Tighisti Amare
Okay, well, thank you. A very warm welcome to all of you, friends of Chatham House and members. We have been hosting at Chatham House on the big issues of international affairs for the last 100 years, so thank you for joining us to continue on that tradition. This – today’s event is part of Black History Month. I’m Tighisti Amare. I’m the Deputy Director of the Africa Programme and I’m very lucky to be joined by three excellent speakers.
Next to me is Olu Alake, who is the CEO of The Africa Centre, a cultural institution founded in the 1960s that promotes African culture and heritage, while uniting diaspora communities, in arts, education and politics. Olu has held senior management roles in several organisations, including the London Marathon Foundation and Arts Council of England. He’s also founding member of the – President Emeritus of 100 Black Men of London and a Trustee of The Reader Organisation.
In the middle, here, we have Natalie Scarlett, who is a Social Entrepreneur and Race Practitioner dedicated to closing the racial inequality gap in the UK through advocacy and education. As the Director of the Black Heritage Support Service, she empowers the Black community and promotes anti-racism practices in institutions. She has worked with Public Health, Citizen Advice and the British Red Cross and is also a Black Cultural Argive – Archives Ambassador and UN Women’s Ambassador and a Fellow of the Solferino Academy.
Last but not least, is my friend, Onyekachi Wambu, who is the Associate for Special Projects of the African Foundation for Development, or AFFORD, who – which is a longstanding partner of the Chatham House Africa Programme. With a background in journalism, he directed documentaries for the BBC, Channel 4 and PBS, before focusing on the African diaspora at AFFORD, where he previously also served as the organisation’s Executive Director. Currently, he co-ordinates the return of the Icons programme at AFFORD, which addresses the restitution of looted African artefacts.
So, we are – we have a really great group of speakers here, but before we start, I have to inform you all that this event is on the record and is being livestreamed, so should you wish to tweet, you can do so. Please do use the #CH_Events and the handle @ChathamHouse if you wan – if you’re tweeting.
Just as a very quick background, this event was also inspired by some work I personally did with the Africa Programme Director, Alex Vines. We wrote a chapter looking at African soft power in the UK. When we talk – when we’re thinking about soft power dynamics between Africa and the UK, we often think about the UK’s role and the influence that exists, both historically, during the colonial time, but also in present time, including through cultural exports, diplomacy, international aid and economic ties. So, we decided to actually reflect, look at how the networks and relations that initially were established during the UK’s outward facing colonial period, have led to an influx of cultural influence back to the UK. But this is also, of course, the case for the Caribbeans, as we were discussing earlier on.
So, in this discussion, we want to focus how the growing African and Caribbean influence in the UK is shaping different aspects of life, from music, from fashion, different cultural scenes, but also, in terms of advocacy and influencing different sectors of the UK. So, I do want to start by asking you all, Olu, Natalie and Onyekachi, just to share your perspectives, first, on how African and Caribbean influences, whether through the different sectors I just mentioned, but also media or heritage, how have they helped shape the cultural and social landscape of the UK? We can start with you, Olu.
Olu Alake
Thank you. In various ways, and it’s interesting that you have framed the conversation in terms of ‘soft power’, because those are the intangible things that actually make a difference, you know, that you don’t always think about. And over the last 100 years, certainly over the last 50/60/70 years, there has been a – there’s always been a difference that we have made indirectly. You know, the contribution that we have made, which is not always acknowledged or recognised in terms of the economic advantages that the – that British society has gained from its interaction with Africa and the Caribbeans, is there. That’s more direct.
Over the recent decades, last six/seven/eight decades, it’s been more about how our presence here and our contributions have, in their own way, helped to reshape that very sense of Britishness and how that manifests itself in various ways in art and culture, as you’ve mentioned, certainly. But also in education, the kind of things that we focus on in education, the understanding that people have about the world because they’re seeing the world around them. How we have, through asserting our identity in the various manifestations of culture, have also had an economic impact on society, as well. And then, through things like entrepreneurship and innovation, you know, the – again, it’s underacknowledged, but there are real – very real differences, you know, that African and Caribbean communities have been, and continue to make to society.
And wherever there’s a Black person, you know, a difference is being made. Whether you recognise that difference or not, by their very presence in a space, you know, they are reshaping the space, because the conversation is changing, not always positively, but the conversation is changing. It’s not always accepted in the spirit in which they present themselves, but the conversation is shifting, you know, and it happens often enough that – at a micro level, that it changes things, as well, on a macro level.
Tighisti Amare
Hmmm hmm, that’s really interesting. Indeed, the under-acknowledgement, we do seek in our work, as well, again, the point of us focusing on that piece of work, trying to reverse the trend, reflect a bit more. Natalie, over to you.
Natalie Scarlett
In terms of the Caribbean community, I don’t know if you can talk about, kind of, the social and cultural landscape without the political one, because I mean, I’m the daughter of two Jamaican immigrants who came here. My dad came in the 50s, my mum came here in the 60s, and they came with that generation that’s quite popular, everyone knows, it was the Windrush generation. But when they came here, they had – prior to coming, they had, like, a bit of a conundrum, because they had the idea of what Britain was and then, they had the reality. And that generation, when they came here, had to do a lot of the legwork to create the environment that we have today, right?
But when they came here, that, kind of, social distress that they experienced, and many generations after them, was often expressed through ‘popular culture’, and that’s a term coined by Stuart Hall. I think it’s important to acknowledge Stuart Hall, because he founded cultural studies and cultural studies really is about understanding how culture shapes identity. And I think the Caribbean identity is core to Britishness, or what we know as Britishness, and that cultural and social exchange, we, kind of, see in Britain with fashion, with music, is absolutely grounded in Caribbean culture.
But I think we expand past, sort of, music, which is also important, but also, economics, group evide – economies. When my mum first came to this country, Caribbeans had a group economics system called Pardner. My mum would send me round the corner to bring Pardner in a envelope and I never knew what it was when I was little. But when they came to this country, they couldn’t get loans, some couldn’t even open up a bank account, so they had that, kind of, system. And I’ve seen that system re-emerge. Lately, now, since the Black Lives Matter movement, there’s this, kind of, shared understanding amongst Caribbean and African people that we need to have this kind of ecosystem and last week, I think it was last week, they had the Black Business Week. We have Black Pound Day, which Swiss from So Solid started, another Caribbean person.
So, I think our contribution expands wider than that, and I also wanted to shout out a guy that I, kind of, learnt about when I was in the humanitarian sector, and his name was Sir Arthur Lewis. And basically, he created this economic model which, basically, changed agricul-garian [means agrarian] cultures into – just into industrial ones. So, he wanted to reduce poverty, and that model, kind of, was used in other countries to reduce poverty. It was used in India; it was used in China. And he was from St Lucia and there’s this, kind of, narrative that Caribbean people don’t value education and we’re, kind of, stereotyped as only being good at sports and music, and as you can see, it, kind of, expands over every kind of facet in our society.
So, I think our contributions are quite significant in terms of the civil change, the first Race Relations Act being influenced by the Bristol Bus Boycotts. So, I think, yeah, I think our contribution is vast and wide and spans across music, arts, academia, etc.
Tighisti Amare
Hmmm, well, thank you. So, that’s what I’m hearing, there’s a lot of contribution but perhaps less understanding. Onyekachi?
Onyekachi Wambu
Thanks. Yeah, I wanted to deal on the issue of understanding and narratives, and I agree with both of my colleagues about the contribution. But I wanted to talk, really, about how those contributions are understood and whether, in effect, we’re talking about the last 100 years or whatever. And I wanted to try and expand the notion of contribution to talk about what is actually being discussed today at the Commonwealth Conference in Samoa, which is there’s been a 500-year interaction that has involved Africans centrally in that Atlantic space, both in the Caribbean and on the continent and, you know, the old slave triangle, constructing this Western reality. And I would make a really big push for us to reconstruct how we understand the – that contribution in terms of Africans perhaps co-creating this space.
And there’s this notion that this space is a European hegemonic space that has been created and then, the rest of us have just added our little bits to it. And I would say that, in that sense, a contribution would be, can we reimagine this and talk about, you know, the free labour that enabled a lot of what has happened over the last 500 years to happen, in terms of finance and some of the other things that are being created? We talked about culture and the way that culture has been defined, and even in terms of ideas of freedom. After the light event, you have a lot of very abstract ideas of freedom, but freedom doesn’t get established in the abstract. It gets established in relation to Africans and it’s Africans on whose bodies that these notions of freedom are beaten out on, and that conversation is really important.
So, there’s a Western discourse about – given about freedom and I would argue that without the African, that wouldn’t have been possible in that way and it might’ve, indeed, remained an abstract conversation where, yeah, the Presidents of the Americans can be writing constitutions and defining who a man is, but then keeping enslaved people in their basements. And it’s that confrontation with the African that enables the reality it – or the things – the values that we’ve won today to become enshrined. It is a civil rights struggle and what happens there that we understand the expansion for gay and other rights in the present.
So, it – I think rather than, kind of, deal with the African as peripheral in this Western space, I want to deal with the African centrally. I think it was James Baldwin in an essay who wrote about the Black Jacobins and the Revolution in Toussaint – that Toussaint carried out in Haiti. It was James Baldwin who said that Toussaint Louverture and the Haitian enslave brought into the world more than the abolition of slavery. And I would like us perhaps to have that broader conversation and perhaps James Baldwin himself, in a poem that he wrote, called the ‘Imagination’, wondered whether Christopher Columbus had been discovered by what he’d discovered.
Tighisti Amare
Thank you, Onyekachi. So, yes, there’s – there is a lot, but perhaps we can look at some specifics, so I’ll start with you, Natalie. So, you direct the Black Heritage Support Service, which you founded, as well, I believe, and an advocacy organisation that is playing a crucial role in addressing some of the unique challenges of the Black community, particularly accessing public service and civil services. So, do you think your work, along with other forms of advocacy from within the Black community, is having a lasting impact on public policy and service delivery more broadly in the UK?
Natalie Scarlett
I think that advocacy is on continuous rotation, and it’s almost like – I think with advocacy, it’s almost like, in regards to the Black community, it’s like an inherited debt that we’ve continually been doing for so long. So, I’d like to say yeah, I can see the end line, it’s embedded, we’ve got it there and it’s going to make a long-lasting change, but I think through experience, we’ve seen that it’s something that’s constantly needed. And the, kind of, biggest or significant changes we’ve seen has been because of advocacy, all the way from the abolishment of slavery to the first Race Relations Act, to more recently, with the Black Lives Matter movement, the ending of the race riots that we’ve just had. So, it’s an important tool that definitely creates the foundation for long-lasting change, but we can see that, you know, sort of, 60 years on, past the first Race Relations Act, and we’ve still got, you know, schoolchildren who can’t go to school. Ruby Williams who couldn’t go to school because she had Afro hair out. So, we’ve still got the same issues, although to a different degree, that we had back then, 60 years ago.
So, I think policy – when there’s policy change, it’s important, but that policy change alone doesn’t necessarily create the long-lasting change. It’s the implementation part. It’s the designing of the services. It’s a complete redesign of the systems and services that exist, because we still have the same poor outcomes for Black people. Black people are more likely to be at risk of homelessness. We’re more likely to die earlier from cancer. We’re more likely to have late treatment. We’re more likely to – our kids are more likely to have respiratory illnesses because of where they’re living. So, we’re still seeing some of the same issues that we saw 60/100 years ago.
So, I think in terms of long-lasting change, it’s important for a redesign of systems and services to happen and not just the change of policy alone, in my opinion.
Tighisti Amare
And a lot of it is also about socioeconomics, obviously, and yes, this lack of – or the difficulty of accessing public service is impacting the Black community. But perhaps there is also learning from some of the work that you’re doing for other communities within the UK, from different socioeconomic background, that perhaps don’t have the same level of knowledge of systems. So, in that sense…
Natalie Scarlett
Yeah.
Tighisti Amare
…do you think…
Natalie Scarlett
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Tighisti Amare
…this is having…
Natalie Scarlett
Abso…
Tighisti Amare
…any…?
Natalie Scarlett
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, abso – oh, yeah, it has a impact, absolutely, advocacy has a impact, and we’re seeing some of those changes constantly happening. So, yeah, being able to network and people having access to people with the right information is really important, but I just think in terms of it being actually long-lasting and making that change, it has to be – our services has to be designed in an inclusive way. So, the Sickle Cell Society, I think, did a – released a report that is called, “No-one is Listening,” and essentially, what they found was 40% of NHS healthcare workers didn’t understand how to treat sickle cell patients. And that meant a lot of premature deaths, because our services are not fit for purpose for the Black community.
And this is where the advocacy does come into play. So, if we do want that long-lasting change, we need to ensure that our services and systems understand what needs exist across communities and that isn’t completely there yet. So, for us, that is our quest, that is our aim, to ensure that advocacy continues.
Tighisti Amare
Thank you, and Olu, in terms of institutions such as The Africa Centre, what kind of impact do you think they’ve had on modern Britain, in particular in terms of reshaping both domestic, but also international, perceptions of power, of identity and representation of Black communities?
Olu Alake
In various ways. So, The Africa Centre, for those who don’t know, was set up in 1964. At that time, I think about two thirds of Africa was still under colonial rule and London was, still is in many ways, the centre of the colonial world. And a lot of the Africans who were in London at the time were, you know, either students or on short-term courses to learn how to administer, you know, those colonies either just become independent or about to become independent. And then, people – we also had the people who settled in the UK, as well. So, the – having an organisation like The Africa Centre has done several things, and most cultural institutions would be able to point at any number of those – of these things, as well. From one, cul – preserving that sense of cultural identity and heritage, I think is a really important role that these institutions play.
The Africa Centre has, you know, been African before being African became cool, you know. It’s been – and that’s always been at the forefront of its identity and its mission. But also, as well, in the 80s, when that sense of Black Britishness was being forged, you know, The Africa Centre was a very important crucible for conversation, for debates, for shaping that identity of Black Britishness. You know, it was to make it more inclusive of the global African family and not to just people from the Continent of Africa, recently arrived from the Continent of Africa.
Then there’s education, you know. Oh, I mentioned education in my first response, but it’s very important to recognise the role that these institutions play in educating not just the primary target audience of the people who the institutions are primarily there for, but the wider society, as well. And understanding – we’re in Black History Month now, you know, the conversations as to, “Why should we have Black History Month? When should Black History Month be and what should Black History Month be? You know, what would make it meaningful?” have come out of cultural institutions such as ours. I understood from Professor Gus John, very, very recently, that he actually wrote the first whitepaper on including Black history in the British curriculum, at The Africa Centre in the late 60s, which was very interesting. But that’s the kind of role that they play.
And then, there is the understanding and the opportunity that, you know, cultural institutions play in providing a platform for people of the heritage that they represent, in our case of people of African heritage, where mainstream opportunities are not at a premium, or in the 70s/60s, didn’t exist at all. So, it was interesting to note how many Artists had – how many African Artists, or Black Artists in general, had their first art exhibition at The Africa Centre, when – ‘cause that was at a time when no other gallery was opening spaces to them. Again, African art wasn’t cool back then.
It’s interesting, it’s been our 60th anniversary, been going through the archives, and you just see all those names from the 70s and 80s who have now become household names. Two of them, two of the Artists who had their first exhibition at the Afri – first – had their first exhibitions at The Africa Centre, have gone on to win Turner Prizes, you know, I think about things that way. Musicians from the continent, most of – there is no Musician that has a global profile now, from the 70s and 80s, that did not have their concert, probably their first concert, at The Africa Centre, you know. So, those are the, kind of, roles that they play.
And then, in terms of international, so it’s not just about the inward – the outward-in perspective, but inward-out as well. You also need to understand the impacts that these institutions have back on the global stage and the wider global stage. In the 70s, The Africa Centre was effectively, the de facto headquarters of the anti-Apartheid movement, you know. So, ANC dissidents who knew that they were being targeted at Liliesleaf House in Islington, would usually meet at The Africa Centre. Africa Centre’s bar was actually called Soweto, you know, because that’s where the Tambos, Mbekis, Tutus and everyone, that’s where they hung out. And that helped to shape and reshape the narrative, as well, about freedom and, you know, Mandela’s first less – Mandela’s letter smuggled out of prison in the late 80s was read at The Africa Centre. He didn’t want it read anywhere else. So, that’s the, kind of, important role that they played in shaping global narratives, as well as the local narratives.
Tighisti Amare
Excellent. Well, we’ll come to what is its role going forward in a minute, but focusing a bit on the African diaspora, Onyekachi, that has been your thing for a very long time, since I’ve known you, back in 20 – 2009, I think. And in the UK, how do you see the African diaspora influencing discussions? Like, there’ve been clearly many instances of influence, but discussions around social, political and economic development, not just within the UK but back in where they originally come from.
Onyekachi Wambu
Yeah, thanks. I think they’ve been very important, and – but I also just wanted to talk about how these diasporas construct – produce. And when we – the first people who started AFFORD, I came in perhaps ten years after the first generation of AFFORD people, they – it was very clear that they were inspired by other examples of diaspora activism.
And to go back again to that framework that I’m trying to talk about of – the framework of exchange, of collaboration, of partnership and of resistance, they took inspiration from people like Olaudah Equiano, who actually founded the sons – there weren’t many daughters here at the time – at the end of the 18t Century in London, to fight the slave trade. And it was his interventions, his book, the interesting narrative that – and some of the other Africans who were here, some of them had been freed, as – captured as young people, like Sancho and others, and they started that campaign ‘cause it was based on their realities. As Equiano said, it was the ‘val’ trade, and London and England, and the UK, was at the centre of it, certainly in the Anglo speaking world. So, if you were going to take some of that on, then this was the place to do it.
So, we were, kind of, inspired by that activism and London has remained the centre, along with Europe, of the, kind of, economic system that was constructed aft – as part of that 500-year intervention. And so, yes, if you’re going to do that kind of activism to talk about trade, to talk about debt, to talk about aid, then this is a good place to do all of that, and – but also to talk about what the Africans bring to the table. So, I think we helped put the issues of remittances on the agenda. We helped put, you know, some of these other forms of capital accumulation, you talked about Pardner, and you know, remittance, in a way, is – has been the way that Africans have used to negotiate what is quite an unfair international trading system.
So, at one point, in Nigeria, Nigerian Federal Government in 2019, the Federal Government, so for everything in the Federal Government, roads, health, education, investment, everything, you know, the Federal Government budget was about $19 billion for over 200 million people. And in that year, the remit – diaspora remittances were about 22 billion. So, you could ask yourself, who is actually holding up the Nigerian economy?
Natalie Scarlett
Yeah.
Onyekachi Wambu
So, there are these ways of intervening, putting those issues on the agenda. Our disappointment has been that we haven’t been able to really maximise the impact that the diaspora can have, given, as I’ve just described in one small economy, in one of the major economies in Africa, the role that potentially, they could play in that economy. We haven’t been creative enough to work out the different interventions that can happen and we haven’t been able to sometimes convince our partners here about how they could work with the diaspora to make a much more impactful – yeah, to make much more impact. So, some frustrations, but I mean, we – it’s clear that there is a big role for the diaspora to play.
But I do want to just stress that thing again about narratives and the narratives we tell ourselves about development, about everything else. So, I remember once on that score about how much the diaspora puts back, yes, it’s peer-to-peer, it’s individuals, but if you look at the weight of it, it’s enormous. And I’m in a meeting with one of the top five NGOs in this country and they’re trying to work out how to work with the diaspora, and we sit in the meeting, first few hours go by and, “When are we going to talk about the diaspora?” “Yeah, we’re coming to it.” “When are you going to” – you know, lunch, and I’m getting frustrated. So, as you can see, I tend to speak my mind, so I said, “Well, how much do you have to spend in your – for this five-year strategy that you’re putting together?” And they said, “Oh, 100 million.” So, I said, “What? So, that’s what, 20 million a year?” The Ghanian President arrived last week to thank Ghanaians abroad for sending about a billion to Ghana in one year. So, in a way, I’m, kind of, wasting my time here.
Tighisti Amare
Yeah.
Onyekachi Wambu
But you didn’t want to be as rude as that, but yeah, so we have to really look at these economies, our role in that space, and talk about how we understand that. How we understand history, how we understand – otherwise, when – you know, I was listening to LBC over the last few days, so – about the Reparations Conference, and people are saying, “Oh, it was so long ago, why are they talking about this?” And if you don’t understand all of this, then when things like the Caribbean Islands trying to make their case come forward, you – people are puzzled. They don’t realise that, actually, this history is so entangled and not just entangled, that it’s not as far away as they think it is. That if you take that period of the beginnings of that slave period and then the fight for freedom from slavery, the fight for civil rights, whether America or the Civil War, the fight for independence, what you’re looking at is a fight for over 500 years for removing the codification of people of African heritage as second class or enslaved people. And this doesn’t end until 1994 in South Africa.
So, this is not something that is a long time ago. This is – in different locations this battle has happened, which is why I want to talk about it as an African Atlantic, because you don’t then understand the dynamism of what’s going on in those spaces. Sorry to have gone on for so long, but…
Tighisti Amare
No worries. Think I have a last round of questions, but perhaps we’ll make it very fast this time so that we can bring in the audience, as well. So, I will stay with you, Onyekachi, because you talked a lot about the representation and lack of understanding. And you’ve had quite a bit of experience in media, so – and the media does play an important role. How do you see the representation of Black communities changing? How has it changed over the years?
Onyekachi Wambu
Well, the interactions have led to change. The – you know, we talked about the Race Relations Act. We talked about different things. There’s now a protected – you know, there’s a whole equality agenda, the Africans have contributed to that. But I wanted to really focus on that question on the things that we do to change that conversation and renegotiate. I remember I was Editor of The Voice and before I went to work at the BBC, one of the last things I did was to commission a feature on this boat that had come in 40 years before, and the UK bringing in most of the people from – or the first lot of people from the Caribbean, the Windrush. Nobody was talking about it, you know, we were aware that some of the people who had come over were beginning to die or return home, and it seemed like a moment to talk about that experience. From 1988, when that happened, to 1998, a Windrush industry exploded. Again, I guess propelled primarily because people were dying or returning home.
I did a book in 98, there were TV programmes, it was amazing, but what was interesting was 25 years later, last year, I did another book because I was concerned that Windrush was now being described almost as the Mayflower in reverse, as the first time that people of African origin came here. And it was, like – so, another mythology comes in, so you have to say, “No, actually, this is a 500-year relationship,” which is what my last book tried to correct, and to say, “Look, the Windrush was important in that discourse, but it’s not the end of that – it’s not the beginning or the end of that discourse.”
Tighisti Amare
Great, thank you. So, I’m still going to be in that, what has changed? How do things change? So, to you, Natalie, in terms of a lot of your work on – around inclusion of Black, neurodivergent and deaf communities. It’s a – quite a inclusion in tech of these different communities. There is a lot to be learned from this kind of work. Where did you see the key issues around promoting diversity for these different kind of groups, and what are the key learnings for organisations, other organisations, and sectors, from the work that you have done? I’m just going to give you a minute, though, sorry.
Natalie Scarlett
Cheers. So, no, it’s alright, it’s okay. The tech industry – Black people only make up 3% of the tech industry, so there’s under-representation. Of that, only 1% are women and less than 1% are Black Caribbean people. So, one of the issues stems from childhood. STEM representation amongst Black children is still low and although it’s increased with West Africans, Black Caribbean children still aren’t engaged in the same way. So, there’s a number of things that people can do to, kind of, incrouse – increase diversity across STEM. One is to engage our youth in STEM, to make an active and productive plan to engage our children in the tech industry.
So, with Tech Rootz, which is what I run, we create simulations for young people. My son is absolutely obsessed with gaming and a lot of chil – our children are consumers, but they don’t see themselves behind, on the other side. So, we try to create simulations where they get some agency and autonomy, and they get to design the sound effects for some of the characters. They get to design the characters so they look like them, and this is something that I, kind of, missed out and my generation missed out when we were younger. So, at a school age level, it’s creating that world for children so they see themselves in the tech industry.
When you go into the profession in tech, it’s about targeted recruitment. The tech industry can seem like this affluent, kind of, industry and there’s a, kind of, language we use within it. It makes it seems like you have to be like Iron Man to enter it, and it’s not that at all. So, I think tech companies need to think about their recruitment and what they value. If they only recruit from particular universities, for example, they’re only going to get particular people, and Oxford and Cambridge in 2016 had 40% of their admissions from private schools. That reduced to 30% in 2020 because they had a policy which says they need to start recruiting from state schools, ‘cause you can find talent anywhere, it’s not a brand. So, companies need to really work on and think about what they value and where they’re seeking talent. I’ll stop there.
Tighisti Amare
Great, thank you, and finally, Olu. Clearly, African culture, Black culture more generally, is very much mainstreamed in the UK, especially in London. If you live in London, I no longer need to come to The Africa Centre for exhibition. I can go to the Royal Academy or Somerset House. You know, music industry is booming by African artists. Tickets are being sold in minutes now. So, there’s a lot that has been mainstreamed and appreciated by different communities within the UK, all communities within the UK, I would say. So, in that setting, what is the role of institutions, such as The Africa Centre? What is it that they should do, looking ahead, to enhance further inclusion, understanding and cultural diplomacy?
Olu Alake
I’ll answer the question by telling you a very, very short story, and it’s late last year, we put on a cultural takeover day of the centre for Lusophone African countries. So, those are the countries, the Portuguese speaking African countries. So, it was great to – you know, you came to the building, you had a Cape Verdean band playing, you had Angolan food, you had Mozambiquan drinks in the bar, there was a Kizomba workshop, there’s an art gallery full of, you know, art from all these different Lusophone countries. We make all these assumptions, ‘cause we’re a continent divided by language, that each language bloc knows about the other one and they know all about each other.
And at the end of the day, one of the ladies who came, came up to me and said, “I just want to thank you for today, it’s really meant a lot to me.” And I’ve asked her, “Exactly what difference has it made?” And she said, “For the first time since my stay in the UK, over 20 years, this is the first time I have felt seen.” And I think that’s the powerful role that organisations like The Africa Centre still have to play, you know, you’re being a platform where people can learn about things, connects people, create that community and enable people to be seen. That’s really fundamental.
Yes, you can walk down any road, not just in London, anywhere in the world now, and you’ll hear Asake or Ayra Starr, you know, booming out of someone’s car, or any party’s not complete with an Afrobeats section and so on. And we went to an Indian wedding recently and they had an Afrobeats section. It’s really weird. But beyond all that – you know, you could find that anywhere, but there are certain things, certain conversations, there are certain issues that will only be addressed within the intentionality that organisations like The Africa Centre still have to do.
Tighisti Amare
Wonderful, thank you. I do apologise, we took a longer time than anticipated for this initial session, but it is for you now to ask your questions. If you want to rai – ask question, raise your hand and one of my colleagues working will bring the mic. Yeah, just…
Member
Thank you very much. That was a fantastic talk, really appreciate that. So, my question, and I’ll provide a brief bit of context, so early this month, two of the four final contenders for Conservative Party leadership were of African heritage. And going into the final round, Kemi Badenoch, so one of two who’s of African heritage, so that’s a 50% representation at both those stages, you know, which is really, really great. But James Cleverly, our first Black Foreign Secretary, has said – he’s rejected calls to confront our colonial past and Kemi Badenoch, who might well be the next Leader of the Opposition, has said she doesn’t “care about colonialism,” that’s a direct quote, and “The UK’s wealth isn’t from white privilege and colonialism.” So, to my question, do you think embracing post-colonial perspectives is essential to being a positive force for the representation and empowerment of British Afro-Caribbean communities, and as a corollary, do you see figures like James and Kemi as allies or obstacles to your work? Thank you.
Tighisti Amare
Thank you. Any other questions? Here.
Member
Good evening, my name is [inaudible – 47:21]. I’m a student of international political economy in King’s College. So, my question is pretty simple, I would say, in comparison to the last. I would simply like to know, what are your recommendations on how we can use these cultural influences in the economic field? Yeah, that’s it. Thank you.
Tighisti Amare
Any other questions? Okay, so, I’ll start with the second question, which was the easier one. Natalie, would you like to take?
Natalie Scarlett
So, your question was how we can use cultural influences in?
Member
The economic field, ‘cause I feel like most of the discussions we have in terms of the influence that Africans can have is limited, I would say, to the cultural sector. But how do you think we could use that same influence we have in the cultural sector more significantly in the economic sector, as well?
Tighisti Amare
I can – maybe Olu, you might want to take that?
Olu Alake
The – I mean, what – it’s very, very important to recognise the importance of entrepreneurship and innovation across all sectors, and in culture especially, it’s very important that we understand and ensure that we build within our education systems. And by ‘education systems’ I don’t just mean the formal education system, but the informal education system. It’s another conversation entirely, which we need to have with young people, with ourselves, to ensure that we are maximising the economic potential of our cultural output and we’re not just producing consumers of that output, you know.
So – and again, cultural institutions such as ours play a role in that, but the everyday institutions, as well, from the family to the extended family, to the informal education system that we – many of us access, it’s very important that we understand talent and innovation. And, you know, all the things that we are happy to consume, have economic value and we need to put ourselves – educate ourselves in a way that we are able to maximise that value.
Tighisti Amare
Onyekachi, do you want to take the question from, I didn’t take the name?
Onyekachi Wambu
Yeah, in the lead-up to slavery being abolished, Parliament was full of Planters who didn’t want slavery abolished, and they made all the arguments of not wanting slavery abolished. And I’m sure if there were some Black Planters who were there, they would’ve made the same arguments, yeah? ‘Cause – so, you expect to hear that. Slavery was eventually abolished, for lots of complicated reasons, but primarily because those who were enslaved didn’t want to continue to be enslaved and they made alliances with progressive whites, who understood the principles at stake. The interesting thing is that 200 years later, all those who were against it are now saying this is a great example of British behaviour, yeah? So, they’ll catch up with us in time.
Olu Alake
Can I answer that?
Tighisti Amare
Yes, sure.
Olu Alake
Yeah, the simple question – the simple answer whether they’re allies or enemies, is they’re not allies. What they demonstrate more than anything else are the limits of representation and how facile it is for us to make very simplistic arguments about representation based on, you know, skin colour. You know, it’s far more complicated than that and one of the things we have not talked about as much on the stage tonight is power and, you know, the quest for power, how it ensures that people can act against the interests of the people that they actually are because they want to, you know, gain access to a power system, as Onyekachi said, that they benefit from, you know. So, that’s the pinch of salt.
And we also need to understand, as well, again referring some of the other brilliant Writers that have been referred on stage, Hall, Baldwin and so on, that race – there’s race and there’s class and class is still very, very much a very dominant force in British society. And the Badenochs, Cleverlys, I’m not being political, their equivalents in other parties, as well, you know, represent – and their interests lie more in preserving a class structure than it does in making real change for the communities that they, ostensibly, represent.
Tighisti Amare
And okay, we’ve got two here.
Member
Hiya, thank you so much for this conversation. It’s been really fantastic to listen to it, and I, kind of, have a question for everybody, really, which is, the conversation today is focused a lot on London, in particular, as a – particularly from a historical focus, as, like, the heart of the colonial empire. And we’ve also talked a lot about the Atlantic and crossings and about famous African and Caribbean actors, like Sancho and Equiano and those other figures. And I was just wondering, in your opinion, is London still that space of production for these conversations? Like, is it a space for these powerful, creative spaces for these political conversations, or is that somewhere else in the globe? And if it is still London, why and where could it be across the globe? Thank you.
Tighisti Amare
Thank you. There was – yeah.
Bamidele
Hi, good evening, my name is Bamidele. I just have a quick question for you guys. Do you think the African-Caribbean society as a group has actually done much to address the inequality in Great Britain, inequality as per educational opportunities, economic? And, basically, like, you’ve mentioned narratives, even access to the media and also, have we actually been able to maximise the exposure of social media, because I’ve got a kid now and he’s always watching Tik Tok and what have you? I’ll stop at that.
Tighisti Amare
Okay, can we take one final question?
Ellie
Yeah, so my name’s Ellie and I just had a question on, in your opinion, how can young Africans/Caribbeans in the UK promote development in those nations whilst challenging the possible paternalistic attitudes to aid and development?
Tighisti Amare
Okay, exce…
Natalie Scarlett
Sorry, could you repeat that?
Ellie
Yeah, so…
Natalie Scarlett
How…?
Ellie
…do you think young Africans/Caribbeans in the UK can promote development in those nations whilst challenging the possible paternalist attitudes to aid and development in the UK?
Tighisti Amare
Okay, wonderful. Is London still the centre, the hub, as we imagine it? And so, perhaps we’ll start with you, Olu, and Natalie, I think that the last questi – oh, the last question should be going to you, Onyekachi. Natalie, is it really true that we have done enough to address inequality?
Natalie Scarlett
Yes.
Tighisti Amare
Hmmm hmm.
Natalie Scarlett
More than. I think we’ve spoke about it this entire evening, absolutely. I think we do too much. I think we need to rest. I think we’re exhausted. So, yes is the short answer, and I wanted to, kind of – I’m not from here. I don’t think anyone can tell, but I’m not from London. You’re, like, “Well, yeah.” I’m from Birmingham and I think the conversation lies with power, right, and who has the platforms to, kind of, create these spaces for these conversations. And London can certainly do that, but I think things are changing now, especially with tech, people having agency and the ability to create their own spaces, whether that’s virtual, whether that’s in the real world. It hasn’t always been here.
I, kind of, talked about the Bristol Boycotts, kind of, earlier and that movement happening there. All the movements that were happening around 1958, not just in Notting Hill, but in Nottingham, in Birmingham, in Liverpool, in Manchester. So, these conversations has always been happening. It’s just that London has the power to create platforms that allows a wider discussion on this scale, but I think that’s changing now and shifting. And I think we’re connecting more globally as a diaspora and allies and we’ve seen that with the Black Lives Matter movement.
And then, to – sorry, I’m answering all of them. Is it one…?
Tighisti Amare
No, so, absolutely…
Natalie Scarlett
Was it one each?
Tighisti Amare
I will give you each…
Natalie Scarlett
Is that…?
Tighisti Amare
…posa – opportunity to address them.
Natalie Scarlett
And I was just – was your question about – can you just repeat it quickly just to make sure I’ve got that right?
Olu Alake
Young people.
Ellie
Yeah, how can young Africans – oh, thank you. How can young Africans and Caribbeans in the UK promote development in those nations…
Natalie Scarlett
Ah.
Ellie
…whilst challenging possible paternalistic attitudes to aid and development?
Natalie Scarlett
Oh, right. So, I think one is to – this idea of Pan-Africanism and this united cohesion amongst African and Caribbean people has to span go – be on a global scale, right, outside of your own, kind of, immediate space. And I think a good example of that, there’s a guy called Jermaine Craig that’s got this company called, I think it’s called Kwansa [means Kwanda].
Olu Alake
Kwanda.
Natalie Scarlett
And Kwanda, right – he’s a Philanthropist and he’s connected people across the diaspora. It’s amazing and again, tech has been utilised in that because it allows quick and easy access of people to be able to invest into some of these solutions that can start projects across the entire diaspora, not just here, but giving back, and creating again, this ecosystem. Like, an ecosystem’s certainly really important. So, joining those networks, making sure you’re in the right spaces, with likeminded people, to create these, kind of, philanthropist investments, I think for me, that is one of the most impactful ways.
Olu Alake
Another important example of that, just to build on the last answer, is at The Africa Centre, we have the Young Africa Centre, which of course, it’s of 18 to 32-year-olds and they have their own programme of activity, where they actually discuss these kind of things. They talk about travel, they talk about African philosophy and spirituality, economics and what they can learn from Africa and so on. So, I think, as Natalie said, working together, educating yourself. The theme of Black History this year is “Reclaiming Narratives.” For some of us, or many of us, it’s about claiming the narratives, not even reclaiming it. You need to understand what you don’t know before you can learn what you do need to know and how you can contribute. And recognising – know who you are, you know, I think that’s still the most important message for young people, for us all, actually.
Onyekachi Wambu
Yeah, thanks. Can I just deal quickly with the question about London? I mean, London has its – is obviously still a hugely influential financial centre and sometimes there are issues with that with the rest of the UK. I mean, London and the South-East, as we’ve seen with the whole Brexit and Reform, kind of, people who are unsettled by that. So, it’s not just a global, kind of, disparity, it’s also within the UK itself. But I like to deal with, kind of, fundamentals, despite London and Europe being still very important centres. In the mid-1980s, for about 150/200 years, the most important trading route in the world was betwe – was across the Atlantic, between Europe and America. In the mid-1980s, that changed to across the Pacific, and they’re saying from thirt – 2030 onwards, it’s going to be within Asia. So, the decline is happening, it’s – and a lot of the turbulence you’re seeing globally has to do with how people are coming to terms with that decline.
How young Africans do development. What I’ve tried to say today is that irrespective of the conditions we found ourselves in, even under slavery, we tried to do development. We tried to have discourses about freedom, about the value of the individual, about – you know, we can decide to elevate these conversations ourselves, or we can pretend that they were, kind of, marginal things that we did in the shadows. So, I’ll challenge young people to look at that inheritance in the Atlantic world, look at the things that worked. Not all of it worked. Looked at other ways that people tried to make progress, the collaborations, the alliances that they had with white progressives, and, you know, what is it they say? You know, “Morning Yet on Creation Day.” So, you have to redo it every day.
And so, there’s “no easy answers,” but – Cabral used to say that, “no easy answers,” but we have to look at the resources that we have, the alliances and collaborations that we can make with those who see some of the principled positions we want going forward, and then we try and make the world.
Tighisti Amare
Thank you and that’s, I think, a really good way to finish our conversation. Thank you, all. This was fascinating. Thank you for spending the last hour with us and for answering all this different range of questions from everyone, and thank you so much for our audiences, as well, for joining us for this conversation. We have a reception and an exhibition upstairs. The Curator of the exhibition, as well as Jay, who is our EDI Co-Chair for Race and Ethnicity at Chatham House, will be saying few words about the exhibition. So, I also want to thank the EDI Group for putting this together. They keep on informing everyone within the institute, but also more broadly, on some of the critical issues around different strands of diversity. So, thank you, everyone, and look forward to seeing you upstairs. Thank you [applause].
