How will India–UK relations reset post-elections?

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

So, I think we can get started. Thank you all for joining this event on the India-UK relationship. My name is Dr Chietigj Bajpaee. I’m the Senior Research Fellow for South Asia at Chatham House. So, this time last year, External Affair – Indian External Affairs Minister, S. Jaishankar was visiting the UK for Diwali and he had made remarks in which he noted the “unrealised potential of the India-UK relationship” and the “need to seek new convergences.” We’ve since had elections in both countries, a new Labour Government elected in Westminster and the Modi Government re-elected for a third consecutive term in New Delhi.

So, to discuss the outlook for the India-UK relationship, we have an excellent palen – panel of speakers with us today. I’m seated next to Lord Karan Bilimoria. Lord Bilimoria, of course, is known to many as the Founder of Cobra Beer. Unfortunately, we will not be serving Cobra Beers at this evening’s event. But he’s also, in many ways, I would say, an architect of the India-UK relationship. He’s served as the Founding Chairman of the UK-India Business Council. He has served as a founding member of the Prime Minister of India’s Global Advisory Council, among many other roles and affiliations.

Seated next to him is Baroness Usha Prashar, who has led FICCI, which is the Federation of the Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry, as the Inaugural Chairperson of the FICCI’s UK Council. Seated next to him is – her is Ben Mellor, who is the Director for India and the Indian Ocean Directorate at the UK – at UK FCDO, which is the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office. And then, finally, we have Shehla Hasan, who serves as the UK Director and Head of the Confederation of Indian Industry.

So, the way this event will be structured is we’ll have a moderated discussion for the first 40-45 minutes, before we then open up to questions from all of you. This event is on the record and it is being recorded. So, on that note, perhaps I can first turn to you, Ben, on, you know, the Labour Government really appears to have hit the ground running with its relationship with India. We saw Foreign Secretary David Lammy’s visit to India within the first month in office. We’ve seen several initiatives being unveiled, the Technology Security Initiative, for instance. We’ve seen the announcement of the first overseas campus of the UK university is set to open next year. And then, of course, there was last week’s announcement the UK will be handing over sovereignty of the Chagos Islands to Mauritius. So, what, in your view, are some of the key priorities of the Labour Government with respect to India? Where do you see areas of continuity and maybe potential change from previous Conservative Governments?

Ben Mellor

Yeah, thank you, Chietigj and thank you for – to Chatham House for hosting us and hosting this discussion. As you said, I think it’s a really good moment to have the discussion and I think it is – and it’s exactly a question that the new government, and it is still a new government, here in the UK, is continuing to ask itself, as we’re working out what are the priorities? What are the important things that the government can do?

I am representing, by the way, Minister West, who would’ve hoped to come along and at a future occasion, I hope that she can come along and speak to Chatham House and set out the formed view. So, this is very much the, sort of, early take on where the government is putting its priorities, and I’ll pick out five areas that are already established as being key priorities.

Two of them are the two bits that were in the Labour Party manifesto. Firstly, the commitment to completing the negotiation of the free trade agreement. When you mentioned the fact the Foreign Secretary had visited Delhi in his first month as Foreign Secretary and when he was there, he talked about the fact that the FTA was “the floor, not the ceiling, of our ambitions, but getting the floor established is important before you start working where the ceiling can be.” So, the first thing was a mutually beneficial free trade agreement between our two countries.

And the second commitment within the manifesto was to a new and deeper, comprehensive strategic partnership between the UK and India, and again, that is something that the Foreign Secretary was able to discuss with Prime Minister Modi and Dr Jaishankar when he was in Delhi. And really strong sense from the Indian side – you mentioned ‘continuity’ and ‘change’, and we may come back in the discussion to reflect on where we got to with the previous Roadmap that was agreed by Prime Minister Johnson with Prime Minister Modi. But the idea that we can take this further into this comprehensive and strategic partnership is something that I think is a really important part of that building of trust-based relationship between the UK and India.

The next three are perhaps more still at the stage of aspiration, but just to give a broad sense of the direction that we see the relationship going in. Firstly, the government absolutely recognises the importance of the people-to-people links. It is the USP of the UK-India relationship, compared to many of our friends and colleagues around the world. And the government which talks about re-engaging with – internationally re-engaging, obviously, with Europe, but also re-engaging internationally, is very much about building those – on those people-to-people links and sees the important relationship with India in that light.

I’m always very nervous with Karan on the panel, to mention any other university other than Birmingham, which, as he knows, I’m an alumni of myself. But the University of Southampton, you didn’t name check, and I should name check, but an important, sort of, step in terms of turning that concept of the living bridge into something with the University of Southampton opening a campus in India. That’s a real positive step forward. Birmingham hard – fast behind, as I’m sure.

The second area that I would mention, a particularly important area for the Foreign Secretary, is around climate and nature. That’s also an area which is one of the key missions for the government as a whole and something the Foreign Secretary has prioritised. And a real sense that when we look at how the UK and India work together and how we look at the, sort of, growth opportunities, that it’s sustainable growth, it’s green growth and all those opportunities that exist for us to work together on mutually supportive climate investments. But also, to look at how India and the UK can play that leading role internationally through the COP process, through working together in partnership around climate and nature work in the Global South and can really start to push more aggressively into that area.

And then, the final – the third area that I would highlight is technology and security. You mentioned the launch of the TSI, the Technology and Security Initiative, that was agreed during that July visit. Very much following in the model of US-India in terms of iCET and actually, setting out how – sending a signal very strongly to both – to UK and to Indian stakeholders to say that we are keen to see collaboration in the technology and in the security areas, areas like telecoms, early starters in that. So, I would say two areas that we’re absolutely nailed on, the FTA and the CSP. Three areas of aspiration where we need to start setting out what that means, climate and nature, people and people and technology and security.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Excellent. I think – I mean, we’ll come back to some of these and maybe drill down in more detail, but I perhaps wanted to take a step back and turn to you, Lord Bilimoria. I mean, you, I think, in many ways, have had a front row seat to the evolution of the India-UK relationship. You’ve accompanied several UK Prime Ministers on their visits to India, from Tony Blair to David Cameron. So, you know, how do you see the evolution of the relationship? What do you see as some of the key accomplishments, maybe some of the areas where, I want – I don’t want to say, where – that are failures, but areas where further progress is required, or have not been as successful?

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Yes. Firstly, a pleasure to be here at Chatham House and thank you for hosting us. I’ve just been appointed as the Co-Chair of the newly formed India All-Party Parliamentary Group in this new Parliament. We used to have two groups. We’ve now made it into one group, and it’s a huge focus. We’re having, you know, our first Parliamentary event for Parliamentarians and the interest is huge. So, it just shows that everyone is looking at India.

Now, my starting point in this was as an individual, I see myself completely and utterly Indo-British. I was born in India, brought up in India. I feel entirely at home in India. I go there several times a year and I feel entirely at home over here. And my whole mission has always been to put the two countries together, whether I’ve done it through my business, Cobra Beer, or whether I’ve done it through the life that I live. And 21 years ago, I was appointed as the Co-Chair of the Indo-British Partnership from the UK side and Narayana Murthy, the Founder of Infosys, was my Co-Chair on the Indian side, followed by Sunil Mittal. And isn’t it amazing that Narayana Murthy’s son-in-law became Prime Minister here? He asked me ten years ago, “Look, my son-in-law’s going to join Parliament. Could you keep an eye on him?” I did my best. And of course, now, Sunil Mittal, my friend who I was with this weekend, is going to be buying almost 25% of British Telecom.

So, the two countries have come a long way in these 25 years, but what I will say, and I will say this absolutely frankly, from the delegations that I went on with Tony Blair in 2005, then followed by Gordon Brown, followed by David Cameron twice, those – that was the peak of our relationship and our impact on India. When we would take plane loads of Cabinet Ministers, business leaders, university leaders, the press, and go to India and make an impact, do deals, build friendships. It’s gone downhill since then.

Theresa May’s delegation in 2016, November, was a disaster. It was really bad. She said the wrong things. We told her not to. She wouldn’t listen, and we haven’t had a Prime Ministerial delegation since then. Rishi Sunak, Indian origin Prime Minister, huge disappointment. He should’ve done – well, in his position, the first thing I would’ve done is make an impact in India. Didn’t take a single delegation to India. Boris Johnson’s excuse was pandemic. Wasn’t really an excuse. I was there once. I was one of two Indians, two people from the UK over there.

So, I think we’ve got to do a lot more. We’ve got to make that impact. The energy has got to come, and the good news is David Lammy, even before the elections, at the India Global Forum event, he said, “India’s going to be a priority for me.” And I’ve met him a couple of times in the last week, in fact, yesterday as well, and he said, “India is a priority for me,” and of course, he went straight out to India. So, that commitment is being shown by David Lammy. I don’t know any of you know, he told me one if his great gran – his great grandmother’s Indian, of Indian origin, yeah. So, he, you know, so he, I know, genuinely believes in it.

So, I think the attitude’s got to change and linked to that, Ben mentioned ‘people-to-people’. It is so important for people-to-people. Our diaspora over here, of which I’m a proud member, is the most successful ethnic minority diaspora in this country. It’s done phenomenally well. The bridge that we have with India is great, but the negative anti-immigration, anti-international students, sentiments of the past government really were not helpful in our relationship with India, I know that.

Leading dele – University of Birmingham delegations to India, literally that it was, “Why are we not welcome in the UK?” And they were trying to take away the two-year post-graduation work visa, for example, which I fought so hard to introduce in 2007/2008. Luckily, we managed to keep it. So, I think that has got to change and I think will change with this new government, but I hope there will not be an anti-immigration, anti-international student sentiment.

So, I’m hopeful and the reality is India is going to be the fastest growing major economy in the world for years to come and will – and I’ve always made this prediction, by 2016 India will be the largest economy in the world. That’s my belief. So, we’ve got to partner with this country that is on its way, not only as an economic superpower, but as an actual superpower in the way that China and the United States are today.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Baroness Prashar, perhaps building on Lord Bilimoria’s comments, I mean, how do you think shifts in the broader, maybe geopolitical, environment has impacted the India-UK relationship, both in terms of the – some of the achievements or impediments that Lord Bilimoria referred to?

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Well, can I, first of all, say thank you for organising this very timely discussion and I’m very pleased to see the comments made by Ben about really, the things which are under consideration. I think, from my point of view, while the FTA is, of course, a very important element in these discussions, I think we’ve got to look at it beyond the FTA. And I’m glad that they are looking at a new comprehensive strategic relationship, because the one that was agreed in 2030 was indeed ambitious and very comprehensive.

I think some progress has been made in that direction, not least, you know, what you mentioned, the new Technology Security Initiative which was agreed in July. Progress is made on some of the issues to do with climate and particularly on education and I think we’ve seen a real focus on education. And of course, you mentioned Southampton, and someone who has – was the Deputy Chair of British Council, I’ve been following very closely what priority has been given in the education field in terms of building that relationship.

But as you said yourself, that there’s a ‘potential’ to be ‘realised’ and I think the three issues that you mentioned are quite important. And I do think that the geopolitical shifts means that we have to look at this relationship from a very strategic perspective. One area really is that India’s changing, wanting to become the voice of the Global South and I think that’s quite important strategically for the UK, because UK’s relationship with the Global South is going to be quite critical. And I think UK’s tilt towards the Indo-Pacific is an important element too, because the fact that Britain joined AUKUS and actually, has a dialogue with ASEAN, all that means is that his presence is now important. And the fact that UK has changed its shift from China to the Indo-Pacific means that these relationships are becoming increasingly important.

So, I think it’s very timely to begin to look at all these geopolitical shifts that are taking place and what they actually mean. Now, you talked about the people-to-people relationships and of course, they are very important, because in the way those relationships enable and build that bridge very strongly. But I think at the same time, through that people-to-people relationship, we have to begin to understand how India is changing and how UK is changing, because India, of course, it’s becoming an important economy, it’s becoming more confident. It sees itself as the voice of the Global South, not just in words, but in terms of the initiatives it’s taking. And therefore, I think it’s big – it’s important to understand what that actually means and how important India then becomes for the UK. So, I think understanding the broader context is very important. Now, obviously, people like myself, you know, are deeply committed to that relationship because I think it’s not just the fact that we have that emotional attachment. To me, I think strategically, it’s a very important relationship and if I may put it rather grandly, it’s good for humanity, because if these two countries come together in terms of making a difference.

So, I think that that’s going to be quite important and in terms of the impediments, I also would, frankly, say that the people-to-people relationships, you know, can itself be as – is a, kind of, a positive and it has a negative, because you can begin to view that relationship purely through the eyes of the diaspora. And therefore, it can bring a narrower focus. So, I think it’s very important to broaden that and to see, you know, what does it actually mean? Because if you read very carefully what is being said by Jaishankar in particular, and his book, “India’s Way” is a really good insight that – how India is actually wanting to build a foreign policy based on its own civilisation values, right? And therefore, understanding that, and it’s through that dialogue with people-to-people, we will begin to get a much more sophisticated relationship.

So, I think that’s what I would like to see, and of course, the FTA would make an enormous difference, but I think the geopolitical shifts and the way that we are getting into a multipolar world where the global architecture of the eight decades is beginning to wane, I think we got to look at what are the areas that we need to actually build on? And I think technology, innovation, defence, are very, very important aspects of it. And I think the security of the Indo-Pacific, the Indian Ocean, means that these relationships will now have to be very pragmatic. We would have to think very seriously where the alliances are actually built.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

I think all very good points and we will come back to some of the issues that you raised on the strategic dimensions, but I wanted to turn to you, Shehla, on this issue about the people-to-people relationship. You know, looking at the relationship through the lens of business, for people-to-people interactions, you know, how do you assess the contributions that are being made by Indian businesses or students or the tourism industry, tourist to the UK economy?

Shehla Raza Hasan

Well, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me here. It’s fantastic to be here and to be speaking. And if you ask me, you know, the time is actually right to be representing India anywhere in the world now, because we know the dynamics are changing and today, between the UK and India, it’s truly reflective of a 21st Century partnership. It is an equal partnership in which India is on the negotiating table as an equal partner. I think we need to remember that and we need to understand how, you know, the achievements that India – Indian economy has made over the last few years, how those can be leveraged to get benefits into the UK.

As far as business is concerned, some of you may be aware that we take out a tracker with Grant Thornton. The CII takes out a tracker and in 2024, we had almost 2% increase in number of Indian companies in the UK, but there was a 35% increase in revenue and almost 12% increase in jobs created and a 24% increase in corporate tax paid. So, Indian will – like, every year, the growth of corporate tax paid by Indian businesses to the UK Government rises exponentially. So, it was almost 25% last year. And the combined turnover of Indian companies is around 69 billion and the employment is around 120,000 employees of Indian companies in Britain. So, this is out of only the 971 subsidiaries of Indian companies, but if you’re looking at joint ventures, if you’re looking at, you know, sole proprietorships, the number is much more.

So, all this, even without an FTA being signed, so you can imagine the potential that will be unlocked should there be an FTA. So, there is a keen interest from both sides, both businesses, that the FTA is going to add significantly to the GDPs of both countries. And Indian’s are making their mark in many ways. In a way, you know, I don’t even need to say how mainstreamed Indians are, simply because our last Prime Minister was Indian origin, but, you know, we have found that 71% of homeowners in the UK are Indian origin people. 34-36% of educated and professional occupation numbers are the Indian diaspora, along with the Chinese. So, we are neck-to-neck with Chinese, but as far as property is concerned, we have beaten the Chinese, at 71% and they are at 56%. Over a quarter of study visas from the UK went to Indians last year and every year, Indian students contribute almost £4.3 billion to the British economy.

So, this is, kind of, completely – you know, this is a huge success stories which not many of us who are Indian origin even know. So, this is something that we need to spread that awareness and, you know, just get that even without an FTA. So, when Baroness Prashar speaks about going ‘beyond the FTA’, I think that’s what it is, because even without the FTA, there’s a huge lot which Indian companies, Indian businesses, Indian professionals are contributing to the British economy.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Thank you for that. I mean, if I can play Devil’s advocate for a moment. I mean, despite the very positive outlook for the India-UK relationship that all of you have painted, I mean, despite these longstanding bonds of a common language and legal system and longstanding historical linkages, it seems to me that the UK has fallen down India’s priority relationships. I mean, even in Europe, one could argue that it’s not the UK, but it’s France, which India’s key strategic partner, at least in terms of defence co-operation. So, if I could ask you, Lord Bilimoria, I mean, what do you think it will take to move the India-UK relationship to the next level, to upgrade that relationship?

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Yes, I mean, the point made about the FTA, I mean, of course we all want the FTA to conclude, but, you know, who is the UK’s biggest trading partner by far as a single country? It’s the United States of America. We don’t have an FTA with the United States of America, but we have phenomenal trade with the United States of America both ways. In fact, we have a trade surplus with the United States of America. I hope the FTA comes through. We must do our best to make sure it comes through.

But it goes back to what I was saying at the beginning. I mean, how do you think I feel? Being of Indian origin, what tends to happen is meetings in India with my counterparts, they’re very open with me. They know they can be very frank with me, and I’ve been told, “What are you doing? The French are doing much more than you are.” How do you think it feels when somebody tells you that? And I remember the efforts that we made. We have not made the efforts. That’s the reality and it needs to come from the top, and that’s why there’s been a lack of it for all these years. And that priority has got to be there, it’s got to be driven from the Prime Minister, from the Foreign Secretary, all the way through government and the effort’s got to take place.

And – because it’s – it is – David Cameron was the one who said, “It’s a global race.” We are competing with – and companies like Korea, South Korea has huge business in India, huge investment in India. It’s not just European countries and not just Americans. So, it’s got to be that attitude, and I think we need to do much more, we need to prioritise it. We used to have, for example, Ben’s Former Minister, Tariq Ahmad, had the India Advisory Council, which was a good move. We need to continue initiatives like that. We used to have the UK-India Roundtable. Usha, were you a member of the UK-India Roundtable? That was bringing all parts of both countries, Authors, business, university leaders, both High Commissioners, both Culture Ministers at each other’s – everyone round the table discussing security, education, movement of people. That roundtable was disbanded in 2014, ten years ago.

And I thought – I said, “Is this something because there’s been a change of government in India?” Sushma Swaraj, the Foreign Minister at the time in India, even asked me to give a list of names to reform the roundtable on both sides. So, I gave her Indian names, UK names, it didn’t happen. I then realised it was our High Commissioner at the time who didn’t want to continue the roundtable. I mean, what a ridiculous thing to have happened. So, it was from our side that the roundtable has been discontinued for teven year – ten years. That roundtable, by the way, the outcome of that was the UK-India Research Initiative, UKIERI, which is now, is it Ben, in phase IV?

Ben Mellor

Hmmm.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Phenomenal success, partnering Academics between both countries in projects that’s going – that came out of the roundtable. Teach First, a great programme over here, Teach For India started out of the UK-India roundtable, which is a huge programme in India, in the way that Teach First is over here. The two-year post-graduation work visa which I initiated was after a roundtable meeting, I brought it up in Parliament and we now have this two-year post-graduation work visa for all international students, including for Indians. Came out of the roundtable; disbanded. We’ve just got to up our game and make India a top priority, because we’re in this global race.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Baroness Prashar, you know, building on that, you know, if we compare the India-UK relationship to say, the India-US relationship, we can see the India-US relationship has gone from strength-to-strength over the last three decades. And perhaps one reason for this is both countries, US and India, tend to view each other through this strategic or geopolitical lens. Particularly in Washington, there’s a tendency to, rightly or wrongly, view India as some sort of bulwark against the rise of China and that is facilitated to a high degree of bipartisan consensus in Washington, interagency co-ordination, high level of senior level interaction. I mean, my question is, first, do you think this is lacking in the case of the UK and if so, why? And…

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

I would say it is lacking and I will repeat what I said earlier, because I think we can’t just view the relationship between UK and India through the diaspora lens only. It has to be strategic and of course, they have put a very focused effort in the change that we’ve seen in the USA and India relationship. But obviously, in terms of defence, you know, its structures are different because, you know, I’s government controlled, but I think there are lessons to be learnt in terms of how do we focus on making that actually work?

From my point of view, it’s not having one particular forum. It’s really, we need to begin to build relationships at a government-to-government level, at think tank level, because, you know, there are not very many think tanks in the UK who’ve actually taken India as a serious strategic look. Because, you know, if we look at the analysis, I mean, Chatham House, in itself, hasn’t spent that amount of, you know, time in looking at it strategically. And if you look at other think tanks, as well, and the same would apply in terms of – and the education, I think, with it, is more collaboration you’re beginning to see. You’re beginning to see some changes in the health sector.

Now, I, therefore, remain realistic and also, hopeful that if we shift from just looking at it through just the FTA lens – because it has been a steady, as we said, a steady relationship and that will continue, because, you know, there was a recent report I read that, you know, UK remains an attractive destination for Indian businesses. You know, that will continue. But I think to take it to the next level, we have to begin to see what shifts are taking place and where the areas of collaboration are, and from my point of view, you know, the Global South is a factor. India’s strategic position, UK’s relationship is important, and the other area is technology and innovation. Because although people talk about, you know, the West’s currency is declining, but we’ve got to recognise that West still is very important. And therefore, no other country has succeeded without having a relationship with the West, if you look at Japan.

So, the same would apply to India and I think India and the UK recognise that. And I think what Jaishankar said last year, “We’ve got to look at convergences to see, where do we collaborate?” So, is there strategic collaboration on areas which really matter? And I think they have been identified. You know, we’ve looked at defence, cybersecurity, climate, and, you know, we’re – and things are beginning to happen. But there is some heavy lifting to be done in terms of making it more focused, much more dialogue and therefore, as I said the word ‘sophisticated’ in terms of a lot. You know, we can’t just think in terms of delegations, you know. They are important, but at the same time, I think long-term deepening of relationships are extremely important.

And the other thing which I really would like to emphasise, that if you’re going to get strategic and sophisticated, UK has got to begin to understand how India’s mindset is changing. I made reference that India is trying to locate its foreign policy, its civilisation values, right? Which is quite important, whereas it may be seen that India is being too independent and elusive, but I think if you understand that, then you will build a different kind of relationship with India. And I think in the same way, we’ve got to recognise how Britain is changing and what Britain’s needs are, because in a way, Britain’s been through its own traumas, you know, both politically and, you know, through Brexit and so on. And that has had implications in terms of how these relationships will actually develop.

So, you’re absolutely right, I think we’ve got to begin to be really quite strategic in this and I would like to see think tanks here doing a lot more work and deeper thinking on these issues. Because if you look at the Indo-Pacific area, I mean, there are things happening there and India’s importance, its currency has increased, because, you know, of China’s threat. And I think there is thinking going on, I mean, I’m involved in the [inaudible – 33:33] foundation. There’s, you know, thinking going on, you know, what should be the policy? How we should be linking with those things. That’s the kind of thinking that needs to happen and I very much hope that the Foreign Office itself is doing that kind of thinking and not looking at it purely, you know, in terms of short-term gains.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Well, I will say that in my year at Chatham House, I have tried to raise India as a priority and view it through a more…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Well, yeah.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

…strategic lens, and so – but that’s – it’s obviously, still a work in progress.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

But this is why I was really glad you organised this and you’re doing it…

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Yes.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

…you see, because – but it’s recent.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

No, I agree. Ben, if I can turn to you. I mean, on this issue that Baroness Prashar raised about raising the relationship up to the, you know, the next level. If we look at the 2030 Roadmap that was concluded back in 2021, you know, these five pillars were identified: people-to-people, trade, defence, climate and health. They’re obviously all important, but is there a need to, potentially, reframe the relationship through, you know, the both – the prism of both countries’ broader foreign policy priorities? So, whether it be, as we heard, India’s engagement with the Global South or the UK’s Indo-Pacific tilt, or both countries’ relations with third parties, so whether it be the US or Russia or China, or others?

Ben Mellor

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s right. I also might just pick up a couple of points…

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Sure.

Ben Mellor

…that Baroness and Lord Bilimoria have mentioned. I mean, I think, you know, one – I think this id – this issue about being very clear eyed about the relationship is really important, on both sides. And I think, you know, the more we do to build on that – that’s why I was talking about the living bridge, it’s got to be for a purpose. And part of that purpose, be it through the academic links, be it through the think tank links, as you mentioned – I’m struck. You – Lord Bilimoria always reminds me of how many people went with David Cameron, and – but I’m also struck that we haven’t had Prime Minister Modi in the UK since 2015, I think. When we had the Defence Minister here earlier in the year, or was it the end of last year? And that was 20 years…

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Yeah.

Ben Mellor

…since we’d had an Indian Defence Minister in the UK. Now, these are steps that are positive, that we can get the Defence Minister over here. We need to continue to maintain that. As you said, we got the Foreign Secretary to visit. It has to be a two-way piece and we have to be very clear eyed on both sides to understand that – I will say something about the strategic benefit to the UK of the India relationship, but there is also – it’s demonstrating the strategic benefit to India of the UK relationship, which I think it’s still very strong.

And if I think about the priorities of the government here, looking beyond purely the India brief, when we talk about things like restoring stability, when we talk about the issues of how the UK is re-engaging with our European partners, when we talk about a UK that is proud to be both Euro-Atlanticist and an active participant in the Indo-Pacific, these are things which actually, if you’re looking at it from Dr Jaishankar’s perspective, I hope you would be clear eyed and see benefits for the – for India in engaging. And we need to be making that case and to be setting that out.

Look, in terms of the development from a Roadmap to a comprehensive strategic partnership, I mean, it – at the moment, it’s still a little bit old wine in new bottles if we’re not careful. And we have to be really clear that there is something – the Roadmap did do a really good service. I’m proud of the work that the UK and Indian sides did in delivering a lot of good stuff under the Roadmap and I think what it did is start to do what we’ve all actually been talking about, which is building trust back into the government-to-government relationship. And with trust comes confidence for investors that they can in – and so on. So, the Roadmap would – but it was, effectively, a series of individual initiatives put together into a roadmap. That’s how we constructed it on both sides.

And I think by developing – by deliberating setting our ambition higher and calling it a comprehensive strategic partnership, the ambition is there to take those initiatives and put it together into something which steps out into that geostrategic space. Whether we will succeed in doing that, I – you know, that is the challenge we have set ourselves on both sides and I think it is something that – you know, I look at the other strategic partnerships that India has and a lot of them are frankly just labels, though some of them are real and meaningful and those are the ones that we should aspire to be. From the UK’s perspective, I’m not content to have something that is simply signed off by two Prime Ministers. It has to be something that will make a big difference, will create jobs in India, will create jobs in the UK and make a meaningful difference to people’s lives.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

But – and I think they want to give credit. I mean, they have – as you rightly said, “Some progress has been made on the comprehensive strategic partnership and even if it’s the ambition, at least, and the – and it’s rooted, as you say, in the clear eyed realities and knowing what it means, I think it is, in itself, quite an important step.

Ben Mellor

Absolutely, absolutely. No, you can’t do that without the facilities.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

No, absolutely.

Ben Mellor

Agreed.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Shehla, if I could come to you. I mean, the FTA has come up several times and obviously, the negotiations are still ongoing. We’ve had, I think, 14 round of negotiations since 2022 and consensus has reportedly been reached on most of the 26 chapters. Could you elaborate a bit on, you know, what impact do you think that the FTA will really have on upgrading or enhancing interactions between both countries?

Shehla Raza Hasan

So, the FTA would be – most Indian businesses are looking forward is, you know, about being able to invest into the UK, but I think the – most benefits really come from – to the British side because of the ease of doing business. Because the British Government themselves, they had advised the Indian Government about, you know, tweaking laws so that the ease of business – ease of doing business became better. So, I think a lot of those obstacles would be, you know, gotten rid of – or in – on both sides. So, that’s one and the other one was about direct selling into India, like, for example, the Scotch whisky import tariffs, you know. So, it’s als – it’s about both. It’s about non-tariff barriers, as well as tariff barriers, on both countries.

So, I just – I don’t want to pick out any particular instance, but I guess, you know, it’s just the impediments of doing business and regulations standing in the way of doing better business. I think businesses are looking forward to getting rid of them through the FTA.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

I will open up to questions shortly, but I wanted to see if I could squeeze in perhaps one or two more of my own. And this is not directed at any specific – any one of you – any or all of you. Feel free to weigh in on these – this – these questions. But I have a question about the so-called ‘living bridge’, you know, the diaspora linkages. Yeah, this is seen as a source of strength. We’ve seen several – the rise of several ethnic Indians to prominent positions in government and civil society and business here in the UK, including several of you. But I think we’ve also seen the flipside of this, when we saw the downturn in India-Canada relations that took place last year. We’ve seen violence on the streets of Leicester between British Hindu and Muslim communities, which to some degree, demonstrated how geopolitical tensions can spillover onto the streets of the UK.

So, obviously, the diaspora is a source of strength, but my question is, to what degree is it also seen as a potential area of concern in the India-UK relationship? And any of you, feel free to weigh in with your own thoughts on that.

Ben Mellor

As a non-member of the diaspora, maybe I’ll have the first crack at it.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Sure.

Ben Mellor

I mean, look, the – I think we should be very clear in separating two different things there. I think, I mean, the re – the issue of communal tensions is – and this is a conversation that I have regularly with the Government of India, it is an issue that is of concern within the UK. We should all be really concerned about the rioting that took place over the summer. There are forces within the UK who are not – who are opposed, antithetical, to the UK’s values and to the UK’s way of living and that is something that needs to be addressed firmly, as this government did over the summer. And the fact that in somewhat time – some – you know, you talked about Leicester, there’s an inquiry into Leicester so I can’t – we shouldn’t prejudge the outcome to that inquiry. But some narratives that have been imposed upon it have not, frankly, been all that helpful in terms of the – whether it’s an internal issue or an external issue and I think we need to be careful about how we play that.

That’s my, sort of, health warning on it. That said, I absolutely agree with you that the – there is a double-edged sword to the relationship between the UK and India, which is about our history as much as about our current world. And that is absolutely something that we need to be upfront and honest about. Today our High Commissioner to India is in Amritsar. She’s going to Jallianwala Bagh, she’s going to the Golden Temple. These are places which are part of the complicated history of the UK and India and it’s entirely right that we confront those and we talk about those things, as well as all the positive things. I’m a massive – I think everybody on this panel, we’re here because we’re India optimists and we’re optimists about the UK-India relationship. But none of us would admit that there aren’t those elements of complication.

And I think that, you know, there are things which the – so, taking it out of the history and putting it into the contemporary, there are things which India will do which the Government of the UK will disagree with and there are things that the UK Government does that the Government of India will disagree with. And the trick, why I talked earlier about a trust-based relationship, is that we need to get ourselves in the situation where we are able to pass comment on each other, a debate in the Westminster Hall or whatever, without a massive reaction from The Times of India about interfering in your country. It’s about the fact that as friends, we talk to each other. We don’t necessarily agree on everything, but we are prepared to state where there’s issues. That’s where we end up, hopefully. We’re not quite there yet.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Hmmm hmm.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

After you.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

No, no, no, please.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

I think you’re right in saying that the issues of diaspora is a double-edged sword and that’s what I was trying to imply earlier. And I think it’s complicated by the fact that India has had a policy in terms of working with the diaspora, not just here, but across the world. But here also, to some extent, over the years, Politicians have tended to look at communities, you know, community voting. And therefore, that ex – to some extent, I think, has actually led to what I call vulcanisation of communities. And you’re right about building trust, but I think we have to, sort of, again, shift the way we look at it. We got to, sort of, decouple foreign policy relationships from domestic community issues, and I think that requires a firm leadership on both sides and an understanding of how we will handle that. ‘Cause if we do not do that, I think we will actually complicate relations more.

And my view, really, is as people continue to live here, while, as I say, we all are very proud of our heritage, but it’s a question of a commitment and ultimately, what matters to people here is what matters to everybody else. And I do worry, you know, when they say, “We are interested in India” and they will go to a temple to illustrate that. Now, that’s the sort of message, whereas interest in India should be much more strategic. So, I think it’s something to do with the approach that we’ve had which complicates matters and I think we’ve got to be – begin to be honest about that.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

I know we want to open it up to questions. I’ll make a very quick point.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Sure, indeed.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Ben’s mentioned ‘trust’, Usha, you mentioned ‘trust’. You know, one of my Harvard Business School Professors in the pandemic did a one-hour virtual lecture, Frances Frei, on trust, and I’ll summarise that in less than one minute. And she said, “Trust – to get trust from people, it’s a like triangle. You’ve got to be authentic, you’ve got to have the logic and the capability to deliver what you’re promising too, and you’ve got to have empathy. Are you in it for yourself or are you in it for them?

And if you look at trust between the UK and India, you’ve got this tiny country here of less than 70 million people and you’ve got the largest country in the world in population, of 1.4 billion people. You’ve got the sixth largest economy in the world here and the fifth largest, India, soon to be the third largest, and I’d say the largest. Completely different. Our per capita income is many times’ India. So, India’s got a job not only to grow as GDP, but to grow per capita GDP. That’s the most important thing India’s got to do. So, you’ve got those challenges, but yet, you’ve got to have mutual trust and respect between the two countries. And if you look at it from India’s point of view looking it, and I’m telling you – I’m playing back what I hear from business leaders in India, Senior Officials in India, Government Officials in India, and they say, “What have you been doing, you great country, over the last eight years since Brexit, what have you done to yourselves?”

I mean, just think about it, I mean, Brexit, what a mistake. I mean, if I ask all of you, how many of you think Brexit was a huge mistake and an act of self-harm for this country? Can I just see a show of hands? Every – it’s 99% in ev – thank you. You know, they – it was a mistake. We were the gateway to the EU for India. This was the gateway, and we have five Prime Ministers in eight years. What a mess politically. One who lasted 49 days. So, this is the opportunity to reset. This is the opportunity for this country to get some stability, to get some respect back in and then have that mutual trust and respect between our two countries, which is absolutely essential. And we’ve got to respect India with all its challenges, its potential and as Usha said, we’ve got to un – have that deep understanding. And when you have that, then it’s unbelievable what our potential is, because we still have a lot to offer as this country. Otherwise, why would my friend, Sunil Mittal, be investing billions to buy 25% of BT if he didn’t believe in this country? So…

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

I think we’ll need to organise a separate event on the Brexit debate, but on that note, let’s open up for questions. So, if I call on you, please mention your name and affiliation and do make it a short and sharp question and not a long-winded statement, if you don’t want me to cut you off. And those of you joining online, just feel free to type your questions in the Q&A box and I will read them on your behalf. Yes, please, go ahead.

Peter Price

Oh, you’re looking at me? Peter Price, former Member of the European Parliament. I want to ask about the free trade relationship negotiations. I’ve heard that the most likely reason why they might break down is over entry to the UK in all sorts of categories and the obstructions in the way of that. Is that true? How significant, at the end of the day, is the free trade agreement itself as compared with the strategic partnerships that you’ve talked about and the various other things? Can you unpack the free trade agreement aspect of the relationship in comparison with the other factors?

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Shehla, would you like to go first, or others, or…?

Shehla Raza Hasan

Well, most of the free trade agreement negotiations are confidential and they are government-to-government. So, whatever we know are from the press reports that are publicly available. I believe that, you know, most of – well, we were having a discussion today and a lot of it also is about British companies benefitting more because Indian companies have been here for a long time, and they are doing business as – which is – as und – they’re on an equal – they’re treated like British companies. But I think there – in India, there is a bit of a distinction between a foreign company and an Indian company and what the free trade agreement is trying to do is to break a – break down that discrimination. And it’s not exactly discrimination, but being treated little differently, not like an Indian company, but perhaps as a foreign company. So, a free trade agreement will try and smoothen out those wrinkles that are there in that relationship. That’s all I can say, and of course, you know, the import tariff on Scotch whisky is, I think, hun – over 150%, so, you know – and India, as you know, is the largest consumer of that beverage, so we are the largest market. So, I think it makes a lot of sense to bring that down, so I think that’s one of the things that might be a good outcome.

But a lot of it is – you know, we are talking about CBAM, we are talking about mobility of professionals. Like, what India wants from the UK is not immigration, but free movement of professionals and transfer of skills between the UK and India. And I think that kind of ins – it should not be tied down to a question of immigration, but, you know, short-term visas, professional visas, we’re talking about that. So – and again, we – or from an Indian side, we feel that every conversation between UK and India is not about immigration. It is about how Indian professionals are adding to British business success by bringing those skills where there are skill gaps here in the UK. So, I think a lot of the negotiations are about mobility, about professional mobility.

The other aspect was about intellectual property. I think that has been sorted out, intellectual property. Tariffs on automobiles from the UK to India, again, you know, the same as Scotch whisky story, it needs to be coming down. So, I think they are looking forward to that. Then, about – from the British side, again, they are looking at negotiating a bilateral investment treaty, which has been discontinued, which was there in the past. But as part of the FTA negotiations, a bilateral investment treaty, again, needs to be agreed. I’m sure Ben would probably – or my colleagues in DVT would know probably better about the investment treaty, because that was again, from the British side. It was a, kind of, a priority about taxation, about protection of investor rights in India for British companies. So, that was really a need of [inaudible – 53:18] from the British side, and I think the – that investment treaty is also being negotiated. That’s all I can say, you know, from what I can recollect from the newspaper readings.

Ben Mellor

Just to add a couple of points. I mean, I’m not going to – I’m not, luckily, a trade negotiator and therefore – and also, as Shehla said, it’s a, you know, it’s a private negotiation between the two governments. We are very close to a deal. There is a deal there that is to be done, and I think both sides have said that publicly. I think that the – Shehla is remarkably well informed on some of the areas that might still need to be finalised.

The point about the link between migration and the FTA is one I hear an awful lot and just to, you know, to – for the sake of banishing a canard, there is no linkage between migration and the FTA. The rules of FTAs are really clear, bluntly, on this. There is, indeed, within FTA rules, and this is all set by the WTO, not by me. You can do exactly the business mobility piece, which is…

Shehla Raza Hasan

Yeah.

Ben Mellor

…I can’t remember if it’s Section 4 or something, I can’t remember the – of the WTO agreement. And so, there is a bit on that, but that has not been an area of contention, frankly, between the UK and India. And indeed, as we’ve already heard, legal migration between the UK and India is one of the huge success stories of the last several years.

So, I do often hear that it’s – “Surely it’s all a” – the Australian FTA was perhaps where that canard came from, because I think there was a little bit in the deal between Australia and India that led to a discussion about migration in the end game. That has not been the conversation that we’ve had, but we are close, but it is – you know, the last – the devil is in the details. But we’ve only been negotiating – 14 rounds, as you said, seems like a lot. If you had said to me two and a half years ago that we would be as close as we are, I would’ve taken it. I would absolutely have taken it. Then in the – when I went to Brussels last time and talked about their experience of negotiating their FTA, I think they’re in year ten and they’re very jealous and they now say, “Well, we’ll just take yours and make it better.” Well, good luck to them, but I think we will – sorry, we’re not doing Brexit, are we, in this conversation?

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Try to avoid it, but that’s okay.

Ben Mellor

But I think we have done a – we’ve made a huge amount of progress on the FTA.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

There’s one question which has come up online on, “Given the UK’s close relationship with both India and Pakistan, whether it is in any position to nudge both countries to return to the negotiating table.” I will open up that can of worms and hand it over to any one of you that would like to…

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Come on, Ben.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

And so…

Ben Mellor

I heard Dr Jaishankar say that was going to behave on his recent visit to Islamabad.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Yes.

Ben Mellor

And I think we should take a – take our cue from Dr Jaishankar. Look, the UK has got good relations with Pakistan and excellent relations with India, I think, and we have always said that there are issues between the two countries, and bilateral issues between those two countries. And it’s not for us, as the UK, to get involved in those bilateral issues and I think that still continues. But I – you know, of course, as a country that believes in the, you know, the rule of law, but also believes in co-operation between countries, I think everything we can to see that, I think, is to be encouraged. But it’s for Dr Jaishankar, for Prime Minister Modi and for the Government of Pakistan to work that issues.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Leave it to them. Yes, please.

Douglas McNeill

Douglas McNeill, I’m a former UK Government Economist. Ben has mentioned the importance that the government quite rightly attaches to climate and nature in the bilateral relationship. And Lord Bilimoria and others have mentioned India’s tremendous economic growth potential. As India pursues the very legitimate goal of economic development, given the realities of generating power in India, it’s not hard to imagine India becoming the world’s biggest emitter of carbon. Would that be liable to become an irritant in the bilateral relationship or is there a way of mitigating that?

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Well, look, let me take that first. I mean, there’s no question that India – I – you got to look at it from India’s point of view. They say, “You in the West have been emitting all these fuel – all this – all these years, carbon. Now you’re going for Net Zero by 2050. We’re catching up at the moment. There’s a mismatch over here.” But what India has said, instead of saying, “Well, we’ll ignore that and do our own thing,” they are committing to transferring to renewables. And they’re not just saying that, they’re doing it, I mean, with solar. Solar is the best example in India. It’s happening in a big way. One of the Indian companies, Adani, is building a solar farm, if you want to call it that, the size of the City of Paris, it’s huge, I mean, it’s giant, that can produce phenomenal amounts, enough to power many, many cities and – you know.

So, they are doing that side-by-side. What they are saying is their transition is probably going to take a little longer than ours, but at least there’s that commitment to renewables, as well, which I see as a very positive thing.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

And I think there is also the UK-India Climate Partnership, which is progressing well, and both the countries are committed to, kind of, decarbonised ec – the economy. So, I think there is an understanding and they’re working together.

Ben Mellor

Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, there is no route to 1.5 other than with India on side. I mean, that is absolutely key and that is understood by all parties, including the Government of India. I think the challenge is that they need the financing to help them get there. So, I don’t think it becomes a bilateral irritant. I think the UK has a considerable role that we can play in helping solve that financing problem. I was at any event last month, at the City of London, talking about how we could make sure we were getting better, with NITI Aayog, who were over from Delhi and how they could link in to financing opportunities here, somewhere, but well, the UK does have, obviously, a huge amount of expertise in that.

The science and technology piece that I mentioned clearly puts us into that climate space in terms of looking at some of the climate opportunities for collaboration in this space. Again, I think that’s an opportunity for collaboration, and also the global partnerships. And I actually think India is – I think we can see India in a global leadership role in tackling climate, because if India can do it, and as I said, I don’t see how we get to 1.5 without India, so they must do it, then actually, that partnership, as well, of understanding how good models that they can do. So, thinks like the Global Solar Alliance – I always get the anacronyms wrong. There’s the Solar Alliance, there’s the Disaster Risk Initiative, where we can work with India on those, sort of, global climate partnerships. I can see that – and it ties into the point that Usha was making earlier about the role that India wants to play in the Global South. Actually, that role of leadership in the Global South in terms of tackling climate change, can be a really important part of the answer.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

And London’s seen as a centre of green finance, so that’s a perfect partnership.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Yes, please, go ahead.

Apoorva Vishnoi

Hi, this is Apoorva Vishnoi and I’m a Asia House Fellow. And my question was, basically, that as the UK Government seeks to decouple from China, what is the role inversion for India in building a more resilient and diverse supply chain for the UK businesses and what are the exact obstacles that are stopping India from reaching that role?

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Any of you, Ben, perhaps Shehla? Yeah, go ahead.

Shehla Raza Hasan

Me. I just have one point, you know. Like, India has been aspiring to be part of the global supply chain of the West, especially after COVID and during COVID, for obvious reasons. But I think one of the biggest obstacles to that is, you know, greening the supply chain. Because, you know, it comes with those conditions that the SMEs, who are actually going to be part of the supply chain, they need access to cheap green finance. Because otherwise, without – and then, otherwise, you know, India will not be a wholly green supply chain hub. It sees – it aspires to be the global supply chain hub for the rest of the world. I – probably it is developing capacities, but one big issue about the supply chain is the sor – access to green finance which is cheap. And it is looking to the UK, because I – last year, there were a lot of discussions and because of the UK’s, you know, innovative ways of financing, you know, how can cheap finance be made available to those SMEs who form that supply chain? That’s all I can say for now.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

But it hits the – yeah, to answer your question directly about China, you know, we had this whole golden opportunity with China relationship in the George Osborne Chancellorship days. I mean, that’s changed, there’s no question about it, it’s changed. But the reality is we do almost £100 billion worth of China, the UK, with China every year. And India, India and China’s relationship, it’s no secret. I mean, it – there’s quite a lot of friction a lot of the time. India does almost $100 billion of trade with China every year, and I’ve seen when I was representing the UK at the B20, before the G20 last year, when India was the host of G20, and there was a panel with all the Trade Ministers from the G20 countries. And Piyush Goyal, the Indian Trade Minister was chairing it and he joked with the Chinese Trade Minister and said, “Minister, we do $100 billion of trade, but it’s all in your favour.” So, the Chinese Trade Minister laughed, and he said, “But Minister, you have a trade surplus with other countries.” So, you know, that’s the spirit in which, you know, the reality is there that that trade is very much there, despite the friction that may exist.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Yeah, I think that’s a good point. I would question the degree to which the UK is truly trying to decouple from China. I mean, it – there is a – making the distinction between derisking and decoupling, I think there’s more of a push on the derisking side. And I think, yeah, as India continues to become more central to global supply chains, it’s probably going to become more, not less, dependent on China for key components in its supply chain.

There’s a question here on the “future of the defence – UK-India defence relationship under the new government.” Ben, would you want to offer some thoughts on that?

Ben Mellor

Yeah, and I think – I mean, I think the – I mentioned before that the Defence Minister visited earlier and I think that one of the areas that’s probably suffered most from that lack of trust has probably been the defence relationship. And it’s certainly one of the areas that has underperformed when I look at the UK-India relationship. It’s not as significant as we would expect it to be and there are a number of factors behind that, which are well-known and well-rehearsed. Certainly, you know, when Prime Minister Modi talked about wanting to remove away from the dependence on Russia and that, sort of, opens up an opportunity for – you know, 60% I think is still the number – the amount of dependency on Russian equipment, material, and that changes and others are in that market, as well. We talked about – earlier about the competition. There is a competitive market there. I think the UK should be in that market.

So, I think we have two things. We should be in the market, and we should also be in the strategic defence partnership, particularly in the Indian Ocean, particularly in the maritime space. We want to do more in that space. I think we will work closely together on it, but I think it’s a thing that trust takes an awfully long time to be built into that space. We’re doing small steps. We’ve got the first Naval Instructor in Dartmouth from the Indian Navy. That’s a brilliant way that you build those kind of links, speaking as an alumni of, not only of Birmingham University, but also the High Command and Staff Course at Shrivenham. If you train together, you learn an awful lot and that sort of link does actually make a big difference. Those are the kind of things that will start to build those relationships that’s important.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

No, this is important.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Oh, yes.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Carry on, please, Usha.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

No, no, carry on.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

No, no, no, no.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

You do…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

After you, after you.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

No, it’s okay, carry on.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

No, I’m saying that the potential on defence is huge. I mean, my father, when he retired as Commander-in-Chief of the Central Army in India, but when he was Lieutenant Colonel, he was in the Indian Army Liaison Officer posted within the British Army, and that post has been removed. You know, that was pure trust, where you had an Indian Officer embedded within the British Infantry, open to all information, taking part in all exercises. That’s the sort of trust that you need. We need – RCDS, which I – the Royal College of Defence, I used to teach at that every year, we’ve got three Indian Officers. Similar at NDC, National Defence College, the Indian equivalent, we have British Officers there. Staff College in India, we have British Officers. So, the exchanges are very important, but joint exercises are very – and naval exercises. Air – there was a very good air exercise last year called Operation Cobra Warrior. I like the name of that.

And so, that’s another way, but the whole – the trust is the key point over here. We’ve got to – if there are two Armed Forces that in terms of esprit de corps and spirit and the way of operating and the regimental system, we’re identical and you could see Officers from both, they respect each other, work brilliantly together. We’ve just got to work much more. Then you’ve got the whole defence manufacturing side of things, again, huge potential.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Yes?

Member

[Pause] Oh, very nice to meet you all. I hear about the supply chain. I hear about the green finance. I hear about a lot of solutions that are coming up. But me, speaking from a younger generation settled here in UK, and also having an Indian origin, I see where two peop – places meet. I’m in the middle of it. We do have solutions for all the problems that are arising because we see it. We are affected, our future generation is also affected. But we don’t have the space where we can be mentored by the experienced and the knowledged, and also, for us to speak about. So, will there be any kind of space where we can have the opportunity to explore our own thoughts and innovations, innovative ideas, with also, an experienced knowledge coming from your side? Is there some government doing anything about this here, for us to have that opportunity?

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

I…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Do I – as – I can navigate through all of – Usha, you go first.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

I mean, I think you raise a very important point, which is about the views of the younger people in this debate, because you can just say it’s probably dominated by people like me who are probably past their sell-by-date. But it’s…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Never, no.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

But the point really is we do need to engage with this – young people and I think this is where the people-to-people relationship and how that would actually build and develop, and I think it’s for the government and other institutions to open channels of communication where young people can actually begin to give their perspectives. So, I think it’s a very significant point and I think it’s something we need to think about.

Ben Mellor

And I was going to give one – and one example we did – we have done is there’s the thing called the Young Professionals Scheme, which I can’t remember the exact numbers that we put onto the first year, but it was…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

3,000.

Ben Mellor

3,500?

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

3,000.

Ben Mellor

Something like that. And we were massively oversubscribed in terms of young Indians wanting to come to the UK and we had one applicant from somebody who wanted – if it was you, sorry if it was you, but, you know, one applicant from somebody in the UK wanting to go and work in – and in India. And there’s a huge amount – that to me, is a gap in the market. We need to do more. We need to go out and talk to British business. We need to go and talk to people who would – the – I’d be encouraging their young people to get involved in this scheme, and I think that’s the, kind of, more practical opportunity that we can certainly look to expand.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Absolutely.

Member

Many people are doing their part and it’s working really well, but collectively, we…

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Yeah, I agree.

Ben Mellor

Yeah.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

I agree.

Shehla Raza Hasan

So, yeah, so, in fact, you know, we, as the CII, we are very interested in showcasing India to the British youth, showcasing an [evolved India,] the globally sized Indian company. So, we are looking to put together people who will go from Britain to India to understand about the way an Indian organisation works, to showcase the excellence that Indian businesses have attained, and, you know, be a part of a fun, kind of – and come back as an Ambassador for India. So, that’s what we are working on. We are very keen to…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Well, the…

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

But…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

…British Council had an initiative which was fantastic.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

But we have lots of initiatives, but I think the point you’re making is a different one.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Yeah.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Is hearing your perspectives…

Member

Both pers…

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

…about – both the perspectives in terms of building that relationship. Because I think it’s not just, if I may say so, about showcasing. It’s really, how do we engage and get the perspective of people with your experience, who are, as I say, are of Indian origin, but live here, and what’s their perspective about the kind of relationship that you would like to see, particularly in terms of people-to-people and bridging? And I think that is something we need to really focus on.

Member

Yeah, as an individual, I’ve connected businesses from here to India and vice versa. From one side it’s magic.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Yeah.

Member

Fluid

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Yeah, exactly.

Member

There is still some gap in terms of government aid that we are not able to receive and make it massive. It’s not more about cultural or anything. We – it’s very much rooted in our heart. It need not be put out there, but we are trying to put people together, likeminded people together, to make the world a better place when it comes to supply chain, making it a better thing, green financing, or any kind of future innovative, you know, good prospectives for that matter.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

It’s a very good idea.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Yeah, sure.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

I mean, I’m going to give this…

Member

Very.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

…some thought.

Member

Yeah, well, I’d be…

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

…about us, sort of, having…

Member

…happy to talk to you all.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

…a forum where – which meets regularly, where young Indians, people interested in India, come together. Not just Indians, but anyone interested in India.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Anybody…

Member

I’m here to talk.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

…who’s interested.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Thank you.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Who’s interested to come here and…

Member

Thank you.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

Thank you.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

It’s the masses.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

I’m conscious of the time. We have about four minutes and I wanted to see if I could squeeze in several questions. So, we’ll maybe take a few in one go. So, first, you, sir [pause]. Thank you.

Deepak Malhotra

Hi, my name is Deepak Malhotra. I represent Capgrow Capital. Given the disbanding of the Roundtable which Lord Bilimoria mentioned, in 2014, and no Prime Ministerial visits, significant Prime Ministerial visits from either side, the non-ending saga of FTA reg – you know, negotiations going on, while we see India is engaging with US and France, like we mentioned here, and with other countries. You know, Prime Minister Modi is going to countries which no Indian Prime Minister has visited for 40 years plus. Why this – there is a ‘lack of trust’, you know, which has been mentioned, you know, over these last ten years? So, is it due to lack of seriousness on the part of UK Government, where they don’t take, you know, developing this relationship seriously, or is it, you know, something wrong on the Indian side? Because this seems to be a non-ending saga. Thank you.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

If you can hand over the mic to the gentleman next to you. Yeah, go ahead.

Matthew

Hello, my name’s Matthew. I’m a student of international relations at King’s College, and my question, with the rise of, like, populism in the UK, do you think that’ll ever affect its relations with India?

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

And then I think we had one last question from you, Anit, yeah.

Dr Anit Mukherjee

Yeah. Thank you so much. I am Anit Mukherjee, I’m with the King’s India Institute. I agree with the panel’s outcome. I think this is an opportune time to look at this relationship. I had a, kind of, query on the idea of where do we teach Britishers about this new India, right? And that’ll obviously take me back to the cutting of areas, studies in the British universities, right? Which is – you know, it’s not surprising an Officer would ask for more money, but do you think that could also be a cause, right, of where are we educating British university students about this new India? So, is that an effort that we could explore? Thank you.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

Okay, so we’ll try to cover these three questions in one minute. So, over to all of you. No, Shehla…

Shehla Raza Hasan

Oh, oh.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

…you want – do you want to start…

Shehla Raza Hasan

Okay.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

…and go round?

Shehla Raza Hasan

So, about – we are – you know, that’s exactly what we are trying to do. So, we are trying to get British students to go to India, either as an India emersion experience or as a India work experience for three months, you know, anything three weeks to three months, over the summer. This is something which we have done very successfully in Japan, as well as Singapore. Only last – only this year, the Singapore work experie – India Ready work experience was launched, and it was even tweeted by the Prime Minister, because we had around 20 Singaporean students who came to Pune, who got placements for projects in our member companies, like Forbes Marshall and Bajaj Finance and others. So, they are there. They are look – they are being looked after. They’ve been given a stipend, accommodation, everything.

So, we want to replicate that experience, so in a way, you know, we want youth as ambassadors of India in the UK. And a – the innovations – the innovativeness with which Indians do business, there’s a lot of learning from the Indian side now. So, that’s something that – and we would be quite interested to know if there is an interest among the diaspora here to set up maybe an India Institute or something. You know, that’s something that we could support, not financially, but, you know, through our work. Yeah, definitely, this could be a beginning of that conversation. But we’ve done that successfully with Japan and Singapore, but we are trying to do that with the UK.

Ben Mellor

But if I – oh, we’re going to go to – sorry, sorry.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

You car – no, carry on.

Ben Mellor

Right. I was just going to try – I mean, if I link the first question and the third question. I mean, I think it’s – there is a question of framing in this, right? And we can frame the problematic aspects of the relationship and then the positive aspects of the relationship. It’s a complicated relationship and I think when we’re trying to talk about how we can increase the knowledge and the understanding, we have to accept and embrace that complexity. I think that is a really important part of it. And, you know, the more we tell those stories – I mean, you know, the story that we’ve done to death, and I haven’t even used it today, is the AstraZeneca Serum Institute story.

And the fact is that, you know, that story is the story of modern India and it’s a story of modern collaboration between the UK and India and it put a billion vaccines into people’s arms. It’s a huge success story and we, kind of, take it for granted, those of us who understand it, but we’re not the audience. We’re not the target audience that need to get that sense of why that complicated, difficult relationship is worth persevering with and why, actually, it’s not a story of, you know, people in the UK wear bowler hats and people in the – in India go to snake charmers, or whatever, right? There’s a modern story on both sides and we have to be telling that story consistency.

Rise of populism in the UK is a – I think I mentioned earlier the challenges that that provides. I don’t think it’s particularly problematic in terms of the relationship with India. I think it’s an issue that we need to address.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Right, and…

Ben Mellor

And we haven’t talked – we have – we’re not going to talk about Brexit anymore.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

No.

Ben Mellor

And I’m not going to talk about US elections, either.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

I agree with you on populism, but I think combining the two there – and the question is not just – I slightly cringe when we talk about more institutes, you know, dy – it’s more of a dynamic relationship, you know, how you actually build on this. And that will come through dialogue exchanges and in directions at all different levels, and I think we’ve got to work pretty systematically to actually begin to do that. One example I will give you, I was involved in the event when David Cameron went to India and Prime Minister Modi, they launched the India Year of Culture, you know. And that was a very good initiative and that was – the objective really was to get the young Indians to understand modern Britain and got young Britishers to understand modern. And I think that needs – that kind of activity needs to be sustained and therefore, there’s a, kind of, understanding on that. And we very much focus on the education sides and in terms of exchange of students of both sides coming to, actually, to act – to understand.

On your point in terms of the relationship, it’s true that we did go through, kind of, a fallow period, but I think we are now at a position, thanks to some extent to the previous government, because I think a push was given, the foundations have been laid on which can be built. Therefore, I think we’ve got to look forward in terms of how do we now build on this positive platform that we have? I’m very encouraged to hear that the FTA is likely to happen and if we can then begin to look at what are the strategic areas where we can collaborate and work on those in a very focused way, I think we can take this relationship to a next level. So, we’ve got to be realistic, but I’m very hopeful.

The Lord Karan Bilimoria CBE DL

So – and just building on just what’s been said, these are the final remarks. So, the key point of this collaboration, and Ben mentioned about Serum Institute of India – I’m going to be seeing Cyrus Poonawalla just after this now. He’s a very good friend, and you know, peop – I don’t think you realise how that started. The more we can do of universities, business and governments working together, but working together cross-border. And I saw this first-hand when Cyrus Poonawalla got his Honorary Doctorate at Oxford in 2019, where he said, “Please, I want you to be there.” The reason is he was working as the largest vaccine manufacturer in the world, with Oxford University, with Dr – Professor Adrian Hill, to develop a malaria vaccine and they were in a race with GSK. That’s what they were working on and they said, “We’re going to get there.” Well, actually, GSK run that race, but if you’ve just heard the Oxford malaria vaccine has been approved and is very effective, 75%, that was in collaboration with Serum Institute of India.

Because of that relationship, they gave him an Honorary Doctorate and when the pandemic came the next year, there was that trust and relationship that had been built between CR – SII and Oxford and when AstraZeneca was chosen as the manufacturer, they said, “We recommend SII to be the manufacturer” and they’ve produced two billion doses. 200 million of those, in the beginning, at risk even before they were approved by the regulators. So, that’s all down to trust and cross-border collaboration. At Birmingham University, where I was Chancellor for ten years, we set up last year the first joint master’s degree with IIT Madras. Now, you – those of you who know, ITT’s the most difficult education to get into in the world. 1.5 million students try and 15,000 get in and it’s an AI and data science, where the students can spend time in a one and a half year master’s in the UK and in India.

And then, when it comes to India having the trust in the UK, to this day, you ask Indians when they’re going to be travelling abroad for the first time, London is one of the first places in the world they’ll want to come to. That must never change, and our soft power that we have in this country, small country those we are, with hard and soft power combined – our military may be small but it’s very good, yeah. Our universities are the best in the world, along with America. Three out of the top five are British universities. Four out of the top ten, British universities. 15 out of the top 100 are British universities. So, we’re phenomenal in education and Indian students want to come and study over here.

Premier League, you go to India, the number of Indians who are fans of the top Premier League teams, like Chelsea and Manchester United, I mean, it’s phenomenal. So, we have so much – BBC, that was criticised, so 500 million people around the world every week watch and listen to BBC. So, we’ve got lots of elements of soft power that Indians love and respect, including, by the way, our Royal Family. And when the – when the Queen passed away, this country, we were in mourning. I didn’t realise how much the rest of the world, including in India, respected the Queen, because she was such a dutiful servant of this country and quite frankly, globally. So – and King Charles is very popular, as well, in India. He was way ahead of the world when it comes to the environment. He was years ahead.

So, I think we’ve got a lot to go for and that – with that sort of confidence and positivity, we need to make much of this relationship, and we need to reset it and this new government’s got an opportunity to do that.

The Rt Hon the Baroness Usha Prashar CBE

Yes, we need to reset it.

Dr Chietigj Bajpaee

So, on that optimistic note, we will need to draw this event to a close. So, thank you all for joining us today. Our programme, the Asia-Pacific Programme, will continue to work on – be looking at the India-UK relationship and looking at India through a more strategic lens. But on that note, I – please join me in giving a round of applause to our excellent speakers [applause].