Amy Pope
Good morning, good afternoon, to all of you who are out there today. My name is Amy Pope. I am an Associate Fellow at the Chatham House, and I am very pleased to welcome you to an important discussion today on the US elections and the plans to manage an election during an incredibly difficult, really unprecedented time. This conversation today is going to take place with three Secretaries of State from different states in the United States and as many of you know, voting in the United States is not actually federal. The states have tremendous responsibility for managing voting, which means that voting practices can differ fairly dramatically from state-to-state. And although one would not necessarily understand it to be so, the decision about how to proceed is becoming increasingly partisan.
The questions about whether or not people should be lining up to vote, whether people should be able to access voting by mail, whether they need an excuse to do so, whether fear of contracting COVID is a sufficient enough excuse, all of those questions are on the table today. And that’s particularly worrisome because as we all know, this next election is going to be very hotly contested and one can imagine the scenario in which President Trump, if he were to lose, would suggest that there were voting irregularities. So, therefore, this group of panellists today has a tremendous amount of weight on their shoulders as they think about how to proceed in a way that is fair, that ensures the availability in access to voting that is guaranteed to American citizens.
Today’s webinar is going to examine the reasons for which voting methods have become a political debate in the United States. We’re going to look at the outlines on both sides. We’re going to look at the various causes for concern and start to pull out what are political or partisan issues and what are substantive issues and what are the possible ways to remedy some of these issues. And particularly, in the face of the need to maintain social distancing, how are states intending to cope with it? What are some of the options that are on the table? What communities are likely to be affected? And what do we think the impact it will – will it have on the elections?
We have a really amazing line-up. I’m particularly pleased that it’s an all-women panel today, and it’s very geographical diverse and it’s politically diverse. We have Secretary of State, Jocelyn Benson from Michigan. She’s the 43rd Secretary of State there. She is focused on making sure elections are secure and accessible. She’s written a book called State Secretaries of State: Guardians of the Democratic Process, which is the first major book on the role of the Secretary of State and enforcing campaign and election law.
We also have Secretary of State Katie Hobbs, who is from the state of Arizona. Secretary Hobbs first served in the Arizona House of Representatives and Arizona Senate as a minority leader before running for Secretary of State. She is also in a state that we all know is really struggling with the increase in the numbers of cases of COVID-19. We don’t know yet what that will look like in November, but it’s fair to say that Secretary Hobbs has that at the forefront of her mind.
And finally, we have Secretary of State Kym Wyman. She’s Washington’s 15th Secretary of State, first elected in 2012. She’s serving her second term and is only the second female Secretary of State in Washington’s history. She has one of the most diverse offices in state government. She’s received numerous awards and we’re very, very pleased to have her here today, especially because Washington state has had a long history of dealing with this issue.
So, in terms of presentation, we’re going to have first Secretary of State present. First, because Washington has such a long history. She can help lay the groundwork, put this all into context and then we’ll move to Secretary Hobbs from Arizona and then to Secretary Benson from Michigan. They’re each going to make their presentation and then we’ll open it up for Q&A. Please, type your questions in the chat-box. This event is on the record and it is recorded. So, please, keep that in mind, and we look forward to a very lively conversation. Thanks so much, Secretary Wyman.
Kym Wyman
Well, good morning. So, I am up here in Washington State and I think between Washington and Oregon we were really the pioneers in expanding absentee voting. Unfortunately, not that I’m competitive, Washington was really second behind Oregon for full disclosure. But we started the [inaudible – 06:52] Tech in our Vote by Mail participation in the early 1990s when our legislator allowed any voter to become a universal absentee voter and a permanent absentee voter. And by the mid-90s, counties like mine – at the time I used to work at a county level – were seeing 60% of our voters, who were choosing to vote by mail every election. And in our state, it came to a head in 2004 when we had the closest Governor’s race in the country’s history. And as we saw in the Bush v. Gore election of 2000, when that happens, you see all of the things that work and don’t work in an election, and what we found was, you can’t do two elections simultaneously and do both of them well. You can’t have a full-scale absentee ballot election alongside a full-scale poll side election, and in 2005, our legislation allowed counties to move to Vote by Mail, permanently and even then, it took our state five years to completely move to universal Vote by Mail.
And I think that that’s what is really important here, is that states are being asked to bring the system up in a very, very short compressed period of time. And that’s probably the thing that keeps me up at night most about watching this nationally, is that I know how long it took us and how difficult it took us – it was for us to move to Vote by Mail and the amount of resources that needed to be dedicated to that effort because you have to build in the compensating security controls to that incredible increase in access. And the harsh critics that we’re hearing today of Vote by Mail, are the same critics we’ve been facing in Washington State for nearly 27 years. The same arguments, the same concerns, and I think that that’s really the heart of what we have to do as election administrators, is build in that confidence that it’s a secure system.
I think that the challenge that we’re really facing here is the partisanship around elections. And I think that my biggest fear, going into the November election, is exactly what you touched on, but I would put it even a little more neutrally than you did, Amy, because I think that both sides right now cannot contemplate in any manner that they could lose. And that’s the bar that election administrators are facing, is that somebody is going to lose, and we have to convince the losing team that it was a fair election. And we have to also acknowledge on both sides that the concerns about voter suppression are real and they’re valid, and we have to address them. We have to address the concerns on the voter suppression side that they’re real and that we’re dealing with them and I think that’s where election administrators find themselves as we’re going into our primary elections and general election, that we’ve got to balance access and security. And I think that the more we do that, and we take the partisanship out of it, the more credible our election becomes and the more successful we’ll be in November. And, of course, the peaceful transition of power is really the goal, I think, all of us have.
Amy Pope
Thank you, Secretary Wyman. Secretary Hobbs, would you like to go next?
Katie Hobbs
Sure. So, hi, good morning. Thank you so much for having me today. I agree with my colleague, Secretary Wyman, on all the points she made in terms of this upcoming election, Vote by Mail, and the partisan debate that we’re sort of in the middle of here. We, in Arizona, have had no excuse absentee voting for decades, and we have a really proven track record of – that Vote by Mail is reliable and secure here in Arizona. Most of our voters vote by mail. It is still an opt-in system and we, early on, requested the legislative authority to be able to mail a ballot to every voter, regardless of if they’re currently on our permanent early voting list or not, and that’s not going to happen. So, what we’re doing is working across the state to ensure that every voter who doesn’t already get their ballot in the mail, knows that that’s an option. We’re also working to increase other early voting options, particularly in rural areas where Vote by Mail isn’t as accessible because they’re not as well served by the postal service.
But we do know that voting by mail is secure, and in normal circumstances, allows voters to fill out their ballot from the comfort of their home, and now, as we’re in a pandemic, it’s a safe way for voters to vote without having to be in a crowd of people, and it’s also a way to ensure safety of poll workers. Recruiting enough poll workers has been difficult in these current circumstances, and I think the real issue is, you know, whether voting is a right or a privilege. And I believe it’s a right and we have, as Secretaries of State, the responsibility to ensure that that right is available for every voter and that they don’t have to choose between their health and their – and that right to vote.
Amy Pope
Thanks very much. Secretary Benson, do you want to follow-on?
Jocelyn Benson
Yes. Hi, everyone. I’m Jocelyn Benson, the Secretary of State of Michigan. Thank you so much Chatham House for hosting this important conversation today because what we’re discussing really is about the bedrock of and the foundation of our elections and our entire system of government from the nation – from the national level all the way down to the local. And what you’re seeing this year is a real battle over what democracy is in our country and how to ensure, this time, with great uncertainty amidst a global pandemic, that we’re able to give citizens certainty and clarity as to how we’ll ensure their voices are heard.
So, I come at this, as was mentioned earlier, not really as a Politician of the Secretary of State of Michigan, but I’m really an academic. In the past, I actually was a Marshall Scholar at Oxford, and about 20 years ago, during the Bush v. Gore election, which was very contentious, very close, but feels, you know, very simpatico with your country because of the time that I spent there and grateful for that opportunity. But back then as of now, have been focused on, you know, what does the data say about the best way to run elections in the country and in Michigan? And how do we implement solutions based on data? Which I originally thought would be a logical approach to running elections, and I believe it’s the right approach, as illustrated by the comments of my colleagues. But it’s been, you know, quite disappointing to see at this moment all of that caught up in this hyper-partisan rhetoric and arguments that aren’t based on data or history or any information that non-partisan academics would take to make arguments, but just questions or concerns about who will win or lose an election. And I think we should be running elections based on how to make sure people can vote and that their votes can be counted securely, as opposed to any other predetermined outcome or goal.
So, all that said, in Michigan, we’re in a unique situation because in 2018, voters around the state voted overwhelmingly to amend our State Constitution, to create a system where citizens will have a right to vote by mail. They changed a lot of other things about our voting system and everything that they put in, things like automatic voter registration, the ability to be registered to vote when you get your driver’s license automatically, unless you opt out, the ability to register to vote up to and on election day. All of those policies, like Vote by Mail having been in place, as Secretary Wyman said, in many states around the country, in some cases for decades. So, what I was able to do quite quickly is implement a lot of these changes in about 18 months, based on the experiences and successes and best practices of my colleagues around the country, which I was already familiar with.
So, we brought former Secretaries of State and others to Michigan to advise us on building out this process, and one of the things that we were very clearly advised, especially this year, was to mail every registered voter in our state an application to request to Vote by Mail. As a voter education tool, coming from the Secretary of State that would help advise and inform all citizens equally of how to vote by mail, particularly during a pandemic, when many people will choose to, and particularly at this moment in Michigan, when it’s a new right for our citizens. That, of course, has been met with significant amount of partisan-based attacks, including by the President himself who said what I was doing was rogue and wasn’t something that should happen when, of course, the data and all the best practices suggest and that’s exactly what we need to be doing to inform voters about our – about their rights.
So, it’s just an example of the – also, the way in which we’re all operating right now, as we, as Secretaries of State, are trying to guard the democratic process, while also taking a lot of incoming attacks that are designed not just to, you know, impact our ability to do our jobs, but really, sow seeds of doubt in the elections themselves, and this gets back to what Secretary Wyman said that, you know, in my view, we have three main jobs this year as Secretaries of State. One to build an infrastructure, where every voter feels they can safely exercise their right to vote, if they choose to do so, whether it’s by mail or in person or early or on election day. Two is to educate voters about those choices, to make sure they know about the array of choices and can have confidence that whatever choice they make to cast their ballot will be one in which their vote will be counted, and their voice will be heard. But finally, we all have to counter this battle of misinformation that’s flowing into our states, particularly states like Michigan and Arizona that will have a significant influence on the outcome of the election, that are trying to sew those seeds of doubt in the minds of our electorate about the confidence of our elections process. And that’s really challenging to have to basically build out a system, educate voters about it, and also counter all of these attacks that are designed to, kind of, effect voters’ faith in the system. So, it’s certainly a challenge that we’re all up for, but it’s a real one, and we need everyone helping to – you know, through forms like this and others, spread the truth, the real information about what is going to happen this year to make our democracy work. And let the Politicians fight it out over who can get what vote, but just let us make sure that we’re building the infrastructure and educating voters about ways to ensure their vote, however they choose to cast it, is heard.
Amy Pope
Thank you all. That’s really interesting feedback. I actually hear a lot of similarities between your comments, which just brings me to the question of why has this one become so partisan? What is really at the heart of the issue? And, you know, it looks, for example, that the evidence suggests that there isn’t a meaningful distinction, in terms of impact on democratic or republican voters voting. So, what do you think is at the heart of it and how would – how will you manage persuading people that this is a legitimate way forward? Secretary Benson go ahead.
Jocelyn Benson
Okay. I wasn’t sure if you were waiting me to be called on. I think the thing that I – I mean, it’s really, first, I would say, challenging and disheartening to have to fight these battles at a moment when our country is fighting and our world is fighting so many other battles right now, health-wise, economically, and yet we have the data and the information to show that, as I mentioned, it’s about giving voters choices and getting the resources to implement those choices. So, the fact that we have to fight these partisan battles is very disheartening. In my view though, what I tell my team and what I tell everyone is that the truth is on our side. It’s just about getting it out there and voters’ experiences will continue to illustrate that truth. We had the benefit of the State of Washington, and for two decades has implemented a Vote by Mail system successfully, with zero to no examples of fraud. Oregon and other states as well, she mentioned.
So, I think, the more we can get through trusted voices information out to our voters to proactively educate them about their choices, but also, to simply tell them the truth through facts and data and years of time tested examples of how the system actually works, we’ll have a chance at getting through to the vast majority of voters in our country and ensuring that they can have faith in our system. So, that’s the work we do now and then, after election day as well, which is just a few months away, we’re also all going to have to work to come together and continue to tell this story about the good examples, the heroes of democracy in a way, that we’ve seen this year, to ensure that our system stays intact and that voters continue to have faith in it. So, it requires more work than ever before and more voices than ever before. A lot of us, and myself included, have partnered with sports athletes and other people with platforms, who are trusted in our communities, to cut through the rhetoric and also educate voters about their rights this year. So, more voices and more facts and more data, I think, are one of their ways too getting close to a resolution.
Amy Pope
What about you, Secretary Hobbs, how would you respond to the concerns that are being expressed and what’s really behind, do you think, behind some of the anti-Vote by Mail or other initiatives?
Katie Hobbs
Yeah. Well, I think that it’s already been said. You know, we know that folks are going to attempt to undermine the integrity of the election to further their own agenda and we’re in a position to fight against that. I think that our systems are very open and transparent and there’s always an opportunity for the public to come in and see the process. Maybe, now, there’s a little bit more restriction around that just because of health concerns, but folks can go into their county elections’ office and see the process that the ballots go through, in terms of when they’re received in the mail. They can watch either live or via camera the tabulation process and voters themselves are able to track their ballots. When they return their ballot, they’re able to find out if that ballot was received and when it’s counted and so, there’s checks and balances in the system all the way.
And I think that there’s this idea that folks want to show that mailing ballots are treated differently than other ballots and that we’re not checking ID of voters or anything like that, and that is just absolutely not the case. The same laws, in terms of how we handle and transport and store and everything with ballots applies to ballots no matter what and so, there is security and transparency built into the process all the way. And I think, as Secretary Benson mentioned, it’s up to us to ensure that we’re giving the public this information. And we’re working with election officials across the state to – I think we’re all on the same page about this, that our job is to uphold the integrity of the election and ensure that everybody has access to exercise their right to vote and that’s what we’re really focused on.
Amy Pope
That’s fantastic. Secretary Wyman, I’d like to hear your point of view and also, I’d love to hear you weigh in on the subject of, it’s difficult to have both a Vote by Mail and voting at the polls running at the same time and just have you opine a little bit about the logistics of this.
Kym Wyman
Oh, absolutely. I think I will dovetail into the wonderful comments that both my colleagues have already made, that both sides are posturing. Make no mistake, I think that both the left and the right are trying to take a very highbrow position that we’re on the side of history and all of that when, in fact, it’s more out of fear. I think what we’ve seen here in Washington and my experience is that Republicans in my state, and I can speak to this because I am a Republican, just are certain that, you know, this is somehow giving the Democrats an advantage. And I think you could draw that conclusion because we certainly have been a blue-leaning state for my entire political career, which is really challenging. But that if you dig down to that next layer, what it really comes down to is that, at least in my state, the Democratic Party has a much better ‘get out the vote effort’ and machine than the Republicans do. It really is, kind of, that simple, and I think, in our state, it has a lot to do with the connection with our unions, our labour unions, and in public sector unions here in Washington. They’re very organised and they support the Democratic Party and I think that it’s more out of that frustration than any, kind of, real sense of voter fraud. Although, I, you know, certainly have had a number of people in my party make that accusation and then, when we actually drilldown and walk through it, they do, kind of, go, “Oh, okay. I see your point.”
But I would also counter with, ‘cause I like to keep it bipartisan, you know, just a couple of weeks ago I had an organisation accuse me of voter suppression in a way that did entirely liken it to, you know Jim-Crow era laws and it was on an initiative gathering effort to the point that they said – they made a lot of interesting references, let’s put it this way, all unfounded. But again, it was just to undermine the fact that their initiative didn’t have enough signatures. And I think that when political parties and partisans start operating from that place of fear – you know, the reality, in Washington and Arizona right now, is we have a primary coming up soon. Our ballots go out next week and I think you suddenly see candidates realising the prospect of being able to lose and it can’t possibly be them. It has to be something else, and I think, you know, making light of it a little, but that’s the cold hard reality is that panic and fear, it has to be something other than the candidate isn’t ready or working hard enough. And so, you know, I think what you’re hearing though is that we, as election officials, are building out a security that needs to be in place and that transparency that needs to be there to inspire confidence. And as I’m talking, I can’t remember what exactly you just asked me to talk about, so there was one other part of that question.
Amy Pope
Yeah, no, no, that’s great. It was about the – you said it’s difficult to run two kinds of elections at once, right? So, the logistics of – and especially when we’re in July and we’re looking at November elections.
Kym Wyman
But the biggest challenge, and I think where most seats are going to land is, there’s no pure system. You’re not completely at the polling place any longer or completely by mail. There all going to be variations of hybrid voting systems. And what I mean by that is, even here in Washington where we send every ballot – every voter a ballot, I’m anticipating at least 1% of our voters are going to show up in person to vote, to either get a replacement ballot or to use an assistive device or to get a ballot and register to vote for the first time. So, this means we have to plan, and my state, we’re having 45,000 people potentially come in on election day across our state. Do we have the facilities available? Do we have the social distancing, the PPE available? All of the same things that every state in this nation is working through, we have to have ready, and the problem or the challenge with it is the unknown.
Like I said, I’m going based on some of our past elections that 1 to 2% of our population voted in person, and I think you have to anticipate that’s going to happen on election day. The same could be said in reverse for those states that are spending up absentee voting, how many of the people that didn’t request an absentee ballot or fill that form out correctly, you know, are going to show up on election day? It’s an unknown and that unknown variable is what swamps polling places, swamps early voting centres or election day voting centres. And I think that that’s the part that’s missed on people of this transition to a hybrid model, is that we were really good at planning on the models we had before.
So, we knew what the field of voters was usually 30 days before election day. Now – and you had a polling book and you knew, when the person came in, “Oh, I’m sorry Secretary Hobbs, you’re not in the – you’re not on the list. We can’t give you a ballot. We’ll give you a provisional ballot.” And we had this very nice neat organised system, where we could divide up the polling places and we could send voters to a specific location. We’ve changed that in the last 20 years across the board, both in the absentee world and in the in-person experience. We give voters a lot of flexibility, which is great, the problem is, is it makes it very hard to plan and so, I think that that’s what you’re seeing across the country.
Amy Pope
That’s very helpful. I invite the panellists, I mean, those who are listening in to submit your questions and I’ll ask them of the panellists. But before we do that, I’d like to ask what I think is the million-dollar question, which is, when do we think a decis – we’ll have a decision, right? So, we have the situation where we don’t know who will be able to vote in-person on the day, we’re going to be trying out new systems in some cases and certainly dealing with votes that are coming in by mail and change it. Do you anticipate we’ll know who is the President-elect on election day?
Jocelyn Benson
No. Secretary…
Kym Wyman
Okay, I’ll believe it. I’ll just go – I’ll take that, please.
Jocelyn Benson
Go ahead, please, yeah.
Kym Wyman
Of the group, I think I have the most experience on this one. No, absolutely not. In fact, I think it will be late November, potentially, before we know who the next President will be, and I say that because of the experience we’ve had here in Washington. We have 4.5 million registered voters to give you scope and scale of the size of our state, and we get half of our ballots in election week. I’m anticipating 90% turnout. So, you start doing the math, over two million ballots are going to come in my state on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday because we have a postmark requirement for the cut off for elections, and that is a throughput issue. It is something that our counties work on to try and be as efficient and effective as possible. but the reality is. voters wait ‘til the last minute to cast their ballots and most of them, you know, do it over the weekend and turn them in on Monday or Tuesday. So, you have to prepare for that. There’s physically no way for us to have all of our ballots in place and then, of those ballots that come in election week, a third come in on Monday, a third come in on Tuesday, and about a third come in on Wednesday. So, it is crushing volume in a Presidential big year like this, especially one that has this much interest, and I think you’re going to see that across the country.
And I know, I’m anxious to hear Secretary Benson’s commentary because Michigan is one of those states I was worried about in their primary because of their cut-off and how do you do that? Do you – how many days do you have to certify? Here in Washington, we’ll have 21 days to certify our election after election day in November, and I think even that varies state-to-state. So, we have to start building in that expectation right now, and I know the President has already taken this to Twitter, has already planted the seeds of doubt that clearly, if we have later results there’s something going on. No, it’s called counting ballots. It is exactly what we should be doing ‘cause what’s most important is making sure it’s accurate and making sure that every eligible vote is tallied. And if we don’t do that, we are doing a disservice to the American public, and this is why we have to get the word out that it is going to take the majority of the month of November to count all those ballots.
Amy Pope
Secretary Benson, Michigan’s going to contest it, everyone is focused on Michigan. How does it play up there?
Jocelyn Benson
Well, we’re anticipating – I mean, in the past, we have systems that have to count at most a little over one million ballots sent through the mail by election evening. That’s what we’ve handled in the past. That’s what we handled in our March Presidential primary. So, we’re anticipating this year, we’ll get at least two million people voting from home, if not three million of our anticipated five million that we’re planning – that we’re expecting will turn out this November. So, that means as many as three times as many people maybe voting by mail this year, which means we’ll need three much – three times as much resources: people capacity, machines, and time to get the job done. Now, I’m not anticipating that’s going to take weeks. I’m anticipating it will take days, but it certainly means we won’t have the results of Michigan’s elections shortly after the polls close on Tuesday in November. It may take the rest of the week and that’s what we’re planning on and that’s what – we’ve placed more machines, more people, we’ve asked for more time.
Right now, the law says in Michigan we can’t even begin opening ballots sent through the mail until election day itself, so it’s going to take several days. But to me, the most important thing is accuracy and that we don’t get too out in front of any arguments of who’s winning, who’s losing, before we have counted all the ballots and for that reason, I’m very much focused on two things. One, the space between when the polls close and when we announce the results, and how we generate positive stories and accurate content during that moment because we know other people are going to be generating negative stories and negative content and sowing seeds of doubt about the sanctity of the process.
So, how do we, you know, show the count transparently? Number one, so that people can see that we’re simply just as Secretary Wyman said, counting the ballots, but also continue to tell the real success stories that we know will happen, not just in Michigan, but around the country of thousands, millions of people voting by mail for the first time, and in the midst of a pandemic, where there is so much uncertainty and challenges right now. So, that to me is our focus. But the second thing that’s our focus as well is making sure as many people as possible know to send their ballots in early and to complete them correctly.
I’m similarly just as concerned about the fact that if we have three times as many people voting by mail, then ever before in our state. You have at least one million of that two million people voting by mail for the first time -and what that means is, when you vote in-person, you can fill out your ballot and if you make a mistake, the machine won’t count it, and you find out right at the polling place when you put your ballot through the machine. It spits it out and says, “Oh, you circled the name, instead of doing this.” Or, “We can’t read your vote for this.” Or, “You put – you chose two people instead of one in this category.” And we give the voter the ability to correct their error right then and there. You don’t have that feedback loop when you’re voting by mail and someone could make a mistake on their ballot and send it in, and then we’re not able to count it or correct it on election day, and that leads, potentially, to a percentage of ballots that can’t be counted or read by the machines and votes that may go uncounted. That to me is one of my biggest concerns.
We’re working now to educate all voters on how to correctly complete their ballots, so that it doesn’t happen. But that to me is, you know, the type of thing that we’re doing now to prepare and the type of thing that I’m most concerned about more than the rhetoric and all the chatter that’s going to happen. Really, how do we make sure that everyone who’s counting – voting through the mail for the first time, in particular, has their votes counted and has them counted accurately.
Amy Pope
It could make the hanging chat seem like…
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah.
Amy Pope
Yeah.
Jocelyn Benson
Exactly.
Amy Pope
Oh, I don’t envy you guys. This is a question that’s come in from the folks who are watching for Secretary Hobbs. The question is, “One way to help convince candidates, parties, and voters that the election is fair is to allow access to the process to election observers, both domestic and international, who can see what’s going on and report on the successes, identify any shortcomings? Sadly, there are 11 states that actively prohibit election observation, including Arizona. Based on your experience, do you feel like this would be one way to increase confidence in the system, especially in increased voting by mail or do you think” – Which is an interesting corollary, does it actually make less sense if a lot more people are voting by mail? But the person who’s asked has worked as an election observer in the past.
Katie Hobbs
Hi, and great question. I’m curious where you got your information ‘cause we do allow observation for our process, both at the polling places and at the tabulation centers. So, I don’t – I’m not calling you wrong, I just – in my experience that is allowed and I think it’s a very critical tool for transparency and for let – you know, making sure that we’re informing the public what we’re doing and helping to dissuade some of those – that misinformation that’s out there, in terms of, you know, that there’s wrongdoing in the process. So, we do have election observers. I do think it is a critical piece of everything that we do, in terms of maintaining election security and the public’s confidence.
Amy Pope
That’s helpful. Does anybody have a different point of view? No, great. That’s great. I’m not sure where this information came from, it’s – maybe it’s outdated for the questioner. So, that’s good news. Here’s another question coming in, given the attacks on voting by mail, could you issue short digestible, how it works fairly and safely guide to the media and the public? Are you already doing it to counter the false propaganda against it? And when people vote in-person, can the Secretaries of States, where this does take place, explain why there seem to be insufficient voting places, so that there are long lines in the first place, which seems to negatively impact voter turnout? Go ahead, whoever wants to take that, I can – well…
Katie Hobbs
And I’m happy to start. So, oh, I just totally forgot the first part of the question though. But the part about – oh, it’s information, yes. We are investing a significant amount of resources, maybe more than any previous Secretary in the State of Arizona has, around educating the public, and not just on Vote by Mail, although that’s a critical piece, just because of the circumstances we’re in right now, but every aspect of voting, and we have a lot of early voting options in Arizona, so how do voters learn about those, take advantage of those? How do they make the best plan for them that’s going to keep them invested in this election?
So, we’re investing a significant amount of resources. On terms of election day voting, and even – we have in-person early voting as well and so, the number of locations and things like that is critical, and I think Secretaries across the country have diff – varying degrees of influence on that. In Arizona, it’s largely a county function and so, our biggest role in that is just partnering with the counties to help address resource shortages, to help address where we think there might be problems, and in this election, we’re partnering with them to ensure that they have all the needed PPE and other things they need to keep voters safe. Voters and poll workers.
But – so, one of the things that we were able to do, with the election procedures manual that we did, and this is probably way in the weeds, but has to do with how polling places are structured, in terms of if somebody has to go to their assigned precinct polling location or if they can have a more of a vote centre model, where voters are able to go to any voting location, and we made that much more flexible, with the election procedures that we put out for this election.
Jocelyn Benson
I’ll piggyback on that and say, as in Michigan as well, we’re investing more funds than ever before in voter education, which we have to do in order to both, as I mentioned before, accomplish our dual goals of proactively educating our voters about their choices this year and countering the disinformation campaigns that will be only be escalating in our state in the weeks to come. But that said, we found that that type of, you know, clear how-to guides are helpful. We also launched a page on our website Michigan.gov/vote that goes through everything we’re doing to protect the security and the process, so that citizens have a trusted portal of information when they get questions that are circulating that they can come and have them answered in one specific location.
And then, the other thing we found is that, you know, that the content of the message is only one piece of it. You also have to think about the delivery. Who is it coming from? And having it just come from the Secretary of State’s Officer or a local election official is important but encouraging others to be trusted voices and Ambassadors of democracy this year is really key as well. Voices that are trusted in communities, be they athletes or other prominent figures or simply just community leaders who can, again, use the data that we provide, the content that we generate to cut through the rhetoric and provide trusted sources of information. We already knew that was going to be a battle this year. It’s even more so, with the pandemic than ever before, but it’s critical because, you know, if we don’t do that, then those seeking to misinform or deceive the public will be successful.
The other part of your question was about…?
Amy Pope
This is about the access to voting in-person and keeping the lines…
Jocelyn Benson
Oh, the lines short, yeah.
Amy Pope
Yeah.
Jocelyn Benson
So, two things on that. *One, there’s really two needs. In addition to education, there’s two other universal needs right now in election administration in the United States. One are people and two are places. We need more people, as Secretary Hobbs mentioned earlier, and working our polls and being available to help process and count ballots on election day and so – and more locations. We’re at a moment where because of the pandemic, not as many physical locations are available in states like Michigan and others where we have that in-person voting option that’s very robust and not as many people are available to work the polls because many are being compromised or otherwise don’t want to be involved in that in-person voting situation in November. So, we’ve launched a campaign to recruit more citizens partnering with professional organisations and universities and sports teams and others to provide people, but also, to provide places, looking at arenas, looking at university facilities and other locations that can provide polling place locations.
But when you see long lines on election day, they are oftentimes a result of localities having to consolidate precincts into one location, sending everyone there and then not having as many people to staff that location, leading to backups and longer wait times. So, we can avoid that through, you know, more people and more places. And then also, in many states, getting more people to vote ahead of time through the mail as opposed to on election day. So, that’s kind of a three-pronged strategy that we’re all implementing and know that it requires, as you can see, a team of people offering locations, or offering to help and working to disseminate trusted information, in order to make this work.
Amy Pope
That’s helpful.
Kym Wyman
Yes, I would just absolutely echo everything that Secretary Hobbs and Benson just said. I would go back to one of the first parts of the question, was the security elements of it. So, one of the things that’s really important and the lynchpin here in Washington, I think it’s probably going to be that case across the country, is the signature verification. So, because we pre-emptively send every single voter a ballot, and there are many people in my state, even, that believe that we don’t check voter ID. In fact, that as we know is a huge source of contention across the country. Washington, I’m really pleased to tell you has had voter ID since 2006 ad it came out of our Governors’ race quite honestly, and we check it at the time of registration. We’ve already withstood a Brennan Center legal challenge and it’s worked very well, and so they – a voter has to provide one of three forms of ID that we do validate against another database.
The second one is that when the ballot comes back from the voter, we check the signature on that outer envelope to the signature on file. If they don’t match, we can – we contact proactively the counties, proactively contact the voter, giving them an opportunity to either sign their envelope because many forget to do that or to say that, “Yes, that is my signature,” and have it reverified. This does two things. One, it gives a second chance, but more importantly, if Katie Hobbs hasn’t returned her ballot and she gets a letter from her County Auditor, she’s immediately going to call them and say, “That’s not my ballot. It’s fraudulent,” and that’s another security measure.
Beyond that it’s really about the internal controls that you have in place, and we learnt that the hard way in 2004. Our largest county is King County where Seattle is, and they really became the epicentre for that election. To this day, 16 years later, it doesn’t matter what room I’m in, there’s always someone that has a question about that election. And it comes down to how you’re managing contr0l because one of the things that happened in multiple counties that year was that they found ballots, trays of ballots. Now, these were more due to poor controls than it was any kind of voter fraud, but 16 years later, it’s still the perception many voters have. So, having that accountability and being able to reconcile every ballot you receive in, is critical.
At the end of an election, every election official has to tell you how many ballots they received, how many were counted, the ones that weren’t counted, and why they were rejected. And what’s really important to the states that are kind of newer to large volumes of Vote by Mail ballots is that not only do you need to reconcile that, you have to be really consistent county-to-county or township-to-township in how you are processing those ballots. So, the voter that circles the name instead of filling in the oval, how are you going to duplicate that ballot in a way to make sure that it’s counted and make sure that between counties it’s done exactly the same way? It’s voter intent. Comes out of the 2000 Gore v. Bush decision and all of the litigation that happened in that election. It’s so imperative because that’s what the Lawyers will zero in on, especially the two of you, you’re going to be in swing states, you’re going to have a lot of oversight, and it’s just that’s what they do is, they will pit counties against each other and if you’re not consistent within the state, that’s what opens up a lot of litigation and the grounds for having ballots thrown out or accepted and changing potentially the outcome.
Finally, what I would say is that pre-election work – I can’t tell you, Secretary Benson, how nervous it makes me that you only have three days on the frontend to process ballots. I don’t know what it is in Arizona. We have ten. Counties can start checking signatures ten days before election day. They can start putting ballots through the machines to scan them. I believe even at the ten-day mark, but it maybe five days before election day, and I’m making that up, so don’t hold me to it. But my point is, is that it’s a lot of work and I would anticipate 10% of your return ballots, 10%, do the math, of your ballots are going to need to be adjudicated and probably duplicated to be run through your readers. You have to build in that time and that’s what really slows down the process quite honestly is that ballot duplication.
So – and then finally, on the lines, the issue and the change that’s happened – because I’m old enough to remember the olden days of polling places. Polling places, we directed voters to a specific location that they had to vote in, so you could control the number of people that could maximum – the maximum number of people that could come through on election day. Right now, it’s the Wild, Wild West. Any voter can go to any place on an election day, which is great for the voters and we should do, but it makes it very, very difficult to plan. And that’s part of why you have lines, is, you know, everybody gets off of lunch, and they have an hour to go vote and they all go and hit the polling place or the vote center at the same time and that’s a big part of the line management, which MIT has done a ton of work on and is really important.
Amy Pope
That goes with the question about voter fraud that we got from one of the people watching the panel. It’s very helpful, Secretary Wyman, to hear your point of view on how to manage that. Secretary Hobbs or Benson, is there anything else you’d would want to ask on the question of voter fraud? And how big of a problem is it?
Jocelyn Benson
Well, we’ve operated now six elections, five elections, three in 2019 and two in 2020 under these new rules with a universal vote by mail option or a vote by mail right for our citizens and we’ve seen no fraud, and we’ve seen a lot of people choosing to vote by mail for the first time. So, I’m using that data to inform our decision-making but the reason why we’ve seen no fraud is because, well, if it happens, we catch it and we have security measures in place that were articulated by Secretary Wyman that we’ve been able to replicate on Michigan. I think, again, one of the real benefits that we have, because we’re not pioneers in any of these election innovations, is to just take the time-tested security protections and other practices that other states have really perfected over decades and implement them here in Michigan.
Our only challenge oftentimes is just resources and we’re, you know, continuing to ask the federal government for more resources to implement a lot of these security measures. We’ve implemented, in the past few months, just more signature because every ballot sent through the mail, the identity of the voter is verified through their signature. They sign the ballot outside the envelope and that signature is – I mean, they sign the envelope that the ballot is in and that signature is then used to match with their voter registration signature to affirm that it’s the same person. And it’s much more difficult to, you know, in my view, create a false signature that is verified and matched than it is to create a fake ID and vote in-person. And so, for that reason, we feel the signature matching process is one of the more secure ways that you can validate someone’s identity in the voting process. But you need the security and the training of those officials that are doing the signature match to actually ensure that things go according to plan. So, we’re investing in more technology, more training, and more guidelines for that signature match. But it’s probably one of the most important ways in which we can counter real concerns about fraud, and then we have to deal with. So, then we have that data and facts in place, and then we just have to deal with ensuring people know about it, so that we can counter efforts to otherwise argue that the system isn’t secure, which will be rampant this year with the data and facts showing that indeed, it is very secure and this is why.
Amy Pope
Secretary Hobbs, are you guys seeing a particular issue with fraud? Is it more significant in voting by mail versus voting in-person?
Katie Hobbs
Absolutely not. There is nothing to support that there is more fraud in Vote by Mail than anywhere else, and so, it’s just, you know, folks trying to really undermine the system and so, to counter that, I mean, we do have to do everything we can to make our processes transparent. I will say that, you know, one of the things that people like to say is that, you know, there’s no ID check, and that signature verification is that ID check. It is a rigorous process done by trained professionals and so, you know, there’s – it’s just again, it’s just misinformation, and our responsibility really is to work to counter that and to let the public know what we are doing to ensure the security of the elections.
Amy Pope
That’s very helpful.
Kym Wyman
I would…
Amy Pope
Go ahead.
Kym Wyman
I would just add, in Washington, we’re part of the ERIC project, which is a consortium of 30 states and the District of Columbia where we do data matching to keep our addresses up to date and to catch people moving within and between states. And one of the things that we participated in, in both 2016 and 2018 was comparing our voter history. So, that record that record that we put in each voter’s individual record of whether they voted or not were compared to the other states and in both years, we had similar results. In 2018, we did find 142 cases of people who appeared to have voted more than once or voted on behalf of a deceased family member. That’s out of 3.2 million ballots cast. So, is it perfect? No. But it does show that it is a very low incidents and it really does validate what I know instinctively. You know, we’re not perfect election officials, we want to be perfect, we can’t stand anything short of perfection. But, you know, people – just like banks, people are going to want to try to do things and try to get away with it and now, we are turning that over to our local prosecuting Attorneys and if they don’t prosecute them, we are going to turn it over to the FBI for a prosecution. So, we take it seriously.
Amy Pope
That’s really helpful. On the flipside, there have been ongoing concerns about racially motivated voter suppression. Most recently in Georgia in 2018 and obviously throughout the US history. What steps do you feel are necessary, especially as we move to various sort of hybrid voting to make sure that racially motivated voter suppression is not exacerbated or could be mitigated? Sorry, Secretary Benson. go ahead.
Kym Wyman
Oh, I’ll go ahead. So, in Washington, I can give you an example of some of the work we’ve been doing with our Native American community here in the state. We have 29 recognised tribes. Not quite the same environment, I think, that Arizona has. I know that Secretary Hobbs has a lot of challenges with different languages and non-written languages. So, we’re not quite on that level. But, you know, we do have a lot of the same challenges with non-traditional addresses, with people that may couch surf, and just not having a place to receive mail on tribal land. And so, our counties have worked very closely and have started proactively working closely with their Native American tribes and leadership. For example, the Yakama Nation, they’re using their community centre as an address to receive mail for those who don’t have an address. We just implemented a system that now has geodata for addressing rather than address tables. So, now we can actually drop pins on the map in the Native American lands to be able to locate our voters and precinct them correctly, and I think it’s just an ongoing effort that takes a lot of time but is really worthwhile.
And, you know, a couple of years ago a number of my Auditors were very resistant to put drop-boxes on tribal land or near tribal land and it came an issue in my race, actually. They kept trying to point – my opponent kept pointing to me as the cause of that and she went so far, a year later, of doing it to one of the County Auditors and, “You’re not putting a drop-box on tribal land because you’re racist.” It literally what was said, and it was unfortunately for her, the Auditor she accused of that was a member of the tribe. Not only a member, but a leader in the tribe. So, he was a tribal elder. So, it, kind of, fell flat. But it really did jumpstart those conversations and now, we have every single tribe has a drop-box located near or on tribal land. So, it’s really opening up those conversations, I think, to each community because each community has a different set of challenges that maybe barriers to voting. And I think the more you have those conversations and tailor the answers to those communities, the more successful we are at – in making sure that everyone has their right protected.
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah, I completely agree. It’s about listening to the voter and providing them with a system of voting that both – that best fits their needs and the needs of their community. In Michigan, we have several communities that are historically disenfranchised and have some of the lowest turnout in the state, particularly in the cities of Detroit and the City of Flint, where 60 of the 100 lowest – performing the lowest turnout precincts, which is the area through which people vote, have the lowest turnout in the state. So, recognising that we’ve been having listening sessions all around the state and those low turnout communities to have conversations to say, “What can we do better? How can we make sure that we’re doing everything we can proactively to help your community vote and ensure voices are heard?”
Now, if citizens speak English as a second language, certainly providing translated materials is key. If citizens are in urban areas, where polling places are either in challenging locations, in terms of accessibility or are underfunded, we provide more support for that. Voter education as well is a steep climb in many communities that have been historically disenfranchised. So, all of that we have to proactively do. And sometimes, it’s simply inaction and inability to connect or respond to communities needs that can lead to suppression and sometimes it is intentional. But at the same time, knowing the history in the United States as well of intentional acts to discriminate based on race, based on voting, which is, of course, the most direct avenue people have to ensuring they’re empowered in our country. We, as Election Administrators, need to work proactively, creatively, and innovatively to ensure we’re doing everything we can to serve communities of colour and communities that have been historically disenfranchised in our country.
Amy Pope
I’m going to give you guys one last question ‘cause we’re just about at the end of our hour and this can be a quick one. It is, are you pessimistic or optimistic going into November elections, in terms of voter turnout? Do you think we will be better or worse than the 55.7% who voted in 2016? Katie, Secretary Hobbs, do you want to start?
Katie Hobbs
Sure. In Arizona, I’m extremely optimistic. We saw a record turnout in the midterm election in 2018, and by all accounts, there’s a lot of motivation to get out there and participate and folks really actively working to help ensure that that right to vote is protected and so, I’m very optimistic about turnout this November.
Jocelyn Benson
Likewise. We’re seeing record turnout in every election we’ve held this year. We’ve held two. We have two more. Even in our local elections that are usually, you know, 12/13% turnout, we saw 25% turnout, double every past local election. So, people are engaged. People are energised this year on both sides of the spectrum, and I think that will only mean higher turnout across the board this fall.
Kym Wyman
Really great. Also, optimistic we’re going to see high turnout. I will admit though, for the first time in my 27 years of doing this, I’m looking at a countdown calendar with a very different view. I can’t wait ‘til this is over. Three months, 21 days, 13 hours, 59 minutes, and 50 seconds.
Amy Pope
Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Just, what an incredible panel and I’d like to note, first of all, that for two of you, you started at an ungodly hour of 5:00am. So, thank you for logging on so early to talk about an issue that is really generating a lot of interest. I don’t envy you the task that is ahead of you, to be perfectly honest, the stakes are high. We’re dealing with unpredictable circumstances that requires a lot of creativity, persistence, hard work, and clear messaging. But I’m really heartened, after having this conversation, and very, very much appreciate your engagement and your public service. So, thanks from Chatham House and enjoy the rest of your day, and to those who participated and listened in today, thanks for calling in.
Katie Hobbs
Bye.
Amy Pope
Bye.
Katie Hobbs
Thank you.
