Ben Bland
Good evening, everyone. My name is Ben Bland. I’m the new Director of the Asia-Pacific Programme here at Chatham House, very new in fact, this is my third day, so, bear with me. Thanks for coming. I’m really delighted tonight to be joined by Anies Baswedan, the Governor of Jakarta. It’s a real honour for me, because my primary research focus is Indonesia. I’m also a former Jakarta resident for four years, where I first met Pak Anies, so, really excited to have so many people in the room and online, for this dialogue today.
I’m just going to explain a bit about Pak Anies’s background first, then I’ll explain how the event’s going to run, and then we’ll go straight into a conversation, and then have time to come to your questions in the room and online later.
So, Pak Anies was elected as Governor of Jakarta, the Indonesian Capital, in 2017. He leads a city of more than ten million people, and manages a budget larger than many National Ministries in Indonesia. He’s steered the city through the COVID pandemic, overseen the launch of Jakarta’s first ever metro line, in the – now in the city that, I think, gave the world the first underground metro line; launched a big, new football stadium, which is a big deal in Jakarta, especially for fans of the crazy Jakarta football team, we can talk about that later.
Before running Jakarta, Pak Anies had a very distinguished and varied career. I first met you, I think, Pak, when you were the rector of Paramadina University.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yes, indeed.
Ben Bland
And he was running an education organisation called Indonesia Mengajar, which is similar to the Teach First programme in the UK, or Teach for America. He’d also worked as an Advisor to current President Joko Widodo during the 2014 election campaign, was later appointed Education Minister in President Jokowi, as he’s known, first Cabinet, serving there ‘til 2016. Previously, he studied economics at Universitas Gadjah Mada in Jakarta, won a Fulbright Scholarship to the University of Maryland, and has a PhD in Political Science from Northern Illinois, studying political Islam in Indonesia, which is a really interesting topic.
So, yeah, before we begin, I want to remind everyone that today’s event is on the record. I’m going to ask Pak Anies questions for about 30 to 40 minutes, then we’ll have 20/25 minutes for all of your questions. If you’re submitting questions online, I think the chat function and raise hand is not enabled, but use the Q&A function, and we’ll ask you later to unmute yourself and ask the questions yourself.
So, finally, onto the main business of the day. Why don’t you start, Pak Anies, by telling me what brings you to London?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Thank you, Ben, for inviting to the Chatham House, the famous Chatham House, and the honour to be here, and it’s good to be travelling again. You know, in the past, basically almost two-and-a-half years we all were just staying in our city, and managing all these challenges. And I came here with the delegations, working together with our partners in London on public transport improvement in Jakarta, ‘specially on the sustainable mobility approach. So, we have, as you mentioned earlier, we are developing our subway system. We are on the second phase of that development, and then we’re also converting our bus system, the BRT system, and we’re converting into electric buses, and we’d like to see all our public buses to be electrified by 2030. So, just prior to these sessions, we had an MoU signing at the embassies with our partners here, and our company in Jakarta on that.
So, what brings me to London is our endeavour for green mobility, and Jakarta is facing a challenge on mobility, was – congestion was an issue. On the other hand, London is perhaps one of the first city to develop public transport, and it was also London that started the Clean Air Act in the 50s, so, talking about clean air and mobility, those are two thing that comes together. So, on that mission, we are here and we’re happy to see the progress and look forward, and I think there is also a new phase of Indonesia-UK relationship, in which more and more possible co-operations were taking place.
Ben Bland
Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting point. I know that the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, was just here recently, and I think with the UK’s Indo-Pacific tilt, it’s really good for me as a British person who’s been outside the country for a long time, working on Indonesia, to see the country being taken much more seriously, I think that’s great.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, and just last night, I’m meeting with Minister of International Trade, Anne-Marie, and she visited us last February, and we talk about possible co-operations between UK and Indonesia and on that aspect, so, we continue the conversation here in London.
Ben Bland
Yeah, okay, and how – you talked about transportation. How have you found it getting around London in the last couple of days?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Well, I – when I came here from the airport, the traffic was quite heavy, so, you know, and again, it shows that public transport is not about solving traffic congestion. Public transport is about providing certainty for the public. If you take public transport, it’ll be more efficient, it’ll be predictable, but if you’re using private vehicles, then it is unpredictable and congestion will be there. And I think that is also the direction we’re going, so, Jakarta, as you know, you mentioned earlier, the population in Jakarta is around 11 million within the city, but Jakarta and its vicinity, it’s about 35 millions, and no less than four million people are commuting every day. So, mobility is a big issue, so, if I may say, in the past few years we worked together to transform mobility in Jakarta by producing a new system, it’s called Jak Lingko, in which all public transport in Jakarta were integrated into a single system. Integration in what sense? Integrating the routes, integrating the payment system, and integrating the management. And with that integrations, we have seen a shift in the behaviour of the public with regard to mobility.
In 2016, around 350,000s people were using public transport on daily basis, so, daily ridership was 350,000s. And after we integrated the system, we reached one million in three years, so, what happened is it tripled. If we double our fleet, it means there’s political commitment to use our fiscal to expand the fleet. But if the ridership tripled, it means there is a change in the behaviour of the public, and that’s what we’re seeing now in Jakarta. And the impact is quite significant. Our congestion level has gone down significantly. It’s still congestion there, but Jakarta used to be fourth most congested city in the world, by TomTom traffic index, so, number four worldwide was Jakarta. It was in 2017, Ben, you may remember that.
Ben Bland
Yes.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
And then in 2018, we’re going down a little bit, number seven; 2018, we dropped to number ten, and we’re still in top ten. On all issues, we like to be on the top ten, but not on traffic congestions, I mean, on traffic congestion you want to be out of top ten. So, by 2020, we dropped to number 34 worldwide – I’m sorry, 32, and then by 2021, we were number 46, so, we dropped from fourth most congested city to number 46, and again, that is the result of collective work, not only us in government, but also willingness of the people. But again, the way I look at this, it’s beyond transportation, Ben, if I may say that.
Jakarta is somewhat a city that is segregated, you live in Jakarta, you experience Jakarta, somewhat segregated based on socioeconomic, and our idea is, how do we build unity in our city? How do we create the feeling of togetherness within our city? So, you look at our city, Jakarta, and then I divide it into three space. First space is at home, second space is at work, and third space is public space. So, we build public space with the idea of integrating our society, and creating the feeling of equality. Public transport is one. When you’re using public transport, be it a CEO, be it the President, be it the Governor, you stand on the same line, you sit in the same chair, the feeling of equity is there. But if you use private vehicle, your own vehicles, the brand reflect your socioeconomic status, the type of car you’re using reflects your socioeconomic status. So, promoting public transport is beyond mobility. It is to create a feeling of equality in the city of Jakarta, and we know that is the pretext of segregation that I mentioned earlier.
But we didn’t stop there. The third space, we’re talking about parks. In Bahasa Indonesia, park is called gar – Taman, that’s the word, Taman, but Taman is interpreted as garden, and garden is – park is different. Garden is a place in which you view, you enjoy the, you know, the plantations, the plants and flowers and things like that. But park is to play, therefore in Jakarta, we used to see signs in our garden, in our Taman, and the sign says, “Do not step on the grass,” okay, jangan menginjak rumput, do you remember that? And in a park, you may step on the grass, I mean, you can play on the grass, so, we transformed that perspective about Taman from being a garden into Taman being a park, and we built more than 100 parks and the idea is – why that is the case? We would like our residents to come out to this third space and experiencing equal opportunities, equality in every aspect.
So, if I may go beyond public transport as a means for mobility, but public transport to create the feeling of equality, and especially with MRT. It is also public education. One day, in our MRT, one of the Minister tried MRT and then he – she came to me and said, “Anies, can I advi – can I give you suggestions?” “Sure, we’re open to suggestion.” “Can you put more garbage can in the station? Why you don’t have enough public garbage can?” And then I said, “There is no garbage can. You should don’t throw your garbage in our station or in our cars, in the MRT.” And the idea is, again, educating public about, you know, a more sustainable way of managing your waste. And this is something that we are looking at, so, MRT is not simply about mobility, it’s about public education on punctuality, on cleanliness, on environmental approach, so, that’s the kind of transformation we tried to do in Jakarta.
Ben Bland
So, I know you’re Governor of a huge city, so, I know you have to manage all these day-to-day issues: the garbage management, the transportation, the parks, but if you zoom out a bit to the big picture, like, what would you say would be the three biggest challenges that Jakarta is facing as a city?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Number one is resilience in term of food supplies, because as a city, we depend upon other regions to make sure that we have that. Number two is access to clean water, this is clear. And then number three is obviously, as a city, we’re talking about mobility, that I mention earlier, but there is also issues that is important to us, but not specific to Jakarta, but these also relate to others. Those three were specific to Jakarta.
What are they? Employment, that’s number one. Cost of living, health, and educations. But I must say, those issues were not only us, but those, the first three was us, so, those are a set of top policy issues that we have to deal with, even though – for example, cost of living, even though it is often national policies and it live under – in the hand of National Government, but the public demand local leadership to also address those issues, so we are also addressing those issues. So, those are some of the key priorities that a city like Jakarta, we have to tackle.
Ben Bland
I’m going to come into some of those issues later, but first I want to ask you a bit about what you learnt since – in the five years you’ve been Governor. Obviously, you have a PhD in political science, before that you did a lot of academic work, so, you’ve thought about government, you’ve been a Minister in National Cabinet, and now you’ve run Indonesia’s biggest city, and I think, the world’s second-biggest city. So, what are the key skills or the things you need to be successful when you’re managing such a big city, what have you learnt about how to make local government work in a huge megacity like Jakarta?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
One, delivery, two, delivery, three, delivery. So, those are the key things. At the end of the day, people demand concrete delivery of whatever promise that was made, and I think that’s key to democracy. We would like to see democracy to deliver its promise, and one of the things that I, you know, I pick up during our service in Jakarta is translating campaign promises into programmes, and then into implementations, into monitoring and then result, at the end.
So, let’s give you an example. We’re talking about public transport earlier. We’re talking about integrations, so, the result is clear, and how that is happening, the way we did it, we created, it’s called Governor’s Delivery Units, which is, in Bahasa Indonesia it’s called [mother tongue – 18:31]. It is one key elements that help translate that into programmes, and then monitor the exclusions, and making sure the result is there.
So, that aspect is key and what is also important is to clearly outline your visions and communicate that into the entire bureaucracy. The bureaucracy needs to understand what is the value that the leadership is upholding, and translate that into actions. Look, in Jakarta, we have almost 200,000 people working for the Provincial Government. I must say, the 128,000s is working more on the very practical things, like street cleaning, sewage system, that’s around 128,000s. So, the other 60,000s of our employee, 34,000s were Teachers. I guess we can take out that. So, the rest were working on the bureaucracy itself with various different departments. Our leaders will have to translate their ideas into lines of communications that is being understood by everyone.
So, I often outline in our meetings, in sessions with all the leaders of Jakarta, all the Department Leaders of Jakarta, a key message. The key message that I often outline is, kedilan sosial bagi semua orang. So, social justice to everyone, making sure that every policy that we’re producing is fulfilling that one line. Kedilan sosial bagi semua orang, social justice to everyone who lives in Jakarta. So, that’s the ideology, that’s, sort of, the purpose that everyone need to achieve. So, you know, when you’re talking about democracy and local government, I think that is an opportunity to see how reality is being transformed. One example was that, and if I may save – give you another example of how it is being executed, is with regard to the small-scale businesses in Jakarta during the pandemic.
During the pandemic, we were all – had to stay at home, work from home and study from home. The challenge is for those who are working as small, microbusinesses, providing food services, pedagang kecil, how do I say this in English?
Ben Bland
Like, petty traders or hawkers, street hawkers.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Street hawkers, and when we said, “Stop doing that,” I mean, “stop, you know, working on that,” where do they get their income? Because those are daily income that they’re getting. When it is stopped and they’ve no daily income, then problems arises. And on the other hand, we have digital economy, in which many restaurant, cafe were included in that market and online orders. But in Jakarta, the situation was this; previously more mid and upscale restaurant and cafe were included in the digital market, but the more traditional street vendors, they were not in the digital economy. So, we went out and give [mother tongue – 22:51] and business permits to all small businesses, because with that tool, then they can join all this digital market, to reach a wider audience.
So, what happened? Before the pandemic there was only 58,000s registered businesses, small businesses in Jakarta. After this, after the pandemic, in accordance to pandemic, we then had to deliver this breakthrough. We had 252,000s street vendors, small businesses who register, and because of that, even though they are not opening on their regular places, they’re working from home, but they take out orders. So, at the end of the day, in our experience, people like to see government respond to their situations, and actually delivers, not only creating statements and feeling good because I know something’s coming, but they actually like to see the reality is there.
Ben Bland
And you mentioned the pandemic. Obviously Indonesia, like everywhere in the world, you know, has been hit pretty hard. Indonesia went into its first recession since the Asian financial crisis of 1998. Jakarta’s obviously the beating heart of the Indonesian economy. How’s the Jakarta economy doing now, are things picking up, recovering?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, are things picking up? I mean, you’re right, Jakarta contributed at least 17 to 18% of the national GDP, and we experience one of the, you know, largest contractions of our economy. Our budget was cut around 30%, because of the pandemic, obviously, and many Local Government relied on transfer from National Government. But Jakarta is rather unique, because we relied on tax revenue, so, when economic activity contracted, then we experienced that contraction too.
Now things have shifted significantly, and I believe even Ja – for the case of Jakarta, even though we were hit hardest, the two provinces hit hardest: one is Jakarta, two is Bali, of course, with tourisms, obviously. But I believe Jakarta will come back much faster than others, because the contraction was not of economic problems, but it was simply because we had to stop our activities. Once the activity restarted, then we’ll jumpstart, so, so far we’re making progress, and even then, during that difficult times, with the digitalisations of our economy, and that penetration of cell phone in Jakarta that is so high, that we’re able to see digital economy grow much faster than we thought earlier.
Ben Bland
And how about in terms of the impact on the health system? I mean, obviously, I think, things now have calmed down a bit, but there’ve been really bad spikes in Jakarta, just like London and everywhere else. How has the health system, the public health system come through the pandemic, is it in a stronger shape now to withstand future shocks, do you think?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, I think so. I think in the first few months, I mean, just, like, you know, any other cities across the globe, we were overwhelmed with the pandemic. I think the pandemic has taught us that whenever we’re talking about healthcare system, not only about quality, but quantity matters. In the past, our focus was improving the quality of our healthcare system, but we forgot about quantity. Suddenly we’re talking about quantity, so, we have 196 hospitals in Jakarta, and during the crisis, we work very hard to convert many hospital into COVID hospitals, and all state-own hospitals have been – was converted into basically COVID hospitals to cope with that.
So, in the initial stage we were overwhelmed, and then after that we made adjustment on our SOPs and all the necessary procedures to cope with COVID, so, when we faced the second waves of the pandemic, we were more prepared than we used to be. So, there a lot of lesson learned to improve the quality of our services in Jakarta, and we’re grateful, and in fact, when people infected by COVID prior to vaccinations, many actually come to Jakarta for healthcare treatment, because they’re not sure if the local hospital outside Jakarta had the experience, the capacity, and the network to actually handle patients.
And there are two things here with regard to COVID. One is the treatment, two is the testing capacity, you know, how important it was, testing capacity. So, during the early stage, we identify all laboratories in Jakarta who has PCR machines, what kind of reagent they have, what kind of system they have. So, instead of us enlarging our capacity to do testing, we invited all laboratories to work as a single entity. So, ins – the way it works is that we don’t want to do it on our own, itself, because at that time even finding a PCR machine was very difficult, so the way we do it, in a collaborative way. So, it’s like a group of laboratories, so, we have more than 40 laboratories in Jakarta, and everyone is doing testing for us. So, we collected the samples and then we sent it to the labs, the labs gave us the result. And by doing that, we were able to do testing ten times the minimum requirement by WHO, which was pretty high for a city like Jakarta, yeah. So, some – a very important lesson learnt during the crisis.
Ben Bland
Obviously, yeah, I think, across the world we’re all hoping we’re, you know, leaving the crises behind, but it does seem that just as we come out of the pandemic and the economic shock there, there’s now a cost of living crisis, you know, all around the world, and I know in Indonesia food prices and cooking oil prices have spiked really sharply in the last six months or so. It’s putting a lot of pressure particularly on poorer households and Jakarta, as you were saying earlier, is quite a divided city in socioeconomic terms. So, how hard have these food price spikes hit Jakartans, and as a City Government, you know, obviously working with the National Government, what are you able to do to try and manage the shock, ‘specially on poorer households?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, well, it was an issue and definitely food, as I mentioned earlier actually, Jakarta has dependency to the outside regions with regard to good supplies. So, the way we did it is that we have state-own enterprises, owned by the City of Jakarta, that manage, one is all markets in our city. We have 123 markets within the city, and then number two is managing ‘specially rice supplies, and core or basic food supplies such as eggs, meats and all of that, so, we have three companies that solely managing that. And the idea was this: by being able to control supply around ten to 15% of all demands, then we are able to stabilise prices. There are times in which supply drop little bit, then we pour from our companies to the market. So, that stabilise prices on basic commodities, food commodities, but it was not about cooking oil, okay, because all of that was about the basic needs, like, so, it’s rice, meat, eggs and all of that.
Now, with regards to cooking oil that we experience, and then the government interventions through cash transfers, cash transfer to the poorest families. They’re given cash so that they can use the cash to purchase the cooking oil, which was, you know, through market mechanism, has jumped significantly, and I think that is phenomenon across the globe. But in Indonesia, it was quite an irony, because we are the largest producer, and then suddenly, we’re experiencing an increase in the cooking oil price, and also, you know, in our market, sometimes it was not available. So, that was the mechanism the government is doing, and Jakarta is following in that direction.
Ben Bland
Okay. The other big challenge facing Jakarta in the medium-term, but even in the short-term too, is climate change. I mean, Jakarta is literally sinking into the sea because of various issues to do with overdevelopment and encroachment of seawater. That’s just one example, but obviously regular flooding and all sorts of other challenges. What are you doing to mitigate some of those risks of climate change…
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Sure.
Ben Bland
…that are facing Jakarta?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Sure. Well, for example, we committed ourself to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions by 30% in 2030. That commitment has been delivered, so, by now, eight years from 2030, we have released 26% greenhouse gas emissions, so, we are ahead of schedule on that. So, we hope this will be completed by around 2025, five years ahead of the schedule. And then you’re mentioning about the issue of sinking or land subsidence. The land subsidence issues is at least two things. One is water extraction by household in the cities, and then two is the rise of sea level, so, two things is happening. And the rise of sea level is being faced by so many cities across the globe, not only Jakarta, but the water extraction that have cause land subsidence, our approach was to address the core problem.
What is the core problem? I mentioned level water. Pipe water in our city has only reached 62% of the populations. We need to expedite this to reach at least 85% of the populations have pipe water, so, our shortcut in that process was by providing a community tank of water that, we truck the water, basically. There is a kind of a truck coming in, provided the water, so that people have access to clean water, without needing doing water extractions from a well that they built in their communities. And, I must say, that land subsidence issue has now been somewhat – I don’t want to say solved, but it’s no longer a threatening issue, land subsidence, because we have been quite successful in reducing water extractions. So, now, if we look at a map of Jakarta, and then there are spots of our area that experience land subsidence, the number of those areas have reduced significantly from, say, ten years ago ‘til today. We have monitoring system of land subsidence, and today we have no less than five areas. It used to be many, many areas, so, now around five areas that we are continuing to address that, so, on land subsidence, we are on the right directions.
And then on the rise of sea level, we are talking about building, how do I say this, a sea wall, and the sea wall need to be built around 32km across the beach in Jakarta. So far, we’ve completed 11km. It was somewhat paused a little bit because of the pandemic, that we running out of budget for that, but now it is restarting. So, we hope to cover that, and with that, we hope to be able to handle the land subsidence and sea rise water. And then, talking about clean air earlier, our approach on converting more people using public transport rather than private vehicle was in the directions of having a better quality of air in the city.
Ben Bland
I think your President, Joko Widodo, has cited some of these challenges as one of the reasons why he’s planning to move the Capital from Jakarta, I think, more than 1,000km over the Java Sea to a, kind of, new, greenfield site in Kalimantan. I’m wondering, a) do you think that plan’s actually going to happen, and b) if and when it does, what impact do you think the move of the Capital will have on Jakarta as a city, and a business hub, and everything else?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, it is no longer just a plan, it is already a bill, so, there is a bill of relocating the Capital from Jakarta into a city called Nusantara. So, when the bill is there, then it is mandatory for everyone to actually implement the bill, ’cause it’s a bill. So, as long as the bill is there, then we will see that being implemented.
And then number two, the impact to Jakarta. With or without Jakarta being the Capital of Indonesia, all of that problems need to be addressed. I mean…
Ben Bland
The ten million people aren’t going anywhere.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, it is going to be there, and so, the land subsidence issues, the mobility issues, it’s still going to be there. So – and if you’re talking about, let’s say, what’s the contributions of government activity to our traffic congestions? And the answer is, government activity contribute around 4% of traffic in Jakarta. So, if the government relocating to East Kalimantan, can reduce by 4%, and the 96% stays in Jakarta, so, we’ll have to deal with that. So, for us, it is actually an opportunity to reset Jakarta more as a city where the centre of economic activities, the centre of cultural activities, social activities in our city, because Jakarta has always been the hub of Indonesia. You can relocate government activities, you can relocate the Capital, but you cannot relocate history, and Jakarta is a city with long history, serve as the hub of the nation.
So, even when we’re talking about mobility, when you are travelling in – from one place to another in Indonesia, the stopover, the transit will be in Jakarta. I mean, talking about Indonesia, that’s the size of, you know, from Aceh to Papua; it stretches, like, from London to Ankara, which is huge. So, Jakarta is still the centre of that activity, so, that will not move to a different place. The Capital may be relocating to East Kalimantan, government activities, but economic activities, social activities, cultural activities, the hub will continue to be in Jakarta.
Ben Bland
I’m going to come to your questions in the room and online in a second, but I do just have one last question, which is maybe about whether you might be in future moving to the new Capital City, when it moves, because your term as Governor of Jakarta ends in October, I think, and quite a few political parties in Indonesia say they’re supporting you as a potential Presidential candidate. When we look at public opinion polls, we can see that you’re one of the top three names in the mix for 2024 when President Joko Widodo has to step down because of the constitutional two-term limit in Indonesia. So, yeah, what are your career plans after October, Pak, do you have any ideas yet?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, well, number one, I need to complete my terms until October, and fulfilling all campaign promises; so far, so good. You know, we’re looking forward for that completions, and then after that, then we’ll see, but for sure, I’ll be running for second term in Jakarta, for sure, and then we’ll see at the national level, because as you know, Indonesian politics, there is no primaries, so, there is no early process of conventions. Often decision were made in the last minute, so, we all has to be open for all options, but for sure, I have a mission for Jakarta that I like to continue, and I’m prepared to run for a second term, in which the election – this is what’s also unique. This time it’s an interesting sequence.
In the past, you have gubernatorial elections prior to Presidential elections. In 2024 it’s the other way around. The gubernatorial election is in November, and then the Presidential election is in February, so, I’m preparing for the November one, and then let’s see with the February, what’s coming, and be prepared.
Ben Bland
We’ll have to see, but we do know that the last person elected Governor of Jakarta ended up as President, and I think the previous person elected as Mayor of London also ended up in charge of this country, so, let’s see.
I think the first question we’re going to take is from someone who’s going to ask online, Abdi Fatah, I think. We’ll just see if they can ask themselves, if they can unmute themselves now. Let’s hope this works.
Abdi Fatah
Hello, yes, thank you very much for taking my question. I’m originally from Somalia. I’m very interested in disability issues, and we know that some parts in Africa and also in developing countries, the disabled people are regarded as a second-class citizen. I’d like to ask the May – the Governor, what is his policy towards the needs of the disabled people in Jakarta, and how will he fulfil their needs of mobility and accessibility, in order for them to achieve their potentials and fit in the mainstream society? Thank you.
Ben Bland
Great question.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Shall I address immediately, or are you…?
Ben Bland
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Sure.
Ben Bland
I mean, Jakarta is a pretty challenging city for people who are disabled to get around.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
So, indeed, and so, what happened is, we have been building sidewalks in Jakarta, and no less than 340km of sidewalks been built in the past four years, and all that constructions, it has to be friendly to people with disabilities. So, you will be seeing markers for individual with sight problems, and then also, it has to be friendly to a wheelchair, for example, so, that development. And then on – so, the new construction has to be friend – disabilities-friendlies. The old one, it will take time to re – to convert, because the construction that has happened prior to our statement about a commitment to create an equal facility to our people with disability.
And second one is about public transport. We are converting, and we have converted public transport to accommodate people with disabilities, and that’s the key one. We are far from complete. Building codes, for example, for new buildings has accommodating for people with disabilities, but the older building have not yet, so, we are in that process. And on our commitment in government, all recruitments of employees, we are requiring minimum 1% of the recruits is with – for people with disabilities. Every recruitment they have, at least 1% is for people with disabilities, to work for Jakarta’s, and whenever we have session like this, then we have translator that translate that into sign language, of all session, every meetings, every seminars, conversations, you have to have a translator for the sign – for people with hearing problems. So, we’re – I don’t want to say we are complete, in term of facilitating that, but I think we are on the directions of making sure that equal facility were provided.
Ben Bland
Okay, any questions in the room? I think there’s one at the front, if you could tell us, yeah, your name and any affiliation. There’s a microphone coming, yeah, it’s there.
John Wilson
My name’s John Wilson. I’m a journalist and a member of Chatham House. The world is moving inexorably towards confrontation in Asia between the bloc of China and its allies, and the United States and its allies. Where do you, Indonesia and Jakarta, stand?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Sure. It’s a bit beyond my jurisdiction, but if I may address, this is also one of the thing. Local Government is all but foreign policy, monetary, security, religious affair, but if I may offer my view on that, Jakarta and Indonesia has been an active member of non-aligned movement, and we have continued on that direction. So, I think we will continue to strike a balance between whatever polarisation during the Cold War with, you know, East and West, we tried to be in the middle, and same thing now with China and the US, and I think that’s the case.
I myself view that we have to be always clear on our stand on international issues. So, we do not like to see countries invading other countries for whatever reasons, and whoever the country is, and I think our stand is clear for peace and we do not tolerate any act of invasions, be it happening in Europe, be it happening in the Middle East, be it happening in the South Asia, be it happening in anywhere in the world, be it happening in South America. So invasion is, that is, you know, in my view, should be our stance, and so far, I think the government has always maintain a non-align approach, whenever it comes to…
John Wilson
Can it in future?
Ben Bland
Can you maintain that non-aligned position as the world gets more competitive, particularly in Asia with the US and China?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, but…
John Wilson
I was thinking in Europe.
Ben Bland
So, if you let the Governor answer the question.
John Wilson
Neutral nations taking sides.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, but I think we can, in a way, and I do hope that those polarisations were somewhat less polarising to the rest of the world, because otherwise it costs so much, even to the economy. Look, we are in the time of post-pandemic. We should have been discussing about how the economy’s being reset, how to create a more quality growth after the pandemic. But because of this military and security issues, suddenly many countries spend much – they allocated much more budget for military spending, for security issues.
We, you know, a few years ago we never thought that’s going to happen. So, I think reducing tension, reducing polarisation is also as important as maintaining balance, and I think without that direction being taken, I think the rest of the world will have – will be redoing what we experience in the 70s, 80s during the Cold War, and I think we, the world, the people like to see more of improvement of our economy, our equality rather than on the issue of security.
Ben Bland
Thanks, and we’re going to go to Anton Alifandi next, who’s going to ask an online question, so, if you could unmute yourself, tell us any affiliation, Anton, and ask your question, please.
Anton Alifandi
Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Pak Anies, for the very informative presentation. I work for S&P Global. I’m originally from Indonesia. I live in London. The Mayor of London sometimes as – the relationship between the Mayor of London and the Prime Minister of the UK is sometimes strained. What’s – how would you describe your relationship with the President? Thank you.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
We’re good friend, number one. We knew each other long, and we have been working together since the beginning of his campaign in 2014, and then we continue to work together. So, I actually benefited from the fact that he was former Governor of Jakarta. Many of the challenges that is happening in Jakarta requires in – policies from National Government. For example, when we’re talking about integrating public transport, I’ll try talk to him, “Pak Joko, we need to integrate all this public transport, and some of are in the hand of National Government, and allow us to manage stations in Jakarta, which station was under the Central Government.” And immediately he said, “Yeah, I remember this problem, when I was a Governor, this is exactly the issue that I had to deal with.” “So, now, Pak, can you help?” “Of course, yes.” So, we actually benefited from the fact that he was former Governor of Jakarta, so, whenever we need the support of National Government, I can visit the former Governor of Jakarta and seek his support. So, it has been a productive relationship, and I think it’s benefited the people of Jakarta that the former Governor is now serving as President, and whenever we have challenge, we can share and we get support.
Ben Bland
Do we have another question in the room? Yeah, maybe the lady here, in the blue.
Brandon
Oh, hi, sorry. Thank you very much, Governor, I have two questions, actually. My name is Brandon and I’m from S-RM. It’s a small risk consultancy based in London, and I’m originally from Singapore, so, neighbours. The digitalisation of services, which is accelerated by COVID, brings about a new breed of risk. What has Indonesia or Jakarta done to protect the citizens’ digital profiles or information? And the second question is, what sort of collaboration is Jakarta aiming for with its RCM partners in order to solve this climate change-related issues?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Can you repeat? I didn’t really pick up the first question.
Brandon
Oh. So, the digitisation of services, i.e., for example, you’ve talked about integrating hawkers into, you know, online platform, obviously brings new risk when it comes to privacy or data protection.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Oh, right.
Brandon
What sort of thing is the Governor of Jakarta doing to address these issues?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Okay, sure. On the first questions, where you got to privacy issues, we actually built a system called Jakarta Satu, One Jakarta, that integrates all databases that used to be managed in a divided way, people working on silos, and we integrated into a single system. However, we seriously put into account the issue of privacy. So, for example, we are working together with the national healthcare system for the insurance system. We would like to have the health informations integrated into our digital smart city.
However, by taking out individual data, single data, so, you – what we have is an integ – is a aggregate numbers. So, instead of – we are able to identify health records for everyone, but we group together, so, in one district, how many have diabetes, how many have TB issues, how many have, you know, the – all kind of diseases? So that our intervention in that region could be adjusted to the exact situation in that area. So, that helps to take care of the privacy issue, often in the area of health, that’s one example.
And then on the second part, with regard to South-East Asia, Jakarta is also the home of ASEAN, the Capital City of ASEAN, and I think we need to do a lot of homework to remind the resident of Jakarta that ASEAN Secretariat is actually in Jakarta, ‘cause so many of us didn’t realise that, and it shows that, you know, in reality ASEAN, in the public discourse, is not as popular as ASEAN in the leadership level. At the leadership level we all said that ASEAN is important, working together as a region is key, but at the people level, I think it’s not yet there. So, Jakarta will continue to serve as the home for ASEAN Secretariat, Capital of ASEAN, but a lot of homeworks to do to make sure that everyone realise that.
Ben Bland
On the question of ASEAN, I just, with some colleagues, conducted a public opinion poll in Indonesia across 33 provinces, I think, 3,000 Indonesians, and we asked people what they thought was the most important international organisation to Indonesia, and actually, the UN came out on top, ahead of ASEAN, which was really interesting, I think.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yes, I’m not surprised.
Ben Bland
Yeah. I think friends at Kemlu and the ASEAN Secretariat weren’t necessarily pleased with the result but, yeah, I think it shows that there’s a public education challenge there for ASEAN.
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
You know, Ben, when we built the MRT lines, North and Southbound, one of the station was across from ASEAN Secretariat. So, I asked the MRT team, name that station ASEAN Station, simply because – for public educations, that every day more than 100,000 people riding MRTs, and then those passengers will realise that, you know, there is an ASEAN Secretariat here, ‘cause I think we need to inform everyone. I think it’s – especially for Indonesia, talking about economic integrations in the region is as challenging as talking about Indonesia integrating its economy across the archipelago.
ASEAN is – there is a mainland ASEAN, and there is a archipelago ASEAN, which is us and the Philippines, and for a country like Indonesia, making sure that our economy is integrated is as complex as talking about ASEAN economic integration.
Ben Bland
Well, it’s a good thing that London didn’t have a European Union station, ‘cause they would have had to close it down, which wouldn’t have been great for the people living or working there. We’re almost out of time, but I did want to ask one last question, about democracy. Across the world there’s a concern about democracy backsliding, I think that concern is real in Indonesia as well as other places, and also a growing frustration, I guess, people think that maybe democracy isn’t delivering for the people. So, what’s been your experience? I mean, for Indonesia this is the second experiment with democracy, if you like. Do you think it’s working?
Anies Rasyid Baswedan
Yeah, well, first let me address on that issue, there is this democracy regime and non-democracy. The pillars for democracy is trust. The pillars for non-democracy is fear. Without fear non-democracy fall apart, and without trust democracy will not be functioning, so, trust is key for democracy to function, and how do we strengthen trust? Making sure that democracy delivers, making sure the democratic process fulfil the requirements of good governance, transparency, minimum – you know, no corruptions. That’s strengthening the pillars of democracy, which is trust. And I think, in our experience in Indonesia, having regional autonomy and democratisations taking place simultaneously was very helpful. Had democratisation took place without decentralisations, then the distance between voters and policymakers, between voters and delivery of policy will be so far away.
But having decentralisations, regional autonomy, it has shortened the distance between policymakers and the public. So, for us, Indonesia having local elections everywhere, it has made public understand what does it mean, being involved in a political process. You will elect good leaders, you have experienced better cities, better regencies, and we have champions of local leaders that have made public believe that democracy is important.
On the other hand, what was still our challenge is corruption, because, you know, that has eroded trust within democratic process. So, combating corruptions is still a big challenge in Indonesia, and if we are able to address that, and if I put it in the larger topics, rule of law, then we will see democratic consolidations going on the right directions. But I must say that, so, with all the noises, democracy is functioning quite well in Indonesia, and when we talk about electoral process, the losing parties is always key to sustainability of democracy. If losing party fail to accept election result, we – you are going to see, you know, a continuous problem. We – so far, we have elections, direct election Local Government. By now it’s 17 years since it started in 2005, so, it’s been 17 years and whenever people go out for local elections, they see the result, the losing party often challenging the result. Where do they challenge the result? They go to the court. When the Judge decide, they go home, happily or not happily, but they all go home.
Imagine if the qui – if the challenging is taking place on the street. That’s chaos, we don’t experience that. The fact that people challenge through the court, it shows the respect for institutions, the respect for proper process, so on that aspect I’m optimist. Our challenge again, making sure delivery is there, and corruptions and rule of law is presence. With that, democracy and its pillar, trust, will be standard.
Ben Bland
Well, that’s a really positive note to end on. So, thanks, everyone, for coming and for tuning in online, and do join me in giving a round of applause to the Governor for a great [applause] discussion today.
