Transforming food systems for a sustainable future

Bernice Lee

In terms of our needs when it comes to energy and food security, but also the need to rethink different things that we have taken for granted for a long time, whether we’re talking North-South relations, East-West relations, globalisation, equity, but of course, not least, and so very importantly, we’re also talking about questions of technologies and future production systems, as well.

So, today we are very really glad to be co-hosting this event with our partner, Marfrig, here and today, what we will do is we will start with a couple of keynotes and then, we will have a panel discussion, where we will also, thereafter, invite some audience participation. And then, after that, there will be a reception, which is, of course, the most exciting thing that is standing in the – to be expected upstairs.

But before I let you get on with the rest of the excitement, we, sort of, should say that by the time – I will explain again when we actually have the Zoom what will happen. The event is bilingual, so if you need, you should have the translation toolkits around you, so that you can make sure that – and for me, it is a relative challenge, as always, to try and balance. I mean, I’m, unfortunately, very, very, very not bilingual on this occasion. And not only that, I do apologise in advance to all our speakers, as well, that I will likely murder their name, as well, because – why my excellent pronunciation wouldn’t go unnoticed by them.

But today, what we will do, as I said, if we start off with a couple of keynotes and then, we will start with Marcella Molina to start with, who’s a member of the Sustainability Committee of Marfrig. And obviously, we are very honoured, actually, to have the perspective from – in fact, today we were complaining, no, not us, I was complaining with someone else about another meeting I was in earlier, that we never had enough of the next generation perspective. So, we thought that as a change, we will start with the next generation perspective, but Marcella, why don’t you kick us off, please?

Marcella Molina

Me to?

Bernice Lee

Whatever you like, you can sit down, you can stand up, whatever you like.

Marcella Molina

Okay.

Bernice Lee

Please.

Marcella Molina

Alright.

Bernice Lee

Please.

Marcella Molina

Good afternoon, everybody. It’s a honour being here today. I am Marcella Molina from Marfrig. First of all, I will like to thank Chatham House for hosting this important discussion in behalf of Marfrig Group and my family for the transformation of food systems for a sustainable future.

For us, Marfrig, sustainability started back in 2009, when we signed a public commitment with Greenpeace for disforestation free in our supply chain in Amazon. In 2010, we launched a geomonitoring satellite platform. Fast forwards to 2018, we established a partnership with Embrapa for carbon neutral and low carbon beef protocol. In 2019, my father created the Sustainability Committee within the company and one year later, he invited me to join, because when I was little, I was asking to my father, “What we are doing about the discussions that is happening around the world? What can we change on our production?” Allowing me to closely witness and actively participate in all the ongoing activities.

During my two years in the committee, I’m very proud that we achieved the inclusion of over 300 producers in our supply chain, that now are doing right in the standards of the market and Marfrig, and the implementation of the low carbon livestock. In 2022, we closed 100% traceability of our direct suppliers and more recently, we closed 74% of Cerrado region in our direc – indirect suppliers and 80% of our indirect suppliers in the Amazon region.

Our programme, Marfrig Green+, that was launched in 2020 is – lays on three pillars: technical assistance, financial mechanisms, and traceability. We need to produce, conserve and include is the key to meeting the demands of tomorrow’s consumers. Marfrig is ranked and is globally recognised as the top-rated beef company in major sustainability rankings, such as FAIRR, CDP and BBFAW. These recognitions shows that Marfrig is in the right track and its sustainability reference, not only in Brazil, but worldwide.

As part of the next generation, I am committed to continue all the hard work Marfrig has been doing in the field of sustainability and in collecting climate change. It is important to ensure the continuity of this responsible action, which reconciles food production and nature protection.

To conclude, I would like to extend my sincere thanks for each and every one of you. I would also like to thank Minister Izabella Teixeira, Roberto [Archi – 11:29] Marcelo Furtado and [Ernst & – 11:33] Young, and Professor Walter from the University of Columbia and our Sustainability Director, Paulo Pianez. Thank you very much [applause].

Bernice Lee

Thank you very much, Marcella. I think that – I mean, you know, we often talk about how dangerous it is for some CEOs who are not going to be around to be making comments well into the future. So, for a change, we have someone who probably will out – certainly outlast me, but also – more likely than not, but also have the commitment that is actually really near-term, which is 2025, Brazilian [inaudible – 12:11] in 2030, so, rather. So, I think that it’s really a good start to our discussion today.

So, with that, I would like to also ask now Jorge Viana, who is the President of the Brazilian Trade and Investment Promotion Agency, as well, to join us to give his keynote. I mean, we heard about the recalibration, we heard about the commitments and we also know that – I mean, you would know more than all of us that trade is now – it is often a dirty word in many parts of the world, because it means giving some – giving control to other people. So, I think, you know, we now here that Brazil is back. Obviously, Marfrig, as well, is a very inspo-oriented company, as well. So it’d be really important to hear your perspective in terms of the challenges, in terms of delivering these commitments, both in terms of trade, as well as, obviously, zero deforestation, as well, for Brazil. Thank you, Jorge.

Jorge Viana

[Mother tongue – 12:58-19:41].

Bernice Lee

Thank you very much, Jorge [applause]. I think that recently, trust is often a topic that comes up in international relations, but perhaps very importantly, I, sort of, just had lunch, actually, with a colleague earlier, who would literally shudder at the prospect of increased livestock production anywhere in the world. So, in some sense, the burden of proof is pretty high when it comes to trust, which is why I’m honoured and glad that we have a panel right now to talk through some of these challenges, as well, that we’re going to face today. So, if I may invite the panel to join us, as well, and thank you, Jorge, for your keynote remarks, and thank you very much, Marcella [applause].

If I may invite the panel to join us, if I understand the – on stage, so that we will have 30 minutes of a discussion, followed by some questions, as well.

Izabella Teixeira

Yeah, okay.

Bernice Lee

I mean, if in doubt, just to be clear, though, I’m just following orders here, so, in case it wasn’t clear. I mean, we just heard some very exciting prospects here just now in terms of the potential to produce sustainably, but also bring different types of, you know, obviously, trade and other opport – and nutritional opportunities, as well. But at the same time, we know that it is often – the situation is often complex, that there will be a, sort of, nice way of putting complexity to describe what it is.

So, today, we have a couple of panellists who are extraordinarily well qualified, all of which will – excuse me for introducing their credential only very briefly in terms of the title, so that we can get straight to the substance, as well. I mean, well, starting us off right now is Walter Baethgen, who is Senior Research Scientist at the Climate School in Columbia University, who will kick us off with a bit on the science side in terms of where we are in terms of research, some of the research findings on food systems transformation. So, I understand that you also lead on the sustainable healthy diet piece of the network of the Climate School, which is enormously ambitious and exciting undertaking at Columbia University around, you know, obviously not just today’s knowledge, but also tomorrow’s generation, as well. Why don’t I pass it to you?

Walter Baethgen

Sure. Thank you very much for the invitation. Good afternoon, everybody. So, in discussing sustainability of food systems and especially in this audience, one of the food systems that is receiving, or components of the food system that is receiving a lot of attention, is livestock production system, clearly. And I want – so, the first concept that I would like to say is that there is not such a thing as a livestock production system. There are many different products, livestock products and systems, some of which are completely unsustainable and some of which are completely sustainable. And especially when you talk to audiences that are not very familiar with agriculture collection systems, people tend to put livestock production system, like one homogeneous things, which – no, right?

Nobody will discuss the production system that is based on deforestation, burning a tropical forest and then planting a patch of, and then raising cattle. There’s no way to defend that as being sustainable. But there – sustainable – there are production systems that are based on natural ecosystems, grasslands, that have had herbivores grazing for eight million years at least, part of the equilibrium. They can be – they are sustained. So, point one, there is not a livestock production system.

Point two, we are very worry about greenhouse gas emissions. We are getting to really dangerous situation regarding emissions, regarding climate change and in food systems, there’s lots to be done, a lot, particularly in livestock production systems. But if we’re really worried about climate change, if we are really worry about greenhouse gas emissions, let’s not get distracted. 75% of the greenhouse gas emissions are still coming from fossil fuels. So, yes, there’s a lot we can do in food systems, there’s a lot we can do in livestock production systems, but let’s not get too distracted.

And the third message, the third concept, is a word of caution when giving messages that are intended for global audiences, and that sometimes I find them very North centric. One example is the world should eat less meat, less animal protein. That message makes a lot of sense for a country like the United States, where people are eating 120 kilos of meat per year per capita, that’s a lot. That message does not make any sense in Sub-Saharan African countries, in Ethiopia, where people are eating ten kilos per capita per year and where high nutrient food is very necessary to combat products of food security and nutrition.

So, those are the three messages that I wanted to leave with you. One, there is not one livestock production system. There are some that are sustainable, some that are not. Two, lots to do with greenhouse gases emissions, climate change, in food systems, but let’s not get distracted. And three, let’s be careful when we send messages to the world that are too North centric. Thank you.

Bernice Lee

Thank you very much, Walter. I think that some people might say that it’s not a question of distraction, and it’s about we’re in a world where we have to tackle sources of all emissions, and therefore, I think it’s important to remind ourselves of that, as well. We can come back to that in a bit, if you like.

Now, now that we’ve heard some of the, sort of, thinking how in the, sort of, recent transformation science, as well, I thought it’s a good time for us to go to Luiz Amaral, as well, who’s the CEO of Science Based Targets Initiative. Now, we talked about trust already. In many ways, it is about our ability to prove that indeed, what you say you’re doing is being done. So, of course, very important verifiers and intermediaries, in some ways, like SBTi, is a big part of it. So, Luiz, would you like to share your thoughts with us, please?

Luiz Amaral

Well, thank you so much. It’s a great pleasure to be part of this panel, to be joined by such distinguished fellows. Delighted to meet some of you, great to re-see some of you, as well, and thanks for the invitation. I’m so sorry that I cannot be there today. So, I’ll try to have a very brief introduction on three things. First up, what is SBTi? Why we do what we do, and finally, a little bit of the – of reflections around what does it mean for food systems in general and Brazil specifically?

So, I’m Luiz. I’m the CEO of the Science Based Targets Initiative. We’re a global standard setter that defines what good corporate climate ambition looks like. Basically, we do two things. We define the standards, the rules of the game, and we validate if companies adhere to those standards when it comes to their clim – corporate climate ambition.

I joined the initiative about a year and four months ago. When I joined, there were 2,000 companies in the world that had committed to set those targets, out of which half of them had already set those targets above 1,000. One year and four months later, we’re now at 5,000 companies with commitments globally, 27 hundreds, which have already set commitments. So, we more than doubled in size for the third year in a row. So, what is started as a ripple is now really a wave and if you look at what is coming behind that wave, I can see even a bigger wave coming. It’s no longer a matter of just the differentiation, but is an issue that it’s business as usual these days.

Not only that – well, that – we see now that one third of the global economy is committed to this and we start to see adoption of those rules and in some, even, governmental policies, for example, the US White House Procurement Policy has quoted SBTi as one of the requirement. Norway Government has added that to some of their state-owned enterprises, as well. So, again, the ripple is a wave, and it is coming everywhere.

Why it’s so important to do what we do and that’s where – was your question, so that’s the second point. Well, if we don’t define what good looks like from the start, it’s very hard to define if you’re achieving those goals, right? We really have to define from the start what success looks like in a standardised way, because that’s how we can evaluate if you’re meeting those goals and if you’re setting the KPIs and etc. If you don’t do that in a standardised way, there’s a risk that we – that the corporate climate action becomes a storytelling competition, each one telling the good stuff that they’re doing, but without a comfortable, well-defined method.

And that’s hence, I think, one of the key value added that we are bringing to the global economy, is that definition of success so everybody can know very transparently what looks like, that’s the first thing. And the second thing is that the definition of success is based on not what we can do, but what needs to happen. The principal of the science-based target is really trying to define what the global models are telling us and what really needs to happen in order for us to keep our global emissions under the thresholds that has – have been agreed.

And a final point on why we do that, and I think Marcella pointed at – that out at the beginning, is because we need to change the way business think. Instead of thinking balance sheet over balance sheet, and I know it’s hard for some of folks that are in executive positions to think too much in the long-term, but defining those long-term objectives are very, very important. Executive change and the perception of times and planning, which are needed by corporate actors to really tackle those goals, because it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon that we need to run to deliver on those objectives.

To conclude, the final point of my intervention was, what does this all has to do with global food systems in general and Brazil specifically? We work in all of the sectors of the global economy, but also in food agriculture and land use. More recently we published our Food Agriculture and Land Guidance, which really focused on the idiosyncrasies of the food and agricultural sector, and I must say that I’m biased. Having worked for more than 20 years on food and agriculture and sustainability, that’s the sector that is the closest to my heart, and being a Brazilian, I’m also a little bit biased, right?

So, two things to conclude on that front. What does it means for agriculture? One it was already mentioned by Walter, regardless of – for – of fossil fuels to the majority of the emissions globally in energy, but food and agricultural systems is one fourth. So, there’s no way we can tackle of global food problem or for global emission problem, if you don’t tackle that on food and agriculture as well.

And as I said, I came from the fact – the food and agricultural sector and now, I’m learning about cements and oil and gas and buildings, and I usually talk to my colleagues back on the food and agricultural systems, is that “We actually got it less hard than other sectors. Some sectors we need to completely transform themselves, like the energy one. Food and agriculture just need to do what it does better.” You don’t have really to retransform that, and one of the reasons is because it has a superpower. It’s a big source of emission, but if it done well, it can actually help capture and store emissions.

So, when it comes to Brazil, we really have two things that we need to tackle: deforestation and sustainable land use, and that’s probably – again, when I say we got it easy, is because it’s probably one of the smallest marginal costs that we got on the globe to reduce emissions. That’s the good news. The bad news, I think the challenges are twofold. One is that majority of the emissions are in supply chains. So, it was mentioned here the traceability in dealing with your upstream supply is the number one thing that food and agricultural companies need to deal with.

And the second, inconvenient truth, and Walter touched that on a little bit, is that although majority of the things, we just have to do what we need better. The truth is if all of the world is to eat meat as we do in Brazil or as you do in the US, the system doesn’t – cannot support that. So, I fully agree that we cannot – and we can – we still meat, but we need to bring this inconvenient truth on the discussion that all of the world cannot eat meat the way that we Brazilians, Argentines or Americans eat meat. And that’s one of the inconvenient truths in the global challenge.

But again, food and agriculture has a less hard way than some other sectors. I’m very glad to be here and look forward for the discussions.

Bernice Lee

Brilliant. Thank you very much, Luiz. It’s just really helpful to hear about the definition of ‘good’ in some ways, and benchmarking what must as opposed to what could, which is very important. But also now, the onus, of course, as well, is partly to – our next speaker’s, you know, job is he is a Sustainability Director for Marfrig, is how do you use systems, such as traceability and others, to really demonstrate that you – that it’s not – the must could be delivered by the good part, as well? So, why don’t I pass to you, Paulo Pianez, please, Sustainability Director for Marfrig?

Paulo Pianez

Okay, thank you, Bernice, thank you for the invitation and thank you, all of you. Actually, we believe, and I’m very positive, that Brazil has the conditions to have a full deforestation and fully traced cattle production. It is possible the conditions are available in Brazil, and we have the instrument and the datas to do that, and I think that now we have a open dialogue and the conditions in the government level to put in place this need that we have in the cattle production. As well, thus, I believe that traceability is the main issue that we have to show to do more of that. We have beef production free, deforestation beef production, and it is – we have technology to establish and to implement low carbon beef production, as well.

Livestock production is a challenge the whole world spec – in Brazil, specifically, we have to reconcile production and conservation and it is that possible to do. Brazil now has the instruments to do that, such as the Rural and Environmental Registry, and the Animal Movement Permission. With the two instruments that we have available now in Brazil, if we have a combination between the instruments and datas, we can establish, we can put in place a very strong, a very huge, traceability system for now. And in a company level, Marfrig has been working very hard in the last four years and we established and implemented a very sophisticate – a very huge system to trace the whole supply chain, based in including – inclusion perspective.

Most of the strategy around the world, when we are talking about banks, retailers and the other actors in the supply chain, the strategy has been based in an exclusion. You cannot supply just because you have some environmental or social issue to be addressed. But we believe that in the last ten or 12 years, this approach is not, or has not a good way to do that.

Four years ago, we established a new approach for that. This new approach is based in – to understand the reality of the farmers in our supply chain and then, after that, if they have, or if he has, some environmental issue or social issue, how we can support them to address and to fix the issue, and then, we can keep in our supply chain producing a sustainable way. It’s much more intelligent to act in this way.

And we believe that we have to establish some requirements to do that. In terms of financial market or the banks, we have to develop new instruments to support this strategy. For example, rural credit or rural loans in Brazil don’t fit in this need to support or to transform the cattle production in Brazil. On the other hand, we have to support the supply chain with technology, technical assistance and support to regularise land or environmental issues and then, we can have to implement a real sustainable way or sustainable production model. That’s what Marfrig is doing, and we have a model, we have a structure, we have the technology that shows that it’s possible to implement a sustainable beef production, and totally traced and with a low carbon – in a low carbon perspective, as well.

So, I believe that we are dialoguing with the government, and we believe that we can be, and we are, a transformative agent in this sector, and our system, our model, our technology, is totally available to be scale up in a federal level. So, with this, I believe that we have, now in Brazil, actually, a real condition to show the world that the model to produce beef should be based on inclusion, on technical model to do that, and based in a sustainable way in the low carbon production. So, Marfrig has the instruments to do that, and we are doing that right now. Thank you.

Bernice Lee

Great. Thank you. I mean, I just want to be clear that I have watched – sort of, times everybody and it’s, kind of, shockingly precise, everybody, to the point of five minutes. But – so, the good news here is that you’re saying you can.

Paulo Pianez

Yeah.

Bernice Lee

And by the way, there’s a bit of geekery going on in the questions here, and there’s some very technical terms of our supply chain coming through, questions online. A bit of geekery and that I’m not entirely sure I highly understand myself, so I’m going to need some help explaining it to me in a second. But before we do so, though, last, but most certainly not least, now, Izabella Teixeira, who’s the Co-Chair of the International Resource Panel, Minister. We should call you Minister?

Izabella Teixeira

Yeah, it’s…

Bernice Lee

Yeah.

Izabella Teixeira

Or…

Bernice Lee

Yeah, or – exactly. Please.

Izabella Teixeira

Oh, thank you very much, first of all. It’s so nice to meet you again, my dear friend, and also honour. Thank you for joining us today in London. Let me see how I can share some thoughts here, understanding this momentum, this particular momentum in Brazil and also in the world. And of course, as our – everyone has mentioned, that have technology solutions, etc., etc., in the role of Brazil, I think that two or three things must be very important to be understood.

The first one is Brazil is part of the world, okay, it’s important to observe this. Sometimes people want to discuss about Brazil, thinking that we are not part of the world. This Amazon region something that’s untouchable. We have more 30 million people, Brazilians that live in Amazon region, okay, and the lowest rate of development, human develop index in Brazil. The majority of these people lives in cities, 80%, okay? So, it’s very interesting how a country that has a territory, or a biome, that means around 60% of our national territory, how we should bring Amazonia together with us and Brazil together with Amazon regions, to make sense that we can drive solutions, not be part of the problem.

And I can say this, from the comfortable position, because as Minister, I have the lowest rates of deforestation during my term, and I know the difficults and the complexed to deal with organised crime and environmental crime and the co-responsibility of international marks – markets to drive, or to buy things, and not necessarily technology, but not a day from the past as yesterday. So, it’s my first point.

My second point is that Brazil it’s a country of solutions, okay, and a country with singularities. Amazonia, or Amazon Forest is one of them, but also Atlantic – South Atlantic is another one, who have more than 8,000 and 500 – thousands of kilometres of coast zone. No other countries have this in the world. You have more than 150 years of peace with our neighbours, and we are part of a really important international group. Only 15 countries in the world have food diplomacy relationship with other countries of world. I’m very proud of Brazil to be part of this. So, we’re able to dialogue with the world. It’s very important that we’ll go to dialogue with anyone to understand their realities and to speak their languages.

So, my feelings, my second point, people must learn more how to share with Brazil solutions, or be part of the solution, be constructive and not only reactive, and be proactive, if we want to change global politics.

The third point, climate change is part of the new global geopolitics. In Amazonia – in Brazil, it’s important because of Amazonia. So, if you want to come into the climate change agenda in Brazil, and you know this, as my friend, but proba – my new friends don’t know about this, our focus on climate change it’s based on nature. It’s not very difficult, it’s not based on energy, if you see, your difficult, okay, your barrier. My energy mix in Brazil today is that what you want to have by 2026/2027 and I’m ashamed that probably you are not able to deal with this, because we have a war here and your alliance to tackle this war is based on copper, okay? So, don’t discuss with us without looking behind your backyards.

This is very important politically, because we are looking for to address something very critical for business and for political role, credibility and trust. And we need to go against the lack of credibility and trust that you have today between North and South and you don’t have between East and West world, considering a country like Brazil, or the Global South. So, it’s very important to understand when you have a company that’s under pressure, I could pressure on them, okay, in the past. I’m still putting pressure, yes, okay. It is very important to understand how a business leader want – okay, let’s try to change.

And what has happened here today, even consider size v target and nature-based solution, etc., etc., is that probably you have a really high difficult to address these considered the other private sector, or all the private sector in Brazil. Because we are bringing you not only solutions, innovations, business model, but also science as a political actor, and if you were to play – base it – looking for to attracts credibility, to let’s move the pieces and really to be part of the solutions, let’s not wait for what, 30 years, for IPCC to say that we have a problem.

I’m sorry, but again, okay, development countries, G7, as today you have in Financial Times, you don’t have the solutions for the world, because if you had, you should probably solve this 30 or 40 years ago. I was too young when they have done agreement at UN 92. I was there, okay, and I was the Head of Brazil in the original Paris Agreement, and I know the difficults to address solutions, to change, to pay for this, the cost to pay for this. What – how can facings? We need to come together, and this is something very important, because it’s really a hard task to convince business leaders or business countries – companies to come into the room with another adult, okay, to address solutions. Make sure that the short-term perspective have trade-offs with patients that not necessarily will imply in solution long-term perspective.

So, my feeling is that. I think that this is an asset, it’s a new trajectory. I think that we need to build together credibility, trust. We need to come into regional perspectives, because it’s not only the global perspective, how the South Ameri – South America will play – should play innovative role to bring solution, to share solution, and to also, to go with food productions, not only based on the hunger, oh, also, to fighting poverty, education, etc. And I base it on how ageing, because we are getting older, God bless me, okay, and we are getting old and again, have ageing, you need to move from a care economy to care society. And this means that we need to have a new way to have food production.

So, my feeling is that let’s invite the private sector to discuss based on reality and not on something that are touchable or tangible, and make sure that you can provide jobs, you can – and this and that at the role of technologies and don’t forget, nature crisis comes together with democracy crisis in the Western World. It is very important, for me, for my society, to maintain such President democracy stand up. Let’s do it, but let’s work hard and, of course, I promise for the one that like to have a bit risk, that you can have low carbon beef as soon as possible, I hope so. Thank you, back to you now.

Bernice Lee

Thank you [applause].

Member

That’s excellent, thank you [applause].

Bernice Lee

If I follow my order sheet, which I have been following, we should be doing a moderated discussion part right now. But I – because I’m – I, you know, I work at Chatham House, I’m an international relations person, as well, of course, I’m very interested in a lot of questions about Brazil and the world and – but particularly Brazil’s potential contribution to the world in the context of what’s coming up at G20 and possibly even COP, as well. So, I thought that what we should do is to get there later on, but – which is why I thought that it may be helpful – did I miss something? That I thought that it may be helpful for us to take in some of the questions from the audience, because I’ve got quite a lot of very specific questions online and, also, in the room, as well. And then, just so you know, my moderated part, I’d like you to, sort of, really offer some thoughts about how can we best, with Brazil, rethink the global agenda as you come into the G20 Chair and other things down the line. So, that’s coming at some point in the next 40 minutes or so.

But before we do that, I want to take some questions from the room and also from a lot of the questions that is coming through. I would start by saying that if I may ask some of the questions from online.

Walter Baethgen

Yay.

Bernice Lee

Well, a lot of them are going to be for Marfrig, to be fair, don’t worry, there’s a fair amount there. I mean, a lot of them are, basically, saying, “How could you?” you know, in some ways, right? And also, even if you did and what you said you would – you were going to do, what about JVS, what about all the others, because you’re not the only producer? So, that’s fundamentally, sorry, I mean, my very high-level summary of a lot of very detailed question. And more will come your way, but let’s start with that.

You know, we all know – we know about deforestation risks, we know about livestock related deforestation risks, we know that scaling is a challenge. We know that even if you do brilliantly, you’re not the only one, and many other actors in the system. So, how could you, is really, kind of, what – and how could you persuade the rest of the world, really, that you really have a way forward that is, in fact, doing all the things that you said that you should do?

So, I’m afraid this is a question for Marfrig, but obviously, Izabella and Walter and also Luiz, as well, if you want to chip in, as well, and then we’ll take the question in the room after that.

Paulo Pianez

Well, yeah, that’s important to understand a little bit the complexity of the livestock production in Brazil, first of all. We have 2.5 million producers. Actually, Brazil has five million farms, 2.5 million farms is dedicating in the care of production in Brazil, 2.5 million farmers. The other point, we have more than 1.2,000 industries, meat packers, slaughterhouse, producing beef in Brazil. Most of the production are in Cerrado, Amazon and in the South of the country.

So, when we are talking about how to scale up traceability, or how to implement systems to prevent, or to avoid, deforestation, we have to keep in mind that it is important to have a consultation or an interworking between, or among, the several actors in the supply chain. First of all, in an industry, or in a sector level, we are working together and Marfrig has leading this process, showing that it’s possible to do that just because we have in place a mechanism to do that. But we have been engaging other important – very important actors, such as banks, just because we believe that you have to have conditions to finance these sort of transformations in the cattle production. There is no transformation, there is no other way to do that if we don’t have enough money, enough financial resources, to do that.

So, we have to build a new way to finance the cattle production in Brazil, to put in place new technologies, to implement the technologies, to trace the production and we have to develop some public policies to do this, as well. There is no regulation in Brazil to trace the production in cattle, in soy or in – or in other commodities that we produce in Brazil. So, it is important to keep in mind that to do that, the approach should be different from the last 12 years, as I said, and I believe that now, we have the conditions to do that, just because, as I said, I have – we have the model. We are doing this in our supply chain, we can engage the sector, but we need to engage government to develop public policy to do that, and we have the financial agents to finance the transformations that we need to put in place.

Bernice Lee

Thank you, and what I want to do is I want to take a few questions here and then come back to you all, and then – and I will bring some more questions from the – from online, as well. And so, I would have the person in the middle and then the person over there, so the microphone will come to you. Please introduce yourself, as well, as you speak.

Dr Nadaud

Of course. Good afternoon, thank you for coming here and speaking today. I’m Dr Nadaud. I’m a member of Chatham House and a representative of the United States. While we all know we need to change our eating habits, the United States is known for having an intention deficit when it comes to engagement in Latin America. What can the United States do from a trade, export, technology issue, to support Brazil in this transition to more sustainable food production?

Bernice Lee

I must confess, I find that a lovely, refreshing question that I wasn’t expecting that kind of…

Izabella Teixeira

You have a beautiful voice.

Bernice Lee

Sorry?

Izabella Teixeira

She has a beautiful voice.

Bernice Lee

She has.

Izabella Teixeira

It’s true.

Bernice Lee

Absolutely. Oh, well, I’m not sure that we should be commenting on that, but nonetheless. The gentleman over there, please.

Izabella Teixeira

Okay.

Member

Thank you, everyone. I mean, I have so much pressure with all the people in the audience, I will make the question in Portuguese.

Bernice Lee

Hold on, let me put my thing in. So…

Izabella Teixeira

I understand Portuguese. Speak Portuguese, go ahead.

Member

[Mother tongue – 54:55-55:54].

Izabella Teixeira

I’m sorry, you…

Bernice Lee

So, there is a question from the online that is a similar question, which is that if companies won’t come together voluntarily themselves, what can government do? So, if I can lump these together a little bit, so what can governments do, and then, what can other countries, such as the US, help as well? So, well, Izabella, would you like to take this? And then, maybe we’ll then go to Walter, Luiz and…

Walter Baethgen

I can…

Izabella Teixeira

I’m the last one.

Walter Baethgen

I can talk a little bit about technology.

Bernice Lee

You want to go first?

Izabella Teixeira

Yeah, I should…

Paulo Pianez

I think that Professor Walter could…

Walter Baethgen

Yeah, I can…

Paulo Pianez

…talk a little bit about the green calf.

Walter Baethgen

The green cattle, the green cattle.

Bernice Lee

Is there such a thing?

Walter Baethgen

Yes, yes, there is. So, several things. First of all, one of the challenges is methane emissions, right? Methane emission has one carbon and four hydrogens. Where is that carbon coming from? Is that new carbon that was buried as petroleum, was buried as natural gas, was part of coal, or was that carbon part of the cycle and has always been there? It’s a question.

And I was very curious about that question and so, I just recently found the paper published in the proceedings at the National Academy of Sciences in the US. And these guys studied the concentration, not the concentration, the emission of methanes from animals about 12,000 years ago. What happened 12,000 years ago, nobody understands exactly why, one billion big animals died in a very short time. Just in South America, 100 species were lost and these were big animals. The average weight was 1,000 kilos, about a tonne.

So, the question is, before that big extinction, what was the amount of methane being emitted to the atmosphere from animals and how does that compare to today’s emissions, because today is a lot of cattle hit more – almost a whole population of ruminant and domestic? And the level of methane emitted 12,000 years ago was very similar to the level of methane being emitted today. So, it’s not – first, we are not injecting new carbon like we do when we burn fossil fuels, and two, in general, globally, the amount of methane coming from the methyl ruminants is quite similar to what happened 12,000 years ago. So, from a carbon-methane standpoint, we want to go back to an equilibrium, which equilibrium, because 12,000 years ago, it was not very different from now? Methane from ruminants, I’m not saying anything else, but I will say.

And then it’s a water issue. This concept of water footprint, does it make sense? When you say you need – I can’t remember the number now, but something like 18,000 litres per kilo of beef, does that mean that you extract those 18,000 litres to produce one kilo of meat, or this is – 95% of the water is staying in the system? And is it the same to talk about water footprint in a place like Rio Grande do Sol in Brazil than in Tunisia or in Morocco, or in Israel? No. So, now, that’s one part.

Where the cattle, the animal is not green, where it is mismanaged, when you – of course, when you cut the forests and you plant a pasture, but also, in an actual grassland where you overgraze, when you take more carbon than what you’re returning, when you’re degrading the soil, when your soil organic carbon is going down, that’s not green. But again, the – one of the points that I tried to make in my first intervention is not all the production systems are the same and some are sustainable, including the ones that have cattle.

Bernice Lee

Thank you very much, Walter. I think the it depends answer is an excellent, but also a complicated one for someone like Luiz Amaral, who has this – in some ways, translates a lot of context dependency into a system, such as, you know, SBTi, which obviously, have to pull all these con – if you accept the context, let’s just say, and we have a question that was questioning whether or not context matters in some ways. And so, in some ways, Luiz, your job is to help us pull together all of these contextual elements, which of course, have been important, in order to be comparable, so that there are either – in the audience, different finance actors and others, who all have to make sense of these, you know, these complexities around how do we really measure, for example, sustainability in terms of location? I mean, our Professor, Tim Benton, here, teaches me every day, “It depends,” basically. Luiz, why don’t I come to you?

Luiz Amaral

Thanks. Yeah, thanks for that question, yeah. I’ll make just three quick points based on the questions that I heard. Well, the first one was does it matter if one company’s doing? The second one was, what is the role of the government? And the third one, what is the potential impact of a company action on actually delivering the diff – the outcomes that you want?

So, the first one, the basis of what we try to do is that every company – if ev – the science-based approach is if every company were to do what they need to do, we will solve the issue. So, I’m the first one to recognise that we need everyone onboard, right? But we’re trying to define what is the fair share that each company needs to do and it’s within its responsibilities? That’s the first thing. So – but I’m for – the first one to recognise that that is not enough.

Then it brings to the second point, which is the role of governments. I joke around with my team, but it’s true that my dream is that we become irrelevant in a few years, SBTi, because we only exist to tackle a market failure, because governments haven’t really do their job, so we’re here to, kind of, facilitate that. But we do need regulation, definitely, and I think one of the important roles of folks that take the lead is that they show the way, and they increase the cost of inaction by their peers, and they increase the cost of inaction by policymakers, by demonstrating that it can be done. We see, again, as I mentioned, with the growth – exponential growth of companies taking ambitions, actions, that governments are starting to feel more comfortable that eventually, it can follow up with regulation. We raise the floor – the bar so governments can raise the floor.

But we – and then, the final point that I wanted to make was on the one making – that even one actor can help change the game. When it comes to difference – and now I’m taking a little bit of my SBTi hat and putting back my old Brazilian food and agriculture specialist hat, money matters, and one of the key reasons of deforestation in the country is the expectation of increased value added of the land. Somebody – folks go out there in the forests because they expect in two/three/five years’ time that land is going to value more, and I’ve worked in a bank, and I remember seeing cases in which the business plan did not stick together if you did not incorporate the increased value of land. We need to change that incentive-disincentive structure, and one way of doing that, saying if you’re not buying from that land anymore, it means that the value of that land is not going to increase as much as they – you thought it would if you are not financing that land. So, even one actor can have marginal impacts, which have changes to the perceptions and expectations of economic returns on that plan.

Bernice Lee

Thank you, Luiz. I also note that you avoided my question, which is how do you pull together apples and oranges? But we can come to this later. I noted that you avoided my question to you. Izabella, would you like to contribute? And then, we’ll take more questions, as well. Izabella, please, your thoughts.

Izabella Teixeira

Oh, thank you. I think that I’d like to highlight two or three points here, trying to answer or to comment, or additional comments, considering the answers here. First of all, I’d like to say it, in Brazil used to have a robust bilateral co-operation. It’s very important for the unit of Americas and you know how it is important today. But we need to share interests and it’s absolutely critical that we can identify on how to come together bilaterally, in my personal experience. We will – I managed this in person when you have Paris Agreement trajectory and you have bilateral agreements between Brazil and United States, and it was together with bilateral agreements with China and also with Germany and Norway, it was the basis of Braz – Paris Agreement negotiations.

So, I think that’s how important is don’t go into the unilateral decisions. It’s important to dialogue, it’s important to recognise your realities and how you can share not only commitments, but share values and ambitions. And why it is important not only short-term perspectives, but long-term perspectives, to avoid setbacks, okay? And I absolutely agree that United States must play real important role, together with Brazil, considering Americas, okay? South and North, that’s the ocean, Atlantic Oceans, and how we come in North and South and South and North, not as used in the past.

It’s important you consider what’s happened today when go with the climate finance, or global development finance in Bretton Woods Reform. And the role of United States we discussed with Brazil, how the South should be more engaged and more – well, how it should come into the new governance of the international financial world and how South must play – should play important role to address and try and locate funds for developing the world. The old model, of course, is over. It’s very important to understand the role of the Global South to address really robust solutions in climate finance and also development finance.

So, I think that United States used to come together with Brazil. Of course, we have difference, God bless us, but I believe that also in private sector and science, okay, we have a really a huge opportunity to dialogue, consult bilaterally, and to come together to international debate. Brazil used to play a neutral role. We have Diplomats here. This is very important about climate diplomacies, we used to be very important from the world and for us, in person, and this agenda is very important for us for soft power, the expression of soft power. And I think that even some Brazilian, they understand that the world is – comes something from Miami to New York, but we believe that we should come together and closer than we used to be in the past.

But for this it’s also – in my personal opinion, the critical issue that must address is how we can have our democracy preserved for the both sides, okay? And you know the – what’s happening in your country, considering the Trump years, when what’s happening in my country is Bolsonaro years. We need to avoid this. I recommend, well, to you, okay, avoid this.

My second point, very quickly. I think that when you go to this debate about development of the West and world development, it’s very important two or three things. First of all, let’s avoid fake greens, okay? Information in…

Bernice Lee

Sorry, fake?

Izabella Teixeira

Fake greens, okay. We have – in this century, we have – since the beginning, you have crisis, okay? You have the second 11 and you have the financial crisis, May 2006, seven and eight. You have pandemic and now you have the war, okay, and have together democracy crisis. It’s very important to observe the dynamics of this century. So, an infodemic is part of this crisis. So, we need to tackle, okay, to go against fake greens and data and information, because this is a digital world. These centuries are the convergence of three ages: climate, digital and technological world and bio age that is emerging, how to grow with nature. It’s not how to hug trees, okay? It’s easy to hug trees, okay, and it’s so easy, but it’s more than this.

So, I think that’s very important that you need to move from fake green wishing and green doing. Everyone’s – the one – “I want to be green,” but until now, what I know is – I can recognise is that the dollar greens are more important, okay? So, we need to change the things to understand that the new generation, and that’s why Marcelle is so important. She has 20 years. She’s 20-years-old. This is really a crime, environmental crime for me, okay, but 20-years-old. Yesterday I talk with her about 2001 and about China and then China came into a World and – World Trade Organization, and she said, “I was not born.” I was so upset, okay? Hmmm, it’s impossible.

But look, how fantastic, these are new generations come here to understand what’s happened and in the future, the next ten years, she will be absolutely responsible to drive the solutions. So, what it is, we need a new language. We need a new way to dialogue. We need a new way not to impose things. We need to build things based on reality and make sure that we can address solutions, considering the difficults of the countries or the societies around the world.

And finally, for this, we need to share values and share interests, okay? And sometimes it’s very difficult to have unilateral decisions and nobody knows about the costs to change, okay? What’s happened here in some countries, okay, you have probably consequence in the future when you go in a country like Brazil, that you have – you are able to pay for this. I can sell here one tonne of soil without deforestation. We have to pay additionally $30 per tonne. Are you prepared to do this now, about the inflation that you haven’t discounted, for example, about your jobs, about your economic growth, are you prepared to this? Oh, let’s discuss how we can do this and share our objectives and share our dreams and our values. It is important, not only to come together, but to avoid setbacks in the future and this is very important, okay? We cannot have examples. We need to reveal things.

And finally, I think that when you go into governments, and your question’s very interesting, okay? Because I’m not part of the government, God bless me, okay? I was on the bus, okay? But what I’m saying is that also we need to change the way – that relationship between society and governments in the States, okay? We need to come together to make sure it’s be co-responsible. This is something really new with Paris Agreement, to have a chapter fully dedicated to non-state actors and co-responsibilities, how to manage this. How we should come to the governments, for example, here? What is the model, regulatory model, demands as [inaudible – 71:35]? The new narrative that will emerge from public policy and National Congress, how they should comes together with us, okay?

So, I think that it’s important to prepare things and be co-responsible, but not only it comes to Brazilia. “This is my proposal, bye, bye, you cannot put this in practice.” “Here give it.” No, if we have democracy, you have to go to National Congress. It is very important to go to parliaments, so the centre diversity of society and the understanding of the challenge.

And my last, last comment, God, this is very important, nobody probably pay attention to this. This is an agenda, climate change, geopolitics, Ukraine War, everything that we mentioned here, it is not part of the political imaginary of the societies in developing world. They were looking forward to address how we can manage jobs, how we can manage hunger, how we can have the social inequality, how go against racism, etc., etc. It’s very important that this agenda come down the ground, on the ground, and make sure that Tonys, Harrys and Marys, they are part of the solutions, and this is our responsibility to the couple of things, and hit couple of things in such a way that people may come together based on solutions. So, let’s do this together and I invite you to come to Brazil to drink caiprinha, low carbon caiprinha, I promise, okay, and organic ones.

Member

Caprinha, yes.

Izabella Teixeira

Ah [mother tongue].

Member

Yes, hmmm hmm.

Izabella Teixeira

[Mother tongue].

Member

Oh, yes.

Izabella Teixeira

[Mother tongue].

Member

Ah.

Izabella Teixeira

Do you like it?

Member

Si, bravo, very good.

Izabella Teixeira

Right, oh, let’s drink it.

Bernice Lee

Oh, on that invitation, I’d like to take more questions from the room. I mean, again, I just looked through all the questions again and I just want to reassure everybody that the questions will be seen by all the panellists. It’s not just me, and then – so, it’s a more specific question which applies, you know, of which I may pick up a few. But before, I want to just take a few more questions from the room, if I may, because…

Member

This side.

Bernice Lee

Yeah, there’s one at the front, definitely, but are there others in the back of the room? Just this one at the front, please.

Izabella Teixeira

Just this, here.

Bernice Lee

Oh, two at the front, even.

Member

Oh, and [inaudible – 73:30].

Bernice Lee

Oh, okay.

Walter Baethgen

Here.

Izabella Teixeira

Isn’t there somebody else in the front with a question?

Bernice Lee

Yeah, there are, so please.

Izabella Teixeira

Please, go ahead. You have the floor.

Member

Thank you. I don’t have a question myself. I would just like to ask Paulo, perhaps, to answer his question with regards to…

Walter Baethgen

About – yes.

Member

…technology. This is something we shouldn’t miss, I think. Thank you.

Paulo Pianez

Yeah.

Hilde Rapp

Yes, well, I was going to ask the same question. I’m Hilde Rapp, and [mother tongue], but we – you talked about the sustainability.

Bernice Lee

Can you introduce yourselves, please? Sorry.

Hilde Rapp

Oh, sorry, I did, I thought.

Bernice Lee

Oh, sorry.

Hilde Rapp

I’ll do it again.

Bernice Lee

Yes, thank you.

Hilde Rapp

Hilde Rapp, Centre for International Peacebuilding, and many thanks, [mother tongue]. And I wanted to also ask about science, because obviously, you talked about different ecosystems at different times in history. But I think what you’re doing is actually intervening in an ecosystem now in a way that you haven’t spelt out, and I think perhaps you might want to. I was thinking that you might be using biochar, you might be using additives to your cows’ food that produces methane, you might be doing all sorts of exciting things that are part of the circular economy, that we tend to champion in Chatham House.

And I thought you, with your expertise in government, might lean on governments and say, “How about financing and injecting money into, kind of, sustainable circular economy?” not just the, kind of, regulatory tracing and all that was, kind of, very important governance issues. That also just simply injecting money through government banks into the ground, into the – oh, gosh, into the production process itself.

Bernice Lee

Yeah, join the subsidies race everywhere. There’s another question…

Hilde Rapp

Well, more lending…

Bernice Lee

…there.

Hilde Rapp

…involved.

Bernice Lee

Thank you, and let’s take one more question as well, please, also.

Jonathan Singh

Hi, thank you. Jonathan Singh, Chatham House member. You’ve bo – we’ve heard a bit of a critique of a overly Global North focused approach to different areas of the discussion today, but I wonder if each of you, in your respective areas of business, academia and government, could enlighten us on what mechanisms of co-operation you’re engaged in within the Global South in environmental processes, review and also within food and agriculture systems? So, what methods of co-operation do you have with other major partners in the Global South?

Bernice Lee

Right. Well, that actually is a question that I would’ve asked to wrap, to be honest, so I’m grateful for the question. Shall we start from Paulo…

Paulo Pianez

Yeah.

Bernice Lee

…Walter, Izabella and Luiz?

Paulo Pianez

Yes, technology perspective. So, is – it is not so easy to talk about the technology that we are using right now to trace the cattle, but it is important to – there are two ways, or main ways, to trace the cattle production. The first one, and the conventional one, is to have ear tags or ship to trace the cattle production in an individual – animal individual way. To do that it is important to have money and time to do that. It is possible, we have this model in Dubai, as well as we have the same model implemented in Australia, for example. And, in my perspective, we have to do this in Brazil, as well.

But on the other hand, we have other ways to trace the cattle, not in individual way, but we can control the cattle race along the supply chain. What we are doing right now is a traceability system or a control of the origin of the animals since the birth to the slaughter, using gel referencing and gel monitoring system, in which we cross information from the official entity in Brazil responsible for the maps and the control of deforestation in the presence of native vegetation, and then we can cross the image every year, in each purchase, cattle purchase that we have. And every day we control about 5,000 deals every day, every day. We controls about 29 million actors every day. The area is the same of the area of UK.

So, to do this, we need to know the perimeters of each farm that we have in our supply chain, since – the farms, the indirect farms, or indirect suppliers, and to the direct suppliers. That what we are doing right now is to have the claritory – the informations from our direct suppliers and then we have the informations on the direct suppliers of our direct suppliers, then the indirect suppliers and then, and then, and then. With this, we can, every day or every – in each purchase, we can cross these informations and then, we have the informations if there is deforestation, if the production is in a conservation unit, if the productions is in a indigenous area. So, with this, we can control the whole supply chain.

In this model it is possible to do that in a country level and we can make this system a little bit more huge if you have the informations about some official datas in Brazil, as GTA, the movement permission, the animal movement permission, associated with the Rural and the Environmental Registry, that’s what we are doing right now.

Bernice Lee

There is another question online about the loopholes in, you know, the Rural Environmental Registry, the CAR and also the GTA as well, why haven’t you done it? So, there’s a lot of questions specifically on those for you, but also online, if I may bring a couple of more questions from online, one we didn’t really touch. We mainly touched on the environment, but we didn’t really touch, for example, AMR, antimicrobial resistance, in terms of, obviously, livestock farming, and I just want to keep repeating that there are lots of questions online, which is, basically, based on, how could you? And, also, more importantly, why are you increasing production? Why are you not reducing, because that’s what we heard, we – many people need to do? So, I just want to reinforce that a lot of questions kept coming in online, which are on those. But on that – on this – on the question around closing loopholes around CAR and GTA, let’s just say, perhaps a little bit on that before both.

Paulo Pianez

So, that’s – the best way to do that, I invite all of you to know, or to know in a real-time online, how the system that we use works. But the best way that Brazil has right now to put in place a traceability system would be a system based on GTA. GTA is the movement – the guide for animals. With this, every movement that the animals – that cattle has in Brazil, we have the information about the farms or the territories in which the animals is, the – along the whole time that the animal birth until the slaughtering phase.

So, the idea is to make this datas available for everybody. With this, we can have two very important points. First one, it is possible to put in place a very strong traceability system in Brazil. On the other hand, we can have transparence about where is the cattle, where are the cattle production in Brazil? So, that’s why we believe that the best way to do that, and Marfrig has this point, GTA would be available for everybody.

Bernice Lee

So, you’ll roll them out. Now – so, I mean, we’re, sort of, gently coming to the last ten minutes, so I’d like to, sort of, encourage you to think about wrapping, as well, as you think through the questions. So, a couple of questions still hanging about if – we’ve – I think we’ve done technology, so we – I’m happy with that. Questions around how do you encourage South-South co-operation on some of these question, and I also think the question about antimicrobial resistance, the role of livestock. There’s a question here, which is really just for Marfrig, which is, well, “How much of it’s from Greenpeace?” I think they’re asking you, how much of your profits have been invested back in restoring and making up for, obviously, all dimensions that you might have cost, how much of it, how much of percentage and profit? These are, sort of, increasingly questions that is being asked of all corporations, in some ways.

And I will also let you all have a chance to – I mean, I wasn’t being particularly strict today. I wasn’t holding on – I don’t quite know whether you’re ignoring the question I want you to answer sometimes, but I would give you a chance to answer all the bits that you – all the things you want to say that you felt that you couldn’t, really. And you have about one minute, maybe like 45 seconds or one minute each, unless we have more questions here. So, we can start from perhaps Luiz on the screen and then, we’ll go from, then, Paulo, then Walter and Izabella, how about that, in that order, yeah?

Luiz, why don’t you, sort of, think through all the questions you’ve heard today. A lot of it is really about what a sectoral level transformation look like, really. You – it’s good to hear leadership from a company, but at the same time, really translated up into sectoral level, but also, global level action is a different thing. And SBTi has a very specific role, I think, in helping us deliver that. Why don’t you then, think of your concluding remarks in that context, please.

Luiz Amaral

Hmmm, fantastic wording, and I thought I had answered your question last time, so I’ll try to re-emphasise that, which was the point A that I had on the press question. Number one, definition, a common definition of success. If that success is not standardised and everybody understands what it is and it’s transparent, it becomes a storytelling competition, and that’s what SBTi does. It defines on a very standardised way, ways to compare apples with apples, oranges with oranges, so folks can see through and compare that in a standardised definition of success. And therefore, folks can also demonstrate their progress towards that very well standardised weight of success. That’s the point one.

And the second one that I said is that for us, that definition of success takes into the consideration the carbon budget and the systematic transformations there – that happen across the world. That’s why a definition of a standard for a sector takes a year, or even more, to get to there, and the – I’m not the Scien – the Climate Scientist myself, but if I could summarise what it is, is you look what are the emissions that this sector can have ten/20/30 years in the future, according to the Global Carbon Budgets? And then you just do the reverse engineering and say, “Well, here’s the pathway and needs to happen.”

So, that’s how we bring this transformation, finally recognising that we need everybody onboard if we are to meet – do that. We, as a standard setter, cannot do everything ourselves. We define what the path is. We help the leaders to, kind of, open up that path with the hope that they can bring on the – their peers and with a goods made hope that then, governments can really follow-up, because that’s what we need to really bring that for everybody everywhere. But will we eve – we will continue to be the monitoring of what good looks like aligned with – in a standardised way, aligned with what the climate model tol – tells us.

Bernice Lee

Great, very helpful. I’m just regretting asking you to go first, ‘cause I think that would’ve been quite a good last comment, actually. Walter, I mean, you heard a lot of questions today about, obviously, not just science, but also some of the contested nature of it.

Walter Baethgen

Yeah, yeah.

Bernice Lee

And how hard it is in some ways, despite the best efforts of Luiz and others to try and help us aggregate them. So, I, sort of, thought what are your thoughts in terms of how we move forward given that the contestation over some of these fundamental questions aren’t really going to go away?

Walter Baethgen

So, it has a lot to do with what Luiz just mentioned. It is a common vision of success, well, what is a common vision of a sustainable subsistence, and how do you measure that? How do you measure sustainability? How do you know you’re not being greenwashed, or how do you know you are really certifying something that is sustainable? And the way to do it now, I’m telling you now, it’s – we’re starting an activity with Scientists from US, New Zealand, Australia, Uruguay, Brazil, Argentina, and what we’re going to do is, okay, how – what is the set of indicators, not just carbon, you know, yes, greenhouse gases, but also impact on biodiversity, water quality, water quantity, animal welfare, food safety? What are indicators that are scientifically robust, so that first, farmers can use to measure their own production, the sustainability of their production system? But also, that private companies can then say, “Okay, this beef that I am buying from this farmer has a – some kind of seal that is backed by good science, where you measure all these different dimensions of sustainability.”

And for that, you need co-operation between – like, this example that I was making is, this is like co-operation between universities and research centres from all these countries that are looking to the same goal and the goal is how do we measure, how do we define things in ways that are scientifically robust, but also that farmers can measure? Not something that you need to send a sample to Geneva, no. What can a farmer do to measure real sustainable practices? And it’s very common to agree – if we get an agreement with that, then we will really reduce the greenwashing, the thousands of consulting firms that are promising to measure sustainability and green stamps, you need good science, good, applied, robust science.

Bernice Lee

It’s also participatory, right, from what you’re saying, is the fact…

Walter Baethgen

Yeah.

Bernice Lee

…that you have to work together in a participatory way, so that you could trust what you…

Walter Baethgen

Exactly.

Bernice Lee

To come out on the other side is part of what you have.

Walter Baethgen

So – sorry, so that – and glad that you mentioned that bit. So, that effort is being done with farmers. So, what we’re doing is we’re proposing a lot of indicators. Now, prove – let’s try with farmers. So, what do you think? Yeah, we know it makes sense scientifically. Do you think it’s practical to measure? So, you’re right, it’s very – but difficult.

Bernice Lee

Paulo, would you like to build on this, as well? I mean, you’re aware a lot of questions are, obviously, about Marfrig as well, so if you want to, sort of, wrap up, as well, then I’ll go to Izabella last for maybe some others, Brazil and the world question and G20 as well. Paulo, so the questions around, obviously, you know, are you going to work towards reducing consumption, too, for example? And also, questions around AMR and other associated issues around livestock, but also questions around how do you really use your leadership in this to drive sectoral transformation, perhaps, and you know, can – what can you really help do, you know, given that you’re not the only one?

Paulo Pianez

Oh, I think that the main message, the main point here, when we are talking about livestock, it is not about – only about technology, only about a very important issue, how to keep the forest from a environmental perspective, for sure. But it is important to cap – to talk about the social perspective, as well. I think that all the regulations around the world is based on exclusion. All the regulation around the world doesn’t mention or doesn’t have any about how to support the production around the world. All the regulation, or all the actions around the world, don’t talk about how the countries could contribute with the development of the livestock production in Brazil around the worlds.

So, I believe that we have to have a new approach on that. We have to improve. We have to understand that in Amazon, for example, there are 30 million people living there. So, how to reconcile production, how to reconcile social issues with the cattle production, with the commodities production. So, that’s the real perspective that the countries around the world should be, that my point and that what we do, even in Marfrig. That’s our approach right now and we believe that’s the best way to do that.

Bernice Lee

Thank you very much. Izabella?

Izabella Teixeira

Oh, yes, I think that I have – I need an hour more, but…

Bernice Lee

Yeah, yeah, but you have…

Izabella Teixeira

…no problem.

Bernice Lee

Yeah, yeah, “You have an hour,” someone said here.

Izabella Teixeira

An hour, let’s relax. Two points. I think that, first of all, circular economy or circularity, the new economy, the new green economies, they’re absolutely important, but they should come together with the transition to understand the transformative processes. So, we cannot go into renewable world without dealing, for example, with miner – with strategic minerals. And all the new challenges of mining in the world is not necessarily – should not be basis in our experience in the past, for example. So, circulatory it’s absolutely critical to come into supply chains and to change the consumer behaviour. So we need to address demand, okay, and not only production, and this is very, very important.

And I think when going to put money, or inject money, we need to understand that the role of natural resource, efficient use to make sure that we can have better choice in short-term perspectives. With consumer, I absolute – consumption and consumer, they’re very important too, where you’re going to, coming to, etc., that you have part of the society result excess. It’s really hard to discuss efficiency. When you go into India, for example, it’s a – the Prime Minister used to say, “The energy transition in India means excess energy.” It’s different to, like, a country like Brazil, that have 8-7% of electric power mix, based on renewable energy, 8-7%, okay? So, it’s different. You have twen – the middle – the median in the world is around 22/23%, okay?

So, I think that’s the first point. It’s absolutely critical, but we need to understand how to promote the supply chains and how to make sure that step-by-step, you have the consumer engagement, and this makes sense for people. People – when explain this very well, people can take the right decision and avoid setbacks in the future, fir – the fir – very first second. We cannot forget that we are in the transition, looking forward to the rest transformation. Transition doesn’t mean that you need to buy time. Don’t have buy – time to be bought, I’m sorry, it’s over, okay?

And so, we are absolutely exposed, and I’m fully convinced, considering the Climate Scientists and other ones, and I’m Co-Chair of a scientific panel, United Nations, that we are absolutely exposed to the extreme events, and this would be very critical the next ten years or 20 years. It’s not only 1.5 Celsius degrees. This is something important, not necessarily strategic, to address considering how people would be exposed to climate change in short-term perspect. What it means, to convince people to be onboard and to change when this – we need to change that to really have an ambition to address our narrative, not based on tragedy. We need to convince people that we can share solutions, okay?

And unfortunately, all the signs that have today in the world is exactly direct to tragedies, okay? You have COVID, you have the war. It’s – for me, it’s impossible to think a war in Europe, really impossible, but it’s true, it’s happen after Glasgow conference, okay, it’s impressive. We came to Glasgow after pandemic, everyone’s so build – so happy, and you have the war. So, this is very important, to convince people that the engagement is not only based on technologies and political will, etc. We need to believe that we can do better than what we are doing today, okay? And for this, we need the really innovative relationship position and democracy and trust, okay? Solidarity is a new political or geopolitical concept that unfortunately, is a scarcity today, it’s a scarcity today.

And finally, I’d like to remember that I think that when you go into this new perspective of the world, I believe that we can do better that we’re doing today, okay? The past is very important to remember us, that was well enough, but to have really good solutions, you have this. You have – I remember 40 years ago when we start discussing this. But what I’m trying to highlight here is that we need to move beyond green wishing. You mentioned greenwashing. Greenwashing seems so easy to have – to address, but we’ll go with green wishing and green doing, people want to do, but nobody necessarily know how to do this, okay? And this is the way to convince people that a new process, step-by-step engagement, in person, regionally, so in your neighbourhood, to make sense that we’re not a part of the world. Is you are part of the new momentum of the global society of the world, that we need to come together, also to manage better adaptation and resilience.

And that’s why nature-based solution, bio age emergence, etc., this is not something that comes to think that this – like a fashion perspect – political perspect, no. Okay, this is really very important and really very challenging to make sure that we can grow, have to come out to grow with nature, okay, and this is the big challenge that we have today. And for this, we need to change our mindsets, considering our – the last, probably, 500 years of the development process in the world, that’s true.

Bernice Lee

Yes, thank you.

Izabella Teixeira

Thank you very much.

Bernice Lee

I mean, no, no, thank you so much. I mean, I was just, sort of, thinking that even though we may not all start from the same perspective here, I’m really grateful for the opportunity here, very comprehensive and thoughtful Brazilian perspective on a lot of these questions. But also reminding myself, as well, as I listen to you, Izabella, especially just now, and others, that no, we’re not in the moment of green wishing anymore, because you all – I think all of the things you are suggesting is that we – steps have been taken forward. They may not be enough, by the way, which it’s almost definitely not enough, but at the same time, we are in a world of trust but verify and that all these mechanisms that are being put forward are available for all to help verify. Because unless we are in a world where we’re putting a mechanism of this sort out in the world for the world to figure out, as well, whether they’re with you or not, perhaps we really don’t have a way forward together. Nut with that, I, of course, thank you all for your time…

Izabella Teixeira

No, just a minute.

Bernice Lee

…being here. I – okay.

Izabella Teixeira

I have got one more point.

Bernice Lee

Sorry, of course, please.

Izabella Teixeira

But one thing, the next two years will be very strategically, okay, for the Global South, mainly because of the role of Brazil and how Brazil will be on floor, on the stage, and will manage really important global agendas. This year you have Amazon Summit, okay, with all the countries Amazon basing. They are invited by the President Lula to come to Brazil and to propose innovative agenda to come together. So, this is a new format of the Global South. We’re inviting global leaders, etc., etc., but we cannot forget that to have regional interests in how – what is the new political regimen that should come consider economy and social inclusiveness, economic growth and social inclusiveness, also technological sharing perspectives? That how you can measure this agenda.

Next year Brazil will chair G20, okay, and someone ask about example of co-operations that we have now, G20 – two same things, G20 and G7 together, looking for, and part of this group, to address concrete solution to proposals to play as a bridge consider G7 and G20, and why it is important? Because we need innovative agenda, innovative political speech, to make sure that you must go beyond the leaders. So, site must become leader, okay, this is really different. And then next, by 2025, Brazil will host COP30…

Member

Yes.

Izabella Teixeira

…on climate change, and everyone’s – she’s so happy. Everyone believed, okay, this probably will happen in Amazonia. But look, this is Paris +10 conference, okay? And that’s why it’s very important our common dissent, looking to our friends from United States, how the countries are able to come together bilaterally, regionally and globally, to address this important agreement.

My feeling is that we need to understand what would be – how you can packed or repacked our common understanding considering the next ten years, from 2025/2035, okay, and this probably will be the last transition, based on the IPCC. Conservatively, we probably we can have 1.5 Celsius degree that we reach it around this. But this is not the problem. The problem is how we’ll be exposed to extreme events that is the case, how to like to come together and food production and food security and nutritional security absolutely critical for this. So, I invite you to come to Brazil. I invite you to work together with us as society. Chatham House will be there. I invite you to be ambitious and to ensure that you can come in a transformative perspect, political perspect, to make sure that society can come together. If the government have difficulty, the societies can come together. Let’s do it. Thank you.

Bernice Lee

Yeah, thank you. I [applause] – what a point to end up on [applause] a positive note of doability and you just reminded us on the last transformation, thanks for this. And with that, I would invite – let me thank all of you for participating in the event. Of course, thank all our amazing speakers, but also for the online participants, thank you very much, but you don’t have a drink waiting for you. For those in the room, there is a reception upstairs and we can continue the conversation for the good and the bad and definitely the, hopefully, perspective and the deliverable. So, with that, I thank – please join me in thanking all of yourself and also all our speakers as well, please, thank you [applause].