view. And, also, please abide by the, sort of, Chatham House environment of respectful discussion.
Those online can submit questions in the Q&A box, which is at the bottom of the Zoom feed. That’s for those of you following on Zoom. The – this meeting is also being livestreamed on Facebook. Unfortunately, we can’t take live questions from those who are watching on Facebook. So, I will take a group of questions, maybe up to five questions to start with. Yes, this gentleman here.
Abdallah Idriss Abugarda
Okay, thank you very much. Thank you for the opportunity, I’ve got a comment and…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Please could you give your name and affiliation…
Abdallah Idriss Abugarda
Ah, okay.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
…and ask a question?
Abdallah Idriss Abugarda
My name is Abdallah Idriss, from Darfur Diaspora Association. Actually, I’ve got a comment, and the question. Mr Hamdok, do you agree with me that the Sudanese Politician, including you, are responsible for the failure of the Sudan? And this will take me to the question that Hemedti, in his recent statement mentions that [inaudible – 41:06] Framework Agreement was the reason of sparking the war between the faction. Do you agree with him in this respe – in this perspective, in this section?
The second question is we are – at the civil society organisation, we are really concerned about the human rights violation in Sudan, and there is the same country that fuelling the war, including the UAE. Have Tagadom take any – taken any action in this, or have you advised that the UAE, or the other country, to stop this? Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much. Can I take that person right at the back? Yes.
Isham Albreda
First of all, thank you so much. My name is Isham Albreda, a Member of a Broad National Movement. I have two questions, the first question’s for the international community. Why the international community don’t want to stop the war, as there is very clear mechanism to stop the war? Because now that all the Sudanese people, they’re stuck and being, like, displaced, killed, and the house has been occupied by Janjaweed and by, as well, the military, as well. They start killed us by aeroplane. The second question is I’m going to make it in Arabic for Dr Hamdok, very clear. Dr Hamdok…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Can you please make it in English?
Isham Albreda
I can make it in English, but it’s because the majority is the Sudanese here, and…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Well, yeah, but we’re conducting this meeting in English.
Isham Albreda
…and – yeah, yeah, of course, because there is the specific things, because it’s a political questions. We are…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
I’m afraid – please could you do it in English?
Isham Albreda
Yeah, yeah, I do it in English then, no problem. I mean, Hamdok, in the transition period, I mean, as, like, now you try to change from Freedom of Change to Tagadom. Is Tagadom – all the Sudanese they know this Tagadom is the Freedom of Change. I just would like to know exactly, I mean, why still, Hamdok, you resigned as a Prime Minister and still, you want to come again to lead this transition? There is many of Sudanese people has been killed during this time, and because we are, as a Broad National Movement, and our President Ali Mahmoud Hassanein, he stated very clearly, “Don’t sit with the army,” and you don’t listen to us, and you go through that, and you put us now in very critical situation. How we can’t avoid that one? And even all the Sudanese now, they don’t want any – to see any these faces, they used to be in the government before. Thank you so much.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much. This third row, yes, Gill?
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yes, here, here. It’s here, yes, here. You can give this gentleman.
Gill Lusk
My name is Gill Lusk and I worked for many years at Africa Confidential. Thank you, Dr Hamdok, for your speech. You mentioned the possibility of boots on the ground, whose boots might they be? Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Here, this one.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
And we’ll take one from this side of the room. Could you – you can stay seated.
Nazar Yousif Eltahir
Thank you. My name is Nazar Yousif Eltahir, from the SPLM-Revolutionary and Current – and Democratic Current. My key question to the Honourable Dr Hamdok is, what’s Tagadom going to do to the Sudanese to protect their right to live? And number two, what Tagadom is going to do for the refugees so they can exercise their right in the neighbouring countries, in education and health and accessing all the services all stated on Geneva Convention? Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Okay, thank you, and one on this side of the room. That side, there.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
There is one, this one here.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Yes, I know, but we’ll come – have a second round.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Okay.
Dan
Hi, my name’s Dan, I work at ORB International, but I’m kind of here in a personal capacity.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
What is your question?
Dan
In an ideal peace, would there be a return to the kind of investigations that were there just before you were ousted? So, that’s into the 2019 massacre, and investigations into the military…
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
What was the question?
Dan
…owned companies.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
I didn’t see. What was the question?
Dan
That’s it.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
So, are you referring to the Empowerment Dismantling Committee?
Dan
Yes.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
You are? Yes, okay. Well, that’s five questions. I know there are more people with their hands up. We’ll have a second round, so, you know, please relax. Dr Hamdok, would you like to answer those? Now, I – as I have it, we have a question, do you agree with what General Hemedti said…
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
I have them.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
…when he said the Framework Agreement was the reason for starting the war? What action have Tagadom taken in terms of the role of external actors, including the UAE?
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Rosalind, I have them.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Why don’t the international community want to stop the war? Do – the – is the intention to return for the – to return to government again? And what is being done by Tagadom to support the refugees who are living in neighbouring countries to access services? And then the final question was, if you were to return to government, would the Empowerment Dismantling Committee be revived and their work resumed?
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Thank you very much. I think – let me take this one about intent. On the issue, the first one of the statement by General Hemedti about the Framework Agreement as a reason for the war. Let me say that I’m actually here, not just myself, I’m here with a number of my colleagues from Tagadom. I guess they will be in a better place to answer, because I was not party to the Framework Agreement. I resigned one year and a half before – close to that, before the war started. But I do not think the Framework Agreement was the cause of the war, to the contrary. Has the Framework Agreement been signed and implemented would have avoided this catastrophe. That’s not correct.
On the role of external actors, including, as you said, UAE and others, you know, in the world of today, there is not even a single village that can stay isolated from what’s happening. Our crisis, it is very unfortunate, there are so many interferences, from our neighbours, from far away. We would like as Sudanese to see one thing. Those who are intervening in our crisis, and those who are not intervening, to help us with one thing, help us to stop this war and stop the suffering of our people. That takes stopping supplying arms to all the parties, whether it is SAF or RSF. That is the only assured way of stopping this war.
My friend from – our martyr, Ali Mahmoud Hassanein, party, a person I met so many times when we had the IDEA office in Khartoum and the training after the CPA in 2005, a very committed Sudanese, and I think his views were very much respected. I wasn’t there actually when you refer to this discussion in Khartoum and all that. These are some of the things – the corridors of those discussions, I have some of the colleagues here who would know it better than me.
But I think equating FFC to Tagadom is not correct. I myself was not a Member of the FCC. There are so many people in this FF – Tagadom today who are not Members of the FCC. So, why – take the Resistance Committees, they were not part of this, some of the armed groups, many of – in the civil society and all that. So, I think this Tagadom came about as a result of this war, to address the war. And I think it’s a work in progress. I don’t think in Tagadom we claim to represent the whole universe of Sudan. We’re one party, probably we are the largest group alliance. But there are so many others, and that’s why we’re extending our hand to everybody, and we put it in writing that we have so many levels of co-operation. Those who want to join Tagadom are welcome, those who want to have just an agreement, memorandum of understanding, those who don’t want all this but join in a final platform, a wider front, name it. We are very flexible, with one intention, let us unite to stop this suffering.
On the issue of why do I come back to lead? Actually, I am the last person who have any interest of going back to public office. So, take it from me, I only came back – I resigned and left – I did my fair share in this, I think, I only came back when the war erupted. You cannot see your country up in flames and just watch. And that’s why, on the eve of the war, when we hear that things are going very murky and it became a very clear crisis, I phoned both Hemedti and Burhan, and they both assured me – I told them, “Please do anything to avoid the war.” They both said, “We are not going to fire the first bullet.”
But anyway, the war started, and if you remember on the 16 or 17, I had the first press conference addressing the issue of the war and calling for the war to stop. And from that day, I went all over the region, all over the world, advocating for unity of the Sudanese to stop the war. My mission ends on the day we stop this war. Out of these 45 million or more Sudanese, there are so many qualified people, better than Hamdok, to lead the Sudan in the next phase. So, I rest assured, my brother, I have no intentions of going back to office or to lead or anything. There’s no personal interest in this. I just feel – and what drive me today is really the suffering of our people. I do not know how can this military on both sides see all these sufferings and their conscious rest. This is ugly. You have to work together to stop it, and that is what drive me, nothing else [applause].
If I can say, my sister from Africa Confidential, that is okay, the boots on the ground. I think Sudan is not an exception, we’re not only country that has boots on the ground. There are models, in Sudan itself, just not long ago, we had three missions. UNAMID had more than 40,000 troops from all over the world. I guess the African Union, also, some of the African leaders, proposed that they could supply troops, but this would require co-operation between Africans and non-Africans. They need not only for Soldiers, but also equipments and all that. So, if there would be meeting of minds from both sides, we can, we can do that, because we need to actually protect our civilians, and that’s the only assured way of doing that.
On the what are we doing on the refugee plight and their rights and all that? We are working on this, actually, in in most of the countries we went to, whether it is Ethiopia or Kenya or Uganda. In these three countries, we met with the representatives of refugees, we established national committees in those places, and linked them to the host countries. The question is Tagadom has no resources to support this, but we have been talking to the countries, and some countries we were having quite fruitful and smooth relationships allowing people to work. Like in Uganda, the issue of visa is much better than other places. Kenya, we have challenges in some of the countries, in Egypt, in Ethiopia, and all that. But these are issues everywhere we went in these countries, and we have raised it with the top leadership in those countries, and I think we want also others to help in this. We want also the UN agency, the UNHCR, entrusted with this, to work with them and address this.
On the Empowerment – dismantlement of the Empowerment Committee, you know, this committee was intended to create an environment of a level platform that will dismantle the party state in favour of a nation state. You cannot have democracy when all the institutions of the state, the military, public sector, everything, is dominated by one party. This is a recipe for disaster. That’s why we said, “Let us create an environment whereby the asset that were stolen, the – all the issues relating to the institutions and all that, put it right.” That was the main design of it, and I think this mission has to be achieved, otherwise, we will just mo – be moving in a vicious circle. I’ll end here.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much indeed. Okay, yes, this gentleman.
Dr Siddique Ibrahim
Thank you very much. My name is Dr Siddique Ibrahim, University of Wales. I’m Tagadom Rep in the UK, representing Uma Bharti. First of all, I would like to thank you and Chatham House for organising this event today, and would like to thank also Dr Abdalla for his time and his useful briefing. My first question.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Could I just ask everyone, one question only, please, because we’ve got a lot of people…
Dr Siddique Ibrahim
Yes, we need to thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
…who want to speak? Thank you.
Dr Siddique Ibrahim
I’m Rep of Tagadom. Regarding the issue of the conflict in Sudan, after the Addis Ababa conference, the Sudanese people is very excited that they will make breakthrough in the conflict by bringing the two party together, and restore peace and stability in Sudan. That was not happen. What is in Tagadom capacity to be part of the dialogue and escalate the issue with the international community and the Security Council? Second question.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Just one question. Thank you. Okay, we’ll have one at the back [pause]. I think we had a hand up there.
Hamid Khalafallah
Thank you so much for the opportunity. My name is Hamid Khalafallah. I’m a PhD student at the University of Manchester. As Dr Hamdok very helpfully explained that Tagadom is not, you know, claiming to represent all Sudanese civilians, and that it’s not useful or realistic to expect all Sudanese civilians to come and, you know, one unified body. That is not realistic. So, I want to ask if Tagadom is, you know, considering making any, like, measures to make space and use the leverage that you have to provide space for other Sudanese civilian groups, women groups, youth groups, and so on, to be present in rooms and on tables, where, you know, negotiations and processes are being held, and so on? Not necessarily within Tagadom umbrella, but alongside Tagadom, within these rooms.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much. Yes, we’ll have this hand here, yes.
Abdel Azim El-Hassan
First of all, my name is Abdel Azim El-Hassan from…
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Oh, sure.
Abdel Azim El-Hassan
…SRG. First of all, thank you, Hamdok, and your colleague, for the efforts you are doing for our country. You alluded to the idea of introducing the Blue Helmet, or any force of peacekeeping forces to stop the war. Have you actually proposed this or taken this into your discussion with the British Government and other agencies? And what’s the prospect of having troops, peacekeeping troops, in Sudan? Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thanks you very much indeed. Yes?
Abbas Hamza
My name is Abbas Hamza, I’m a Freelance Journalist and a Member of Broad National Movement. Just a comment, please. Sudanese people have been paying hefty prices since…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Could we have a question, as well…
Abbas Hamza
Yes….
Dame Rosalind Marsden
…very quickly? Thank you.
Abbas Hamza
…please. Sudanese people have been paying hefty prices since 1989 and we don’t need to repeat the same mistakes. So, FFC and Dr Hamdok and his team from Tagadom had been in power for two and a half years and they didn’t manage to achieve one single goals of our revolutions. So, I think they were not, and they are not, and they won’t be, the – perfectly ideal for the position. My – okay, first question, is Dr Hamdok…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Well, one question.
Abbas Hamza
Okay, Dr Hamdok, did you thoroughly, going back to 2019, did you thoroughly read the constitutional dis – constitutional document, because it transmitted almost 80% of the all powers and authority to al-Burhan directly? Did you read it, did you understand it and accept to be a converse to be unreal Prime Minister for Sudanese people? You have talked about political process. What do you mean, is it for – to stop the war? What do you mean? Is it going to be a new bloody sharing power agreement between Tagadom and the warring parties? Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much. We’ll have this, over here. I think there was a hand up that – yes.
Salma Dawood
Yeah, thank you, thank you, Dr Hamdok. My name is Salma Dawood, and I’m an Independent Communications Consultant, and I was a bit intimidated when you said “mention your affiliation” because I’m not affiliated at the moment. My question is it really pains me to see the very weak, if not non-existent, communications and messaging coming out of Tagadom, allowing for mis and disinformation to dominate the narrative, and further polarising the Sudanese people. And I think it’s the main mandate of Tagadom is to bring the Sudanese people together.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah.
Salma Dawood
Can we hope or wish for better messaging coming out of Tagadom that’s more consistent? Thank you.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you. I’ll just take one more, and I’ll have this gentleman here.
Ammar Hamouda
Thanks, thanks for Chatham House, and Dr Hamdok for this valuable speech. It’s a very one question. My name is Ammar Hamouda from Unionist Alliance Party. The question is about the declaration for principles that happened with the RFS. Is there any possible another declaration from SAF, as it will be of no value unless it was signed by two parties? Is there any possible things like that, any communications, any – something in this way? Thank you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much, and before Dr Hamdok, I ask you to answer those questions from the floor, I’ll just take two questions that are online, if I may. One from Rania Suleiman, who says, “Thank you very much for all your efforts to stop the war. However, unfortunately Tagadom has lost the trust of Sudanese people due to lack of clear condemnation of RSF crimes. To be an equal distance on both conflicting parties doesn’t mean silence when war crimes are committed from either of the parties. Why is Tagadom not condemning that?” And then a second question, “In view of the atrocities committed by the Rapid Support Force, isn’t it appropriate to cancel the Addis Declaration which was signed with them?” Thank you. So, I think if you could cope with those [pause].
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Sure. I guess this is the last round or…?
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Yes.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Okay, I think the question by Siddique is about the role of the international community. I think in my presentation I have alluded to that, yeah. Just to be just more precise is the – when I said we were disappointed with the statement by the SG of the UN, I think we need to be bold about this. Let’s put all these issues on the table. We know the difficulties in the current geopolitical environment. We talk about R2P, no-fly zone and all these things. Of course, these are all elements of a Chapter 7 involvement. It’s extremely challenging and difficult in this climate, but that should not stop us from proposing it and looking to means and ways of addressing this, yeah. So, I think in our engagement with the international community, we should not shy from putting this on the table.
Hamid Khalafallah, yeah, I’m very delighted to see somebody from Manchester. Remind me by those days, which faculty are you there?
Hamid Khalafallah
Global Development Institute.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Okay, Global Dev – is this a new institute or what?
Hamid Khalafallah
[Inaudible – 65:41].
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah, in our days in the 80s, it was not there. Yeah, I thought it was Dover or in another place. Okay, anyway, your question about Tagadom providing space for others. So, I think I alluded to that, we have – I said we have three levels. Tagadom is open hands, expect calling or whoever want to join, it is fine. Those who want to have an collaboration, it’s okay, fine. Those who wanted just to have – to work together on maybe assignments on the broad front, it’s also fine, so, it’s a very flexible, and Tagadom itself is a project in progress, it’s a work in progress. It’s one year old. So, I think it’s extremely flexible in accepting all this and building it. Yeah, we – of course, we are the first to confess that we are not fulfilling this, but we are aspiring and we are working towards that.
And I think in this process, we have met a number of major actors in this space. I’m sure you saw the Nairobi Declaration I signed with Abdel Aziz al-Hilu and Abdul Wahid al-Nur. It’s a step in that direction. You saw our convention in Addis, attended by SPLM-North, by the PCP and many others. These are all powers, I think, and affiliations and all that, and we hope to be able to work together. I think the second – or the meeting that was organised, let me put it that way, by the AU in August, brought together a number of actors whom I think came about because of the preparatory work that, in Tagadom and others, we worked on, and that work made it a much better meeting.
Marhaba, my friend, Abdel Azim, Dr Abdel Azim El-Hassan, it’s very nice to see you after all this period. I think on the issue of the peace forces, yes, we talked about it with many people, and we are not the only people who are advocating for this. There are many others who are saying this. The question is, how do we make it happen? It’s not an easy thing, and it would require a lot of maybe mobilisation, convincing, discussions and all that, but it’s not something that is impossible. We saw recently the commitment made by Kenya to send troops to Haiti, which is all the way across the Atlantic, when next door there are people, and the President of Kenya was advocating for this from first day, that Africans should send troops into Sudan to stop this war. So, there are there are some people who are very much showing and making and voicing commitment in that direction.
On the issue of Abbas, the – there were no achievements in the transitional period. I don’t think I’m the right person to talk about that. We leave it to the Sudanese people to compare what we were doing and what is happening today, [applause]. I’ll leave it there, I’ll leave it there.
Abbas Hamza
You were the Prime Minister.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
No, I’m saying I don’t want to judge my work. I leave it to the Sudanese people to judge it, and you are a Journalist, so you can write on that, yeah. But I guess, I think I can say one thing, during the transition, we gave hope to the Sudanese people [applause]. We gave hope to the Sudanese people, and I think Sudan was moving in a right direction and almost taking off, aborted by the coup. The coup itself happened because of that, but that’s another story.
Selma, I think you are absolutely spot on on the issue of the media, whether it was during the transition or now. The media is what really defeated us. We need to do more on this. It is something that we are fighting against a force that is well-resourced, of – and, you know, very well, media would require resources, and all that. But I think I’ve been saying this everywhere I went, that the momentum that led to the victory of the revolution, it was led by social media, by vibrant campaigns and all that. Once the regime was defeated, this taken a backseat, retreated. We need to rekindle this. And I think here you are in the diaspora, have a very important role for you to play, my friend, the Journalist here, this is a role of – the Journalists should be playing this, rather than just apportioning blames and counter blames and all that. Let us all fold our sleeves and work on this. Nobody will do it for us, we’ll have to do it ourselves.
I think the issue of the – Ammar, I think you raised the issue of SAF…
Ammar Hamouda
Signature.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
…signature with…
Ammar Hamouda
To be by both sides.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah, actually, when – and this is also responding to the last question.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
To the other one, yes.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Yeah, the other one, when we sign the Addis Declaration, early this year or – yeah, this was early this year, end of December, early – I think it was 2nd of January, 2nd of January, yeah, early this year, with RSF, the background to this we wrote to both of them, to SAF and RSF. RSF responded, we met with them in Addis and we signed Addis Declaration, and as you know, it has three components, which is addressing the crisis very well. But in that declaration, we made it very clear that this document can only work if the three part got together on it, to address the current crisis.
The fact that the last part did not come to the table made it difficult for that to be implemented, because it has to be – by the three of them. And over the months and years, we’ve been talking to and communicating with the army, and with the intention that let us stop the suffering of our people today before tomorrow. And we are actually hoping that this will happen, this pressure with whatever, but whether that declaration, or a new declaration, or moving to a third corner or anything, what is important is to embark on a process that will stop this war, yeah. So, Rosalind…
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Hmmm hmm.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
…thank you so much.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
There was just one question about whether you – whether Tagadom has done enough to – also, to condemn atrocities and crimes by the Rapid Support Force in your public statements.
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
It’s very strange, because if you ask the Rapid Support Forces, they will tell you, Tagadom, if the army committed an atrocity somewhere, we condemning it, but we do not forget to put also a footnote that also, RSF is did this, this, this, this. We are – in this conflict, let’s make it very clear, we are not neutral. We are committed to the cause of our Sudanese people, [applause] nothing else, and in that sense we have been very consistent in the condemnation of the atrocities, committed by either side. And we will continue doing that, because we owe it to our people, not to anybody, but anyway, thank you so much, this has been quite a enlightening thing, yeah. Back to you.
Dame Rosalind Marsden
Thank you very much indeed, Dr Hamdok, and I’m really sorry we have to bring the event to an end now. I apologise to those who would have liked to have asked questions, but we’ve already overrun on time, and thank you for your participation. And I would particularly like to express my thanks to Dr Hamdok for making himself available on a public platform, and for taking the time to answer such a wide range of questions so fully. And I think it gives us hope to hear a very – a strong and clear civilian voice talking about civilian percept – perspectives on ending the war. So, may I ask you all to – just to thank our speaker [applause]?
Dr Abdalla Hamdok
Thank you [applause].
