The European Union Before, During and After Brexit

Tom Raines

Good afternoon everybody and welcome to Chatham House. My name’s Tom Raines. I’m the Head of the Europe Programme here at Chatham House. I’m delighted to welcome Nathalie Loiseau, the Europe Minister of France, today, who’s going to speak about The European Union Before, During and After Brexit, if you can all imagine life after Brexit. Before I introduce Nathalie, I wanted to just do a couple of notes of housekeeping. This meeting is on the record, rather than under the Chatham House Rule. That means that you can tweet, but please do so from a phone, which is on silent. There is a hashtag, I think, which is up on the screen here, which is LoiseauUK, so please use that to join that conversation. And, yeah, without further ado, I will introduce Natalie.

Natalie Loiseau became Minister for European Affairs in June 2017 in the Government of President Emmanuel Macron. Before that she has spent a distinguished career in the Foreign Ministry. Had several postings in different parts of the world. In Senegal, in Morocco, I think, Washington DC and then became the Director of ENA, the School for Public Administration in France before taking on her current position. So, I think, you’re going to speak to us for about 15 minutes or so, and then we will have some discussion and some questions, so please be thinking, during the speech, of the difficult questions you would like to ask the Minister.

Nathalie Loiseau

Thank you. Oh right. Well, thank you very much. I’m delighted to be here at Chatham House, the place where you still take time for research and knowledge, and this place has become rare around the world. We have a saying in France, and I think you have the same in Britain, ‘what is rare is precious’, so you’re precious. I would extend the quote and extend the saying to the fact that it’s been four years since the French European Affairs Minister come to the UK, so at least I’m rare, but here I am. Here I am, delighted to be here, convinced of the importance of our bilateral relation. Easy for me to be convinced. My father was a freedom fighter during the Second World War and his favourite sport was welcoming British Paratroopers in his parents’ property in the South West of France, without the knowledge of his parents. So, we know a lot about what we owe to you and to our common fights in the last century, and it’s part of my family history as well. And today, we face the same challenges.

We need each other, especially to ensure our security and our prosperity. Let me stress, in this context, how France stands with the UK, condemning the use of chemical weapons on British soils in Salisbury this year. I pay tribute to the remarkable work of the British Intelligence Services to make sure that the culprits are brought to justice for this despicable, hostile act of the Russian State.

I’ve come today to share with you, views about Europe, of course, this implies Brexit. I will start with this flavour of the day, but I won’t stop at Brexit, because Europe is much more than this. And because I have to confess, having been a career Diplomat for several decades, I don’t really enjoy spending time, energy and diplomatic skills to part from a close partner. But let’s start with Brexit. The way we are trying to diverse, without hurting the kids. It’s a noble ambition, but sometimes we know it in our private lives, with uncertain results. Before any EU 27 Official or Minister delivers a speech on Brexit, people usually expect them to repeat the same mantras. They roll their eyes and can almost utter the words on their behalf, the EU 27 is united, Michel Barnier is conducting the negotiations, and we are all behind him. Today, I might disappoint some of you, because I will say exactly the same, and there is one good reason for that, it’s because it’s true.

The unity of the 27 member states has never faltered, since the Brexit negotiation began. It has been a surprise, for quite a few, but there’s a reason. Indeed, we firmly believe in what we – in what keeps us together, and what makes us stronger together as a union. The EU is based on principles, which contribute to its attractiveness, and to which the UK agreed on, when it joined the European Communities. Our principles are not only part of our identity, they are simply the key component of our economic interests.

The Irish issue is a good example of how we are approaching the negotiations. The EU contributed to the peace process in Northern Ireland, in the years after the 1997 Good Friday Agreement. We don’t want to see something that has been carefully built, over the years, undone. This is why the EU 27 insisted a solution must be found to the Northern Ireland, Ireland issue before anything else. This is why we need a backstop. I visited the border of a few months ago. Well, the fact is, I visited nothing. There is nothing to see. People on both sides of the so-called border want to keep it exactly as it is. In recent weeks, I have heard comments underestimating the importance of finding a solution to the border issue. Let me state it clearly, I think it is irresponsible.

With your permission, I would very much like to engage with you in my favourite sports activity. Being diplomatic and straightforward, or mental at the same time. Brexit is the sovereign choice of a sovereign nation, we respect that. We regret it as much as we respect it, but it is what the British people have chosen for themselves and not for others. This is why there is no reason for the EU to change its rules and principles, simply because one member state is leaving. Brexit will necessarily have a cost. With the best possible will, and I can tell you our good will is immense, that there can be no better access to the single market, nor stronger strategic relations, than being member state of the European Union. There is simply no way that it could be a win-win situation for both parties, compared to the current one.

Interestingly, debates around the Brexit process have highlighted all the benefits of the EU. How often were the terms ‘customs union’ and ‘single market’ explained in detail before Brexit? These elements have become part of a political and economic environment that provides stability and prosperity. Having said that, we want to believe, that while maintaining the integrity of the European project and within the constraints I’ve just set out, we can reach an ambitious deal with the UK for its future relations with the EU.

In these negotiations, there is no question of punishment whatsoever, as I sometimes read in the British press. It’s about protecting our interests. The UK is defending its interest, so is the EU. There has been progress in the negotiations. We’ve reached agreement on more than 80% of the Withdrawal Agreement, including a transition period and a financial settlement. We have agreed on protecting the 4.5 million EU citizens in the UK and British nationals in the EU. We expect the rights of our citizens to be upheld. The UK has committed to this and so have we.

In France we have already begun to inform British citizens about how to obtain settled status, and in some regions, there will be a dedicated booth in Local Government Authorities offices to make sure that their applications are processed swiftly. We want an orderly Brexit and are working hard towards this goal. As Michel Barnier said, it will be an unprecedented deal because Brexit is an unprecedented situation. As you know, the target is to get that deal done by October. Right now the clock is ticking and more needs to be done in order to strike a deal by November at the latest. We need time to allow both the UK and the EU Parliament to ratify the deal. There is still a long way to go, both on the Withdrawal Agreement, and the future relationship. There are still significant differences on details and on the overall approach.

Let me take one example. The custom arrangements that have been put forward by the UK Government in its White Paper. Beyond the issue of principles regarding the collection of custom duties on behalf of the EU, everyone can see that this arrangement provides immense opportunities for fraud. This would undermine the integrity of the single market. In these circumstances, we have to prepare for every scenario. A no-deal scenario is possible. This is not what we want and not what we are working for. But we must be prepared for every eventuality.

The UK Cabinet met this morning to discuss preparation for no-deal. Fair enough, and I met Dominic Raab a few minutes ago. France and its EU partners have already done the same and started preparing for a no-deal. In France, I will soon go to the Parliament and ask the authorisation to pass emergency legislation, saving precious time to allow us to prepare, if and when the time comes. I don’t like what I’ve just said. I don’t want that Brexit would end up with a no-deal. I want a good deal. But I don’t want a bad deal either, which would come at the detriment of the EU 27. I want a good deal and the EU 27 wants a good deal, and we are prepared for this.

Now let me turn to the future of the European Union. Let us be clear, the EU needs reform. The challenges are high. To these difficult challenges, some suggest answers that seem easy and straightforward. Nationalism, protectionism, isolationism, sovereignism. This cynically exploits peoples’ fear and they live on problems, instead of working on solutions. Let’s go back to the challenges: global warming, migrations, digital transformation, trade sanctions. Do we really think all these challenges are interested in domestic borders? If they are not, is the EU the right place for us to address those issues? Definitely. Are we doing a good job in addressing them? Well, certainly there is room for improvement, but let me point out some positive steps we have achieved.

Digital: this year we faced the scandal of Facebook Cambridge Analitica, and at that very moment we found out that the European Union had come with the GDPR and had started thinking on how to regulate the digital transformation. Yesterday, I was in European Parliament in Strasbourg, when the European Parliament voted in favour of the new copyright directives adapted to the digital world. We prepare ourselves for a digital single market, which will boost innovation, protect citizens, protect artists and creators, protect publishers. That is to say that we will master the digital transformation, instead of being mastered by this transformation.

Trade disputes: we have had a hectic spring, then relief in summer, regarding our trade relations with the United States. We all know that we have been successful in cooling the tension because we were united. We all know that had we come separately to Washington, trying to negotiate, we would not have been heard. A united Europe was a powerful partner to have its voice heard from the Trump administration.

Climate: we work on an energy single market because renewable energy is the path we have to take, but we have to work in common, otherwise working on a national basis makes it extremely difficult to depend only or mostly on renewables.

Migrations: this is the hot issue in the European Union right now. Is it the migration crisis or is it a political crisis? This year, we have succeeded in lowering the number of entries in the European Union, in Italy coming from Central Mediterranean, up to 90% compared to last year. So, we are not in the peak of a crisis, the European Union was able to deal with the challenge, but nationalists are trying to use this opportunity to have their voice heard and look like strong men and women when they have only strong voices.

Defence and Security: we have talked about it in the European Union for decades and we have made more progress, in the last six months, than in the last six decades. We are creating a European Defence Fund and we are putting in common, our efforts, our research for capacities to be able to face the threats and needs of today. But more needs to be done, and faster. This is why France has proposed a year ago, a new vision for the European Union. President Macron set out six key areas for reforming the EU. Security, European sovereignty, foreign policy, facing up to global transformations, digital technology, industrial monetary and economic power. Our vision is both bold and simple. A more sovereign, united and democratic union to ensure an improved protection of EU citizens. But let me highlight an important point. We are no Federalists.

We respect that some member states may be willing not to engage in more sensitive new fields for the EU. No country must be forced to move forward, but no country must be able to block those who wanted to make faster progress or forge further ahead either. We just need a more flexible EU, even if there can be no cherry picking at what is the heart of the EU. I mean, our core values: democracy, the rule of law. Yesterday, in the European Parliament, the Parliament stated it very clearly, regarding Hungary, and rightly so.

It was long overdue. But I also refer to the single market, which is the apple of the eye of our power, prosperity, and attractiveness. We want to allow for greater differentiations. Europe is already moving in this direction and at several speeds. The Euro Schengen. There’s room there for a brand new Europe, room for a common market and room for intense co-operation as well. Of course the UK will always be a privileged partner for the EU. It may well have a place in this new Europe. It is really unfortunate that Brexit would occur precisely when we are building a more flexible EU, something that the UK had been thinking of for quite a long time.

A few last words on our bilateral relations. We are determined to maintain and enhance our strategic partnership with the UK. We all know that the Franco-British relationship is an old alliance, which has, indeed, recently formalised through the 2010 Lancaster House Treaties. That dates back at least to 1904, if not, 1854 with Crimea. At the core of this relationship is the fact that we share very similar views on most strategic issues, France and the UK often championing the same cause. From this similar approach stem joint objectives and actions, as we see in the Sahel region, as well as in Eastern Europe. This year, we are celebrating the centenary of the end of the First World War, with commemorations, but also, the organisation of a Forum for Peace on November 11^th in Paris.

I’d like to pay tribute to all the veterans from this country, who fought for the freedom of each and every one of us. Their bravery reminds us that our two countries destinies are closely bound up together. Ladies and gentlemen, my main message today is that change has begun in Europe. 2019 will be another transitioning and challenging year for the EU. Brexit, elections and a new EU Commission. We stand ready. Meanwhile, the external threats we face to our security, trade, economy, and way of life are tremendous. Brexit is a sovereign choice, but we do hope our future partnership will be as close and ambitious as possible. Thank you very much [applause].

Tom Raines

Thank you very much. That was a wide speech, covering lots of different issues. A restatement of the unity of the 27, the need for an orderly Brexit, but still, ambitious for a deal, as well as some important points about the future direction of the EU, which has obviously been such an important issue for Macron’s Government. A reform agenda for the future and the importance of UK-France bilateral relations. I’d like to ask a few – I am going to go back to Brexit, just for a short while, but it would be good to have, obviously, some questions on Brexit, but also, on some of the other topics and thinking, more broadly, about the future of Europe. To start thinking about the Withdrawal Agreement, and the – it’s the most urgent issue, as you mentioned, time is running short. There’s got to be a ratification process domestically in the UK, which I think, we all agree, isn’t going to be very straightforward, as well as going through the European Parliament. And the biggest issue, quite obviously, is the backstop in Ireland. How optimistic are you that there can be a breakthrough? In a way, the backstop is, I think, challenging, for a number of reasons, not least, in a way that it is about the future relationship, but it’s part of the Withdrawal Agreement. But is there a sense, perhaps, that the EU underestimates the sensitivities of what it’s asking from the UK, potentially involving a different degree of – different governance or regulatory setup, in a constituent part of the United Kingdom?

Nathalie Loiseau

Well, we all know that it’s not easy. Michel Barnier is extremely committed and he negotiates on a continuous basis with his British counterpart. But you may remember, how we agreed on the principles and the chapters of the negotiation when we started discussing Brexit. We agreed that we would start with Withdrawal Agreement, including the question of the Irish border, and then would come the future relationship. We agreed that we would move forward only when significant progress was made on the Withdrawal Agreement, and this came in December, and it didn’t come by chance. It came because there was an agreement, in principle, between the UK and the EU 27 on the situation of citizens, on the financial settlement, and on the Irish border issue.

In December, the United Kingdom committed itself to solving the Irish border issue in three different possible ways. A technical, ambitious, creative solution, which never came out. Something that would be related to the future relationship, and that would provide, with no difficulty, at the border. At the moment, we are talking with British Government, stating that the UK will not take part in the single market nor in the custom union. The future relationship does not provide for a natural solution to the Irish border. And third part of what we had agreed, on principle, was the backstop and we had the agreement of the resume on this backstop option, which remain the last resort. If we find something better, let’s do it.

Tom Raines

I think they’re still working on it.

Nathalie Loiseau

But if we don’t have anything else, let’s have a backstop because we cannot wake up, on March the 30^th, and say to our Irish friends that we don’t have a solution and that we have to have a hard border. We committed ourselves, both the UK and the EU 27, to avoid the hard border.

Tom Raines

So, I suppose in that – I suppose the risk is that the position on the backstop ends up, sort of, guaranteeing the outcome that’s trying to avoid, which is a hard border. If there isn’t a set of compromises that can get through the UK Parliament on that issue, but I suppose the risk everyone is worried about, is obviously, the no-deal prospect. Do you believe that if potentially, time was the biggest issue, that there would be options to extend the negotiation process in a way that would allow for the final issues to be resolved? And in what circumstances can you imagine an extension taking place?

Nathalie Loiseau

You know, Brexit is complex enough, so that I stick to the official position of the British Government. I never work on hypothesis. You know we have the saying in France, ‘was ifs and once you could put Paris in a bottle’. So, if the British Government would come with, or if the British Parliament would refuse, it’s not something that we can work on. We have an interlocutor; this is the British Government. We listen carefully to what Prime Minister May, to what Dominic Raab, to what Jeremy Hunt, to a certain extent, are telling us, and this is what we are working on. Should there be a new position, we would study the position, work on it and see what can be done. We want a good deal. This is the basis of our common position at the EU 27. Until now, there has been no official position, neither on a extension of Article 50, neither – nor on a new Referendum, or whatsoever. So, we work with the position that we have.

Tom Raines

Right, and just one question, you mentioned you were in the European Parliament yesterday, and as well as this new directive on copyright, there was also a vote on Article 7 proceedings, which are the component of the EU Treaty that allows the EU to take steps, when it feels that the values of the European Union are under threat in a constituent member state. Do you feel more – a) could you give us your perspective on that vote, and what – and the implications it will have, or what actions the Council might take? And do you think the EU has the tools to really protect the rule of law, in a member state, given it requires unanimity and the Council to take any serious action?

Nathalie Loiseau

Well, we fully supported the vote of the European Parliament, and it was probably long overdue. We have seen changes in the governance of Hungary, for a number of years, and we have been concerned, for a number of years, on question as important as independence of justice, fight against corruption, freedom of the media, freedom of minorities, rights of minorities, and so on and so forth. So, it was the first time that the European Parliament was taking this step to ask the Council to use Article 7. Do we have the proper instruments to deal with these risks for the rule of law in Europe? Probably not yet, because probably, people who sort out the treaties had no idea that questions regarding the rule of law, would be asked within the European Union.

We ask them on a regular basis to candidate countries, and we are demanding, regarding progress on governance and rule of law, and rightly so. But we had never thought that the question would be raised within the European Union, so you are right to say that regarding Article 7, there is a need for unanimity of the other member states, when one is at stake. And we already know that regarding Poland, Hungary expressed solidarity, and it would probably be true, vice versa, regarding Hungary. On this, the commission has made a proposal for the next Multiannual Financial Framework, which we are negotiating at this moment, and the proposal is to condition funding of member states, through European Union money, to the rule of law, and to – full respect for the rule of law. We support this proposal. It will be a lively debate, within the European Union, but there has to be a relation between receiving European money and sharing European values.

Tom Raines

Right, thanks very much. At this point, I’m going to take some questions from the audience. So, there was a mic coming, if you could just wait for that, and make sure you speak into the mic because there are some people watching on our livestream and if you don’t speak to the mic, they won’t hear you. So, please, if you could just introduce yourself first, as well?

Tessa Szyskowitz

Yeah, Tessa Szyszkowitz, the Austrian news magazine, Profil. You were saying that there is unity among the 27 members, but we get the feeling here that there’s a view, in London, that Berlin and Vienna, then Austria holds the EU Presidency right now. It’s a bit more open to compromise than the French Government would be, can you comment on that?

Tom Raines

Are the French playing hardball?

Nathalie Loiseau

You know, I understand how important and crucial the Brexit negotiation is for British citizens. I understand that you are looking closely to each and every statement, [inaudible – 34:21] from political leaders or opinion makers and trying to have a sense of what’s going on. But things are simpler than what people imagine in London. Michel Barnier is the EU Negotiator. Not the Commission Negotiator. He negotiates on behalf of the Council, so the Heads of State and Government, as well as the commission. He gets his mandate from the Heads of State and Government. The Ministers go there, on a very regular basis, to exchange views with him, and to express our priorities, and we always express our support for what he’s doing. So, everything that he says has been validated by the 27 Governments. There is no difference, and for good reasons, the situation of our citizens, living in the UK, is as important for Austria as it is for France.

Maybe a little bit more for France because we have probably, 300,000 French citizens leaving here and that there are probably more numerous than Austrians. But we are on the same page. Financial settlement, do you imagine there is one single member state willing to pay more, all receiving less? It creates a lot of unity. And regarding the consistency of the single market, it’s not a question of ideology, it’s the very reason why we have a European Union. It’s what makes us prosperous, attractive, and stable. So, there is no difference between member states on these different issues. We, as a member state, have very strong relation, including trade relations with the UK. We are among the member states with the strongest trade relation. We have companies with plants, both in France and the UK. Interests on both sides of the channel, so indeed, we are interested, maybe more than some others, in a good free trade agreement with the United Kingdom. But the principle – the interests of the member states are all the same.

Tom Raines

Okay, I’ll take one at the back there. Stood up at the back, John?

John Peet

Yes, John Peet from The Economist. Minister, you spoke eloquently of the importance of continuing defence and security co-operation with the UK after Brexit. I’m wondering how you reconcile that with the decision to exclude British firms from bidding for Galileo, and encouraging the British Government to feel that it has no alternative but to build a global positioning sys – satellite system of its own, which doesn’t seem to look like continuing defence and security co-operation?

Tom Raines

Galileo.

Nathalie Loiseau

Please let me thank you for asking the question. Because it helps me clarifying something that has spent a lot of time, too long to my view, in the British fog, in the recent month. Galileo. UK is a member of Galileo civilian services. There is no change before and after Brexit. Regarding the restricted part of Galileo, we have always said that we would discuss an agreement between the European Union and the UK, so that you remain a user of the restricted part of Galileo. There is no doubt about it, and discussing with my British counterpart, he agrees that things are clearer because Michel Barnier is doing an excellent job about it. The remaining question is, is it possible for British companies to participate in manufacturing security models for the restricted part of Galileo? And then, let us be clear, we have not decided that you would become a third country, but this is what you are about to become, and we don’t give the key to a security system to a third country, even to one of our best allies, and that’s the same with the American GPS. They don’t give the key to manufacturing the security units to another country.

Tom Raines

Okay, there’s a question just here at the front. Oh, sorry. Yeah, in the tie, please. Thanks.

Gordon Glass

Thank you. Minister, and my name’s Gordon Glass. I’m a supporter of the European Union, and I voted to stay and so, I remain frustrated that the EU has rolled over to the Leave the agenda, and the negotiation is the only game in town. It isn’t, because your President welcomed the UK to stay within the EU but has not – but nobody in the EU seems to have provided any clear incentive for the remainers to argue that we ought to stay. You’ve set out the benefits, and yes, we all know the benefits, but we need an incentive to stay, and there’s still time to – for the EU to provide a clear incentive, which will support those who – the 50% of us to actually do want to stay.

Tom Raines

Sort of, what do you mean? What sort of incentive did you have in mind?

Gordon Glass

Well, migration’s the hot topic , you’ve said it so…

Tom Raines

So, some kind of internal reform that it would make it easier for…?

Gordon Glass

The question of migration is clearly not being sorted at the moment. I read this morning that the EU has announced 10,000 armed Police to police the borders. That’s a scary prospect because that means we’re probably going to have a Berlin Wall at the Irish border, and, you know, we could, at some point. Personally, I would like to see something very positive and compelling, attracting a change in public opinion, within the UK, for those people who want to have it.

Tom Raines

Alright, thank you.

Nathalie Loiseau

You know…

Tom Raines

An incentive to stay.

Nathalie Loiseau

…I stated earlier that even if we regret the decision taken by the UK, we respect it because it’s a democratic decision and we are not supposed to interfere with domestic politics. British voters made up their mind and we have to respect it. Our role is to work on an orderly Brexit, but not to be stopped by this energy that we’re spending on Brexit. And we are transforming the European Union, for the interest of the remaining 27 member states. We are in this process of doing it on migrations, as I mentioned. Nationalists are creating a political crisis about migration at a moment where we have shown that we were able to deal with it on a practical manner. There are much less people reaching our coasts than before, and yes, indeed, we are creating more and more Coastguards and Border Official Officers for the European Union, in order to support member states with little experience, in terms of control of the external border. It provides us with more security, to fight against terrorism, and it provides us for a better ability to deal with migration. We are strengthening our union.

I mention climate change and I mentioned digital transformation. I had a concern, when I took my job, which was that we would spend so much time on Brexit that we would not deliver on the future of the European Union. Actually, we are spending time on both, and the good news for us is that progress is being made within the European Union for an ambitious transformation.

Tom Raines

Right, thank you, and there was a question just – a woman just in the corner there. Yeah, that’s right. Thanks.

Martine Powers

Hello, I’m Martine Powers, Journalist for French news agency, AFP. You said a deal has been reached on 80% of the issues. Can you tell us what can be concretely done by both parties to unlock the situation? And second question, do you think Brexit would be a good opportunity for France to attract dynamic talents back to France, as President Macron wishes?

Nathalie Loiseau

So, first, Michel Barnier and Dominic Raab are working on the remaining issues of the Withdrawal Agreement. Northern Ireland being the biggest part of it, and I do hope that they find a solution. Michel Barnier, earlier this week, said that “With realism, a solution wasn’t reached.” I hope there is going to be realism. For the time being, pragmatism is on our side and we look forward to sharing this pragmatism with our British counterparts.

Regarding attractiveness of France, this is not linked to Brexit. Since last year, we have been working on our attractiveness, with reforms of our labour market, reforms of our railway company, reforms of our education system. We’ll soon start reforming our health system, our hospital system and yes, indeed we are more attractive than what we were to foreign investors, and that’s good news for my country. This is not directed at – against the United Kingdom or vis-à-vis a special single country, this is something that was needed for a long time. We had spent many years lacking reforms in my country, and now we are working hard on it. The Government is very much committed to transforming our country. Whether it has consequences on companies or manpower living in the United Kingdom, this is not the purpose. This is not why we are doing it. We do it for our own benefit.

Tom Raines

Okay. There’s a question just there in the glasses.

Patrick Wintour

Thank you very much. I’m Patrick Wintour from The Guardian. There’s going to be a legally binding Withdrawal Agreement and a non-binding political agreement. There is a view that it’s possible that the Withdrawal Agreement will be quite vague – sorry the political declaration will be quite vague, and it will have very few details and has been called a blindfold Brexit. Do you have a minimum requirement of what you would like to see in the political declaration?

Nathalie Loiseau

Well, you’re right to mention the difference between the Withdrawal Agreement and the political statement on our future relation. Because a political statement is not legally binding. But we have to have it clear ourselves of the balance of rights and obligations, which will be the result of the next – of the future relation between the UK and the EU 27. Indeed, details will be worked out afterwards, and we hope we have this transition period to work smoothly on the future relation. But it would be to the benefit of none, neither of the UK or the EU 27, to remain vague on what is going to be our future relation. At the moment, we’ll talk the Withdrawal Agreement. There is a need for clarity and perspective for our fellow citizens, for our businesses. We cannot do as if we don’t know where we want to go, and we don’t know what sort of consequences or decisions have, otherwise we cannot be responsible leaders. So, there needs to be clarity on the balance of rights and obligations.

Tom Raines

And some other question just here. If you could just pass the mic forward, Patrick?

Member

Bonjour, [mother tongue – 48:42] President of the Foreign Press Association. In the eventuality of a no-deal Brexit, is it a real possibility that Eurostars, coming from London, will be rejected, and not allowed on French soil on 30^th of March? And, indeed, that British planes or planes leaving the UK soil, would be turned back? Is that actually a ‘scare us’ scenario, or is that actually part of the legislation that you are preparing to go to the French Parliament and prepare? Is that part of the French preparations?

Nathalie Loiseau

Well, consequences of a no-deal, which you mention, are correct. If we do nothing, and if we reach no agreement, this is what would happen. Among other examples, as you probably know. This is the reason why we need to prepare for a no-deal, because we cannot wake up on March the 30^th and say to our fellow citizens and to our businesses, “Well, we thought it would never happen, so we are not ready.” This is the reason why we had Cabinet meetings in France, several ones, on preparedness for a no-deal. Not because we want it, but because we owe it to our French citizens. And I will go to the French Parliament, in the coming weeks, for – with a draft bill, so that we get prepared for each and every possible scenario.

Tom Raines

Can I just – just to quickly follow-up on that, do you imagine, in the absence of a formal Withdrawal Agreement, which covers the big three issues, which it does on citizens’ rights, financial settlement, and the Irish border, in the absence of that, and to avoid exactly the, sort of, aspects of chaos that might come in their absence, can you imagine separate, smaller, specific agreements to deal with exactly the sort of problems that have come up in that situation?

Nathalie Loiseau

Well, in a second time, yes, in the future, yes. But we all have to realise that we cannot sign bilateral agreement with a member state. Until the moment you become a third country, there are no bilateral agreements, which can be signed, regarding the issues, which are covered by the European laws.

Tom Raines

Yeah.

Nathalie Loiseau

So, it makes things even more complex. We – what we are preparing, and probably what the British Government is preparing, is a list of unilateral measures, taken by each and every member state in different sectors, to make sure that we don’t turn March 30^th into chaos. And then, we would have to…

Tom Raines

Then a new process.

Nathalie Loiseau

… discussing, with the British Government, on bilateral agreements on dozens of topics for each and every member state. It would take up years, in my view.

Tom Raines

Okay. Alright, I think we’ve got time for one more question. Is that one just here in the red top, I think? This is the final question, so make it a good ‘un.

Gillian Mosley

Oh dear. Gillian Mosley, I am a staunch remainer and I’m still hoping that we won’t actually leave, and I’m very pleased to hear you say that there are reforms underway. This said, we are living in a world where populists are making very loud proclamations, usually, as far as I can tell, with no substance. And I’ve been waiting for our Government in Britain and the EU to come out in bitesize chunks to explain to people, not sitting in this room, why the EU is important, and what you are doing every day that is important, and begs our remaining in the EU?

Nathalie Loiseau

Well, you know this is a process that we are having among the EU 27 at the moment. We started what we call Citizens’ Consultations on Europe early April, and it will end up late October, everywhere throughout the European Union. In France alone, we are having more than 700 debates and an online consultation about the future of Europe, asking citizens what they want. What they want more, what they want less, what they want differently, from what we are doing today, what are their priorities? And of course, it gives us the opportunity to stress what the EU is doing on our daily lives for ordinary people, and it helps having the discussion, which we didn’t have sufficiently throughout Europe. Probably, in the UK, seeing the results, but elsewhere as well.

Tom Raines

I think definitely in the UK. That – I’m afraid we are right out of time. Thank you very much, Ms Loiseau…

Nathalie Loiseau

You’re welcome.

Tom Raines

…for your time for taking on all those questions [applause].