Yasmine Dong
Hi, welcome everyone, and welcome to people online and in the room. My name is Yasmine Dong. I’m a Senior Trade Policy Adviser at the Department of Business and Trade. I’m – today, I will be moderating the discussion on “Leadership in international relation: building on women and legacy.” Before we start, I would like to thank the – the event has been host by the Chatham House Diversity – Equality and Diversity and Inclusion. The Chair is Joseph Osayande; he’s somewhere in the room. That the Working Group has been established since 2010, and we very thanks them to have us today. So, before we start the conversation, I just want to, kind of, highlight that the event is on record and be recording.
So, how the conversation will work, because we really want that – we really want this to be a discussion. So, I will start by asking a few question to the panel and, as well, I will basically open the floor for you in the room and people online to, as well, asking question and then, obviously, sharing your reflection. So, I will start by introducing the panel and you will understand why those women are the best in their field.
So, I will start by Zizette Darkazally is an Associate Fellow of the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Chatham House. Zizette is a Lawyer by background and she’s an Independent Consultant for a range of Middle East related initiative and project, including Track II diplomacy. She has previously worked for the UN and order – international organisation, covering political, electoral, legal communication and humanitarian portfolio in the Middle East and North Africa region.
I will now move to Professor Karen Smith, the Professor of International Relation at the London School of Economy [means Economics] and Political Science, and Co-Founder and Director of the LSE IDEA Women at their Women in Diplomacy Project. Her main research interests lie in the field of re – of foreign policy analysis and the study of international organisation. She has published widely, including on feminist foreign policy, the role of women in diplomacy and foreign policymaking, and the role of the group of UN multilateralism. Karen is also a member of Chatham House Research Committee.
Then I will move through Professor Patricia Owens, so a Professor of International Relation at the University of Oxford. Her research interests including 20th Century international history and theory, historical and contemporary practice of Anglo-America counterinsurgency and intervention, and her history of political thought. In 2018 – between 2018 and 2023, she was Principal Investigator of the Leverhulme Trust, from their research on women and the history of international thought, and she published a recent book on “Erased: an history of international thought without men,” very topical.
And the last, Naomi Davey is a Legal Director in the UK Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office, leading on defence and security sanction, FCDO, operation matters and treaties. She has worked for the UK Government since 2022, 22 – 2002…
Naomi Davey
2000…
Yasmine Dong
…sorry.
Naomi Davey
Yeah.
Yasmine Dong
…2002, initially as a Litigator. Was post to Iraq in 24 as a Justice Advisor and spent four years as an Advisory at the HM Treasury. Naomi has been the National Security Committee Social Mobility Champion since 2022, and she sit at the Dep – as a Deputy High Court Judge in the family division of the High Court.
So, hi, everyone, welcome. So, I will start by asking a question to all of you, to – so, this – so, I would like to – because obviously, we have, like, a wide range of experience and background, and I just want – I would like to ask how present is gender in the work you do lead and how have gender show up for you in your own career and your own experience? So, I will start by Zizette.
Zizette Darkazally
Sure. Well, thank you very much for having me on this panel with these amazing women, and thank you for coming today. I counted seven men in the audience. I don’t know if I’m right. I can’t see online, but seven men. So, just, kind of, a mental note and – which I’m sure…
Member
And all the men.
Zizette Darkazally
…will feature within our conversation. Just to add, I’m coming to this panel from a practice point of view. I haven’t participated in research. I did not – I can’t validate data. So, I’m just going to share with you our takeaways from how gender featured in my career in the past 20 years, and I have worked also in different jurisdictions. I’ve worked in Lebanon, in Tunisia, in Libya, Central Africa Republic, Geneva, New York, so in a diverse way, the diverse audiences and stakeholders. But still, regardless, gender was very present on three different stages.
One was institutional. So, in terms of hierarchy, in terms of senior leadership, was always, or most of the time, men, predominantly men, in my career. There’s also the power dynamics that were in the institution were very clearly there and present, and I think it’s when you see these power dynamics, you can’t unsee them, and you, kind of like, implement them throughout all of your career. Also, in institutional projects, for example, we’d always have – whenever we, kind of, have projects for donors, women empowerment was always a buzzword that would generate a donation. Not necessarily because the purpose of the project was to empower women, but because it’s really a good – it sounds great to generate money.
And there was also the thing that always women are coupled, women and children and then the elderly, or women or children, and – which suggest, kind of, weakness or the need for protection. And that was – I mean, it wasn’t all the time like this, but that was a predominant sentiment that I saw throughout. But that’s all – and also, on the institutional level, I may add that there was always a gender focal point, there were all policies and courses that one would need to also take before you go – before you get into the job. I mean, you know, it’s one of these courses online where you click, click, click so you can just get it done, rather than really reading the content, but nevertheless, it’s there. It asserts itself as a certain – as a need.
So, that’s on the – on a situational level. On the personal level, my first job in the UN, I was a Junior Lawyer, and I was invited to a senior meeting, and I was very happy to, kind of, be considered for the meeting, to be at the table. I was the most junior, I was the local staff, and when we sat at the table with the senior representative, who was a man from a Western country, which is important for the conversation, we sat down, he looked at us, and the first thing he say, he looked around, the first thing he said, “Zizette, can you get some coffee?”
Yasmine Dong
Hmmm.
Zizette Darkazally
And I remember that shocked me to the core, and I looked around – I thought maybe because I’m a local staff, but I know there are other local staff. Maybe because I’m a junior staff, no, there are other junior staff, but I was the only junior local female staff. And while that really undermined my trust in the system, it was immediately restored when a senior male colleague stood up and said, “I will get the coffee. Her job is much more important than mine, ‘cause she has to document everything you say.” And so, that was, you know, like, my first, kind of, also, intervention – intern – interaction in terms of allies that are in the system.
And also, on the personal level, there’s also the juggling of family life, of course. I had two little children throughout this whole UN career in different judistations [means jurisdictions] and it’s not always easy. That such job always require you to travel, after hours work and, also, we work during the weekends, and we just have to right to fin – to give the right – to find the right balance. And lastly, it features with stakeholders. I worked in negotiation – I led negotiations and mediation, political mediation, negotiations, where women constituencies were present and I saw firsthand how they contributed and bettered and enriched the outcome of the political negotiations when they were there and their positive constitution – contribution.
I’ll stop there, and happy to elaborate more if there are questions.
Yasmine Dong
Thanks, Zizette. Karen, what about you?
Professor Karen Smith
Sure, yeah. So, gender’s currently very present in my work and I’m pleased that the Chatham House has put on this particular event with these wonderful co-panellists. I’m going to talk mostly about the LSE IDEAS Women in Diplomacy Project. The LSE IDEAS is a bit of the LSE, the think tank for international policy in a – international diplomacy and strategy that links academia with practitioner – the practitioner and policymaking world. And I am the Co-Founder, along with Marta Kozielskais, who is also the Project Manager.
And the Women in Diplomacy Project began in 2022 with the simple empirical observation that less than a quarter of the world’s Ambassadors are women and that that percentage has been increasing only extremely slowly. So, we have sought to understand why there has been, what are the reasons for the underrepresentation and what might produce more representation? And this i – this underrepresentation is despite evidence, consistent evidence, that has shown that women’s participation in diplomacy, as well as diverse leadership, improves the quality and durability of decisions and agreements, produces more comprehensive people-oriented policies and delivers measurable gains in peace, governance and economic outcomes.
So, we have sought to identify key obstacles to women’s representation in diplomacy and policymaking and how they can be overcome, to share knowledge, recommendations, research-based strategies, resources and practical tools with women’s networks, including women’s networks of women Diplomats, foreign ministries and international organisations, such as the UN, to accelerate the representation and to amplify women’s voices. To build a global network of women Diplomats, allies, practitioners and experts, to try to drive transformative structural change, and to change the debate and practice on gender equality, diversity and women’s inclusion in policymaking.
We’ve done this through a podcast series of thus far 23 interviews with Senior women Diplomats, which is available on the LSE IDEAS channel on Spotify, as well as via our website. We’ve done many public events with practitioners and students around the world and private dialogues with Diplomats. We’ve published two reports on “Strengthening the representation of women in diplomacy,” and the latest of these was just published at the beginning of this month. It reflects lessons learned that we did in 2025 in dialogues in seven global cities, with approximately 140 Diplomats from over 50 contin – countries on all continents and at all levels, from even wannabe Diplomats through to Ambassadors.
And the work then outlines – in fact, I was given a copy of the report right there. The work outlines the barriers to re – women’s representation in diplomacy and presents a detailed toolkit for foreign ministries and embassies of measures that be – can be taken to try to mitigate those barriers. Such as, work-life balance and how to handle those kinds of issues, as well as harassment, which we heard again and again is a massive problem.
Over the next four months, we will be publishing four additional briefing papers on mentoring, the role of mentoring in diplomatic careers, for women, quotas and targets, handling the media, which we – is an ever-growing concern for those in the public eye, and work-life balance. And you can find all of our work on our website and LinkedIn page.
I mean, I’d be happy to answer more questions about the particular barriers that we discovered in the toolkit with – that we offered, but I’ll just stop here for now.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. What about you, Patricia?
Professor Patricia Owens
Thank you so much. It’s really, really wonderful to be here with all of you. I also wanted to say happy Transgender Visibility Day and I express solidarity with all our trans and non-binary siblings. So, I’m a lifelong student and academic. I don’t have any experience, really, in policy world or diplomacy. I have always wanted to be a Professor, and that’s what I have become and I’m – I love my job.
Coming up in the 1990s, in the academic field of international relations – gender and international relations, and feminist international relations was already present. And it was probably marginal in the 1990s, but I think it has now become really central to the field and the, sort of, Gender Working Groups, gender and IR as a, sort of, field of study, is really thriving. And so, that’s been a major transformation, and I think in my own research, gender has always been more implicit than explicit, until quite recently, only in the last decade. Although I think it – my – the fact that my first book was on Hannah Arendt’s international thought, I think was sparked by some sort of feminist sensibility, although I didn’t – she’s not – she was never – she never identified as a feminist. But I think there was some sort of feminist motivation there in writing the – what was then the first monograph on a woman’s international thought.
So, as mentioned previously, I was the Principal Investigator and the Director of the Leverhulme Trust research project on “Women and the history of international thought,” which was a collaboration with international Political Theorist, Kim Hutchings, and Historian, Katharina Rietzler. And we undertook a major recovery history of women thinkers in the history of international thought, focusing on Anglo-American context. Up to date the cannon – to that point, the cannon was – and almost entirely male, almost entirely white. And we knew from what Historians were saying was that international relations was actually a highly feminised field in its heyday in the beginning of the 20th Century. And we just found dozens and dozens and dozens of really significant women thinkers. That IR was, again, from the beg – from its earliest heydays, highly feminised as an intellectual field, and only later were women marginalised and erased, and I’ll say a little bit more about that later.
But we do – we did some interesting work on the history of Chatham House, in fact, and for a while, it was known as “Chatham Cat House,” because women were so influential in Chatham House doing a lot of the backroom work, founding the, sort of, science of international relations. I, sort of, think of it as, sort of, Chatham House work, in the backroom of the Information Services Department, all overseen by Margaret Cleeve. And I think there’s a Margaret Cleeve Lecture. And the other figure was ass – is as associated with the success of a major institution of British international relations as Margaret Cleeve, who was here for two – a couple of decades, from the 19 – well, than – more than two decades, the 1920s to the mid-1950s.
In terms of my own career, I think I mostly noticed the gendered effects as I became more senior. If I – I didn’t really feel them at first and then, when I – as you become more senior and you’re in more, sort of, elite settings, that you do, sort of – there is a, sort of, sense of there being a little bit of a boy’s network and a little bit of a glass ceiling. But I actually think that the biggest determinate, perhaps, of my career trajectory, was more being – well, coming from a, sort of, working class Irish immigrant family and the, sort of, Irish rebelliousness probably did me in a little bit more than my gender, I think, but I think I’ve done alright.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you, Patricia. Naomi.
Naomi Davey
Thank you, and it’s really amazing to be here having this conversation. I thought I’d bring to this some personal reflections of mine, being a senior leader in a Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the UK Foreign Office. I’ve got four children, so I’ve got a very busy home life and a really busy work life. And what I think of as my superpower, the thing that enables me to do that, is that I’ve been doing a job share for the last 14 years. So, I literally share my job, and in fact, I’ve been with the share – same job share partner for 12 years and we literally work half the week each, and that’s not something I take for granted. It’s something that’s been enabled by some amazing leaders, including male allies, in the Civil Service, and it’s not something I take for granted.
It’s – it also – as well as physically giving you space to do the job and have a busy home life, it also gives you someone with whom you have no, kind of, competition. So, we’re not in competition against each other and that’s really rare, especially as you get more senior, because there’s a level of competition in everything you do, really. And I think it’s striking that that model doesn’t exist, or at least I haven’t found examples of it in other countries. So, when I do my legal diplomacy and meet counterparts from other countries, they’re really interested in it, especially the women. They really want to know how it works and how it can be possible to do that, and that opens up really interesting conversations, generally, about diversity.
So, I think – and I’ve – but I’ve, sort of, also been reflecting on the journey that the Foreign Office has been through to get to this point and I looked back at a publication on, sort of, women in Foreign Office. And when you consider that as late as in the 1970s, if you got married as a woman in the Foreign Office, you had to resign. That had – I mean, that – in literally the 1970s, and that had a really long tail in terms of the la – senior women getting to the top. But now we’ve got female Ambassadors in nearly all the Senior Ambassador posts around the world. My boss is the first female Legal Advisor to the Foreign Office. I was looking at the wall outside her office earlier today, which is photos of all the Legal Advisors over the years, and it goes all the way back to Sir Julian Pauncefote in 1986 – 1886. And their dress sense has changed throughout the years, and they’ve got quite a few ruffs going on in the early days, but one thing is the same, they’re all white men, until we had Sally in post.
So, I think we have come a long way. I also found a brilliant quote that I thought I’d share. This is from someone in the Foreign Office, towards the end of the Second World War, where they were talking about the difficulty of getting staff back into working in the diplomatic service. And he says, “But surely when Officers are being demobilised from the intelligence corps and so many young fellows are wanting to enter the foreign service, it ought not to be too difficult to get hold of a suitable body of men. Even women are possibilities.” And then – I know, it’s brilliant, isn’t it? And then, a reflection from Lady Mayhew, who was the wife of a Foreign Office Minister in 1952. She says, “It would take a superwoman to run a Foreign Office job, a husband and a family.” And I think there are lots of superwomen in today’s Foreign Office, which is fabulous.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you, and I just want to come and pick and draw from one of your – one thing you mention, Patricia, is on a socioeconomic side. I think we had a lot of discussion around, you know, gender, race, but not so much around, like, the soon – socioeconomic aspect, when you want to embrace a career in foreign policy or international relation. So, I think, I’m just – you know, will be open to your view what role do socioeconomic factor play in career – in your – in foreign policy international relation?
Professor Patricia Owens
Yeah, thank you for that. I think I would think about this question to some extent in generational terms. So, I was the first in my family to go to university. You know, obviously, class has always shaped access to education and to university, careers and postgraduate studies, influencing sense of belonging, access, the ease within which you are in elite institutions. But in the early 1990s, which are now – of course, we look back as, sort of, the golden era in so many ways, there was widened – if – massive expansion of access to higher education. So, there were grants and there were, you know, very cheap loans. You didn’t even need to take out a loan to go to university. It was relatively – you know, it was free to go to university. So, there were a lot of first-generation scholars in my cohort and around my, sort of, age group coming up, and there were also lots of jobs in international relations in then – around about the, sort of, the late 1990s, early 2000s, as well. You know, international relations is a really exciting subject, it’s really, really popular at university, so there were jobs. Anyone who finished their PhD and got a publication and a bit of teaching experience could probe – mostly get a academic job. The question was simply where that job would be.
And that just isn’t the case anymore, and so I think that, you know, that has major socioeconomic – you know, the implic – the socioeconomic implications of that are obviously enormous. If you are the financial crisis and higher education and the expansion of casualised labour on campuses, means that socioeconomic factors, in addition to race, gender and nation secti – above all, I think, have really returned to shape quite profoundly at, like, who can, sort of, get aca – get postgraduate funding and get academic jobs and make progress. Once you have an academic job, if it’s a temporary job and you have a very high teaching load, I think it just becomes very, very difficult to publish and therefore, very, very difficult to get onto a, sort of, permanent position.
So, where class has always shaped access, I think, to academia, I think now it affects the ability of those to – who don’t come from wealthy backgrounds, to afford the, sort of, really long training periods. To feel comfortable taking on the kind of debt that you have to take on to, sort of, be in an early-stage career where you’re getting low pay and doing a lot of teaching and just, sort of, desperately trying to get onto a, sort of, permanent position. So, I think that’s been one of the big shifts in the last couple of decades in terms of how class shapes access to academia.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you, and Naomi, you are a champion of National Security Community, social mobility networks, so…
Naomi Davey
Yeah.
Yasmine Dong
…do you have, like, something you want to share?
Naomi Davey
Yeah, I, sort of, wanted to do that role because I think that until it – it’s only relatively recently that we’ve been really talking about the social mobility in the Civil Service. I think because it – socioeconomic background isn’t a protected characteristic, it wasn’t, sort of, talked about as much as, sort of, gender and race.
Yasmine Dong
Hmmm hmm.
Naomi Davey
And – but actually, I think it’s really important and there was a very interesting report that you can look at online, by the Social Mobility Commission into the socioeconomic background and progression in the Civil Service, called “Nav – la – Navigating the labyrinth,” which I think is a really good way of putting it. Which just looked at, though – although there’s, sort of, access points into the Civil Service, in fact, progressing through the Civil Service is really quite difficult. It talks about the, sort of, unwritten rules of the road that people don’t necessarily know about if they haven’t, sort of, come from a – if – or if they’ve come from a lower socioeconomic background, knowing what the, kind of, accelerator roles are. The sort of stuff that people somehow just seem to know, and then other people who don’t fill in that group don’t know.
So, unlocking some of that’s really important, and we’ve still got a way to go. I think that in terms of the senior leadership of the Civil Service and particularly in the Foreign Office, actually, the representation is low. I looked at a statistic in that report that said almost half of the senior leadership in the Foreign Office were privately educated, which is really quite an astonishing figure when you think of the levels of private education across the country. So, I think there is a way to go on that front.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. Zizette, Karen, is there anything you want to add? Especially Karen from, like, all the research you have done in – on the diplomacy field.
Professor Karen Smith
I mean, we did look at socioeconomic conditions, both as barriers to entry into the diplomatic career around the world, and some various things that have been done, for example, in Mexico, but also the socioeconomic conditions of the Foreign Ministry itself, which, you know, can effect how generous they can be in terms of trying to take measures to balance work and life.
Zizette Darkazally
I mean, I would add socioeconomic issues, as well, affect choices that women will have to make when it comes to careers in our line of work. When you have two professionals, a couple, and it goes back with if the man has a higher salary, then the woman would need to, kind of, give up her career just to join him and support him, in order for him to be able to make a better salary, at the end of the day.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. Let me come back to you, Zizette, as – because of your – the – you know, the socio – well, like, the story share about, like, what happened in the UN. I want to, kind of – I would like to know, in your view, given, like, your, you know, various experience, has the imagination of who is con – who we – who is consider as an expert in the field, you think has change, or still have work to do?
Zizette Darkazally
So, I need to clarify something, though, because when I, kind of like, was thinking about here and myself, it – this – I tried to highlight issues and challenges that I face or women in my practice face, when working for the UN and other international organisations, but it’s not all bad. There are also lots of progress and positive things that have been achieved, but what I would say is that it is not only about numbers. I mean, if you look at the data on numbers, you might find that the number of women practitioners in this space has increased, the number of even senior jobs have increased. But if you look at the quality of the jobs in terms of, like, the Head of the agency, the Head, it’s still predominantly men. So, the job – it’s not about numbers only. It’s also you’ll have to look, also, beyond the numbers.
And also, there is – I think the legal framework that would put women forward has also developed. I mean, you’ve got, like – you know, in our space, there’s the three legal formats, which is the Beijing Declaration of 1995, there is the CEDAW from 1990 – 79, and of course, the UN Resolution 1325 in our space, in women in peace and security. And these are all good and really have positive things to say, but there are gaps between the theory and the practice. And these gaps remain and need to be addressed, and most of them have to be addressed also by having the courage to have difficult conversations in that sense, within the institutions and within the wider issue of women and gender.
So, there – while there has been progress, there are still lots of gaps that would need to be tackled.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you, and Karen, obviously, I read your report and I can see that, oh, you point out in your report that they are, in term of why, women in ambassadorship, women in, like, higher ranking role in foreign policy, I think in America it’s 23%, Asia 11% and Middle East and North Afrimeri – North Africa is 11%. So, is there any progress?
Professor Karen Smith
I mean, we – so, we went to seven cities around the world, including Abu Dhabi, which is obviously not a pleasant place to be right now – including Mexico City, Ottawa, New York, London, Geneva and Brussels – Geneva and New York, because of the access to Diplomats based at the UN, to discuss some of this variation. But we heard a universal story that even in foreign ministries that seemed to be relatively – doing relatively well in terms of higher percentages of women in ambassadorial or managerial positions, there is always the risk of regression, and it is perceived to be always the risk of regression. And we heard stories that the current backlash against EDI, or DI – DEI is emboldening anyone who thought – you know, who previously kept their own comments to themselves, but now will outright say, “This is a – this is anti-woke. You’re just – you only got your job because you’re a woman.” I mean, this is now said, right, and whereas previously it might’ve just been whispered in the corridors.
However, in all of the cities that we – in all of the conversations that we held with all of these 140 plus Diplomats, we did hear stories that there are foreign ministries and embassies, particular embassies or Ambassadors, that are really trying to shift the needle. And the stories are inspiring, the kinds of lessons that we learned about what can lead to structural change, are inspiring, and we did have four paths forward. One is reframe the narrative, that when you do – think about the language that we are using, from supporting women, to demonstrating that EDI measures lead to organisational excellence. Measures to support women with caring responsibilities, also support all parents and so on.
We have to systematise the gains to embed gender equality efforts into institutional structures, because without an institutional structure, they don’t last. Engage allies, so measures – again, measures that support women’s careers in diplomacy are good for all, and then, guard against this backlash. There’s vigilance and evidence gathering and sustained commitment is needed, but above all, leadership, leadership, leadership, and very important, not just in an emb – from the embassy role, all the way up to the actual foreign ministry, but then also within the government.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you, and then, I would like to come into you, Patricia, in this – surely from a – from the – your research angle. There is, obviously, some shift in the current geopolitical context, and what would be interesting to know from your view, if the current geopolitical context has more positive or more challenging for gender policy or women in foreign policy.
Professor Patricia Owens
I mean, I think the collapse of the post-Cold War order and growth of – re-emergence of the far-right and fascist and authoritarian movements requires – you know, is clearly more concerning than where we would feel would be hopeful. I think we have to, sort of, stay abreast of the news cycle, but I think we also have to read beyond the news cycle and pursue, sort of, slow and deep scholarship to try and understand this moment. Returning to history and political thought, to anti-colonial and feminist dest – struggle in the past, to, sort of, get a grip and trying to think through what – where we are.
I think if someone like the example of someone like – so, like Hannah Arendt, as flawed as she was, she argued that in, sort of, you know, in dark times, rules and conventions are collapsing or captured by power. As what matters is whether we can still judge and speak up and keep faith, somehow, in a world that seems to be, kind of, going to hell.
Yasmine Dong
Hmmm.
Professor Patricia Owens
I think in academia, I think we’ve got to, sort of, try to build and sustain professional cultures that reward, sort of, thoughtfulness and courage and intellectual range. And, sort of, moving away from – or not just a, kind of, constant stream of, sort of, short methods-driven articles, and think, sort of, longer-term and more historically, as well as do, you know, hypothesis testing and all the stuff that we are, like, doing in academia. That would be my answer to that.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. Zizette, do you have anything to add?
Zizette Darkazally
On the geopolitical thing?
Yasmine Dong
Yes.
Zizette Darkazally
Look, so, the erosion of international law, the waning of the whole international multilateralism, how it is affecting very much the faith of geopolitics, the might of a right approach also is very much dominant, as well, by the male – by males. And Karen, you talked earlier about how, also, the erosion of the closure of, for example, the State Department and the USAID, most of the beneficiaries of these programmes were women. And so – and that is felt now in many terri – not only in the US, but also in the programmes that were from these departments, serving different parts of the world.
So, this is worrying. I – but for – in preparation for this panel, I did a – I conducted a small survey where – because I could think of many fabulous women who should be here today and share their anecdotes and their experience. And instead of – because they couldn’t be here, so I thought I’ll bring their voices to the panel. And it’s a very small service, about 25 women, but it’s, like, women who are in the State Department, UN Ambassadors, Middle East, UK, US, from around the world.
And the most – the biggest challenge that they all agreed on for the geopolitics is the regression and the coming back of a traditional approach to geopolitics and to diplomacy and to foreign policy. And that can be seen in creating the good old boys’ network, which is very, very present, which automatically means that men get more promotions, get more access to information because of this network. And the assumptions that might – that still – that exist on women traits in – when it comes to foreign policy, are reinforced. So, instead of going forward, we are, unfortunately, going backwards and the trajectory is very challenging.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you.
Professor Karen Smith
Hmmm.
Yasmine Dong
Next. Karen, is there anything you want to…?
Professor Karen Smith
Agree.
Yasmine Dong
Good. I think one of the last question, before we open to the audience, I think something like, stick with me, is this famous quote from Madeleine Albright, that “There’s a special place in hell for women who are not helping other women.” And I’m just wondering, like, in your view, how we – how do we support ourself, and as well, how we supporting women who want to entering the field of foreign policy, international relation? I’ll start by you, Naomi.
Naomi Davey
Yeah, so I mean, I might not put it quite as extremely as that, but I ter – certainly agree with that sentiment, that I mean, as a senior female leader, I feel an obligation to support more junior women in the organisation and to help people come into the organisation. I think role modelling is really important, sponsorship, mentoring is really important. And – but just the way you are present at work, the way you show up to work, the way you include people in meetings, give people space to allow their voices to be heard, I think these are all really important things that are incumbent on all leaders. But I feel it, sort of, perhaps particularly weighs on me as a woman to make sure that I’m enabling other women.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. Patricia.
Professor Patricia Owens
I mean, I just ag – I agree with that, sort of, supporting junior colleagues, women, trans and non-binary colleagues, scholars of colour, scholars with disabilities. This is necessary and it’s important to insti – for institution building and for the benefit of the institution, as well, and for ac – for the university and for academia more generally. It isn’t a, sort of, a favour to anyone. I think it’s a, sort of – it’s an obligation when we know about structural disadvantages that, you know, shape and condition who has access to these spaces and who’s more likely to get invited for job interview and to get the job.
So, there’s all kinds of ways in which we can do this work, and it’s often unseen and it’s not very glamourous and it’s, sort of, just a slow grind of quiet bureaucratic activism and work. Activism might not be the right word. We’re supposed to be reframing some of this language that we’re using. Solidarity and, kind of, intellectual and institutional solidarity.
Yasmine Dong
Thank. Karen, is there anything you wanted to add…
Professor Karen Smith
I mean, I…
Yasmine Dong
…for the last question?
Professor Karen Smith
No, I do think we need to think – turn things into action, into actual action and you know, the case has to be made again and again and again. And it’s getting very boring to have to make the case again and again and again, but yet, it has to be made again and again. So, you know, we need to turn research on the benefits of inclusion, of diversity in decision-making, in being at the table, into action. And I think we do that – I mean, well, the way that my project is doing it is through workshop stylised events, working across silos and so on, and building a global network. Because I think that the challenges are extremely severe and therefore require extra – even extra – more extra effort in this particular, rather dark…
Professor Patricia Owens
Yeah.
Professor Karen Smith
…moment in time.
Zizette Darkazally
I would add the framing of the issue needs to be changed. I mean, women – gender and women empowerment isn’t only about gender parity. I think it’s a good governance issue. It is to better the outcome of politics, to better the outcome of what we do. So, it is, if you want better outcome, then you need to involve women more. So, that’s one thing.
I would also add that networking is important in the women – and it’s starting, I can see that also, in my line of work. It’s an uphill climb. It’s just going to take time, but it – we’ll get there. I would add find allies, also it’s important to have allies in this field, and it’s a joint responsibility. So, the womens themselves would also have to understand, we need to also, kind of like, understand our opportunities, our rights, what’s out there and what we need to do, as well. I mean, it’s also to help each other to – like, to help each other as well by better understanding what’s out there before we go and, kind of like, you know, advocate.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. Oh, already. So, I will, so, put, like – shall we ask, like – shall we go and, like, block, like three question, then you answer and then we can go back through the question? Oh, wow, can we start with Isabella and then, the woman just there and then the woman there?
Isabella Wilkinson
Thank you so much to our esteemed panel and to the audience for being here today. By way of introduction, I’m Bella, I work at Chatham House. I’m involved in our EDI Working Group. I also Co-Chair Women in International Security UK. A really, really fascinating discussion. Interesting and chilling, I think, to hear about the backlash against gender equity on a global level and from each of your individual vantage points. The rise of the far-right and how this is entangled, I guess, in a rising tide of concerns and rollbacks on rights and freedoms for folks.
I wanted to connect this to the, kind of, global rising tide of threats faced by the LGBTIQ+ community, and I’d be interested in your thoughts and perspectives on that entanglement and how it’s come up in your careers and your work currently.
Yasmine Dong
Okay. Woman in black.
Prashanie Dharmadasa
Thank you. Thank you very much, that was a very interesting discussion. I just wanted to pick up on a theme that I heard, which was around the socioeconomic piece. By the way, sorry, my name is Prashanie Dharmadasa from SORAA3. With this concept of pedigree versus potential and also with university fees increasingly getting more and more expensive, I’m quite concerned that we might be facing a talent drain because of the way our structures, our internal structures, you know, are governed when it comes to talent.
And Karen, you mentioned sponsorship and mentorship, which I absolutely believe in, but also, I’m interested to understand, what are the internal structural changes that genuinely need to happen that would allow a more equal playing field for, you know, women, as well as other, you know, protected characteristics? And then, on the topic of sponsorship, I wonder if there is an opportunity to have internal sponsors responsible for those structural changes, because unless that happens internally, it’s going to continue with the same barriers.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you, and the woman in green.
Hale Hanken
Oh, sorry. Thank you very much, a really interesting conversation. I’m Hale, I am part of the Chatham House Masterclass Programme, and I work as a Refugee Advisor to the Foreign Office. Very happy to be here. My question is regarding the recent development and the double standards we see towards women’s rights. So, basically, we see, like, the fancy agreements, the [LSE IDEA – 50:42], the Women Peace, Security Agenda and all of this stuff, and, like, the clear of the obligations was the protection of women. And we see what’s happened in Palestine, we see the double standards, that it’s not the case when it’s stec – is it we are second class people, or what is it? What is it?
Like, I’m from Syria, I recently – I’m a – I’m both a pra – a Researcher and a practitioner. So, women’s – women in the field, they lost their home and they lost their belief in this kind of system and this, kind of like, fancy international agreements. So, what are your take of that for your students, if you have any students? Also, on the academic level, I would like to hear what’s your take on that. Thank you.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. So…
Zizette Darkazally
Do you want to…?
Professor Karen Smith
Do we pick and choose?
Yasmine Dong
Yes, please.
Zizette Darkazally
Should I start? I’m going to pick the last question.
Yasmine Dong
Okay, cool, good.
Professor Karen Smith
Hmmm hmm.
Zizette Darkazally
Hale, I could not agree with you more and thank you so much for raising this. Look, application is not – of laws in general is not equal, which is sad. I mean, that’s the way it is, but I agree with you 100%, there needs to be more – like, I think women in occupation, under occupation, are overlooked in terms of research, in terms of projects, in terms of investments, and it is a – they are a victim of this whole geopolitical regression we live in. And you’re right, and there’s needs to be more work that’s being done on that, and I think it is our – when we talk about a network, it is part of our job to advocate for these disciplines to be also in terms of research.
I think I would also, kind of like, go back – go to something that I said earlier in terms of, like, policies, when you tick a box of a policy and of a project, because using, kind of like, the word ‘women’ and ‘woman rights’ and ‘empowerment’ without actually imp – without monitoring the implementation of it. And I think that’s the responsibility of the – of situations, as well, to be able to be monitoring and measuring progress of what’s happening. I worked a lot in the electoral sphere, in elections, and most of the projects that were aimed at women, it was always – and in the Middle East, in particular, in Palestine, in occupied Palestinian territory, in Egypt, in Syria, in Lebanon and in Libya.
And most of the programmes that were tailored at empowering women in this space were about awareness – raising awareness of women participation in elections as voters, not as candidates. And I thought there was always this gap of part of the empowerment is to actually train women and give them the space to also be community leaders, to be candidates. How – and that’s a different tailored approach and project than participation of women in general in – as voters. So, there is a need, I could not agree with you more. I’m very happy that you raised it, I’m very happy that everyone heard it, as well, and I promise you that it’s one of the things that I’m working on taking forward.
Professor Karen Smith
I mean, I can talk about the mentorship and sponsorship and how you can institutionalise that. I mean, we’ve found mentorship is extremely important, but often, the way that mentorship works in diplomacy is extremely informal, right? They don’t – they’re not formal mentoring schemes, which I mean, I work in a university where there’s a very formal mentoring scheme and it is expected that we are mentors and we’re giving – you know, and there’s all sorts of training material. So, it’s a bit of a shock to discover that there are institutions where this doesn’t happen. So, one of the recommendations is, in fact, that there should be formal mentoring schemes, because otherwise, the ment – those who are acting as mentors are essentially doing it for free and getting no credit, and it doesn’t count for career advancement. So, you have to integrate those things, I think, and it has – you know, for everyone in a foreign ministry.
But also, the in – the issue of sponsorship, then that is, sort of, you know, a personal, but we’ve discovered, for example, that in Global Affairs Canada there is this, kind of, programme to encourage sponsorship. So that, you know, you talk well about somebody not when they’re in the room, right? I mean, you’re effectively being their, kind of, their sponsor outside of the room. But the same goes for networking. Networking is – you know, alright, the old boys’ networks seem – whatever, but they – you – networking is time consuming and again, then, how do you institutionalise credit for running networks within institutions, within foreign ministries? And that again, you know, has to be part of the – we – do you meet during the day, or do you meet at child unfriendly hours in the evening? Do you meet in accessible places within the institution and that forth?
But those are all things that – those are changes that can be structural and that can happen within foreign ministries and that can then make a difference, but they have to be institutionalised.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. Patricia, do you want to take the question from – on the LGBTQ…
Professor Patricia Owens
Sure.
Yasmine Dong
…+?
Professor Patricia Owens
I will, I’ll take Bella’s question. Yes, I think this is a really, really excellent question. It’s really, really important that we keep in mind when we’re thinking about the resurgent far-right that – about who they’re going after first and then, who they’re going to then come after next. So, when Renée Good was, you know, assassinated by ICE goons in Minneapolis in January, it was immediately leaked that she had a wife by those who were seeking to defend the atta – the murder, as if her life was less worth – was worth less because she was queer. And – but interestingly, then, the, sort of, response to this, you know, is also then talking a lot about her – the fact that she was a mother of three, as if also that if she hadn’t had children that she would also be less. So, I think there’s interesting politics here.
But, you know, make no mistake, you know, in this country Farage does not support same-sex marriage and, you know, there’s already been a quite successful attack on trans rights and trans lives, and again, I th – you know, also in the US. And it would not be surprising if the Supreme Court does not have before it sooner or later a, sort of – another rul – a possible ruling against same-sex marriage in the US and in this country. So, you know, clearly authoritarianism, strong men, you know, there’s clear, deep misogyny in those movements. I mean, we have a rapist in The White House, who hates women, who hates disabled people, who hates anyone who doesn’t, sort of, fit into his, sort of, particular hegemonic masculinity.
And that requires certain kinds of othering, certain kinds of elevations of, again, certain kinds of women, blonde, trad wife type women, who are not in solidarity with other women. Who I’ve heard it – them described as, you know, wanting to be their ‘master’s favourite dog’. And that’s the sort of bargain that many women make in – under the rise of authoritarianism and far-right. And so, you know, women have to make choices about who – allying with even other women. We can’t always rely on other women to stand with other women, and so – but we all then have to stand with those who are most exposed and marginalised, immigrants, asylum seekers, trans people, and just the disabled, who are now also coming under attack, even by this Labour Government. Are they really disa – so disabled that they can’t go to work as they – you know, and these sorts of attacks.
So, it all – it’s all comes together – I’m, sort of, moving a little bit away from LGBTQI, but I’m just doing that to, sort of, say how they are all linked, and, you know, they will come for them first and then they will start moving towards other groups. We know this from the history of fascism.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. Naomi, do you want to pick on the social mobility…
Naomi Davey
Yeah.
Yasmine Dong
…and then the…?
Naomi Davey
Yeah. I think for obvious reasons, I’m going to steer clear of the politics, but I can talk a bit about the socioeconomic mobility piece. I mean, there are some really structured programmes that I think work really well in the Civil Service. So, there’s a very well-established now structured mentoring programme aimed at people from low socioeconomic backgrounds, that runs year after year, matching people with more senior mentors. There are new creative access points into the Civil Service. So, apprenticeships is now a brilliant thing. We have those in the Foreign Office, as well. So, you – I mean, you made the point about university becoming a difficult thing for people to go and get university degree. So, I think those – changing the access points, being more flexible about how people can come into the organisation, is really important.
And then structural changes in – and then there have been a lot in the Foreign Office in terms of embedding part-time working, presumptions that all jobs should be advertised for part-time workers and job shares, unless there’s a really good reason not to. Those sort of things I think make a real difference, a real practice difference, to enable women to have fulfilling careers in a foreign ministry. And we have to be really vigilant, and I’m really vigilant at work, if I spot some – a job that isn’t advertised as available for part-time working, I’ll ask why. So, I think it’s – you know, there is just – we just need to be vigilant, but I think there is – there are some good examples of where structural changes have happened and are happening.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you. I’m conscious of the time, so I’m going to take one question from the audience online and then two question in the room. So, the question online is from Nargis Khan. He, or she, the person, ask, “If women representation is a good government issue, not just an equity one, how do we shift it from be driven by women alone to something institution and ally actively sustain?” And I will take the two last question, because conscious of the time, from the room. So, can I get the person there in grey?
Member
There’s two of them there, so…
Yasmine Dong
If you…
Naomi Davey
There’s two in grey.
Yasmine Dong
Ah, there’s two in grey. And another, the person with, like, the burgundy shirt. Yeah, you, just in front.
Casey
Hello, I’m…
Yasmine Dong
Oh, okay, hi.
Casey
…joining in, right, [inaudible – 60:52].
Yasmine Dong
Pfft.
Casey
Okay.
Yasmine Dong
Up to you.
Professor Karen Smith
Oh.
Casey
Hi, my name’s Casey and…
Professor Karen Smith
Oh.
Dr Alice Edward
Sorry.
Yasmine Dong
I think we will…
Dr Alice Edward
She probably is…
Yasmine Dong
…start…
Dr Alice Edward
Would you like to go first?
Yasmine Dong
…with the woman in grey, and then we come to you.
Casey
No, I’ll…
Dr Alice Edward
Sorry, sorry, no, go ahead.
Casey
Oh, okay, well, I’m – apologies, I did not see you behind me. Hi, my name’s Casey. I’m a US Diplomat on sabbatical. So, I want to follow-up from – actually, it’s a good – from what the online question was, and we talked a lot about structural changes in the workplace, but we didn’t talk about cultural changes. So, how can we, you know, if you have boys, if you’re a mother or if you’re an aunt or a grandmother, or have young kids in your life, make sure this next generation is raised in a way that we’re not having to constantly fight this? And of course, you know – and for the current generation of men we’re dealing with, whether they’re younger or old, how can we make sure they understand these issues and support us in advancing them?
Yasmine Dong
Thank you, and last question.
Dr Alice Edward
Good afternoon. Thanks very much for this very interesting discussion. My name’s Alice Edwards. I’m the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture. The elephant in the room seems to me, talking about international relations, is we’re coming up to the election of the next UN Secretary-General, of which the last round around eight/ten years ago, was intended to be for a woman candidate. António Guterres ran a very elaborate campaign and very detailed campaign and knocked out many competent and well qualified women. We’re now coming up, and I wanted to hear from…
Yasmine Dong
Sorry, I’m conscious of the time, so if you can just…
Dr Alice Edward
Yes, from the panel about we currently have very few candidates. It’s meant to be Latin America’s turn. Just wondering about what we can do to promote a woman into this position at a time when perhaps it is a glass edge.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you.
Professor Karen Smith
Or glass cliff.
Yasmine Dong
And can I just allow one last question, because we didn’t have a question from a man. So, I will allow the question from the man in blue. A very short question, please.
Member
I’ll make it quick.
Yasmine Dong
Yes.
Member
And 30 years ago, my first job was for the US Ambassador to the UN Commission on Human Rights, who was the first woman to run for Vice President, Geraldine Ferraro. And I was happy to get her coffee and ever since, she changed my life. So…
Zizette Darkazally
Oh.
Member
…she didn’t exclude me at the time. And one of the things that I wanted to say is that it’s about finding people who will support each other always, and my career has been in international development, international law, and I’ve just moved to London and I’m happy to mentor and help anybody…
Yasmine Dong
Thank you.
Member
…who’s here. And my question, what do you want to tell men to help you?
Yasmine Dong
Okay, great. Okay, I’ll actually…
Zizette Darkazally
Can I tackle the UN question?
Yasmine Dong
Please do.
Zizette Darkazally
I mean, all questions are really interested, I’ve got lots to say about them, but I will talk to – about the UN. I just read an article in Blue Pass [means PassBlue] by Jennifer Parlamis, and I’m – excuse me if Jennifer is listening to this podcast and I’ve mispronounced her name, and she makes a very interesting argument. She talks – ‘cause I think the candidate deadline is tomorrow for – it’s the 1st of April for the candidates for the next UN General. I mean, it is about time, it’s been 80 years and I think nine male Chiefs of UN Secretary-Generals, but she makes an interesting argument. She says that “When organisations falter, they appoint a woman.”
Yasmine Dong
Hmmm hmm.
Zizette Darkazally
Think crisis, think woman, think leadership, think man.
Professor Karen Smith
Yeah.
Zizette Darkazally
And the reason – and that’s why we need to, kind of, separate the thinking between it is time to have a woman as, like – you know, championing the UN – the United Nations, or it’s because the UN is in a very, very, very wea…
Professor Patricia Owens
Yeah.
Zizette Darkazally
…crisis at the moment, that maybe they need a woman. Because if you put a woman there, she will…
Professor Patricia Owens
Find…
Zizette Darkazally
That will send a positive message to – you know, that they probably suggest renewal, suggest UN Charter echoing. But then the danger becomes is, because she’s inheriting an institution in crisis, if it fail – if she fails, it will be individualised. It’s her fault, it’s not the structure.
And I think part of the working into – but again, it’s, like, the right thing to have a woman, because women are capable of running this organisation, but we have to be aware of the pitfalls and the risks in this argument. And I think as a network, as – in terms of advocacy, I think we have to be aware of this risk and also, you know, say it out loud. Say that she is inheriting – if it’s a she, she is inheriting a really structural cri – in crisis, structure in crisis, that she would need the support, as a male would’ve, also, kind of like, in her place, would’ve done the same. So, we need to be aware of that pitfall. Thank you.
Professor Karen Smith
Absolutely. Known as the ‘glass cliff’.
Zizette Darkazally
The glass cliff, exactly.
Professor Karen Smith
Yeah.
Zizette Darkazally
Shattering the ceiling…
Professor Karen Smith
Ex…
Zizette Darkazally
…being pushed off…
Professor Karen Smith
But – yeah, exactly.
Zizette Darkazally
…the glass cliff.
Professor Karen Smith
I was just going to say something on cultural changes. I mean, what we – there’s – there was – there has been a couple of studies done at the Japanese Foreign Ministry and they did make lots of structural changes in terms of trying to ensure work-life balance. None of it matters if there’s a culture of presenteeism. That wipes it all out. You know, you’re supposed to stay in the office for what, 18 hours a day, so all of the structural changes mean nothing if there’s not cultural change to go along with it.
And the responsibility for cultural change then does – is of leaders, right, and that is, “I am leaving right now to go pick up my kids and I am going to have dinner with my kids at home, and I’m going to put that on Instagram,” maybe, or whatever, right? I know somebody did try to find on Instagram any Diplomat that was a woman that was proud of the family and saying how committed she was and it – there’s not a lot…
Yasmine Dong
Yeah.
Professor Karen Smith
…right? And so, then, it’s the leadership, “I am going to do this, and you too should be leaving,” you know, “and I’m not going to call you on a Sunday unless it’s an absolute emergency.” So, the cultural change does stop at the top. So, structural change without the cultural change doesn’t go very far.
Yasmine Dong
Okay.
Professor Patricia Owens
I mean, yes, just, sort of, to Casey’s question about how can we raise the next generation so that we’re not constantly fighting this? I mean, like, we will be constantly fighting this. When I was young, and I took feminism for granted and all my friends were fem – we – you know, our mothers weren’t that feminist. We were feminist, “This is going to change everything. We are going to raise sons and daughters to be feminist,” and it, sort of, didn’t happen. It didn’t work out that way, despite the best efforts of many people to, sort of, change how they raise their boys and girls, and so, I think we will always be doing that.
And I would push – turn the question back to Nargis Khan and the gentleman over there, which was that, you know – how are we going to shift it from being just women who are doing this work and the allies, or what do you want us to tell the men to help you? You tell the men, you tell the men.
Member
Yeah.
Yasmine Dong
Hmmm hmm.
Professor Patricia Owens
Carry on, thank you. I mean, you know, I think that we, you know, we can’t just keep – we cannot expect the minoritised or the group that is benefitting directly from the attempted change to be the one who’s pushing that, because it just – it will always just be read then as special pleading. It just – there has to be solidarity, and we see models of that all around us, right? We do see and we do know how to engage in community organising and solidarity and political change. We’ve been – we’ve just returned to the Renée Good example. We have exemplary examples of this right now going on in the US, happening here as well.
So, there are opportunities for hope and for change, but I – they – I would push that back and do not ask women to tell – explain to men how they can help. You know, it’s – you men have to work that out amongst yourselves and do better, I think, and thank you for the work that you are doing. I don’t mean to be critical of you as an individual.
Yasmine Dong
And come to your side, but Naomi last.
Naomi Davey
Well, I was just going to say…
Yasmine Dong
…on cultural…
Naomi Davey
…as an add-on to what you were saying, Karen, about being – about role modelling and, you know, being visible and proud of going – leaving work early to go and pick up your kids. I mean, it’s really powerful when male leaders do that and not just women leaders. So, when it’s the male senior lead in an organisation who’s saying, “I’m not going to come in for that meeting tomorrow because it’s on my non-working day,” or “it’s,” you know, “because I’m taking the kids to school,” then it – then I think that really helps shift the dial.
Yasmine Dong
Thank you.
Zizette Darkazally
I’m going to leave with one last thing, just about the…
Yasmine Dong
Okay.
Zizette Darkazally
…man, the man thing. I will just say a quote that was said by a friend of mine, saying, “Imagine what women could achieve if they too had a wife at home.”
Yasmine Dong
Thank you and [applause], please, round of applause for the panel. Thank you very much [applause].
Zizette Darkazally
I asked the [applause]…
