The Rt Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Good afternoon, just. Welcome to Chatham House, everybody. Minister, welcome. It’s my pleasure to be chairing this, what I hope to be a rather intriguing and interesting event. The title is China’s Modernization and the Relationship with the West, and it is a privilege for Chatham House to be welcoming Minister Liu Jianchao to share his thoughts with us for 20 minutes on that topic, and then I will quiz you. And then I will turn it over to the audience, yourselves here live, and a significant number of people online, to explore probably only a few of the endless topics that are on the edge of everybody’s mind.
To set the scene for myself, in my own excitements and anticipation for today, as an Economist by training, as most people watching or sitting here know, the marvel of the enormous rise of the Chinese economy and its influence on the world, going back to your first days here in London in the mid-80s, I’m sure that’s not just a coincidence, is truly quite something. But of course, as no doubt will become part of the discussions, in the past few years, particularly since the unfortunate developments with COVID, there are some doubts about China’s ability to sustain the momentum to that growth. And, of course, some pretty big questions about how China is interacting with the rest of the world and engaging.
And, indeed, I have to say, because, of course, Ch – on the one hand, Chatham House being what it is, beautifully, this amazing think tank for global affairs, but also with its history, we ourselves have a little bit of controversy in hosting you here today because of some of those topical issues, and if – I warn you in advance, I am going to bring some of them up later. And so, with that in mind, let me turn it over to you, Minister, and thank you very much for joining us. Let me just say, and I’ll repeat it for when – as you think about questions, we are on the record. The Chatham House Rule therefore will not really apply because it’s on the record, but I warn you, all in advance, questions, not your own philosophical statements of how you want life to be, otherwise your question might get adjusted or ignored, but we’ll come back to that later. Minister, over to you [applause].
Mr Liu Jianchao
Thank you. Yeah, I certainly pledge to obey – to observe the Chatham House rules, but it’s a little bit very transparent in here, you know. For a Diplomat when you speak you try to stand upright in the upper body, but there’s trembling in your lower part of the body. And, yes, very nice to see you, ladies and gentlemen, dear Lord O’Neill, and thank you very much for the warning. But I wish to begin by thanking the Chatham House for the invitation, and Lord O’Neill for your warm words.
I spent some time in London in the middle 1990s. I was in the – working with the Embassy, so I knew the Chatham House pretty well. It is a well – world-renowned think tank and opinion leader, so, with a century-long history. It is the founding head of many strategic thinking and policy ideas, so every time I read your research papers, I do feel enlightened.
As the birthplace of invention of Industrial Revolution, the United Kingdom was the birthplace – sorry, the United Kingdom was the place China first turned to when it opened its eyes to the world. Well, not only on – well, when – after the People’s Republic of China was founded, but it’s done – so, I experience, experience for the Chinese in the late 19th Century when we sent Diplomats and Envoys to our delegation in the same place that – where the Embassy is today, and personally, it was where I started to know about the West.
So, 37 years ago, in 1986, the same year when I joined the Foreign Service, I came to this country as a student. That was the first time I ever set my feet on a foreign land. It was quite an eye-opening experience, and I was overwhelmed by the modernity and the national and cultural heritage. So – but believe it or not, what is more amazing is that after I spent a year in UK and when I returned home in Beijing, I got lost in the streets in Beijing.
Earth-shattering changes took place during my short one-year absence from China, as back then, China was on the ri – on track to take off, thanks to the opening up and reform policy. 40 years on, so much has changed in China and around the world. Humanity is faced with more challenges than ever, that’s why it’s all the more important for us to talk and listen to each other for greater understanding and stronger co-operation.
As many of you haven’t had a chance to go back to China for some time due to the COVID, there must have been a lot of questions in your mind about China. For instance, what is going on in China at the moment, what does Chinese modernization mean for the world? What kind of relationship does China hope to build with the West and the rest of the world? I am happy to try my best to share my views.
I’ll begin with what we are doing at home. As you may know, the 20th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, last October, elected the new central leadership of the party, and with Xi Jinping at its core, and drew a blueprint for the next five years and beyond, to advance the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation through a Chinese path to modernization.
I’d like to use four catchwords to summarise our work priorities at home. The first is highly – ‘high quality development’. High quality development is our number one task, to build China into a modern socialist country. Though we have put an end to extreme poverty and realised the dream of a well-off society, China is still a developing country. Imbalances and inadequacies in development remain a prominent problem. In 2022, China’s per capita GDP was about US$12,700, less than one third of that of the UK. That is why the Communist Party of China regards development as its top priority in governing and rejuvenating China.
Going forward, we’ll apply the new development philosophy that pursues innovative, co-ordinated, green, open and inclusive growth, so as to achieve high quality development and create a better life for our people. Statistics from January to May this year show a momentum of steady recovery of investment, consumption, import and export, giving us the confidence to achieve the growth target of about 5% in the beginning – which we set in the beginning of this year.
The second word is ‘reform and opening up’. This year marks the 45th anniversary of China’s reform and opening up policy, a policy that has transformed China tremendously. We’ll remain committed to that policy, no matter how the external situation could possibly evolve. We’ll take even greater strides and deepen reform at all fronts, and promote high standard opening up. Reforms will be pressed ahead to build a socialist market economy where the market plays the decipher – decisive role in the resource allocation, and the government better plays its role.
We’ll unswervingly deepen SOE reforms and support the growth of private sector by encouraging entrepreneurship and ensure fair competition. We’ll open wider the service sector, cut shorter the negative list of – for foreign investment, protect the rights and interests of foreign investors, and create a market-oriented, law-based business environment that meets the international standard. We welcome more British investment, and stand ready to work with the United Kingdom to keep the global industrial supply chains stable and smooth.
The third catch word is the ‘rule of law’. The rule of law and good governance are something all people hope to enjoy. Since the 18th Communist Party National Congress in 2012, progress has been made in advancing socialism for democracy, and the rule of law. According to the Social Attitude Survey released by the China National Statistics Bureau, for most Chinese citizens, when one or one’s family encounters injustice, their first choice to undo it is through legal means. It shows a marked increase in people’s confidence in our legal system.
Moving forward, we’ll keep the path of socialist political advancement with an emphasis on the whole process people’s democracy. We’ll also endeavour to improve the Chinese now socialist legal system with the Constitution at its core, advance law-based government administration, ensure strict and impartial administration of justice, and build a law-based society. Special attention will be given to protect human rights, IPR, and the legitimate advice and interests of entrepreneurs. Britain has a long tradition of the rule of law, and on the journey ahead, we hope to set up exchanges and mutual learning with you.
The fourth word is ‘clean government’. For many years, corruption was rampant in China. The CPC is keenly aware of its harm, that is why the Communist Party of China was – has launched unprecedented anti-corruption campaign, as an important step to ensure full and rigorous self-governance. Thanks to such efforts, China’s ranking in the 2022 Corruption Perception Index of Transpar – International Transparent jumped upward by 35th place compared to 2014.
The fight was tough, so my feeling’s that as long as the breeding grounds and conditions for corruption exist, we must never rest, not even for a minute, in our fight against corruption. We’ll continue to focus on both the symptoms and the root causes, and stick to the holistic approach to ensure that officials do not have the addicus – audacity, opportunity and desire to become corrupt. We hope to compare notes and strengthen international co-operation on corruption with our British colleagues and beyond.
Ladies and gentlemen, China, while advancing its modernization drive at home, will remain committed to world peace and common development, and strive to build a human community with a shared future. By pursuing this Chinese modernization that covers a huge population, we’ll also contribute to common development of the world. Achieving modernization for China, a country with more than 1. billion peo – population, has profound global significance in itself.
General Secretary Xi Jinping has put forth the Global Development Initiative, highlighting development as a priority and stressing the need to build a united, equal, balanced and inclusive global development partnership, implement the UN 2030 agenda for sustainable development at a faster pace, and achieve stronger, greener and healthier global development that leaves no country or individual behind. With this in mind, we’ll call on all countries to keep the WTO, APEC and other multilateral institutions function well, and support co-operation mechanism, such as the BRICS, in playing a bigger role.
China has all along played an active role in international co-operation on poverty innovation, let’s focus on the underdeveloped countries and impoverished people and ensure that the development results are shared by all peoples in a fairer manner. By pursuing Chinese modernization that emphasises material and cultural, ethical advancement, we will also contribute to building an open and inclusive world. Modernization is not only about material abundance, but also about cultural, ethical enrichment.
In pursuing modernization, we draw upon the merits of all civilisations, advocate cultural inheritance and innovation, and the respect for the diversity of civilisations. General Secretary Xi Jinping has put forward the Global Civilisation Initiative, highlighting the need for tolerance, co-existence, exchanges, mutual learning, among civilisations. We’re ready to work with the rest of the world to promote international people-to-people exchanges and build a global network for inter-civilisation dialogue, to open up a new prospect where cultures and – are integrated and people are connected through exchanges.
Chinese modernization stresses harmony between man and nature. China will con – promote concerted efforts to cut carbon emissions, reduce pollution, expand green development, and pursue economic growth. China supports developing countries in their pursuit of energy transition, green development, and low-carbon growth. We’re ready to work with the rest of the world to build a community of all life on Earth that benefits future generations. By pursuing Chinese modernization of peaceful development, we will also contribute to building a world of lasting peace. To modernize China, we need a peaceful and stable external and internal environment.
While a modernized China will, in turn, contribute to world peace and stability, Xi Jinping has put forth the Global Security Initiative, underlying the need to pursue common, comprehensive, co-operative and sustainable security, respect the sovereignty and territorial credi – integrity of all countries, take their legitimate security concerns seriously, and resolve differences and disputes in a peaceful manner, through dialogue and consultation. China has played a constructive role in the political settlement of the Ukraine crisis, and facilitated the rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which has inspired greater reconciliation in the region.
China is the only country in the world that has committed itself to peaceful development of – in the Constitution, and the only country, among the five nuclear weapon states, to pledge ‘No First Use’ of nuclear weapons. We hope to work with the rest of the world to a peaceful settlement of disputes through consultation and dialogue and let the sunshine of peace shine on the Earth at an early date. What I want to bring your attention to is that the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative, and the Global Civilisation Initiative really constitute the key pillars of the mission to build a humanity – a human community with a shared future. They’re all open to the United Kingdom and we hope to see your support.
Ladies and gentlemen, I talk about China’s strategic arrangement to advance Chinese modernization, and what it seems to the West and the world, but some friends may still wonder what kind of relationship China wants to build with the rest of the world. What the common ground is between China and the United Kingdom, so I will try to share my observations.
Question number one: will China become more inward looking as it talks more about self-reliance? Indeed, China has accelerated efforts to foster a new development pattern that is focused on the domestic economy and features positive interplay between domestic and international economic flows. But let me be clear, for domestic circulation to function well, it needs stronger international co-operation, more foreign trade, and better use of foreign dives – direct investment. As champions for free trade, it’s shared responsibility for China and the UK to reject unilateralism, protectionism, decoupling, cutting supply chains, and building small yards with high fences. We need to embrace openness, inclusiveness, and win-win co-operation to keep world economy stable and prosperous.
Question number two: will China ignore development as it talks more about security? Indeed, China has highlighted the importance of security. Just as all other countries do, we believe high quality development can only be achieved in a highly secure environment. But what we pursue is a balance between security and development, and we’ll never ignore the issue of development, as Deng Xiaoping pointed out many years ago, that development is the key solution to all the problems that China is faced with.
Because we believe that development holds the key to solve all the problems in China, so in the report to the 20th CPC National Congress, the word ‘development’ was mentioned 239 times. The CPC will continue to stay focused on growing economy and pursue development. As both China and the UK are committed to economic stability and sustainable development and our industrial structures are highly complementary, it’s a shared responsibility for us to prevent and reject the practice of sel – overstretching the concept of national security, or using economic and trade issues as a tool or a weapon for political manipulation. We need to strengthen pragmatic co-operation to drive our common development for the benefits of our two peoples.
Question number three: will China refuse to assume more international responsibility as it talks more about its own interests? Indeed, we are steadfast in defending our core national interests and dignity and taking resolute measures against the erroneous act that burdens China’s sovereignty, and – or interferes with China’s internal affairs, but at the same time we are a party – a political party with a global vision. We have always been a builder of world peace, a contributor to global development, and a defender of international order.
As countries with global influence and members of the United Nation’s Security Council, both China and the UK show the responsibility for the international system and global affairs. So it is a shared responsibility for us to say no to a new Cold War, group politics and bloc confrontation. We need to strengthen communication and co-ordination on international issues and make active contributions to addressing global issues, such as climate change and biodiversity to realise lasting peace, universal security, and common prosperity.
Ladies and gentlemen, during the 11th China-UK Leadership Forum yesterday, we spent 12 hours together, with our British colleagues, for dialogue and exchanges. It is natural that differences are still there, yet, through the dialogue our common understanding has been expanded. We are both of the view that a sound China-UK relationship serves the interests of our peoples and the world, and that we should seek common ground by observing the differences for the purpose of knowing and understanding each other better. We both hope that China and the UK engage in a win-win co-operation to actualise common development, and that we demonstrate the sense of responsibility to meet global challenges.
I remember the mission of Chatham House is to help governments and societies build a sustainable, secure, prosperous and just world, showing its broad global vision through space, it’s based in the – though it’s based in the UK, to build a better world is our shared goal. The Communist Party of China always welcomes genuine suggestions on our future development, on Chinese modernization, on its relationship with the rest of the world. So I thank you very much for giving me such an opportunity to talk and interact, so – and thank you very much for your attention. Thank you [applause]. Thank you [applause].
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Thank you. Minister, thank you very much, I shall grill you shortly, or – but let me just – as I said, I’ll guide you guys to be ready in about 15 minutes. So, if you are sitting here in the room and you would like to ask a question, please stay seated and raise your hand, and you will be called on and a mic will be provided. Please identify yourself, and as I said already, make sure it is a question and not some philosophical statement of your life. And for our colleagues online, you must submit questions using the Q&A box at the bottom of your Zoom feed, the chat and raise hand functions are disabled. And I will see your questions, if everything’s working well with technology, right in front of me here.
So, with that in mind, let me start off. First of all, thank you so much for speaking in English, it is a sign of your staggering international experience that you managed to do that so easily and within 20 minutes, so thank you very much for that. So, let me – I’ve set myself up for being tough, so, it’s partly because, given I have BRICS stamped on my forehead, most people think I would never ever ask a Chinese person a tough question.
So, in the general context of the things that we don’t like, we in the West, it was very interesting in your – towards your closing comments, you mentioned about how strongly, and I think the right words, you would defend your – any influence on your internal affairs, I think it was. In some ways, it seems to me at times part of China’s response to things that are said here in the UK, and to some degree, if not many degrees also from elsewhere, particularly in the US, is because you believe that they are internal affairs that we should have no view on. Is that a correct assessment, and would you like to expand on whether that be the Uyghurs, broader human rights, which I’ll come back to, obviously with this country, Hong Kong issues, etc., etc.?
Mr Liu Jianchao
Thank you very much for the question. I think that the – we have a number of views to discuss, issues that we consider to be domestic affairs, with other countries, on the basis of equality and with respect. Because, you know, I think that the – we have had many, many rounds of human rights consultations with the United Kingdom and you – other Western partners. So, it’s not a taboo in our foreign policy, but the only thing is that when we do such exchange of ideas and interactions on these ‘sensitive issues’, we do want to do it on the basis of equality and mutual benef – and mutual respect. Because some – very often, when we hear comments from these countries that have shown some, kind of, interest in China’s human rights issue, they do it as a lecturer. They do it – which is not based on the principle of mutual respect. So, we don’t really want to listen to these lectures, but we do want to listen to the views and comments, on the basis of mutual respect. Now, that is very important.
Number two: we do regard some issues as the internal issues of China, but they don’t really stop us from having, as I said, interactions and – so I think this is also a perfect place for me to explain the – shortly, well, very concisely, the issues that you mentioned, for example, Hong Kong issue and the – what you call the Uyghur issue. Actually, the Hong Kong issue became noted by the United Kingdom, was actually in the year of 2019. In the year 2019, everybody in here knows about what happened that year. We were seeing an unethical society. We didn’t see any law and order in Hong Kong, we see – we saw only riot, violence, looting, arsoning, killing, well, brutal acts. So that’s something that is never acceptable to the people of Hong Kong or the people of the entire China. I just imagine what could happen in – here in this country when you encounter such very bad and brutal riots.
So, we have to resume law and order in Hong Kong, and that serves in the interests not only of the Chinese people, the Hong Kong people, but the British people in Hong Kong as well. You have such a big number of companies, banks, and you also have a lot of British nationals who are working or studying there. So we want to resume law and order, and that does not mean that we are moving away from the formula of one country, two systems, but rather we are adhering to such a principle, and we are not moving away from the notion of Hong Kong people governing Hong Kong. So, I think there’s some misunderstanding, and maybe there’s some things that you don’t really like to see. But you have to be realistic and you have to be reasonable, and giving us a – you know, what you have in mind, you know, when we want to restore law and order, which is as much for any civilisation and any state or any country.
With the issue of Xinjiang, and I don’t think that it should be – you know, pinpoint the Uyghur issue, it’s not a Uyghur issue. We have 56 ethnic groups in China, and in Xinjiang we have maybe 15 eth – well, eth – minority ethnic groups. Uyghurs is one of them, and we have the Tajiks, the Kyrgyz, and also Russians and many, many others. So the core of the Xinjiang issue should not be put into the context of human rights. It should be put into the context of fighting against terrorism. The United Kingdom is a very bad victim of terrorism, and terrorists are common, dangerous and brutal enemies. The same thing with China.
The same thing with that part of China in Xinjiang, because we have pathways between Xinjiang and some Central Asian countries. And back in 1980s, or let me see, back in 1990s, we got intelligence that such a large number of people from Xinjiang fled to Central Asia and got trained by the Al-Qaeda, or by the Taliban, we knew that, but right after the September 11th incident that became more rampant. More and more people came back and, you know, started to kill. So, we lost so many lives, both Uyghurs and people of other ethnic groups, so that must be stopped. So, we have to have a very strong hand on these terrorists, but not on the Uyghurs.
So, it’s – this is a kind of strategy that we have to protect our people in Xinjiang. So, that’s why I said that it should not be in – put into the context of human rights. It’s really a matter of fighting against terrorism, because fighting against terrorism serves as the common task and it’s part of the international effort, fighting against terrorism. Thank you.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Let me tell you, I’m already mindful of the clock, it’s incredible how quickly time moves. I want to ask three different things, if possible, but I’ve got to do it in five minutes. So, coincidentally, you arrive here a day after Tony Blinken was in Beijing. Any flavour of how you feel, or China feels, about the visit? Was it helpful, or was it a step backwards?
Mr Liu Jianchao
Oh, that is the easiest part of your question maybe because I was – I didn’t really read the report and I was not involved in the meetings between Blinken and other Chinese leadership. But anyway, I read in the news, and I knew the pathway for such interaction between the Chinese and the Diplomats and the American Chief Diplomat. You know that the – there were some consensus between President Xi Jinping and President Biden in the Bali island – in Bali last year. And since things should have been expected to move, in accordance with the consensus reached between the Presidents but, you know, this went another way and there was some very bad moves on the US side, with regard to the Taiwan issue. We saw, you know, the high-level visit by Speaker…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Pelosi?
Mr Liu Jianchao
…Nancy Pelosi, which really result in the tension across the Taiwan Strait, and then we have seen the balloon thing, which really poisoned the atmosphere for high-level interactions. But all-in-all I think that these are the happenings, but these happenings are based on US intention and strategy against China, which is based on the wrong calculation on China. So, I think that the starting point of the US policy against China would be what they – in their words, would be containment, the kind of pressurising, and the competition. Well, sometimes they mention the word ‘adversarial’ nature,. So, for that I think that there need to be more interactions between the Chinese Diplomats and the American Diplomats, and I think that Blinken’s visit to China was one of them.
So, I do believe that these kind of ra – interactions is useful, and I think it’s also, as explained in the press release, that it’s constructive, so I do believe that. The talks lasted – between the Foreign Ministers lasted about eight hours, and also, he had a chance to meet the President Xi, and I could only tell you so much from the news because…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Sure. Let me just ask one of my other two, and I’m hoping that the other one might come up, but if not, I’ll find a way. So, again, for me personally, but I think it has great interest more broadly, one reads a lot about a possible expansion of the BRICS Group. You go on a what – from a Chinese perspective, what is the purpose behind that, if it’s – if what we read is true?
Mr Liu Jianchao
Thank you, I’m really honoured to see you, who is regarded as the father of the BRICS, and you transform the world. You are not that old.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Well, I can’t rub it off.
Mr Liu Jianchao
But anyway, I think this – well, it’s a wonderful imagination of international relations and you put all these major economies of developing or fast-moving economies together. So I think that’s the right move, and I think the – it’s well received by the BRICS countries, and we already had an enlargement, which was the Sou – with the South Africa. You didn’t include South Africa.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Yeah. No, they never asked me that.
Mr Liu Jianchao
So, what do you think? Maybe I give him an answer later on. But the – China basically favours for – favours an expansion of the BRICS, and I don’t know what you’re going to call it in the future. You can call it BRICS+ or something, we don’t – because we don’t really want to lose the word ‘BRIC’ or ‘BRICS’. But anyway, the reason why we favour an expansion is that we do see more emerging economies than the five themselves. So, I think there should be a larger – a bigger say by the emerging economies in the national governance of the economy. And, well, when you see the G20, you see basically ten developed countries and ten developing countries or major emerging economies. So, I think that it’s only natural that we can see an expansion of the BRICS, so the international economic governance need these countries.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay, I’m going to go – I’m going to forget my others for now, there’s a – I’m going to do slightly the opposite of what I planned, just to be clear that you’re not being punished for being online. One of the online ones, which doesn’t have a name attached to it, but it’s a very intriguing question and it’s slightly mischievous, but I like mischievousness.
Mr Liu Jianchao
I hope I can get it now.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
“Please give us a sense of when you say – or when we think of ‘we’ in the West,” here’s the naughty bit, “from a Chinese perspective, which are the best nations within the West, and are there subgroups, and are we a bad guy or a good guy?”
Mr Liu Jianchao
Okay. I don’t really see any best, but I can – do see – I do see better policies on certain issues from the Western countries, and not only the West, but global countries. So, I can only judge on the policies of each country. For example, Britain is a champion of openness, open world trade, globalisation, and multilateralism. So, when you say that – well, I will say that Britain is good, in terms of such policies, with regard to global governance, and – but when you talk about some other countries, I don’t really want to meet them because we – well I’m here in Britain, so I cannot exac…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
The media here would love you to say the countries, but I get that.
Mr Liu Jianchao
I can maybe cite the United Kingdom, but, you know, all countries have right and wrong policies, so you can’t really say that it’s the best, it’s a better one, or…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Damn. I tried. Okay, audience here, I see a gentleman at the front, please say who you are, and be as brief as possible with your question.
Dominic Dudley
Okay, Dominic Dudley, I’m a Freelance Journalist. I want to ask you about China’s role in the Middle East. You’ve obviously – you mentioned the Saudi-Iran rapprochement, does that, sort of, set the scene for other similar engagements? Might you try – I know – I think China’s talked about trying to deal with the Israel-Palestine issue, are there other conflicts, which you might try to get involved in? And…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Yeah, get that one? Let’s just hold that for a sec. Any – oh my God, I’m sorry.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Oh, sorry, okay.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Just one sec. Any other questions of that, sort of, flavour? Lady at the back.
Ameya Kilara
Thank you, Minister. My question was about…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Where are you from?
Ameya Kilara
Ameya Kilara from Inter Mediate. I work with Jonathan Powell as Senior Projects Director. So, my question was about the Global Security Initiative again and China’s role in mediation and dialogue, and I wanted to ask you just two related questions. The first was…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Only one. There’s at least 20 hands up, one question.
Ameya Kilara
Yeah. So, sort of, how does China distinguish its approach to mediation and dialogue from the Western approach to this – to similar issues, including on conflicts like Ukraine, and how could we better help China and the West co-operate on mediation issues?
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay, thank you. Let’s take those two for now, and I’ll – you guys are tough.
Mr Liu Jianchao
We do want to see more rapprochement in the Middle East and China certainly wishes to play a role. And we were proud that we could bring Iran and Saudi Arabia together, so they normalised their relations with each other in Beijing. And I hope that is very good momentum and we could really see a trend of rapprochement and the peace-making among the Middle East countries, not only between Israel and some other Arab countries, but also between and among the Arab countries themselves. But of course, we could not deny the fact that the Palestinian issue is still the very difficult and tough issue to settle, and China’s position on that issue remain unchanged.
So, we support the Palestinians, but we also see all countries have the right to exist on that land, and we hope to see international efforts that can push for peace between Israel and Palestine, and China will certainly be part of the effort. And with regard to the Security Initiative, yes, China is always on the side of peace, and that is not a jargon, but actually, it’s what China has been working on. And we are very sad to see such a major conflict that is going on in Europe, in your – in a place where it’s supposed to be peaceful, and so there are two sides of China’s position on this.
Number one: that we certainly adhere to the principles of respect to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of another country. So we don’t really want to see any kind of conflict, any kind of war, or any kind of military actions against a sovereign country.
On the second, I think that we should observe the comprehensive security of all nations concerned, because we don’t really want to see any country seeking extreme security at the sacrifice of another country that is really seeing threat to that country. So, I know that this is not – the Ukraine issue is very complicated, but all-in-all, China stands for peace and we try to bring about, yeah.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
So, you mention Ukraine, one of the next, or one of the many questions online, is about Ukraine. From Callum Wilson, I shall ask it slightly differently than it’s written here, but I’ll get to the gist of it. It’s also quite frank and blunt, do you – well, actually, I’ll add my slight twist to it as well. Do you think it’s caused any damage to China’s international credibility in terms of China’s stance on the invasion of Ukraine, or not?
Mr Liu Jianchao
Well, it really depends on which country. Well, as far as the European countries, and then, I do understand your feelings and emotions towards the Ukraine crisis, one can understand that, because we do see the casualty, we do see people being killed on the battlefield, and it’s something that we never like to see. But we have to be sophisticated and realistic about the issue because we do – personally, as a Diplomat, I feel sad to see that this crisis failed to be prevented in the first place. And I see – I’ve been reading different views on the relations between NATO and Russia, which some people believe could be the cause of this crisis. I’m not saying that I’m commenting on it, but I do see conflicting views on this, even among the Westerners. Number one.
Number two: China is – as I said, China is on the side of peace. We’ll try to do our bit in bringing about a ceasefire and a kind of – bring the two countries to the negotiation table, which seems to be very difficult at the moment, so we have to realistic. But what – how we’re going to be realistic, that we should try all our best to stop the possible escalation of the crisis, because we believe it could result in very dangerous scenario. So, you see what I mean? So we don’t want to see escalation.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay, let me come back to the – oh my goodness me. There’s somebody right at the back, gentleman with glasses and a white shirt on.
James King
Thank you very much. James King from the Financial Times, thank…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Oh, sorry, James.
James King
Yeah, thank you very much, Minister Liu. My question is on the Global Development Initiative. There is a group at the United Nations called the ‘Friends of the Global Development Initiative’, could you say how many countries are in that, and are any G7 members already among the Friends of the GDI? Or is the GDI really China’s attempt to further embrace the Global South? Thank you.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
I’ll take that one on its own actually.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Yes.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Please.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Hi, James, so nice to see you after so many years, but – yes, and thank you very much for following the Global Development Initiative, and thank you very much for mentioning the Friends club of this initiative. We do see a lot of developing countries who are happy to join this club, but we don’t really see too many G7 members. But I think, no, we haven’t received any objection, or opinion of objection to this initiative. I think that they agree to the essence of this initiative, so we are happy with that and I think that we can really push forward with this. So, I – the Belt and Road Initiative is certainly one of the major actions that we take in – for the purpose of what is enshrined in the initiative.
So, I’m sure that we’re getting more and more support from the general international community. So we do believe that the three initiatives combined, security and civilisation combined, will be a – three pillars for the – what we call – what we propose, the human – mankind for a shared future. Thank you.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay, thank you. This – I’m trying to be fair to which – very equal here. This lady with the glasses on.
Patricia Lewis
Thank you.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
I apologise in advance ‘cause virtually every one of you seems to want to ans – ask a question.
Patricia Lewis
Thanks, and Patricia Lewis, Head of International Security here at Chatham House.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
My eyesight, I’m sorry, I can’t see you either, Patricia.
Patricia Lewis
It’s very hard – it’s alright, Jim, it’s very hard, I know, I do it all the time and I will have the same problem, so, and thank you very much indeed, Minister, for an excellent presentation, and I was really intrigued by you referring to China’s No First Use policy of nuclear weapons.
Mr Liu Jianchao
No what policy, sorry?
Patricia Lewis
No First Use policy of nuclear weapons, and we’ve had the Secretary of Defence here – sorry, at Munich talk about, you know, preventing the use and the taboo of use of nuclear weapons. So, I guess my question is how do we stop the use of nuclear weapons? How are we going to reinvigorate arms control and disarmament and non-proliferation measures, and particularly between Russia and the US, given the circumstances, and how can China help in that regard?
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Before you answer, anybody else that wants to ask a question close to this? ‘Cause if it’s another defence one I’m not going to take it. No? Okay.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Yeah. At the very early stage, after the Ukraine crisis, China made it very clear that China is against the use of nuclear weapons, or the threat of using nuclear weapons. Number one. Number two: we pledge that all the partners concerned should try their best to stop the crisis, the situation from escalating. And apart from that I don’t really see anything that could really stop a nuclear power from the possibility of using it, except China, because we pledge not to be the first to use nuclear weapons.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay, let’s come back over this side. Somebody in blue at the back.
Hugo Barker
Hugo Barker, a student, Imperial College. Do you see opportunities for co-operation on emerging technologies such as AI, or do you see us entering into a period of competition between our regions? And on top of that, do you see China having a competitive advantage…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
One question, one question, thank you. In that spirit, the one – one of the ones I was going to raise, and there’s many online about the whole issue of access to the Chinese market, but as it relates to this specific question as well.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Okay, AI. China would seek for the development of our own AI industry, and we’re doing quite well at the moment. But I think AI has two sides, that’s what everybody knows, so we are open to international collaboration and international consultations on how to govern the outcome of AI. On a ben – on one hand it will certainly benefit mankind, on the other side it could be dangerous or risky for mankind, so we’re open to any kind of international thinking and acting on this issue. So, I think it’s time for countries to join together on the governance of AI. Thank you.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
And on the broader issue of both the perception and I think, in some cases, strong belief that there is still not fair access to the domestic Chinese market?
Mr Liu Jianchao
You mean on…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
From the rest of the world.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Okay.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Others benefiting from the rise of the Chinese consumer and the Chinese economy.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Hmmm hmm. As I explained at the – when I was just about to speak, we are – China, as I said, that we are committed to the high standard of opening up. So we were never hesitant to work with other partners, both the West and the emerging ones, on, well, international governance and also two-way or multi-way co-operation, so that’s for sure. And I – another thing, you said we don’t – we are now seeing more and more globalisation being reversed in many countries.
We see one country put one country first, such philosophies and government initiatives. And we are seeing people talking about decoupling, though now they refrain from using such a word and they change it into derisking, and yesterday I was saying that, you know, when you’re saying derisking you have to define the risks, what are the risks? If you don’t manage the derisking well it certainly will result in decoupling, which is dangerous for international economy, and China would be la – the first country that, you know, that hate to see it.
So, we are – we’ll continue to be open, but we noted concerns from the British businesspeople community and others, they do have some concerns over Chinese policies and things. We do need to have more explanations, I have to be honest with that. So, for example, the – yesterday, I was approached with a question of the – China’s Counterespionage Act, and that was a must for China because it’s just an improvement of the original law. It was not a new one, because, well, security concerns and the immediate and actual threat to China has changed. So we have to change with that, but it does not really try to keep businesspeople away from us.
So, we ha – we’ll certainly do more explanations to the business community, and you have such a large one in China where I’ve had very useful interactions with the British Chamber of Commerce in China, we’ll approach them, certainly. So, we are still keeping an upper hand.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay. Let me we try – it’s nearly 1 o’clock, but I’m going to try two more questions, I’m sorry. I feel that I’ve come on this side of the room a lot. There’s a lady towards the back with a hand up. Oh, it’s Lesley.
Lesley Vinjamuri
Yeah, it’s Lesley. Lesley Vinjamuri.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
If I would’ve known it was you, Lesley, I wouldn’t have let you, but go on.
Lesley Vinjamuri
Yeah, Lesley, I direct the US and Americas Programme here at Chatham House, it’s an – it’s – and thank you for visiting us. As you know, Prime Minister Modi is enjoying a state visit in Washington, and I’m curious if you could say a little bit about what your perception is of that visit, and of the trajectory of that relationship. How does China feel about that?
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Let me take the – one other question. Everyone’s going crazy, I’m coming at the front, this Chinese or Asian gentleman towards the front. Linked to Lesley’s question, as I sometimes jokingly say, it’s a good job China and India never agree about anything, or then the BRICS would take over the world, but…
Chin Hai
Thank you, Minister Liu. My name is Chin Hai. I’m a Schwarzman scholar at Tsinghua University, and actually Incoming Research Fellow at Chatham House. So, the media have labelled assertiveness diplomatic style of Chinese Diplomats as ‘wolf warrior’, what do you make of that term? Do you think that has helped or hindered China’s modernization and its relationship with the West?
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Lesley’s question first. Are you envious of Prime Minister Modi?
Mr Liu Jianchao
No, not at all, not at all. You know, that we really wish to see countries to have good relations that, you know – particularly among the major countries, well, the United States is certainly the biggest country in the world, developing coun – developed country, and India is one of the major emerging economies, certainly we do want to see such interactions. So, we’re happy to see the Modis are going to be – is going to the United States, but certainly, we have concern over something about the US strategy of Indo-Pacific. Indo-Pacific is not inclusive, but rather it’s exclusive. So, China’s initiatives, China’s Belt and Road Initiative and China’s – the three initiatives that we mentioned, are all inclusive.
We welcome the ascension, the role of all the countries in the world, including the United States, including India, including the United Kingdom. So we don’t really want to see the such exclusive nature of any kind of strategy. And, you know, our relations with the United States is of vital importance to the world and to the two countries, and our relations with India, sometimes it’s difficult, and I won’t agree with you in saying that India will not agree on anything. But we have a lot of common ground on, for example, common and differentiated responsibility on the issue of climate change.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Let me actually just throw, if I dare as Chair, something I’ve often said to officials I’ve met now for, phwoar, best part of a decade. In terms of the Belt and Road Initiative, which interestingly, probably ‘cause of the time, you haven’t had much chance to talk about, but the – I want to ask you the same; why not invite the Indians to help design some of One Belt One Road?
Mr Liu Jianchao
We invite them, and we want to include them, and at the platforms, such as the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, the BRICS, the – what do we have in common? And many platforms, we approach them, and we also initiated a joint action plan, including South Asian countries like Myanmar, India, Bangladesh, China.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Yeah, and that might seem to prove your idea…
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Yeah, yeah, now we’re getting somewhere.
Mr Liu Jianchao
…which you mention just now.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
This guy’s question as the last question.
Mr Liu Jianchao
Oh yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. We – well, when we are under pressure, when China is under pressure, and China’s external policies are under pressure, we do demonstrate a fighting spirit, but I would be hesitant to call it what – warrior – what is…?
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Maybe better to just say spirits, rather than fighting spirit.
Mr Liu Jianchao
No, but anyway, the starting point and the fundamental purpose of China’s diplomacy is to make friends all over the world. We don’t want to make enemies, and coming back to the question of America-India relationship, we don’t really assume – we should try to – not to assume that an enemy’s friend is an enemy, it’s not. It’s not that case, so that’s why, you know, why you don’t really want to see – say that India – well, the United States something. So, we want to deal with each one, and each and every one of them, so that’s my purpose. So, at the starting point is to make friends, is to have a favourable international environment when China can really develop. But when we are faced with challenges, when we are faced with threats from other powers, we have to demonstrate a fighting spirit. Thank you.
The Right Hon Lord Jim O’Neill
Okay. Listen, thank you, that was exhausting for me, trying to just Chair everybody. Thank you for – so much for your appearance here and for your candidness. Thank you to all of you for being so gracious and short. I apologise to everybody, including online, that I couldn’t get to you all. I think we could probably have also handled the 12 hours that you had yesterday, but such is life. So, thank you very much and thank you to all of you [applause].
