Anne Gallagher
[Applause] Citizens of the Commonwealth, here in London and tuning in from around the world, good morning, good afternoon and good evening. I’m delighted to welcome you to this event, which has been organised by the Commonwealth Foundation, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and Chatham House. And to confirm, this event is on the record, it’s being recorded and it’s being livestreamed.
Over the next 90 minutes, we’re being given a unique opportunity to hear directly from the three candidates nominated to be next Secretary-General of the Commonwealth. Excellencies Mamadou, Shirley, Joshua, thank you so much for your willingness to engage with us and for your dedication to the Commonwealth.
For some, it’s tempting to see the Commonwealth as a relic, a fading echo of a complicated and troubled past, but I believe we have the chance here today, and in the months ahead, to prove that assumption wrong. After five years as Head of the Commonwealth Civil Society arm, it’s clear to me that the 2.7 billion citizens of our Commonwealth want this organisation to work. They want an institution that shares their values and their hopes for the future. The next Secretary-General will play a crucial role in steering the Commonwealth towards a future that we can all share.
The next Secretary-General must not only ensure the Commonwealth’s survival. They have to be able to work with member states and many Commonwealth partners, to shape the Commonwealth into a powerful force, one that we can leverage to pursue justice, dignity and prosperity for everyone, everywhere. We should never forget that at its core, the Commonwealth is a values-based organisation. Democracy, human rights, good governance, these are the principles that unite us. But ideals only matter if they’re put into practice, and let’s be honest, over cro – across such a diverse membership, with varying political and social landscapes, living up to values is no easy task.
They can seem subject to interpretation, even compromise, but let me be clear, these values are not imposed from above, they’re not relics of the past. They are the shared aspirations of Commonwealth citizens themselves, deeply held and fiercely felt across our diverse family of nations. At the Commonwealth Foundation, we’re committed to ensuring that the voices of the people, especially those that are too often sidelined, are heard, and that they help shape the future of this institution. We believe in the power of civil society in partnerships between government and their people, and in a democracy that works for everyone.
The world is watching, not just to see who will lead, but to understand what this organisation is and what its leaders truly stand for. I know that today, our three candidates will rise to that challenge. The convening of this debate says a great deal about why the Commonwealth is different to other intergovernmental organisations. It’s not yet standard practice for potential leaders of such organisations to present themselves to those they’re hoping to serve. Who knows? Perhaps the UN is watching and in two years, when it’s time to select the new Secretary-General for the UN, the candidates for that post might be engaging with the people. Democracy does have a way of catching on.
My thanks again to our candidates and to you all, whether you’re here in London or joining virtually, your engagement matters. You are the people of the Commonwealth. You are the people of the Charter. It’s now my great pleasure to introduce our moderator, the inimitable Zeinab Badawi, best known for her broadcasting work, including on Hard Talk and Global Questions at the BBC. Zeinab is also the Founder of the production company, Kush Communications, which created the acclaimed and groundbreaking 20-part series, “The History of Africa with Zeinab Badawi.” Most recently, she published a book, “An African History of Africa,” a Sunday Times bestseller, offering an epic, sweeping history of the oldest inhabited continent on the planet, told through the voices of Africans themselves. Zeinab, over to you [applause].
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you very much, indeed, Anne. That was Anne Gallagher, CEO of the Commonwealth Foundation, there, with her opening remarks. Hello, honourable guests. I see many friends in the audience here. It’s my great pleasure to be with all of you. Just to say some introductory remarks about what to expect today. Hello to everybody here in the studio and of course, joining us virtually from across the world. Welcome to this, what I’m sure is going to be a pivotal debate on The Future of the Commonwealth.
So, this afternoon we are all gathering, of course, at a significant moment in the history of this diverse family of nations, 56 independent states. It’s really grown in the last few years. Home to 2.7 billion people and the Commonwealth, as we all know, spans continents, cultures and generations, but today, it stands at a crossroads, frankly, grappling with both its rich legacy and the challenges of a fast-changing global landscape. The world is very different from when the Commonwealth was first formulated. So, the key questions facing us is, can the Commonwealth remain or be relevant, effective and true to the values it was founded upon?
So, at the heart of the Commonwealth’s mission, as we’ve just heard, are the ideals of democracy, human rights, equality in the rule of law. Yet increasingly, these values have been called into question, both within member states and in the international arena. And many have asked, has the Commonwealth simply become an association of convenience, where ideals take a backseat in political expediency? Can it inspire the young, the marginalised and the hopeful across its member nations? And most critically, how can the Commonwealth, with its shared history, stand united in addressing the modern-day threats to democracy, peace and the health of our planet?
So, the election of the next Commonwealth Secretary-General takes place at the Heads of Government meeting in Samoa this October, and it will have a profound impact on how the people of the Commonwealth will be answering these questions now and in the years ahead. This is, of course, a position that demands leadership at the highest level and the new Secretary-General must chart a course for the future, ensuring the Commonwealth is a force in global co-operation, promoting sustainable development and supporting its young people, who make up more than half of its population.
Our three candidates, Mamadou Tangara from The Gambia, the Honourable Shirley Botchwey from Ghana and Mr Joshua Setipa of Lesotho, clearly these candidates are, of course, all Africans, who represent more than a third of the Commonwealth member states. And each of them are going to be telling us about their vision for the future of this organisation. I should say that this debate is co-convened by the Commonwealth Foundation, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and Chatham House.
So, the stakes are very high. Our world is fragile, fractured and increasingly multipolar, so we want to understand how and whether the Commonwealth can better position itself. And we want to hear what our three candidates are, what their vision is for questions such as the systemic issues that the Commonwealth has, the values enshrined in its common – in the Charter don’t always align with practices on the ground. And also, issues like the pressing one of reparations for enslavement and colonialism, these demands are growing louder from affected nations as they face a series of domestic challenges and inequalities. So, these are some of the difficult issues where there are competing interests, of course, within the Commonwealth itself, for our candidates to respond to.
So, let me invite all the – do you know? First of all, let me invite our first candidate who’s going to be speaking, Dr Mamadou Tangara, who has been Gambia’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, International Co-operation and Gambians Abroad since 2018 [applause]. And [applause] let me invite our second speaker, who’s going to go next, is Joshua Setipa from Lesotho [applause], and the Honourable Shirley Botchwey, who’s going to be speaking third [applause]. So, please sit down. So, each of them will make an opening statement of about five minutes and then, we’ll have a little bit of a discussion. I have questions that have been submitted online, and then, I will ask for some very short and pertinent questions from you here with us. And my job is to try to ensure parity, so that’s going to be a challenge for me.
So, Dr Mamadou Tangara, as I said, you’ve been Gambian’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, International Co-operation, and since 2018, this is the second time round for you, you previously held this post from 2010-2012, you’ve also been a former Minister – a Minister for Higher Education, Science and Research. And you also served as Ambassador and Permanent Representative of Gambia’s Mission to the UN in New York. So, given all of that and your background, tell us why you are best positioned to become the new Secretary-General of the Commonwealth. Your time starts now.
HE Mamadou Tangara
Okay, and thank you very much. First and foremost, I sincerely want to thank all of you for being present here. For me, it’s an honour to bring you greetings from The Gambia and I pay tribute to God Almighty for being here with you today. I’m a strong believer and I – whatever I do, God is central in whatever I do. And I’m also grateful for my parents for taking me to school, because none of my parents went to school, but my father told me that “With education, the sky is the limit.” And I was mainly motivated for me to continue and be – all the time, try to be the best in the class, because my father promised to get me a bicycle if I happened to be the first in the class. I worked very hard up to PhD level. I didn’t get the bicycle then. But one of the main motivation, also, was to make my mother proud, because I come from a society where when you succeed, your success is stuff of the community, but when you fail, your mother is the one who is blamed for your failure. So, I really wanted to make her proud.
The joy of this trust and responsibility that it brings to me to – I’m saying it to recall my humble beginnings and the blurry ideas I have about the Commonwealth was during Commonwealth Days when you see people dress in colourful attires. So, from that day, I realised the importance of diversity, cultural diversity. And that brings to my mind the words of a great African thinker, Amadou Hampâté-Bâ, when he said that “La beauté de la tapisserie persane vient de la variété et de la diversité de ses couleurs,” that “The beauty of the Persian tapestry comes from the variety and the diversity of its colours.” And we are blessed to be a member of a Commonwealth of Nations where we have diverse nation and where we can leverage our diversity to put emphasis on things that can bring us together. Use our diversity to promote unity.
And having served with the UN, I realise that the world, it’s one big family and if we’ve not learnt any lesson from the COVID pandemic, I think we would have miss a great opportunity to know that – to understand that we are inter-related in this world. What affects one directly, affects all of us, some more directly than others. During the COVID pandemic, we had to pool our resources together to fight it. And I always say that, without being cynical, that it’s a very democratic virus that does not need passport or visa to travel. All of us were affected, so we had to work together, leaving no-one behind.
And I want to say that my relentless commitment to serving humanity in the past 30 years has taught me useful lessons of values that preserve human dignity, which is the Commonwealth of Nations – values that the Commonwealth of Nation are championing. The relevance of the Commonwealth continues to recommend individual groups, associations and civil society around the world to redouble their efforts in the face of political uncertainties and climate change, to maintain our communities together to collectively harness the diversity of values that bind us together as the Commonwealth of Nations. And to do so we are saying that it’s a neocolonial institution.
Even myself, during my days as a student, we used to say the same thing, but when you get familiar with the organisation, I was privileged to attend the Commonwealth Conference – Summit in Perth and the last one in Rwanda, you realise that there is no-one imposing anything on anyone. You have sovereign countries that have decided to come together. The past is the past. There is not much we can do about it, but we have to leverage the opportunities offered by the past to build a better future. We remember the past. We have the duty to remember, le devoir rəˈmembər, as they would say in French, but we should not stay in the past. Let’s learn lessons from the past to live in a better future and – to live in the present and work on a better future.
Project ourself into the future to see that we need to work together to face challenges like climate change, youth unemployment and the issue of migration. Migration is key to this, because part and parcel – migration is part and parcel of human history, but I believe that if you put – pool together our resources, these are challenges that we can face together.
I remember President Diouf before the migration crisis hit the wall, was saying that “Si rien n’est fait pour arrêter cela – pour créer des opportunités pour les jeunes, il n’y a pas de mur – pas de loi qui puisse arrêter cette vague qui va déferler sur l’Europe.” “If nothing is done to stop this – to create opportunities for the young one, there is no wall – no law that can stop this wave that is going to storm Europe.” Unfortunately, we’ve found ourself in this situation, but together, I think we can find a solution to it. Thank you, Zeinab.
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you. It’s amazing how quickly [applause] – I said, it’s amazing how quickly five minutes go, isn’t it? You were just warming up. Okay, fine. Joshua Setipa is our second speaker. Now, Joshua, you were appointed by the UN Secretary-General as the first Managing Director of the UN Technology Bank for Least Developed Countries in November 2018. You have also served as Minister of Trade and Industry in your native Lesotho and as Chief Executive of the Lesotho National Development Corporation, and you’ve also held senior roles at the World Trade Organization, the World Bank, United Nations, as well as the Commonwealth Secretariat here. So, your time starts now. Thank you.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Thank you very much. Let me say how I am delighted to be back at Chatham House today, to share with you my views on the future of the Commonwealth. I believe – I also believe that my esteemed colleagues from The Gambia and Ghana will concur that your presence here today, along with many others participating online, reflects the significance – significant interest in the Commonwealth and its future. We should also recall that on this today 23 years ago, the tragic events of 9/11 shook the world to its core and the world as we knew it changed forever. This seismic change did not, however, result in a retreat in Commonwealth leadership when it came to confronting the new global realities. Rather, what we saw was a heightened and renewed effort in strengthening multilateralism by then – by the then Commonwealth Secretary-General, Don McKinnon.
A few days ago, the Commonwealth lost its longest serving Secretary-General, Sir Shridath Sonny Ramphal of Guyana, who was fondly known as Sonny Ramphal. Sir Ramphal continued – confronted two of the most significant challenges in the history of the Commonwealth, White minority rule in Rhodesia and Apartheid in South Africa. Sir Ramphal leaves behind a profound legacy characterised by compassion, visionary leadership, significant impact and an unwavering commitment to the values and principles of the Commonwealth.
In my efforts to draw on the experiences of previous Secretaries-General, my meeting with Sir Ramphal was not possible due to his failing health. However, I was privileged to have the opportunity to sit down with both Don McKinnon and Chief Emeka Anyaoku, who gave me deep insights into their greatest achievements, which they cited as a highlight of their term in office. And these achievements significantly enhanced the Commonwealth’s position on the global political landscape.
I was taken aback by the scale of what they were able to achieve through the quiet diplomacy of the Commonwealth, which is often not publicly documented. This helped me to appreciate the questions often raised about the relevance of the Commonwealth that stem from that lack of visibility of the Comm – of the organisation’s significant successes, which have ranged from leading global efforts to dismantle White minority rule in Rhodesia, Apartheid in South Africa and restoring and shoring up multiparty democracy across Africa, Asia and the Pacific, which, in my view, underscores the Commonwealth’s continued relevance.
This culture of quiet diplomacy of the Commonwealth has continued to contribute towards global peace and security and so, I’m confident that if I were to ask the current Secretary-General, the Right Honourable Patricia Scotland KC, about her most notable accomplishments, her response would most likely be the work of the good offices of the Secretary-General across the Commonwealth, including in Zambia, in Kenya and in my own country, Lesotho, where I was able to see it first-hand. And also, of course, her ongoing efforts in The Gambia – in Gabon. This is just the tip of the iceberg of which the Commonwealth has contributed towards global peace and security over the last 75 years and will continue to make the Commonwealth relevant and a force for good in addressing key issues of global governance.
Therefore, when questioning the relevance of the Commonwealth, it is my view that it should be seen through the lens of a political association of equal and independent countries with a shared commitment to values and principles enshrined to the Commonwealth Charter, and it should not be seen through the lens of its colonial past.
In my view, the history of this organisation informs the shared vision fundamentally anchored in the core values and principles of the Commonwealth Charter, which protect and advance the aspirations of a fisherman in Samoa, a teacher in Pakistan, a seamstress in Lesotho, and of course, the creative artist in Malta. Who must del – for whom we must deliver tangible results that reflect our continued commitment to the Commonwealth.
And in conclusion, let me also state that the development legacy of this institution is reflected in the offices it places on small states. Thank you very much.
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you very much, indeed, Joshua Setipa [applause]. And our final opening statement comes from The Honourable Shirley Botchwey. Shirley, you’re a Lawyer, Diplomat and Politician. You’ve served as Minister for Foreign Affairs and Regional Integration of Ghana since 2017. As Foreign Minister, you’ve led the Council of Ministers of the 15-member Economic Community of West African States, ECOWAS, for two successive terms, until now. And Shirley, you’ve also served as a Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and Industry and you were an MP for 16 years. You previously worked as a Marketing and Communications Consultant. Your time starts now. Thank you.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Thank you very much, Zeinab, and friends. Your coming in your numbers means that there is hope and a lot of potential in the Commonwealth, and I must say that the Commonwealth is meaningful if it impacts the lives of its citizens and safeguards our planet. Let me thank Commonwealth Foundation and the CPA and Chatham House for facilitating this dialogue and I also wish to pay tribute to the enduring legacy of Sonny Ramphal, who passed away recently. May he rest in peace.
I believe the challenges experienced in the Commonwealth, over the past few years, has affected our funding, has affected our potential to build resilience and improve the lives of our people and achieve sustainable development. Today, we face climatic events, extreme, sea level rise, we face economic malaise, as well as declining support for democracy and threats to democracy and human rights, including misinformation and disinformation.
For me, as a candidate with experience from both the private and the public sectors, I’m offering leadership, based on my qualification, track record, which will, I believe, serve us well to address these challenges, and I’d like to introduce myself a bit to you. I was a Parliamentarian for 16 years. I served at the ECOWAS Parliament for four years. I’ve held ministerial positions, as Zeinab has just said, and for four years, I was also Shadow Foreign Minister. And for the eight years that I’ve been Minister, I have successfully managed an organisation the size of the – of Ghana’s Foreign Ministry and I’ve modernised the – its services across the world and set up the Foreign Service Institute.
I took Ghana to the UN Security Council and during our two-year period, I co-sponsored with Norway Resolution 2634, criminalising piracy in the Gulf of Guinea. I also led the African group in the historic Resolution 2719, which allows UN funding for Africa peace-led operations. This have stalled for 16 years.
I would also provide the leadership for the regional strategy aimed at defeating terrorism. And I was Chair of ECOWAS Council of Me – Ministers. I led reforms of the ECOWAS Commission, which resulted in savings for the Commission, and I believe that this experience will be relevant for making the Commonwealth optimise its resources. I also negotiated transitions from unconstitutional takeovers to democratic rule. This is very similar to the good offices of the Secretary-General. I’ve represented Africa in G7 ministerial discussions on safeguarding democracy and development co-operation. I’ve, for several years, also been a member of CMAG and of CFAMM.
So, I believe, with my multilateral experience in global networks, it will go a long way to ensure that the Secretariat is led in a way that brings results. I desire for me the Commonwealth to be a leader for democratic renewal and for a board response to climate change and for a development co-operation framework that guarantees inclusive economic growth, guaranteed social mobility and effective social protection for all generations. And through my extensive engagement with leaders across the world, I have been able to shape my priorities and for me, democracy, good governance, Commonwealth values, is the overarching one. Trade and investment is another, youth education, skills innovation and startups, climate change, small island developing states and small states, managing resources for an effective Commonwealth institution.
So, realising these priorities, they require great focus on strategic partnerships to make the most of our resources and increase impact. So, having been a four-term Parliamentarian, I understand the mandate of the CPA and I intend to work closely with the CPA. I also intend to work closely with the Foundation because I’ve worked closely with civil society organisations to enhance policymaking and programme delivery. So, I believe that collaboration is key. I am thankful that a majority of our member states have embraced by vision and candidature, and I’m of the firm view that the Commonwealth needs to rally around candidates with the best chance of harnessing a mandate that will move the Commonwealth forward.
We’ve all talked about the potential of the Commonwealth, and we see the potential, and what we need to do is to move it from potential into realisation. This Commonwealth has…
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…achieved a lot and I believe that it can get even better. Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you, Shirley, thank you [applause]. You were exploiting your position of distance from me, not being able to catch my eye. I was, yeah, I was clearing my throat very loudly there. Thank you all of you. So, that’s the pitch from our three wannabe Secretary-Generals of the Commonwealth. It’s going to be a tough contest.
Let – just pick up something and I’d like you all to comment on it. Joshua, you talked about the role of ‘quiet diplomacy’ for the Secretary-General, and that’s something that a lot of Diplomats espouse. Kofi Annan used to say, “I won’t go around with a megaphone,” and, you know, Thabo Mbeki the same in South Africa. But when do you judge it is right to speak up when you see violations happening? Do you always just take the quiet approach? Because surely, the citizens of the Commonwealth want to know that their leaders are actually calling out violations, human rights abuses and all the rest of it. When do you speak out and when you do stick to your quiet diplomacy track?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Thank you very much. The – over the past couple of years, the Commonwealth leaders have articulated a process under which the Secretary-General can trigger, or can intervene, or at least begin to engage, prior to a situation erupting into a full-blown crisis. And those guidelines make it – really provide clear guidance in terms of early warning systems that would allow an SG to begin to make enquiries and engage with the leaders in that particular country to say…
Zeinab Badawi
So, you’ll play by the rules?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
You play by the rules that of course, it leaves enough room for the Secretary-General to be able to use their own diplomatic skills to also engage quietly and informally to ensure that what the signals they are saying are going to, or have the potential, to lead into a full-blown crisis.
Zeinab Badawi
So, it would be a, kind of, collective decision, you feel, about when you speak up and when you don’t?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
No, I think there’s…
Zeinab Badawi
You think?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
I think the Secretary-General prov – takes initiative. It is us to him and once the situation begins to evolve, he has the flexibility.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, okay, let’s see what the others say to this.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
Mamadou Tangara, when do you speak quietly and use your – or when do you use your megaphone? ‘Cause, you know, this is – the apparent failure of the Commonwealth to speak out when its values are violated has been very much a strong recurring theme in discussions and debates around its future, especially since the release of the Eminent Persons Report in 2011. So, would you, as Secretary-General, speak out publicly, or when wouldn’t you?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, when it’s necessary, I will speak out publicly, and I will give you a concrete example. I always say…
Zeinab Badawi
Oh, thank you.
HE Mamadou Tangara
…that well, diplomacy is done behind closed doors, if you know the intricacies of diplomacy. But when it’s time to speak, you have to speak loud and clear and in 2016 in The Gambia, we had a very severe situation when we had a political impasse. I was in the – at the UN, serving as Permanent Representative, and for a week we were celebrated as the beacon of democracy because my then boss graciously accepted to concede defeat and everybody was jubilated. But I always reminded people at the African Group, and I remember Babatunde of UNFPA, of blessed memory, I was in a hall and they were celebrating The Gambia. But I told him, “Your Excellency, I’m sorry to disappoint you, but we have to be very vigilant. Let’s make sure that the verdict of the people is respected.”
I went to the then Chair of the Peacebuilding Commission, Ambassador Kamau, not to mention him, for the Peacebuilding Commission to issue a release for the verdict of the people to be respected. They say, “Now, Mamadou, you are panicking. What is going on?” I say, “What I’m seeing coming is not good.” And then, one week later, the man change his decision, and I call my colleagues. I say, “This is a decisive moment in our history. We have to take a decision. Let’s not be blinded by the privileges to cling to power. We’ve lost, let’s leave with dignity.” I say, “We cannot be one week the pride of Africa and the second week, the laughing stock of the world.”
Zeinab Badawi
Yeah, hmmm hmm.
HE Mamadou Tangara
So, we decided to mobilise and speak loud and clear and make sure that the verdict of the people stood, with the support, of course, of all the colleagues in New York, with the support of our High Commissioner who was advising the Security Council. We were able to avoid a major conflict and of course, with the support of the ECOWAS region.
Zeinab Badawi
So, that was…
HE Mamadou Tangara
So, then…
Zeinab Badawi
…safety in numbers then…
HE Mamadou Tangara
Yeah, then…
Zeinab Badawi
…for you there?
HE Mamadou Tangara
…you need to…
Zeinab Badawi
You were calling in on…?
HE Mamadou Tangara
You need to speak.
Zeinab Badawi
If…
HE Mamadou Tangara
And then we went and spoke clearly, and we got the support…
Zeinab Badawi
So, is that…
HE Mamadou Tangara
…and overwhelmingly…
Zeinab Badawi
…how you would…
HE Mamadou Tangara
Of course.
Zeinab Badawi
Is that how you would operate?
HE Mamadou Tangara
When it…
Zeinab Badawi
As the Commonwealth, you would go and seek allies, different organisations…
HE Mamadou Tangara
Of course.
Zeinab Badawi
…come together, act as a group, similarly?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Of course, when it’s needed, we will speak, and for your information, the UN is going to look at the peacebuilding architecture next year. And the example that – of The Gambia is being used, and that’s what give me the – I worked for the whole population out of the UN.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, great, thank you. Shirley, your response. So, you’ve had plenty of time…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
So, the first…
Zeinab Badawi
…to think about this, haven’t you, coming third? Okay.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Thank you very much, Zeinab. Let me say that the Secretary-General has to do a balancing act most of the time, and one of the main tools she has, or he has, at their disposal – well, the current one is a female, so that – the Secretary-General has a soft power diplomacy. Because you’re a Diplomat first of all, and it’s for that that the Heads of Government created the CMAG. So, I believe that the Secretary-General will do all their engagements behind closed door because usually, that works. And if for any reason it does not work, then you have CMAG and you have a CMAG, then that can – through their actions, through the actions that they take, that would be speaking loudly. And so, if they decide that there’s a human rights violation and they decide to either suspend or to expel, that is speaking, for me, speaking loudly.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
So, the work between the good offices of the Secretary-General and CMAG is extremely important.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. I’m going to stay with you, Shirley, because we had a follow-up on this kind of discussion and hundreds of people online, actually, want you all to be more specific, including Bryce Twenguia from Cameroon. And he says, “What would the new Secretary-General do about the mistreatment of sexual and religious minorities?” Now, you’re all from Africa. I don’t need to tell you what some African leaders say or do, or their Parliaments, you know, mete out very exacting punishments for sexual minorities. So, specifically on that, what would you do, Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
So, I think that’s – that question is a very important one. The Secretary-General, once again, must engage and for me, this is extremely important, with the government and in partnership with the CSOs in the country.
Zeinab Badawi
Quietly or publicly?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Quietly.
Zeinab Badawi
Still quietly…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
And hang on.
Zeinab Badawi
…even when you see…?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
You start…
Zeinab Badawi
Alright.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…quietly, but then, if there’s the need for you to speak up, then you will do that.
Zeinab Badawi
But if a Parliament in a particular country were to pass very repressive laws on sexual minorities, you would still talk very quietly, would you?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
You will engage, number one, and then, through CMAG, because a Secretary-General is part of CMAG, then you take decisions.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. Joshua and Mamadou Tangara, I know you prefer to be called Tangara, so don’t think I’m being rude if I call him…
HE Mamadou Tangara
Hmmm hmm, hmmm hmm.
Zeinab Badawi
…Tangara. That’s what he prefers. Joshua, what would you say on that sexual minorities issue?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
I would say that there is a network of stakeholders in the Commonwealth, civil society organisations that advocate for issues like that. So, the Secretary-General has that network to tap into. You understand the situation, you understand the seriousness of the situation, or even if you see legislation and processes underway that would lead to legislation like that, then you speak up. You engage with the government, you see clarity. If the situation does not change, you go to CMAG, and in CMAG is where the political pressure then builds up. Because at the end of the day, it is a clear violation of the principles or the values of the Commonwealth, so there has to be accountability, and you make it clear to the state involved that this goes counter to your commitments. We don’t have to wait until a situation gets out of hand before you speak up.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, okay, thank you.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
You take it to CMAG and you speak.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, Tangara, have you got any ideas?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, I want to say that I’m against any form of oppression, of repression based on sexual orientation or religious belief. And the most powerful – and I come from a part of the world where we believe in dialogue and education. By education and dialoguing with people, you can find a solution to everything. What is dangerous is to see some countries trying to use their values, their standards, as criteria to distinguish from what is wrong or right, what is evil or good. I think we need to engage, talk to people, educate them, so that these kind of things will not happen, because after all, we are all human beings and who are we to judge or punish others for their religious belief or their sexual orientation?
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, okay. So, listen, the world is very different from when the Commonwealth was first, you know, conceived. It’s much more multipolar now, isn’t it? We’ve got very influential players, particularly on the Continent of Africa, like China just convened this massive summit with African leaders, pledging, you know, $50 billion and so on. And we’re seeing countries within the Commonwealth perhaps, you know, seeking different alliances, so that there are differences within the Commonwealth. And we’ve seen this happen in the past, of course, when Edward Heath was Prime Minister here and opposed the sanctions against South Africa and that other countries wanted and so on.
So, you, Tangara, talked about how, no, the Commonwealth is not a colonial being and that, you know, it comes together and coalesces around certain values, but how would you optimise the role of the Commonwealth Secretariat when, you know, there are criticisms that sometimes its aims are too broad to effect real change? And how would you bring member states to get the kind of support you want if you’re working, you know, to achieve a particular goal? ‘Cause, of course, sustainable development and democracy are the two key planks of the Commonwealth.
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, first and foremost, so, if I become a Secretary-General, I will not be a Secretary-General that will be vibrating above the Heads of Member States, and I will work closely with the Board of Governors, because it’s the Commonwealth of Nation and we all have our ideas. The first thing to do is to take stock of the situation, do a SWOT analysis and see how best we can make the organisation a relevant one, a force for good. A network where we can leverage on the opportunities in the Commonwealth.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Today, there are multiple configurations. You’ve got the G20, you’ve got the G7, you’ve got BRICS and in each one of them, there’s a Commonwealth member. Which means that around the table, the Commonwealth has influence in almost every forum globally, and that is what I would tap into. The Commonwealth has a long history of dealing successfully with very difficult issues. Racism, I think, is a very good example. One of the times in the Commonwealth history when even this has – the future of the Commonwealth was at stake was on the issue of religion. It was a very divisive issue, but the Commonwealth was able to prevail and was able to enforce and ensure that multiparty democracy came into place.
So, I do not worry too much about what the diversity means. I think the diversity is actually that strength and that is what, as Secretary-General, one has to tap into, because you literally have a voice in every forum on this planet. And if you are able to tap into that and make sure that the unity in the Commonwealth is what you advocate, so it’s what you amplify in those forums, then I think we’ll be okay. So, it is very important for a Secretary-General to have, one, the trust and the relationship with member states and express at the board.
Zeinab Badawi
Yeah, okay. Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Thank you very much. Just to say that the Secretariat is not a big organisation and therefore, it necessarily has to work hand-in-hand with the Commonwealth of Learning, the Foundation, the CPA and other affiliated organisations. It also has to go beyond to work with the UN, the WTO, the UNWTO, the FAO, with all the UN organisations, because for all these organisations, whether it’s the G77 or any of these organisations, they have members who are Commonwealth members, as well. And therefore, the interest of these organi – these coun – member countries, need necessarily to be – to come to these organisations through the Commonwealth and the Secretariat is there to advocate and to be an activist on behalf of these organisations. And for me, this is extremely important, that you speak in partnership with civil society and NGOs on behalf of the Commonwealth countries.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, so you would all seek unity where there would be potential disunity on some things.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Yes.
Zeinab Badawi
I think two or three of you mentioned the issue of trade and as you know, trade is, again, an area where, you know, we’re seeing protectionism come up and so on. And there are countries within the Commonwealth that perhaps have a different perspective on who their trading partners should be and so on. And just incidentally, it’s a very interesting figure, I think, intra-Commonwealth trade is 500 – within the Commonwealth is fif - $566 billion, and I know that two of you have said that it’s a very important engine of sustainable development.
We’ve had some questions online. I just want very short answers on these, some rapid-fire ones. A question on freedom of expression from Shahidul Alam from Bangladesh. “Will you, as the new Secretary-General, speak out against threats to media freedom, including defamation laws, stating commercial capture of the media and attacks on Journalists?” A very, very important universal right, of course, the 19th Article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So, Shirley, very quickly on that.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
I believe freedom of expression is key, it’s a basic human right and yes, I will speak out against it, because it’s a violation of our charter. It’s clearly stated in our charter and it’s a violation if it is curtailed in any shape or form, and so, yes, I will speak against it.
Zeinab Badawi
Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
I will definitely subscribe to that because it is – it goes to the core of the charter that we all subscribe to. Any member that violates that needs to account for that and needs to be brought – pressure needs to be brought on them to change that. If they refuse to heed that, there are mechanisms in place to take corrective action, including, at the end of the day, if it’s serious violations, suspension.
Zeinab Badawi
Hmmm hmm. Tangara?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, freedom of expression is important, but I think in this day and age, where we have social media, one of the biggest challenges we have is that we spend more time debunking fake news than real news. So, I think it’s also important to regulate it a little bit, because where you cannot legislate morality, you can regulate at least behaviour a little.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. A question here on the value and relevance of the Commonwealth. Of course, we know, I think it’s about 60% of members of the Commonwealth are under 30. Africa, of course, accounts for a large – is it about a third of the population of the Commonwealth, and a very, very young population?
Actually, I was struck, I should just say very quickly, when I was – when I went to County Meru on a Commonwealth Election Monitoring Team, I was a member of that team for the elections in Kenya in 2022, very proudly wearing a Commonwealth gown and a cap and so on, and wandering around County Meru. And I have to say, unfortunately, quite a lot of the young people there had never heard of the Commonwealth. So, the relevance of the Commonwealth, this question from Penny Soni Gawuna from Fiji, “Why should my country, Fiji, still be a member of the Commonwealth?” Joshua, what’s the relevance of it? Why should a country like Fiji, or any other country for that matter?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Fiji is a very good example of why the Commonwealth matters to them, because it was the Commonwealth that supported the Fijian people when governments were toppled twice by the military. It was the Commonwealth that stood with the public, with the Fijian public, to demand a return to multiparty democracy.
Zeinab Badawi
But he hung around in power, didn’t he, Bainimarama, after that…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Well, he…
Zeinab Badawi
…coup in 06?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
He did, but at the end of the day, it was the pressure of the Commonwealth under Don McKinnon that led to a return to democracy. Yes, I have heard the same question, where someone said to me, “What does the Commonwealth do for us? We only see them during election times. But we know what China does because I’m walking on the road that China built.” The reality is that there is work that the Commonwealth itself has to do in articulating the work that it does. The Commonwealth does more than just election observer…
Zeinab Badawi
Right.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
…or resolve issue. So, we need to improve how we communicate. We also need to invest in building stronger relations in the region. So, in the case of Fiji, we have to have stronger relationships with the PIF so that we’re able to articulate what we do, and also, we’re able to make sure that what we do reflects the regional political priorities.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, but those people in…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
…Fiji are seeing the Chinese build their roads, also. So, maybe that’s also behind the question. Shirley, why should Fiji be a member of the Commonwealth?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Why should it be a member of the Commonwealth?
Zeinab Badawi
Yes, that was the question from this person, yes.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Because they don’t see the usefulness of being a member of…
Zeinab Badawi
Yes, the…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
But…
Zeinab Badawi
It’s a question about the…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…let me say that…
Zeinab Badawi
…value and relevance of the Commonwealth.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…this is one of the issues that I believe has to be addressed by the Commonwealth Secretariat and it’s – I say this because it does so much. The Commonwealth has been useful to all of our countries, our member countries, 56 of us. But it’s a no fuss kind of an organisation, where so much is happening in our countries and most people, even Members of Parliament, are not aware of it, so they also ask the same questions.
Now, the issue is communication. How do we communicate all the way down to the ordinary citizen of the Commonwealth to understand what the Commonwealth does, how it adds value to our governance systems, how it speaks on our behalf at international fora? It is very important and communication is key…
Zeinab Badawi
Alright.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…because it has to be a Commonwealth of the people, and not just hanging at the level of Heads of Government.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, Tangara?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Yeah, a young Gambian can also relate to this question. People will ask you, “What’s the use of the Commonwealth?” ‘Cause I think that’s where Commonwealth Secretariat need to work on the visibility. It’s very important, because I know in The Gambia, for example, before, during and after election, Commonwealth was very much present. And even without election, Commonwealth helped to build a lot of capacities in our countries and we remember when we had challenges with our judiciary, we had the Hurricane Georges that came from the Commonwealth, and that help us resolve some of the bad blood. So, I did think there is need to work more on the visibility aspect.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, a very short answers on these. A question from Kunle Yusuf in Nigeria about empowering civil society. “How do you intend to work with an empowered civil society?” Very quickly, Tangara?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, an empowered civil society can help us connect from – because from a distance, you know, you are not in government and Khalil Gibran used to say that “The mountain to the climber is clearer from the valley,” because from – with a distance, they can see quite well what is not working and bring onboard their opinions, yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
Shirley, you’ve already mentioned NGOs, CSOs and…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
They shape policy and so, I believe it’s important for us to work together, the Secretariat, the countries, work with civil society in order to shape policy for decision-making. It’s extremely important. Whether it’s on health, whether it’s on the youth, whether it’s on governance issues, civil society can play a role. That engagement is key, it’s important.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
The Charter of the Commonwealth really recognises the centrality of civil society in its work. The Commonwealth, as we’ve heard a number of times now, has very limited resources. So, it goes without saying that if we are going to amplify the work of the Commonwealth, if we are going to reach every segment of society, civil society has to be part of that, and we already have that network in place. The new Secretary-General will have to also carry on and strengthen that network and work with them, not just as a by the way situ – but actually, as part and parcel of any strategy going forward. They are really central to that.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, a question here about very concrete actions required about climate change from the Honourable Barbara Webster-Bourne, Speaker of the Anguilla House of Assembly. “Anguilla, like many small island states and territories, face disproportionate risks from climate change, but we often struggle to access necessary climate finance and resources. As Secretary-General, how would you advocate for targeted financial support and climate adaptation programmes specifically designed for small territories like ours within the Commonwealth?” And of course, we’ve seen extreme weather situations in the Caribbean, places like Anguilla, Antigua and so on. Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Thank you very much. I believe one of the key ways to work with partners on climate is to advocate on behalf of the seats. We have 33 out of the 56 members who are small island developing states and small states and of course, climate is affecting these countries. 49 out of the 56 have coastlines and we can see the effects of climate change. Now, how do we adapt? How do we mitigate? How do we ensure that we make them ready to be able to handle what is inevitable in terms of the negative effects of climate?
I have proposed, you know, a reduction in the use of fossils and that, for me, is extremely important. So, I’ve proposed a renewables revolution where we spread the use of renewables within the Commonwealth and for me, this is extremely important. And of course, having that voice on behalf of all our states through the Commonwealth Secretariat.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, so it’s how would you advocate, Tangara, for targeted financial support in climate adaptation programmes…
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well…
Zeinab Badawi
…advocacy role?
HE Mamadou Tangara
…more advocacy and bring the big players to fulfil their place. We’ve been to many COPs. You will have – you’ll always hear huge pledges, but at the end of the day, we don’t see anything, and that’s reminds me of the words of a Former President of Ghana, of blessed memory, John Atta Mills, when he said that, “People are talking about donor fatigue, but we are talking about pledges fatigue.” Because you go to these big conferences, they make big pledges, but not any supplement. So, I think it’s the role of the Secretary-General to help the countries to go and do more advocacy for us to access climate financing.
Zeinab Badawi
Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Climate change is the mo – is a defining issue of our time. The Secretary-General of the Commonwealth has a very unique opportunity to play in support of countries, one mobilising climate finance, mobilising resources for adaptation, but also on the governance side, one issue that we don’t speak much about is that there’s a growing divide between the Global South and developed countries on climate change. Because it is not inclusive, the perception that the countries that historically have accounted for less emissions are the ones that are at the forefront of that.
The Commonwealth Secretary-General has a very strong opportunity and a very strong role and the office has the man – the power to be able to effect that – to continue to advocate, to make sure that climate justice is there. But also to ensure that the initiatives that are coming out of the seas, for example, you’ve got the Bridgetown Initiative, which is bringing innovative ideas on around how we can begin to help small island developing countries, those have to gain traction. And the Secretary-General is in a very strong position to advocate and champion those initiatives.
Zeinab Badawi
And given you’ve got some of those rich industrialised nations within the Commonwealth itself, you’ve got quite an advocacy role to carry out within the Commonwealth itself. Very quickly on this one, a question on reparations from Finola Jennings Clark from St Lucia. So, “What would you do for those states who support reparations for slavery and the legacy of colonialism, especially in the face of the rapidly increasing effects of the climate crisis?” And I’m sure you know that CARICOM, the Association of Caribbean States, about more than a decade ago, had a ten-point plan for, I think it was 2016, actually, ten-point plan for reparations. And of course, Britain, a member of the Commonwealth, key imperial power, some of the requests are coming its way, frankly, aren’t they?
So, what would you do to support the Caribbean members and some African countries, indeed? Nana Akufo-Addo in Ghana has said he also supports the idea of reparations for Africa. So, what would you do, Tangara?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, at the UN I was – we – Gambia was champion in every solution on reparation, because I think it’s a duty to correct some of the mistakes of the past. And we’ve also organised a very successful colloquium in The Gambia remembering the past and stepping into the future, where we do the mathematics on reparation. So, I think it’s a battle that is worth fighting.
Zeinab Badawi
That you would support, okay.
HE Mamadou Tangara
Oh, yeah, fully.
Zeinab Badawi
Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
The discussions around reparative justice have actually progressed quite well. It is no longer just about the financial aspect of it. It is now a much more broader issue, which I think has gained traction. It is important that when we talk about reparative justice, we are able to also articulate and link it to some of the challenges that countries like Lesotho and others in the Caribbean continue to face, whether it’s on climate justice, whether it’s a reform of a financial – international financial architecture. Which has to take into account those structural challenges that countries have experienced because of that.
Zeinab Badawi
So, you wouldn’t…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
So…
Zeinab Badawi
…isolate the slavery/colonialism argument? You’d subsume it…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
No, I think…
Zeinab Badawi
…within the climate change and all the other forms of…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
It has to be…
Zeinab Badawi
…reparative justice?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
…seen in a much more broader context.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Because the challenge is that is over the last 20 years, when the discussion started, we’re looking at it from a very narrow perspective of financial compensation.
Zeinab Badawi
And…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
But it is a much more broader…
Zeinab Badawi
…the first request is actually for…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
…an apology.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
And so far, they’ve only been expressions of regret.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yes.
Zeinab Badawi
But there we go. Thank you. Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Just recently, Ghana hosted a reparations conference, brought together the Caribbean and Africa to talk about reparations. And it had moved from financial reparations, now to justice in terms of what do we get for climate, in the area of climate? What do we get in terms of the development co-operation framework which is not working any longer? How do we look at the inter – the financial architecture that we all have to abide by? How is it working for countries and what do we get out of it and what breaks do we get out of it? So, I think that we’ve all moved from financial reparations and this is what this country is getting, now to what we can get out of – in terms of our development, in terms of our resilience building, whether it’s climate, whether it’s economic.
Zeinab Badawi
Hmmm.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
And I think that’s…
Zeinab Badawi
But I have to say, the CARICOM countries still do want financial assistance and they pose it in the form of development for essentially, health and education, because as middle income countries, they don’t get any development aid, for example, from the United Kingdom. So, there is still a financial element there.
Okay, let’s just very quickly have some very rapid-fire questions from the floor. I know you’ve all been desperate to, but I have to follow the rules and I was told to do all this. Very quickly, let’s go for the lady there in the white dress. Just take the microphone very, very quickly.
Christabel Derby
Thank you very much.
Zeinab Badawi
Say who you are, if it’s relevant.
Christabel Derby
Thank you very much. I’m Christabel Derby and I serve as the Vice Chairperson for the Commonwealth Youth Council, which is the official representative voice of all 1.5 billion young people. So…
Zeinab Badawi
Very quickly.
Christabel Derby
Yes.
Zeinab Badawi
Otherwise, I’ll stop you. Yes.
Christabel Derby
Thank you so much, yes. So, throughout our consultation with our young people, we know that young people across our member countries faces unprecedented challenges from unemployment to climate change. So, our question is, how will your leadership ensure that the voices and the needs of youth are prioritised in shaping the future of our Commonwealth? And what specific initiatives do you plan to implement to empower the 1.5 billion young people we represent?
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, thank you.
Christabel Derby
Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
Just hand the microphone to the gentleman there with his arm up. Patrick, Patrick, yeah.
Patrick Smith
Thanks very much. Patrick Smith from Africa Confidential. A quick question for Mr Setipa. Your tenure as Managing Director of the UN Bank, Technology Bank for Less Developed Economies, ended abruptly when the UN Oversight Body came to your office in Istanbul and dismissed you for a report which found gross irregularities in the management…
Zeinab Badawi
Oh.
Patrick Smith
…operations of the bank. Now, you’ve dismissed those – that report as unfair and untrue.
Zeinab Badawi
This…
Patrick Smith
I wondered why you didn’t challenge that at the time and what do you have to say about it now?
Zeinab Badawi
This sounds like a very, very complex question there, Patrick, with a lot of allegations and detail that we may not have time to go into, but thank you. This lady here and then, we’ll put the three points…
Latika Bourke
Hi, Latika Bourke from The Nightly, Australia. Do you believe the Commonwealth has any role in countering Chinese influence?
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, thank you. That was also a question that we had online. Joshua, do you want to address the question from Patrick from Africa Confidential very quickly?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yes, I was appointed Managing Director in 2018 on a four-year contract. That contract was due to end in 2022 in November. I left the Technology Bank in March to go and stand for elections in Lesotho. Now, what Patrick is referring to is an audit that was done after I’d left. What I have not been part of is that process, but I can tell you that when I left the UN, when I left the UN in March, I left to go and stand for elections in Lesotho. I left on good terms. I left with all my terminal benefits. I still have a good relationship with the UN.
Now, most importantly, if there had ever been any – if there were any issues, I would not have been able to work for the Commonwealth when I did finally come after the elections in Lesotho.
Zeinab Badawi
Right.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
So, I think, as you say, it’s an issue that we can talk about, but definitely not in two minutes.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, good. At least we’ve ventilated it.
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, very quickly, youth and China, “What will you do to engage with the youth?” And then, also, “How would you counter the influence in China?” which is also a question we got from Rishi Athreya. “China is increasingly active in the South Pacific, including Samoa. Many of these countries have dominions. What role can the Commonwealth play in containing China?” if indeed, you agree with that. Shirley, youth and China very quickly and I’ll come back to you on youth and China.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Well, with the issue of China, the Commonwealth Secretariat supports 56 sovereign countries. Some of those countries have decided that they want to engage China, and they have very good reasons why they do that. I believe the best that the Commonwealth can do is to give them the tools to be able to negotiate very well. But apart from that, I do not see how the Commonwealth can influence a country’s relationship with China, because these are sovereign countries. So, maybe give them the tools to be able to make sure that they get the best out of their relationship with China.
Zeinab Badawi
So, you can’t, but do you think it’s desirable?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
And I do not think…
Zeinab Badawi
Personally?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
For the – a Commonwealth Secretariat to be involved in that, no, I…
Zeinab Badawi
Well, just containing China as a, kind of, idea, do you think it’s a good idea?
HE Mamadou Tangara
No.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Let’s not involve the Commonwealth Secretariat in something like that.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, right.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Because it will be violating sovereignty.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, fine.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
And poking its nose where it’s not needed.
Zeinab Badawi
And you’ve already talked about civil society, but youth, particularly unemployment and, you know, what…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
…would you do about that?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
For me, the two issues that confront the 60% of our Commonwealth is the issue of employment and employment, whether or not the employment – the jobs that the youth are exposed to are suited to industry. For me, this is extremely important. So, education, skills training, giving the vocational technical skills is extremely important for them to be able to suitor to the needs of industry. We have the use of AI, artificial intelligence and ICT and these are areas that now have become very, very useful in countries for the youth to be able to have the skills.
Also, the youth should not only be looking at the public sector, because the public sector is too constricted to be able to handle employment for everybody. So that’s where innovation startups come in and I think this is extremely important that we equip them and then, of course, we look at ways in which we can help them access funds, seed funds to be able to start their own employment.
Now, the other thing that…
Zeinab Badawi
Oh, no, there were only two…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
It’s serving…
Zeinab Badawi
…questions there.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
No, it’s serving…
Zeinab Badawi
And they’re…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
It’s being involved…
Zeinab Badawi
No, but…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…being involved.
Zeinab Badawi
…the Technology Bank was for Joshua. That was the third one.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Oh, so, it’s…
Zeinab Badawi
So, only two.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…being involved…
Zeinab Badawi
Youth and China.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…in the political and the civic conversation in their countries because they are part – they are the future of our countries and they need to be at the table to be part of the conversation…
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…that concerns them.
Zeinab Badawi
Got it. Tangara, so, first of all, on China, should the Commonwealth contain China? Can it…
HE Mamadou Tangara
I…
Zeinab Badawi
…contain China?
HE Mamadou Tangara
…don’t think that’s the role of the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth cannot determine the foreign policy of sovereign states and I don’t think we should be in a logic of trying to counter the influence of a country or an organisation. I think the Commonwealth should try to make sure that it has more influence than trying to compete with another country or another organisation.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, and…
HE Mamadou Tangara
On the issue of the young people, yeah, I think they should be part of – they are the present and the future and that’s where I think education and skills development are very important. As a Minister of Higher Education, I was always saying that “One of the most important ministries in our – in developing countries and most of the Commonwealth countries are – for developing countries, is the Minister of Higher Education.” ‘Cause I like to quote a Latin American thinker who used to say that [Spanish]…
Zeinab Badawi
You love your foreign languages.
HE Mamadou Tangara
…[Spanish].
Zeinab Badawi
We’ve got Spanish now [applause]. Yeah, sorry, go on.
HE Mamadou Tangara
[Spanish] That “If you want to know the evolution of nation, just look at their higher education system today and you will know what they will be tomorrow.” And we are moving towards the digital age and so, it’s important to build more capacity to close the digital divide and have young people who are well educated and well equipped, not only to rely on white collar jobs, but to be able to be innovative and creative and create their own things to prosper.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. So, Joshua, on China?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
I don’t think containment is part of the Commonwealth priorities or Charter. It’s not in the Charter. And I also agree with a point that these are sovereign independent states sitting around the table and therefore, they have the liberty to decide their bilateral relations. It becomes a Commonwealth issue if those relationships begin to undermine the Commonwealth. So, as Secretary-General, I would stay away from that, unless it creates a direct challenge to the implementation of the Charter. Then it becomes a Commonwealth issue.
On youth, we all talk about the demographic dividend, which the 1.5 billion people under the age of 30 represents, and it’s quite true, but it is only – it can only drive the Commonwealth if it is qualitative human capital. So, our responsibility – and we already have the infrastructure. We’ve got the Commonwealth of Learning, the num – the most extensive network of distance learning in the world today. So, we need to work through that, we don’t have to reinvent the wheel, to create and provide the skills that we need to drive the economies of today.
We talk about artificial intelligence. How many Data Scientists do we have in Lesotho today? How can Lesotho participate in the discussions around the potential for AI when we don’t even have the basic skills to do that? So, we have to invest in building the human capital. Then that demographic dividend is realisable.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, great, thank you. So, gosh, lots of questions. Okay, is it just one microphone or there are two? Unless you want to ask a question, I suggest you hand a microphone to somebody. This lady here and then, you hand your microphone to – let’s go to the young man at the back, there, in the grey pullover. Right, very…
Professor Funmi Olonisakin
Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
…quickly.
Professor Funmi Olonisakin
Thank you. I’m Professor Funmi Olonisakin, King’s College London. I haven’t heard from any of the candidates something that tells me this is the thing that is really burning for you, an issue that affects the people in the Commonwealth, on which you will take the agency of the Secretary-General. What is your one issue when you think about your legacy? Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, thank you. Their Legacy? I mean, they haven’t even been appointed yet. Yes, fine. For – question at the back, yeah.
Member
I would like to ask about your practical leadership styles and approaches as individual candidates. As Secretary-General, how would you ensure the Secretariat itself is the most effective in its work on a day-to-day basis? I’m hopeful this election is a chance to reinvigorate the Secretariat’s potential with new ideas and governance styles. Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, thank you.
Member
And here.
Zeinab Badawi
And gosh, okay, so just hand it to the gentleman in the spectacles there, please. Okay, there were two of you, sorry.
Steven
Thank you. Steven [inaudible – 75:20]. One of the questions I have is in relation to the rule of law. One of the difficult developments we see around the world are people pulling away from rule of law and access to justice principles. What do the candidates think that the Commonwealth can do to advance rule of law around the world? Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, so let’s – what’s the burning issue that you – if you become new Secretary-General, that you’d want them to say, “Uh-huh, this is what I’m going to be remembered for?” Very quickly.
HE Mamadou Tangara
For me…
Zeinab Badawi
Tangara, yeah.
HE Mamadou Tangara
…it’s education. I’ve been saying that building the human capital is key, yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Reinvesting in democracy and human rights.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Climate change, making our countries climate resilience.
Zeinab Badawi
Right, okay, three very different answers there and, you know, we’ve heard a lot about how this Secretariat functions and so on, and there’ve been some criticisms about how effective it is and so on. What kind of housekeeping would you carry out there? Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Well, let me say that I’m outside looking in, yes, but I believe that one of the key things that I would want to build is trust and confidence in the Secretariat. And I say this because one of the issues that has plagued the Secretariat is lack of funding for the Secretariat to carry out its projects. And there are countries that used to give money into the CFTC, who have no – who are no longer doing it, from at 1.34 million, it’s now dwindled to seven million.
Zeinab Badawi
And it’s often on a project-…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
And…
Zeinab Badawi
…by-project…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…it’s now…
Zeinab Badawi
…basis, yeah.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…on a project-by-project basis, other than putting it in a basket so that it can be used. So, for me, this is one thing that I want to work on, which is trust, confidence in the Secretariat, working closely with the Board of Governors. A Board of Governors that are institutionalised in such a way that they can talk – they can discuss matters of management, audit and financial matters. So, very close working with…
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…the Board of Governors…
Zeinab Badawi
Yes, we’ve got that.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…and also building trust and confidence.
Zeinab Badawi
Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
In my experience, an environment that is transparent, that is predictable, is what fosters effectiveness and efficiency in a Secretariat. You have to create an environment, and that’s what I would do, I would create an environment that allows that team, and it’s an excellent team, I’ve had the privileged of working with them for 12 months, so I’ve seen them at work and I know what they can achieve. Given the tools, given the environment that allows them to thrive. Of course, the relationship with member states is very key because that relationship would allow resources and support to flow.
It is very important, but it starts with creating – as a Chief Executive of the Secretariat, it starts with creating an enabling environment that allows that talent to thrive, that creates predictability, that ensures that the organisation, the Commonwealth, already has guidelines. It has rules, it has administrative guidelines, that are implemented in full transparency. And you recognise excellence and you celebrate excellence and you also have the courage to stand up and take corrective action when it is required, so that there’s predictability. It becomes a problem when staff does not know whether today the approach changes and tomorrow it’s a different approach.
Zeinab Badawi
Hmmm, I do agree with you. I mean, having had interactions with the people in the Commonwealth, they are an incredible bunch in all its little satellites and they do, do incredible work. I remember going to The Gambia in 2017 as part of a panel of people and – to see, you know, whether Gambia should be reinstated in the Commonwealth. And it really – you know, when you see on the ground what you do and all the conversations we had with the judiciary and civil society and so on, and the report we published, very impressive work a lot of the time. But as you say, not enough resources and funds. So, your response…
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well…
Zeinab Badawi
…Tangara to it.
HE Mamadou Tangara
…trust, transparency and accountability and work with a team. I believe in teamwork, in team spirit. I always say that “The sense of success smells like team spirit,” because there are things that I know better than others, but there are many things that others know better than me. So, when we work as a team, success will be guaranteed.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, and let’s stay with the question on the rule of law, which, you know, the gentleman said, we’re seeing a, sort of, creeping authoritarianism and violations of rule of law and so on. We’ve had a, kind of – questions like that, or a variation on that theme, but just address very quickly that particular point, Tangara.
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, rule of law, I think is – it’s key that we – it’s a sine qua non for peace and stability and we should all endeavour to make sure that we have rule of law. Because where there is no justice, you are creating the recipe, the ingredients for instability and conflict. So, rule of law is key.
Zeinab Badawi
Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
You cannot have development or inclusive growth without rule of law. It’s as simple as that. So, the investment that the Commonwealth has been making over the years in building institutional support or capacity in the judiciary in other entities, at a national level, has to continue, because that is what will unlock this full potential that we all know exists in the Commonwealth. Whether we’re talking about unlocking the full democratic pot – demographic potential of these 1.5 young people that we have, as long as there’s no predictability in the application of the rule of the law, that will never be realised. So, the investment that I would make and advocate for an increased investment is in that regard. Rule of law is the key to unlocking all the other opportunities that we see.
Zeinab Badawi
Hmmm. Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Rule of law is definitely linked directly to peace and development and most of our countries need to attract foreign direct investment. Nobody’s going to invest in your country if the judiciary is not seen as competent and just and it’s able to administer justice as it should. So, I believe that this is extremely important, and we need to continue to support countries. The Commonwealth Secretariat needs to support countries and I believe they’re doing that. There’s a lot of work that goes into building capacity in Commonwealth countries.
Zeinab Badawi
Thank you. We’ve got five minutes left for questions. I’ve favoured that side a bit more, so give the microphone to this gentleman here and then, to the lady at the back and you give the microphone to this gentleman here, at the front.
Arif Zaman
Yes.
Zeinab Badawi
Yeah, go ahead. It’s probably…
Arif Zaman
So, my name is…
Zeinab Badawi
…the last round.
Arif Zaman
…Arif Zaman. I sit on the board of the Commonwealth accredited organisation, the Commonwealth Businesswomen’s Network. The question is around, look, Paris Climate Change Agreement would never have happened if those Heads of Government hadn’t flown directly from Malta to Paris. There are so many examples of achievements in the Commonwealth. You’ve all talked about communication, but with respect, very vaguely. So, my question is, what specific things would you do to ensure that communications is significantly better so that more people understand the Commonwealth and its achievements?
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, thank you. Yeah, who has the microphone? Yeah, go ahead.
William Horsley
William Horsley from the Commonwealth Journalists association. I would remind you there is, at the CHOGM Summit coming up, a very practical initiative for accountability. It takes the form of a civil society initiative, already approved by Law Ministers and it’s called the Commonwealth Principles on Freedom of Expression and the Role of Media in Good Governance. I put it to you that if that is adopted and if there is – there are mechanisms and genuine effort is put behind implementing this, that this could be a transformation which achieves accountability and the credibility of the Commonwealth. Can you assure all those concerned, the Commonwealth Journalists, Parliamentarians, the Human Rights Initiative and Lawyers involved, that this will be treated as real, for a real thing, and taken up seriously and not become window dressing? Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, well, it’s for lay – Patricia Scotland, isn’t it, ‘cause it’s October? But anyway, yeah, fine, next month. Who had the microphone? Oh, give it to this young lady here, right next to you.
Katrina Money
Thank you very much. Katrina Money from Reuters News Agency. My understanding is, from what you said, that you all support reparations for slavery and colonialism. Correct me if I’m wrong. My question is, how exactly will you, as Secretary-General, pursue those reparations? Thank you.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, okay. So, first of all, the question on communications, more effective communications. Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
To be able to ensure that the Commonwealth at it – from its highest level to the man in the village in Lesotho understands and appreciates and sees what you do, it’s to make sure that we have a presence in the region, which is why I spoke about strengthening relations with regional entities. We have to be able to communicate and ensure that our messages are linked. But more importantly, we have a network of partners across the Commonwealth, which I think is a missed opportunity which we have not tapped into.
We have to go to those 87 asso – accre – associated organisations, we have to go to that network of civil society entities and continuously engage with them. Because it is only by continuously engaging with them that they are aware of what we do and we are aware of what they do, and we compare notes, but also to ensure that we have an effective way of managing our resources. The challenge right now is that we’re sitting in a marble house and nobody knows what we’re doing. So, communication is very important, but that communication…
Zeinab Badawi
But what would you do to raise – make more effective…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
I would engage…
Zeinab Badawi
…better…?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
…more frequently and more directly with this network. I would ensure that in our work, the work we do, around the table we have all the stakeholder partners.
Zeinab Badawi
But the wider public…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Wider public…
Zeinab Badawi
…all over?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
…through that network of entities. Because that network of entities represents that public.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. More effective communication…
Joshua Phoho Setipa
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
…how, Shirley? With…?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
More effective communication is to work closely with the CSOs, including the Commonwealth Journalists. I think it’s extremely important. Now, also to look at the Communication Department of the Commonwealth and see what can be done. It’s not just about putting information on websites, but it’s about now ensuring that we reach the people of the Commonwealth, the young people. This is an organisation that – and using new methods of the media, whether it’s social media, whether it’s other forms. This is an organisation that has done so much, including the Resilience, Vulnerability Index, which was taking to scale by the World Bank. Health Workup protocols, taking to scale…
Zeinab Badawi
So, speak up louder…
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
…by…
Zeinab Badawi
…about the things?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
But yes, by – but we need to speak out loud.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay. Tangara?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Yeah, I think more outreach programmes, having a strong network between Commonwealth Journalists, because you cannot also sit in London and be able to speak to the young man in The Gambia or the Fiji. The cultural dimension is very important, so have closer collaborations between Journalists and more outreach programmes.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. Talking of Journalists, the lady from Reuters is saying, she’s got her pen poised, “Do you all support reparations?” Financial reparations you were saying in particular, or just reparations for…
Katrina Money
Whatever…
Zeinab Badawi
…enslavement?
Katrina Money
…the implication of reparation things…
Zeinab Badawi
So, be careful because this is a public meeting and she’s going to quote you. So, choose your words judiciously. What is your position, very clearly, on reparations? She clearly didn’t get it first time. So, Shirley?
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Financial reparations is good. However, the conversation is now moving to other reparations in kind, and so, either way it’s fine, but I stand for reparations. Whether or not the Commonwealth has a role to play will depend on the Heads of Government, who will give the Secretary-General her marching orders that “We want you involved in the conversation of reparations. We want you to put forward the – a common voice on behalf of all Commonwealth countries.”
Zeinab Badawi
She’s recording you. Yes, Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
I support the idea of reparative justice, and I do not – I would not wait to be asked to participate. More than half of the members around the table are calling for this to be addressed, but the Commonwealth has a long history of facilitating discussions around difficult issues. We have dealt with racism, which has been more divisive than this, so it should be easy for the Commonwealth to facilitate a discussion around the table for – between those that are for and those that are resisting, or that are pushing back, or that have a different end goal. But the Commonwealth has a role because it is an issue that affects more than half of the members of the Commonwealth.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay. Tangara?
HE Mamadou Tangara
I’m fully in support of reparatory justice, but this is a cause that – it’s a novel cause that has to be championed by member states, and the Commonwealth can use its convening power to facilitate the dialogue and make it happen.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright, good, and then the final question is, sort of, about, you know, the CSO initiative and the Journalist rights and so on, you know, “How do you ensure that everything you do isn’t just merely window dressing?” And that will be your final chance to speak, and I’ll go by how we spoke originally. You were first, second, third. Tangara?
HE Mamadou Tangara
Well, I don’t believe in window dressing. Whatever I do, I do it with conviction. If I don’t believe in it, also, I will make my position known clearly.
Zeinab Badawi
Alright. Joshua?
Joshua Phoho Setipa
I’m a big believer in liberty, including freedom of expression, so it goes without saying that if we – if I stand for the Charter and I stand for the principles and values of the Commonwealth, supporting freedom of expression is very, very central to that. So, I would champion that.
Zeinab Badawi
Right, Shirley, briefly.
The Hon Shirley Ayorkor Botchwey
Partnerships, I believe in meaningful partnerships, just – not just partnerships as window dressing and therefore, engagements with partners is extremely important. Whether it is CSOs, whether it’s a Foundation, Commonwealth of Learning, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, I think that these – the youth, these are very important linkages that must – the results of their engagements must go into decision-making. So, for me, this is extremely important, not window dressing, but must result in decision-making.
Zeinab Badawi
Okay, thank you. So, ladies and gentlemen, our three candidates for Secretary-General of the Commonwealth, Shirley Botchwey, Joshua Setipa and Mamadou Tangara, thank you all very much, indeed. I want to [applause] – closing remarks by Alex Vines, Research Director here at Chatham House. Alex…
Alex Vines
Yeah.
Zeinab Badawi
…thank you.
Alex Vines
So, I want to be very brief. I, first of all, want to thank our virtual audience. We had 1,600 people online. Obviously, they…
Zeinab Badawi
Oh, wow.
Alex Vines
…couldn’t all fit in here, and I would also like to apologise for many people who sent in questions. We had over 1,400 questions. Obviously, we could only take a few selection and those of you in this hall were a bit more privileged, actually. We had more questions here proportionately than the virtual world outside. But what it says to me is just how much interest, keen interest, there is in the Commonwealth and the desire to hear the candidates, who have been so eloquently debating their visions for the future of the Commonwealth as Secretary-General.
This institute, Chatham House, has sin – over its 104 years of existence, has discussed the Commonwealth, the concept of it and its development regularly. You will see when you leave, in the tunnel on the left-hand side, as part of our history, how in the 1930s, just the concept of the Commonwealth and its development was key to the work of the institute in that period.
I’ve gone through the archives in preparation of this debate and one thing that was recurrent, that is very reflective in the room today, and this is the main point I want to make, is the debates in the 30s were about that the Commonwealth should be an association of an – peoples and nations. And it’s peoples and nations that are here today. Some of you represent governments. The High Commissioners are all there, many of them right here in the first couple of rows, and so, that continuity, I think, continues, the issue of an association of peoples and nations.
Finally, I just want to say to you that we have a magazine called “The World Today.” There are copies here. Professor Funmi Olonisaki, she did ask a question, from King’s College, she’s got an article about what she thinks an African Secretary-General of the Commonwealth could achieve. So, please, the physical copies are here, but I know that you virtual audience, you’re not going to be denied, it’s available online for you. So, please do draw on it.
So, finally, I just have the task to particularly thank our moderator, Zeinab Badawi, and our partners [applause], the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the Commonwealth Foundation, for coming today to put this debate together, this hustings. And you’ll know that this meeting was fully on the record, nothing to do with the Chatham House Rule. Thank you very much [applause].
