Benin’s regional role: Cooperation on security challenges and political instability

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you very much, everybody. My name, if you don’t know me, is Alex Vines, and I direct the Africa Programme here at Chatham House and I’m your Chair today. We’re very lucky to have the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Benin with us today, His Excellency Bakari. He’s going to talk about Benin’s Regional Role, Co-operation on Security Challenges and Political Instability. I have to admit to you that Benin is one of the countries that we have tried to focus on at Chatham House. We think it’s underrepresented, particularly in Western think tanks and thinking about Benin, its position in West Africa. And a few years ago, we did a very large report in December 2015 called “Nigeria’s Booming Borders: the Drivers and Consequences of Unrecorded Trade,” because there’s so much trade between Benin and Nigeria. And so we had deep field research in Benin at the time, as well as Niger.

We also more recently published – we have a programme called Common Futures, bringing young Europeans and young Africans together and we had a Beninois write about her experience in Cotonou during COVID and so we published her experience. So that was Stephanie Kotchofa, who was with us as a Common Futures member. So, Minister, Benin’s not new to us, and it’s some – is a country that we want to focus more upon.

This meeting is at Chatham House, but it’s not under the Chatham House Rule. So, there are Journalists in the room, and I can see them both. There’s one next to me here. I can see that the Financial Times West Africa Correspondent here. So, everything is on the record and His Excellency will make some opening remarks and then we’ll have a question and answer session. The Minister speaks English, but he may go into French if he tires of it and we’ll move in and out of language that way. So…

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

So, Frenglish.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Frenglish is absolutely perfect for this institute.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Yeah, perfect.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

And I just want to acknowledge His Excellency, the Ambassador of Angola, Ambassadeur Nando [Bemvindo – 02:27], he’s right here in front of us. So, thank you for coming today Ambassador. And just to say Her Excellency, the Ambassador of Benin, credited to the Court of St James is with us also and she’s just there. So, thank you Ambassador for coming to Chatham House. So, with no more ado, I’ll hand over to Excellency his – the Minister. Please press your button so everybody can hear you. Thank you very much.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Thank you, thank you very much, and good afternoon, everyone. It’s a real pleasure and honour for me to be here today. I think it’s always quite impressive, you know, to come and speak, you know, at Chatham House. It was important also for me to come here today to talk about my country, about Benin because as the Chair rightly mentioned, many people don’t know about Benin. And Benin, we are trying to transform this country since seven years, since the election of President Patrice Talon, with, I will say, little success. We are trying to, you know, make this country more friendly, business friendly, and more attractive for investment. But, as you rightly mention, and you can definitely see it in the news, nobody can be happy alone, and we are in a situation, in a sub-region where there is a lot of instability today.

So, it’s – I will say that it’s a question of – it’s a big concern for us as a country because – and before I will start this development, I want to talk to you a little bit about Benin history. When we stand very strong against the coup, the last coup in Niger, many people ask us, “Why are you so vocable?” Because you are a small country in West Africa, why are you, you know, raising the hand and saying, “This coup cannot be acceptable?” And we explain, and President Talon explain it, you know, largely because it’s due to our story.

Benin, from 1960 ‘til 1972, experience coup every years, every years. Sometime we experience two or three coup during the same years. You know, we had President for 24 hours in Benin. So – and when we look at the numbers, we just discover ourself that between 1960 and 1972, in fact, we create a lot of poverty. When the military came into power in 1972, they handover the power from 1972 ‘til 1989.

In 1989, the poor population of Benin was equal to Benin population in 1960. So, when we organised this, you know, conférence nationale, we used to call it, you know, it’s like national dialogue, in 1990, we decided clearly to separate military with the power, and we decide that power government will be civilian power – civilian government. We had few military people who said, “We want to become President.” President Mathieu Kérékou, but not only him, we have other people, you know, who said, “We – even if I’m General or I’m Colonel, I want to become President.” And then they just resign from military and run for election. Because we believe in the fact that if you want to serve your people, if you want to improve the life of your people, nobody can conquer the power with arms. And that’s one of the reason why we stand very strong against the last coup in Niger.

We know that – and we also know that, you know, military power in our sub-region with all the situation, you know, in security we are facing today, and we already see it, you know, in Mali, in Burkina Faso, etc., most of the time when you have a military regime, they bunkerize themself in capital city because they know that anybody with a gun can come and fire them. So, they put a lot of money, you know, to bunkerize themself in ci – capital city, and they just abandon the rest of the country. And that’s exactly what is happening today in Mali, in Burkina Faso when you have a government and the government controlling only a small part of the country. So, when it’s come to Benin, we stand within ECOWAS clearly against the coup because this will affect also our economical reforms.

Since 2016, the – all the goal, all the objective of the government is to transform the country, make reform in order to attract more investment to create jobs. Because we acknowledge the fact that jobs for young people is the most important thing, is the most important subject for us as government. When you have so young population, the most important thing is to create job for them. But government cannot create job alone. We need to attract investment – investors. And when you talk to investors across the globe, most of the time they don’t know about, you know, African countries.

Most of the investor, you know, in global world today, when they’re talking about, you know, Africa, they cannot put Benin on the map, you know? So, for us, it’s really important to ensure that when we are trying to attract more investment to create job, that’s the recent kind of stability. And unfortunately, what is happening in our region today is not good for us, for the policy we are trying to put in place. So that’s why, within ECOWAS, within our, you know, sub-region organisation, we stand so strong and we decided to apply – to respect the decision of ECOWAS.

The second reason why it was important for us to stand within ECOWAS decision really – regarding the last coup in Niger, is also relative to the fact that we are a serious country. We are trying to build our equity story around being a serious country, serious government. When we take a decision, when we sign a contract, we need to stand by this contract. Most of the time, the images people have, you know, and toward African countries is, you can sign a contract, but, you know, the contract will never be enforced. People, they are not respecting the contract.

You can sign today and tomorrow another government will come and say, “Okay, I’m not the one who signed this contract, so, I don’t want to respect it.” All of us, we decided, you know, in 1975 to create ECOWAS. Our President, they sign multiple treaty and for us, it was very important, it was mandatory that when we – our President sit together, the 15 President and they decided to put sanction on Niger, we have to follow the rule.

If you want to change the rule, you come back on the table, you discuss with your peers, and you find a solution. You cannot be in the room and just after get out and say, “Okay, I’m not supporting what ECOWAS say.” Because we are weakening – by doing that, we are weakening, you know, the power and the strength of ECOWAS, but we need ECOWAS. We need ECOWAS because ECOWAS help all of us to create a viable market. For a country like Benin, 13 million people, all this – you know, our capacity to attract investors depend on our capacity to show that we are in regional community of 350 million people. Otherwise, what is the interest of an investor to come and invest for our sole market? So, we need to show that our regional market is very strong, and our regional institution is very strong. So that’s the second reason why we, you know, we decided, in this crisis, you know, to stand by ECOWAS decision.

Now, you know, three month after, we are still in the situ – in the same situation. So, you will ask me what is the future, right? I think multiple areas of negotiation are on the table, we are discussing with our neighbour Niger, because the reality is, our borders are pure artificial borders.

Myself, you know, have a part of my family in Nigeria. So, you know, most of the time it’s just a question of, you know, colonisation, etc. So, it’s not the real border and people suffering today are the population. So, we are trying to find a solution. And how can we ensure in the future? Because at the end of the day, we are less than seven years before 2030, and all of us, we already know that we’ll not achieve SDGs, unfortunately. Then probably we’ll pay a big cheque for a big consulting firm, and they will find a new acronym for maybe 2063. Because in African Union, we decided that the next, you know, the next checkpoint will be 2063, and then we’ll put the new numbers on the table, but all of this is not serious.

We need, in fact, to improve the way our population are living. We need to improve the – you know, we need to provide them the basic need access to water, to electricity, to school, etc. If we want to do all of this, we need to stop this spiral of coup in the region. And when I’m saying coup, I agree and I know that the question will come, “Is it only military coup?” Because there is some time also, you know, s constitutional coup, etc. I think all type of coup, but the one with gun is the worst one. So that’s why, you know – but both of them are not good. But if we want to improve the situation in Africa, if we want to reduce poverty, definitely we need to strengthen our institution.

And strengthening our institution, and I will finish with this, strengthen our institution, it’s mainly a question of governance most of the time. Situation in which we are in Africa today, it’s a question of governance. We have to improve our governance. We have to ensure that we are reducing corruption. We have to be sure that we have a clear plan, a clear development plan, and we stick to this plan and we are not changing the plan every five years or every ten years when there is change of government. Because to do development, you need some kind of stability on that.

So that’s what we are trying to do in Benin since, you know, inception of, President Patrice Talon. Today, you know, three days – I think three days, five days back, there is this new report from World Bank saying that we are the country with the, yeah, the most transparent – transparency in term – tax transparency, eighth in the world. We want to do more and more and we want to show the entire world that a small country in West Africa, without oil, without diamond, without any type of, you know, resources can show also the way, can lead the way in term of governance. And maybe, you know, in ten years, 15 years, when you come in Benin, you can see that we manage to improve the life of our population. We need to have this type of example in Africa. Otherwise, we’ll lose again, one generation and one generation.

I will stop there and maybe listen to the question and answer the question. Thank you very much.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you very much, Minister, and that gives us good time for a conversation. So, please don’t be shy, we’ve got over half an hour for a discussion. Who would like to start? Go ahead, please press the button, introduce yourself, ask the question.

Akinyemi Oyawale

Yeah. Hi, Your Excellency. I’m Akinyemi Oyawale, I’m an Assistant Professor in International Relations at the University of Warwick, and I really enjoyed how your, kind of, presentation was brief and very clear as well. And also seeing a young Minister in Africa. Yeah, of course. Yeah, so, the – so at least the appearance is good. Yeah, so, let’s put it that way. Yeah, and I really like how you mentioned the case of coups, but in a way I see coups as something different, right? I see coups as a question, not as an answer, right? I see them as morbid symptoms of an interregnum, right? When you have a country where you actually need force to get the people to get in line, rather than doing the hard work of governance. Governance is really hard. If we go back in history, it’s either – you either convince the people that you are sent by God, right? That they have to worship you, or you find a way, going back to, Machiavelli, for example, The Prince, to use force and combine that with some kind of authority to make the people to see you as legitimate.

But I think we’re not willing to do this work in much of the African countries. We’re not willing to do this work. And then the military discovers that they are just being used by middlemen, that they have the power, then they decide to go for it. If you need the military to control your people all the time, why would the military then have to get the elites to be, you know, the middleman? So, they just remove them and then they control the people, and you find the people actually celebrating, right?

Even Gramsci has written about this, right? He talks about how, in countries in Western Europe, because Marx was saying that countries in Western Europe would collapse eventually from a revolution. But why did these countries, with advanced capitalism, not collapse? Because of society, even if you remove the government, society would rise up and they’ll remove you. That’s why the revolution succeeded in Russia and in China, and did not succeed in Western Europe, right?

So, the government – for me, I believe governments need to look deep inside and start doing the hard work, right? It’s not just about frameworks. It’s not just about saying, “I’m a country now, yes, I have legitimacy, I have independence.” No, that should be viewed as a tool for advancing something. What is that thing? And I think it takes us back to colonisation. We’re still – we’ve still not resolved. Independence to me, it’s a kind of – it’s a smokescreen. It doesn’t really go to the depth of how the African man, right, was destroyed psychologically, spiritually, mentally and we need to reclaim that, right? And from that, we can then put ourselves at the heart of where we want to go. So, borders are there, what functions should a border serve, right?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

And…

Akinyemi Oyawale

Yeah. One minute, can I have a minute?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

One minute, okay.

Akinyemi Oyawale

Yes. So, what purpose should a border serve? Should it serve economic purpose? Should it serve, for example, trade purpose? Should it serve some other purposes? But it’s not just that the border is there because it’s there and we should respect it. What function should it serve? And we can see how Europe has done that following from Immanuel Kant and you can see the European Union and some other things. Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thanks very much. Prof, can you turn off the microphone just there? That’s brilliant. You might as well ‘cause it – I mean, what it’s opening up is a discussion of what’s your vision for ECOWAS basically?

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Yeah.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

You know, melting away borders, kind of, you know, kind of, maxing up, scaling up regionally and moving away from anglophone, francophone, lusophone, all of those sorts of things, yeah.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Same question, and allow me to speak in French, because I want to choose the right words. Yeah, but, you know, you’ll get a translation, you know?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

We’re going to have a Translator.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

I think it’s, you know – I think, firstly, that we, Africans must take our responsibilities. It’s very easy to say more than 60 years after independence, that colonialism is to blame for everything. Personally, I don’t think that’s the case. And that we be more precise, you know, let’s be honest. Me, I’m Yoruba, like you, right? I’m sure that my ancestors probably they sell slaves. That’s the reality because when there is slavery, right, there is seller and buyers. It’s very difficult what I’m saying. You know, it’s very difficult because most of the time people, they will say, “Okay, you are not, you know, embracing what we used to say.” But the fact is, we have to take also our responsibility. Nobody will come and build Africa in our place. Nobody come for me, all the countries across the globe they have their own interest. And we, as African, we should also find our interest in this global world. We should be clear that we need to provide minimum to our population. When we have a leader stealing money to buy Castle in Europe, right, is it the fault of Europe? I don’t think so. I don’t think so.

So, that’s why I’m saying that first and foremost, the situation in which we are today, it’s a question of governance. We have to improve governance. What you are saying is because there is a lack of governance, you believe that military can come and solve this governance issue. I believe that this is a wrong answer, and that’s why I started by saying that in my country, we already experienced this. Having military coup and military coup and military coup and military they come and they say, “Okay, we’ll solve the issue.” But they are not trying to run a country. So, for me, the – and then you talk about, you know, the border. It’s a reality, you know, our border are artificial, we know that, but unfortunately, in 1963, all of our Presidents within African Union, they sit down and say, “Nobody will touch the border.” We accept together and we admit that the border – nobody will touch the border. So, now we have to work with it.

And I think I really like the way, you know, Chair, you know, mentioned the trade question. Because in fact, everybody – you know, within Africa today, we, in Benin, we decided that we don’t want to rectify Africa Free Trade Continental Agreement. And you know why? Because we said we are a serious country. Today, when I produce a bottle of water in Benin, it’s impossible for me to sell this bottle of water in Ghana. We are talking about 120, 150 kilometre. We are in the same zone. We are in the same regional organisation. It’s impossible to bring my bottle from Benin to Ghana.

More than that, we say we want to create free continental agreement, right? Free market, but we, in 2016, with 2017, we decided that because we are in this region, we want to waive visa for all African. If you are African citizen, you own African passport, you can enter in Benin without visa. This is the minimum if you want, you know, free movement of people and goods. How many country did it in Africa?

Today, there is multiple countries in Africa if me, I want to travel with my passport, I have to apply for visa. Sometime it will take one week, two weeks, three weeks. And we are saying that we want to do – we want to create the market. I believe, and this is, you know, what we, we believe in Benin, we believe that we as African, we have to take our responsibility. We have to stop a certain thing we are doing.

You know, I will give you one last example before we move to the next question. When COVID happened, COVID hits all the economy, right? And then the solution find by most of our continental organisation was to say, “We have to apply for debt relief.” You borrow money, and then when one crisis arrive, you just start saying, “Allow me to do not pay.” This is not serious.

We experience it in 1990 and there is countries after this debt relief decided – who decided to do not lend money no more in Africa. It was the case for Japan, for example. We, in Benin, we decided and we write to all G20 countries to say, “We don’t want debt relief. We borrow money, we’ll repay the money.” Good governance, it’s about also being serious, and I think this is really important. But where I agree with you, everything is about leadership. Improving governance, it’s about finding the right leaders. That’s another question.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Great. So, let’s – and go ahead.

Aanu Adeoye

Yeah.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Aanu, introduce yourself.

Aanu Adeoye

Yeah. Hi, good afternoon. Thank you, Foreign Minister. My name is Aanu Adeoye, I’m the West Africa Correspondent for the FT. You know, you were talking about the coup in Niger and the ECOWAS response and I want to ask you about the immediate concerns about President Bazoum, the condition, you know, is still being aired. Do you see it as a situation that the coup leaders in Niger have essentially, you know, won? ‘Cause last week we saw that America has now decided that this is a coup. So, where does that leave ECOWAS communications with the people in Niger? Thank you very much.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Yeah, coup questions. Anyone want to talk about coups with guns, or the constitutional versions? Yeah, and Minister, I’ll just add something here because we talk about constitutional coups, which are changing constitutions going for third terms. For example, we saw that in Guinea. What’s your view on trying to get a consensual position with all ECOWAS countries, two terms, and you have to step down? ‘Cause there are a couple of ECOWAS countries that don’t necessarily share that vision.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

So, we are not in the Chatham House Rules. So, I cannot…

Dr Alex Vines OBE

We’re not, so tread carefully, very carefully.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

I cannot talk freely, you know? Look, I can talk only about my country, Benin.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Yeah.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

We, we decided and we put – because this question of third term, fourth term, etc., always, you know, arise when you have a President doing his second term, most of the time people, they will start thinking, “Should he stay or not, is it possible or not, will he change the constitution or not, etc.?” So, we, we decided in 2018, we put in a small word in our constitution, “Nobody in his entire life can do more than two terms,” and it close the discussion. And for us, it’s something really, really important for us. So, what – to respond to the question of my brother on Niger. So, first of all, I think, United States they recognise that this is a coup and the impact is a very big impact on Niger economy because we are talking about, you know, cancellation of close to $600 million.

I think, in our opinion, and that’s what we are trying to do through ECOWAS today, we need to solve – to find the way, you know, to solve the situation. Because the one suffering are the population, not the military people, it’s on the population side. We believe also that we should have a clear timeline to return to constitutional order because it’s important for Niger population. And I think Nigerian they are also really attached to return to constitutional order, even if there is, you know, few people on the street, etc., and I don’t want to talk about my views on people being on the street, right? So, we believe that, you know, President Bazoum should be released, you know, with his family, his Government, and, you know, we should find a way to come back to constitutional order.

‘Til now ECOWAS position is very clear on this. We are pursuing the negotiation with the junta in Niger and we expect that very quickly we can find a solution. Not for us, not for them, but for people of Niger ‘cause they’re the ones suffering the most. When it come to the, you know, how can we prevent the coup? I think there is no – in French we say baguette magique, right? For me, it’s always about governance. It’s always about governance. It’s always also about how we organise our political framework in the country. And I will be little bit controversial on this.

Western type of democracy, occidental democracy with, you know, multi-parties having 100, 200 parties, I’m sure that this is not the right solution for Africa today. We need to put a clear rule in place. We need to help our political party to, you know, to create some kind of concentration, you know, having maybe one, two, three party, but a strong party because our countries are not yet nation.

Most of the time, it’s easier for people to identify themself to their ethnic, to a region, and not to the country. And if you want to build a country, you need a party above all of this, you know, across the ethnical landscape, etc. So, I think we need to rethink the way we are organising, you know, political framework in our countries. We did few reforms in Benin in 2019 because we, you know, we decided that we want to reduce the number of political party in National Assembly. Not because we don’t want plurality, but mainly because if you want to run a country under a clear programme, you need – you don’t need to have a fragmented assembly.

You know, here in UK you have two strong party, right? You know that if it’s not Labour, it will be, you know, Tories under power. And then you have few other party you can do a coalition, but you have strong pillar. In our country, this was not the case. You know, before the reform in Benin, we have more than 200 parties. Most of the time, those people they will come to National Assembly just to, you know, negotiate contract, etc. This is not good for democracy. So that’s why we put a strong, you know, reform in place and we decided that, for example, if you run for election, parliamentary election, for example, and you have less than 10% of national vote, you cannot be accepted to the National Assembly. And I think it’s important because it’s helping create – consolidate the democracy. Then we’ll have maybe two or three big party in the country, and you’ll have some kind of stability because even your administration can be stable. ‘Til now it was not the case, but it’s a long run, right? We – I think it will take maybe 20 years again and everything will come to who will be the leaders to run our countries during the next, you know, 20 years, because governance and leadership are working together, right?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay, more questions. I know there’s one there. Let’s go here first, we will come to you. But please go ahead.

Manoela Borges

Hi, my name is Manoela Borges. I’m here at the US Embassy in London and I wanted to go back to your – to the conversation about economic reforms in the region, and would love to hear a little bit about your thoughts on how the US, UK, and other international partners can maybe do more, in specific ways, to help underpin some of the reforms that you’re talking about, both in Benin, ECOWAS, and in the region to attract investment.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Are there any more economic questions that we can cluster on this? No? No, okay, so, let’s go with this one.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. This is a very, very good question, because most of the time, you know, when you look at Benin, for example, all of us, we are more oriented toward Western, but unfortunately, Western countries, they don’t want to invest in Africa. I’m really frank, you know, even here in UK we are in – you know, we are participating to an investment forum, most of the companies coming are there for EPC contract. They want to sign a contract. They don’t want to invest to create job. And most of the time, our friend from USA, from Europe, they will say, “Oh, you guys, you are looking at – you’re looking toward China, Asia.” But in fact, because they’re talking the language we need today.

I was discussing, you know, this morning with the Finland Minister of Foreign Affair, and we was talking about Nokia. I’m saying, “My people, they need data. We are in a country where 50% of the population, they don’t have access to data. They need 3G, 4G, 5G, right?” But the only one coming to knock the door is Huawei. Nokia is not coming, because they will say, “We need a tender, we need to see how it will work. We are waiting, this is a small country.” And then the day we will sign with the Huawei, they will come and say, “You are putting your entire life in the hand of China.” I think US, Europe should change the view on – in – you know, toward Africa. You are investing a lot in Asia, I think you should be more in the perspective that, “Okay, you can come and invest also in Africa, make money.” And change the risk perception you have in Africa.

Before being Foreign Affair Ministers, I used to be Banker, I used to be investor myself. I think when you look – you do, you know – you look at the story, at the history, you know, there is a very few project, the percentage of project collapse – collapsing in Africa or in default in Africa is very low. But even if that’s the case, you know, the risk, you know, the credit risk you are putting on Africa is very high today, because there is this perception. So, I think, you know, you should change the way you are looking at this market.

I believe in the fact that there is a lot of opportunity. African countries today, and especially in my country, we are trying to industrialise our economy. We are trying to transform our raw materials, right? And we are happy to work with all the geographies across the globe. So, definitely if France, UK or US come, we speak the same language. You know, our young people, they are more culturally close to West rather than East. And you can look at it, you know, when you try to do a publicity – okay, advertising, sorry, you try to do advertising.

If you use, you know, the colour tone or the graphics of Eastern part of the globe, it will not work in Africa. They’re completely – their mindset is turned toward West, but at the same time, West companies are not investing in Africa. So that’s why you see, you know, more and more Chinese company, Indian company, etc. We are trying to change it, but, you know, on your side, I think you should also.

I have this week a very good discussion with Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, you know, Basu in Cotonou and was explaining to her how we, we believe in the fact that AGOA should be a very strong tool to increase and improve US investment in Africa, but investment not, you know, contract and EPC contract.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Let’s go for a couple of more questions before we finish. I mean, quite a lot of the economic debate actually was – some of us were at the FT Africa Forum yesterday.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Yeah.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

And many of the points that you’d made, Minister, came out and what the – the US had Judd Devermont, who you know, the Special Assistant to the President for Africa, and he made the point about…

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Yeah.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

…how the US is trying to scale up 14 trips by Senior US Officials in the continent. But your point, private sector is very hesitant, and that’s the problem.

Okay, the lady at the end, please, you have – yeah, press the microphone button and then I’ll come to you, Paul, also…

Thanisa Naidu-Lewin

Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

…‘cause we’re running out of time now, and maybe a third question, if there is one.

Thanisa Naidu-Lewin

It would be – it will have been remiss of you to miss the big brown girl at the end, but thank you for the floor. And my name is Thanisa Naidu-Lewin. I’m a Diplomat at the South African High Commission. I apologise for not being able to greet you in French, Minister, but it is very refreshing seeing someone at least 50 years younger than the median age of Foreign Ministers on the African Continent.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

You don’t know if I’m not above 50 years, right?

Thanisa Naidu-Lewin

That’s fine, but you don’t look it. My question is though, you’ve touched a lot on ECOWAS and the role of ECOWAS in your region, obviously, and having ECOWAS being a cohesive body of 15 nations. But I’m curious, from an African Union perspective, and an inter-regional perspective, particularly with the regional economic communities, what role for a more cohesive approach when you speak about and when we look at BRICS and its recent extension and almost this fear that Africa has been courted by China at the expense of its Western allies. However, that isn’t the case. The case is for how to make your African girl child and your African boy child being able to compete equally on an equal footing. And if the Chinese and Japanese partners are there to assist us into realising our absolute potential, how does one counterbalance that against, as the US says, concerns that Africa is no longer interested in its former Western partners? Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay, thank you very much. Minister, I’m going to take more questions, please.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Yeah.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Yeah, so, Paul, I know you’ve got a question. Can you introduce yourself?

Paul Ejime

My name is Paul Ejime, Consultant on Peace and Security and Governance Issues. I used to be a War Correspondent embedded – one of the few embedded with ECOWAS when they were ending the war in Liberia and Sierra Leone. Honourable Minister, I know you have your plate filled. You had worked as Advisor to President Faure of Togo. And now you are, you know, Foreign Minister for Benin, that makes you, you know, rounded. Not – so, not just one country. You – could you share some light on this your – the rethinking of the kind of democracy you want Africa to adopt? Will it include independent candidates? Because that is one area – and I know that in trying to fashion this out, Benin has fallen into trouble by raising the deposit for political parties and that created a problem.

They were those who felt not everybody is po – is rich. The President might be rich, and maybe Bakari might be rich, but not everybody. Those who were – those who can pull some resources and present candidates, not based on their wealth, but what they can contribute, feel that they were shut out. And what about political detainees and the issue of the fact that a female, a woman, is still in jail? Because this – part of the constitutional coup we’re talking about is that these part – leaders, they create a crime like terrorism, and then to be able to shut out their opponents. What do you – you know, how do you handle that? And I wanted us to also talk about…

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you. Go on, one last one.

Paul Ejime

One more, yeah, on colonialism and slave trade. And I would like for us to read an article that says, Slave trade: Enough sorrow, time for reparation. I noticed that you mentioned that African leaders were complicit in selling straight, but that is selling slave trade and selling them slaves. That is only a minute part of the issue. The point is that millions of Africans were uprooted, Benin, Dahomey Kingdom where you come from, cons – com – you know, contributed a lot of it, not by voluntary, but people were forced and, you know, put in a ship like sardine and taken out. The fight for reparation appears to have – West Africa and Africa are losing it to the Caribbeans. Why is it so?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Thank you.

Paul Ejime

Thank you very much.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

Okay. I have one also question, which is about counter-terrorism, countering violent extremism. So, nobody has asked you, but what’s the security in the North of Benin? Secondly, we’ve seen that Benin has now signed up to be part of the EU training mission, but also, there’s a – there was the visitor President Kagame and the offer of Rwanda providing security for Benin. So, I just want to cluster that as a separate question. Thank you very much.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Thank you. So, on security side, I will start by the last one. So, we are in a situation where, you know, you know the security situation of Burkina Faso at our border, because we share a border with Burkina Faso, Niger, but most on Burkina Faso side. Today, the Southern part of Burkina Faso is completely controlled by, you know, those terrorist armed groups. So, sometime – and at our border, we invested close to 150 million to create these, you know, wild animal parks because tourism is the main part – is one of the main part of our national development plan. And unfortunately, today, you know, we cannot allow the tourists to go there because there is sometime, you know, those terrorists trying to enter also in Benin. We experience few attacks, you know, very less compared to, you know, our neighbour, our neighbours, but definitely there is a clear threat, you know, for us in, you know, this border region.

Few months back, we just launched a large programme to recruit 5,000 troops in order to maintain the stability in this region. But we believe also in the fact that the solution is not only on military side. So that’s why we have a very large programme of investment, you know, in the region, you know, to build schools, provide access to water. We invest close to €1 billion during the last five years, you know, to achieve access to water for all by 2025. And I think we are one of the rare country in Africa doing so because we believe that, you know, if – it’s simple. Most of the time, when you look at how those people operate, they arrive in a village where there is no water. They will just build a well and then start asking people that, you know, if you are not part of our organisation, we cannot have access to water.

So, if we are providing access to infrastructure, to basic infrastructure definitely, we are, you know, tackling a part of the problem by offering also opportunities, you know, to young people in those region. So that’s why we are also investing heavily in vocational training. We want to change completely our curriculum. Today we have more than 60% of our young people getting out of school learning, you know, socioeconomical stuff. By 2030, we want this to become 70% of our young people having technical knowledge. So, we are building a lot of technical college across the country in order, you know, to provide skills to the young people and avoid those young people, you know, to join those terrorist group.

It’s a long run, you know, we’ll not solve it in one day, but, yeah, ‘til now we are controlling the situation, and that’s why it’s so important for us to avoid Niger becoming another, you know, centre of terrorism in the region, because, Niger is 20 time Benin size. So, we definitely need, together with the authority there and with Nigeria and other ECOWAS countries, to avoid a situation where, you know, Niger security situation will fall down.

When it come to Political reforms, I was saying before that we, we know in Benin, you know, what is the cost of having 200 parties, having 26 Candidate to presidential election, most of them having less than 0.1% of the vote? But using the fact that they are on the ballot to start negotiating and asking for money, etc., we know that. We know what is the cost of having election where people are putting bunch of money in order to get elected. And this is completely linked also to the situation of our population.

A lady or, you know, a person living in a rural area in Benin without access to electricity, water, healthcare, what is the value they are giving the right to vote? Anybody can come and give them money, and for this money they will decided to vote for you or for other people. So, what we are trying to do in 2019, and you rightly mentioned it, it’s to ban money from election. Yes, we raise the question, you know, to become candidate, but in fact, like here in UK or in US, you don’t need to be millionaire, but if you want to participate to election, you at least you have people supporting you, then you can raise money. You don’t need to be wealthy, you know, but what is the sense of having 100 or 25? The last election in 2016, we have, I think it was 26 candidate for Presidential election in Benin, with no programme and everything about ethnicities, etc.

So, we decided to put some kind of rule in place in order to ensure that, you know, people they will concentrate themself on what they can provide our population. Everybody was not happy, and that’s normal. But today, I can tell you that the reform we put in place in Benin, many countries in Africa and even outside Africa want to put it in place also. Many countries are approaching us saying, “How did you manage to move from 200 parties to five, six party in a country like Benin, where you know that there is a lot of ethnic and the division?”

You mentioned Presidential candidates or, you know, someone, having issue with justice. I think we, as African, also we have to respect our institution. The situation, you know, because today, for example, President Trump is under judiciary process in USA, will someone think that President Biden is doing – is manipulating, you know, the justice, you know, to – in order to impeach him to become candidate? Sometime it’s easy for people just to say, “Okay, you know, if – because I’m a Politician, I have the right to do everything, because if something happened to me, I can raise the hand and say, “because they want to kill me,”” right? They want to exclude me. That’s why I know if you are Politician, you have to be exemplary, right? It’s not an immunity for you. But I don’t want to enter in the detail of this case because we are talking about, you know, judiciary case, and, you know, everything in front of justice. I think we’ll let Judge to explain this better than me.

But, in any case, I think what we have to understand also is conquering the power in Africa like everywhere in the world should be more a question of your capacity to convince your population and not a question of how many – how much money you are distributing. It should not be a question of saying, “I’m a victim,” or something like that. You know, we need to put rule in place, and this will be the first step of improving, you know, the governance in our countries.

I will finish with, you know, economical question, the most interesting one. Look, I think we, we believe in the fact that, you know, we should first step try to strengthen our regional economical organisation. You know, I think SABIC is doing a very great job led by South Africa. There is, I think probably better integration, you know, in SABIC today due to history, etc. The other economical communities in Africa should do the same. And then, based on that, you know, we can start seeing how we can, you know, improve the trade between our different economical region. Moving directly to continental or trying to move to continental market without any rule, it’s dangerous.

Look at Europe, for example. When Europe decided to create the common market, Portugal and Spain at this time was a very, you know, little economy compared to France, Germany, etc., and European Union decided to put compensation in place. Spain and Portugal, they get a bunch of money in order, you know, to improve the economy and the integration of the economy. Today, a country like, you know, Benin or small – other small countries, you are saying, “Okay, let us open just the market, but there is no compensation in place.” And they’re saying, “Okay, we’ll talk about the compensation in the future.” It doesn’t make sense.

The same thing about, you know, the rule of origin. You know, nobody’s talking about the rule of origin. I can bring – there is people producing tomatoes in Benin, but as per our continental free trade agreement someone can bring, you know, tomato in big bottle and come and just do – you know, put it in a small, small bottle and say, “Okay, this is made in” – I don’t know which country and then they have access to market. So, we have to think about, you know, all of this. And when it’s come to the relationship with the other part of the world, BRICS, European Union, USA, etc., I think everybody is fighting for his own interest. There’s no friend in business. No friend, no family, it’s just about business. You know, we, in Africa, most of the time we’ll say, “Oh, my brother help me,” etc. But in fact, nobody help nobody, you know, it’s always about interest.

So, we have to find our way and definitely, you know, be strong on the table and come with – showing the market. And that’s why I was saying that ECOWAS is so important for us because if Benin alone have to be around the – on the table, you know, nobody will – we are small country. But if we come as a part of ECOWAS, 250 million, the way people will look at us will be completely different. You know, people, they used to say that, you know, “If you are not around the table, that mean you are on the menu.” And we, as African, we have to do everything to do not be on the menu, you know?

Dr Alex Vines OBE

I think that’s a very appropriate moment to finish. My apologies, we run over by about ten minutes, but I think it was worth it for sure. So, the most important thing now is to thank His Excellency Bakari, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Benin for being with us and being very candid and open and navigating some tough questions. So, thank you very much. And also to our Translator, you didn’t have to do very much today, but thank you, all the same.

HE Shegun Adjadi Bakari

Thank you.

Dr Alex Vines OBE

So, let’s show our customary appreciation. Thank you very much [applause].