Bronwen Maddox
Good morning, everyone. I’m Bronwen Maddox, Director of Chatham House, and a very warm welcome to you. Thank you for coming. I’m delighted to have here His Royal Highness…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Thank you.
Bronwen Maddox
…Prince Turki AlFaisal, who needs very little introduction and has one of these simple, powerful resumes, if you like. More than 20 years, as you know, running Saudi Arabia’s foreign intelligence, and then in 2001, that year over-resonant because of 9/11, became the Ambassador here in the UK, with all the intensity of those particular times. And then, followed that with being the Ambassador to the US, again in very, very turbulent times, and is now the Chairman and I think Founder, of the King Faisal…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
One of the Founders…
Bronwen Maddox
…Inter…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
…really.
Bronwen Maddox
One of the Founders…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
…of the King Faisal Institute on Research and Islamic Studies. And he said to us, elegantly, he is here not to speak for the Saudi Government, but to give his own views from that long perspective on the many questions that we might ask.
We apologise for keeping you waiting, and we’ll go the same number of minutes over the top of the hour, as we are now, that is six or seven. And for the avoidance of any doubt, we are on the record and this is being livestreamed. So, a second welcome. Welcome to…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Thank you.
Bronwen Maddox
…Chatham House. Let us start with one of the questions that I think is on everyone’s mind and that is Gaza and the possibility, or otherwise, of any kind of deal that is going to bring some peace there. What is your view?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Right, first of all, let me say thank you for your invitation and for your presence. In Arabic folklore, sitting in a chair like this, we would say this is kursiu aliaetiraf, which means “the chair of confession.” So, I’m not here to confess anything, but as Her Excellency said, I speak for myself. I am not a representative of the Saudi Government, but on issues of Gaza and other things that affect our part of the world, I do not hesitate to express what I know and what I hear from others, whether through the media or through official statements.
I wish I had positive things to say about what can be done in Gaza. Unfortunately, I am not one of those who believes that we are going to end this conflict soon, and I don’t see any particular reason why I should change my mind at this moment. Because the world in general is not coming forward to put the right pressure and the right tactics and the right policies to end the conflict.
I think if it were simply a matter of a quid pro quo, a geostrategic exchange of interests between the Palestinians and the Israelis, I think that would be much easier to engage in and to hope – to be hopeful about, but it is not just that. It’s a matter of history and I’m reminded that this country, particularly, has a special responsibility for what is happening in Palestine, starting with what I would consider to be the ill-begotten Balfour Declaration in 1917, and going on, throughout the past years, to reach where we are today.
My principal concern, as – not just as a Saudi, but as a human being, is to see that the killing stops on both sides. And that’s why I’m not too hopeful, because I think those who are responsible for the killing are not yet convinced that stopping the killing is going to serve their purposes, whether it is on the Israeli side or on the Hamas side. Continuing the war seems to be playing into the hands of those who don’t want to stop it.
Mr Netanyahu has declared objectives in his campaign against Hamas. He has not achieved them, although it’s been almost a year since he started pummelling Hamas with bombs and rockets and other destructive materials. And on the other side, Hamas declares intentions and objectives of their campaign, which they have not accomplished. So, both sides are in that con – state of mutual destructive mood that nobody on the outside can force them to change.
We’ve seen UN Resolutions pass. We’ve seen diplomatic missions going forward and backwards. We’ve seen public statements from various Heads of State, from NGOs, from United Nations Officials, and yet, nobody has been able, as it were, to put the screw on both sides to stop the killing. If anybody has another view, I’d be very happy to listen to what they have to say, but if I may, I would like to suggest that perhaps there could be a way of putting the screw on both sides. It will have to come…
Bronwen Maddox
And this is exactly the point I wanted to develop. So, do you think that either the US, in pressure on Israel, or other countries, in pressure on Hamas, can do more at this point to give them a reason to address the question of peace?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Very much so. I think the United States has enormous tools to effect Israel, which it is not using. Not just simply the issue of denial of supply of weapons and material to the Israelis, but also using its, if you like, standing in the world to tell Mr Netanyahu, “You have to do this,” and he will have to do it. On the Hamas side, I think the pressure on them is going to have to come from the people in Gaza, unfortunately. They are the only ones, I think, who can put a stop to the Hamas intentions of keeping the war going. I don’t think either Egypt or Qatar or any other country can force Hamas, or put a screw on Hamas, to make it stop.
But definitely, I think the people in Gaza not only have a right to do that, but they will eventually have to do it. And more than 50,000 dead, that is what makes me so angry that not just Hamas, but the whole world is accepting these figures and not putting the screws, as it were, on particularly Israel, to stop the fighting.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay, let’s just pick up that point. The whole world is watching and as you know, there’ve been many, many protests, including repeatedly, in London, about the death in Gaza. Also, ones are in support of Israel. But let’s just stick with this point of the US and the pressure that it might put on Benjamin Netanyahu. We had Antony Blinken, Secretary of State, here at Chatham House this week. It was under the Rule, so I’m not going to break that confidence, but let me say what he said was compatible with what he said in public, which was that the US has very, very tough conversations with Netanyahu. Do you think the US – how exactly would you like the US to be tougher with Israel?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
As I mentioned, Yanni, the tools available to the United States is not only denial of export of weapons and material, but a lot of financial help goes to Israel from the United States. If some of the privileges that Israeli lobby, for example, in America, enjoys, of the tax-free contributions to Israel, can be withdrawn from those Israeli lobbyists, that will be great pressure on Israel. As you know, in the United States, you have to register as a lobbyist for a specific country or be prosecuted if you want to talk for that country. But lot of organisation in America do that for Israel and still enjoy a tax-free status because they are considered not representing Israel as – per se, but simply as philanthropic or humanitarian groupings. That is one tool, I think, that can be used by the United States to put pressure on Israel.
As I said, denial of weapons and intelligence and other support, military and security, will also put pressure on Israel. So, there are many tools that are available to the United States. Not simply harsh talk, which seems to have gotten us nowhere. But is America ready to do that? As I said, I am not too optimistic about that.
Bronwen Maddox
What about the other side, of – you talk about the people of Gaza, it being needy – necessary for them to turn on Hamas in some way and say, “Look, we want peace.” And yet, people you’re talking about are obviously – been moving home, they suffered enormous casualties. Can you – is it realistic that they, in some concerted way, can turn on Hamas, which still is what remains of an administration of Gaza?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I think if the people of Gaza see some sign of hope for an ending to the fighting, they will start putting pressure on Hamas on – to stop their practice as it is now. But the people of Gaza are not seeing any movement forward. As I said, Yanni, the world seems to be accepting that the war is going to continue. And so, having really to look forward to an end to the war by whoever is being moved from one place of encampment in Gaza to another place, they’re, basically, now engaged in not only protecting themselves from rain of weapons on them and bombs, but also finding sustenance, whether it is food or water or medicine, for themselves and for their children.
So, their ability to influence Hamas, I think, is much curtailed by what is happening around the world and the fact that Israel is given this free licence by the world to continue its campaign.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm. So, I think a lot of people would agree with the picture that you’ve laid out, that at the moment, the Israeli Government, certainly, and Palestinian people, are not putting pressure – are not moving towards some kind of deal.
Let’s turn to Saudi Arabia as to what it might be able to do to influence this, if not resolve it. And Saudi Arabia has made clear that it would like normalisation with Israel. Your Ambassador, who was here, said at our London conference in the summer, “Look, we want normalisation, but it depends on there being a credible path to peace and to land for the Palestinians and it depends on an end to the killing in Gaza.” And he added, “And then we would love Israel to be part of football matches, to be part of singing contests and everything, in our part of the world, not just…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Uh-huh.
Bronwen Maddox
…no – Europe,” and it was a marvellous vision of what might come and yet, you know, up against the reality you’ve described. Does Saudi Arabia have any influence on this?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Well, the Kingdom has taken a very important role in providing support for reaching a peaceful resolution, not just to the issue that’s happening in Gaza today, but also to the overall peace between Israel and the rest of the Arab world and the Palestinians in particularly. Not just through its proposals for peace, whether the 1981 King Fahd proposal. Many of you probably don’t remember it, or perhaps those of you who have not yet been born at that time when he made it. Which was the first time that the Arab world talked about peace with Israel publicly, and all Arab countries supported it at that time.
Followed by the King Abdullah Peace Initiative in 2002, which now has been accepted by all of the world, except two countries, Israel and Iran. In the recent conflict between Gaza and the Israelis, the Kingdom led the Muslim world in not only summits with the Arabs, but with the Muslim world and also, the diplomatic missions that have been taking place to convince the world that there must be an end to the fighting, led by the Saudi Foreign Minister, who visited capitals of the world to convince them of supporting an end to the war.
In terms of public statements, of course, the Kingdom has been in the forefront of condemning the Israeli onslaught on the Palestinians, not just in Gaza, but equally, in the West Bank. And let’s not forget, there is another front to the Gaza front, which is the West Bank, where Israel is also have a free for all in attacking Palestinians. So, the Kingdom has been very active in its role as a supporter of the - an end to the fighting.
As far as normalisation with Israel, the US – the Kingdom has been talking to the United States about a relationship based on firmer ties between the Kingdom and the United States as far as, not just security, but economic development and other engagement with the United States. And the United States wanting us to have normalisation with Israel, the Kingdom reply to that, publicly, has been, “If there is a Palestinian State that Israel accepts to come to existence, then we can talk about normalisation with Israel.”
And I remember before October 7th, those talks not only progressed along those lines, but also, the Kingdom invited a Palestinian delegation to come and talk directly to the Americans about what it is that might bring about a Palestinian State. I’m not privy to those talks, so I don’t know what happened between the Palestinians and the Americans, but the Kingdom’s position has always been, “We will not speak for the Palestinians. They have to do it for themselves.” And unfortunately, of course, October 7th put an end to those talks, but nonetheless, both sides, the Saudi side and the American side, have publicly expressed that they want the talks to continue. And whether it is on a bilateral basis, US-Saudi linkage and so on, and some sort of agreement on, as I said, security and economic and other issues, but also, the establishment of a Palestinian State and then, normalisation with – between Israel, not just Saudi Arabia, but the rest of the Islamic world.
Bronwen Maddox
Is it…?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
That’s my knowledge of it.
Bronwen Maddox
Yes. Is it possible for some of those talks between Saudi Arabia and the US to progress even while there is no progress on the Palestinian question?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
As far as I can see, that’s – there hasn’t been any progress on that point, Yanni. All the public statements I’ve seen from Saudi officials indicate that the need for the establishment of a Palestinian State is a primary condition for Saudi Arabia to have normalisation with Israel. But also, on the Israeli side, the whole government is saying, “No Palestinian State.” So, how can there be normalisation between us and them with those positions in place?
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm. We have observed often at Chatham House that many countries are talking with hope, possibly about a two-state solution or about land for the Palestinians, but the Israelis are not, many of them, not among that and not many Palestinians. Let me ask you, it is often said, since October 7th, that Hamas did this attack partly, at least, for the reason of stopping normalisation. Do you think that’s true?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I don’t, because for Hamas to have done what it did, it would have required to prepare for it, in my view, at least a couple of years, to gather the human and material resources to launch a campaign like that. And that definitely, those couple of years, preceded the talks between us and the Americans about the establishment of a Palestinian State and normalisation with Israel. So, if that – Hamas had that intention, it would have had to do it much before, but no, I don’t think that that was one of the reasons why Hamas did what it did. Although I’m sure they consider that this was an added benefit to their campaign that they effected this intention to reach an accommodation between America and Saudi Arabia.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm. Let’s turn to the wider region. I’m sure there is going to be a lot about Israel and Gaza and so on in questions and I will come to questions about halfway through, which is approaching, but the wider region. It’s coming up for two years since Saudi Arabia and Iran had a, kind of, reproachment, brokered by China. What has that – what difference has that made?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Not being in government circles, I don’t know what is happening between the two governments, but seeing it from the outside, the difference that I see is that the leadership in both countries now are talking to each other. Before the previous President Raisi died, he attended the Islamic Summit Conference in Riyadh, which was called by Saudi Arabia to support the Palestinian people. And it seemed at the time that the final statement that came out stressed the need for a two-state solution, which Iran has always been wary of declaring its acceptance of it, and that passed through while he was President. Subsequently, of course, they reneged a litt – a bit on that and would – said that, you know, “We’re still have reservations about that.” But since the new President came about, which is only, I think, a month or two since his election, I don’t know what has happened between the leadership. So, that’s one aspect of the difference between now and the agreement that we reached with them in Beijing.
The other thing, of course is the presence and the increase of the number of Iranian pilgrims to come to Saudi Arabia on the annual Hajj. This, of course, in my view, has a more people-to-people aspect, in that all these pilgrims who come to Saudi Arabia will see what Saudi Arabia has become and use that as comparison with what they have to live through in Iran. And I think that will have a potential impact on the Iranian people as to where they could be, as to where they are, and – but that still, will take some time.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm. It’s a really interesting point, though.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Other than that, I have not yet seen any particular change in, for example, Iranian efforts to interfere in the affairs of Arab states, which would have been part of the agreement that was held between them and Saudi Arabia in Beijing. In – whether it is in Palestine, Hamas, of course, receives a lot of support from Iran, in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq, in Yemen, and the Houthis now hold the world as hostage, if you like, in the Bab-el-Mandeb Red Sea entrance. And yet, Iran is not showing that it can do something there if it wanted to. And I think the Kingdom would have expected that Iran would be more forthcoming in showing, not just to us, but to others, that they can be a positive factor in bringing stability and removing differences, not just with Saudi Arabia, but with the rest of us.
Bronwen Maddox
This is exactly where I was going to go with the next question, because what the Houthis are doing is, as you said, it’s holding the world hostage. It is not very helpful to the Kingdom.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Hmmm.
Bronwen Maddox
Do you think Iran can’t control the Houthis or doesn’t want to?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I wish I could tell you. If they can control the Houthis, they’re definitely not doing that.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
And if they can’t control the Houthis, well, then we’re running into a bit of trouble here. But if I might say so, Yanni, we can tell you here in this country and in other countries, we told you so about the Houthis when we were supporting, and still support, the legitimate government in Sana’a to resist the Houthi aggression that took place – started in 2014, and the civil war that succeeded that, between them and the government.
But the Kingdom tried to talk to the Houthis and still does, I think, engage with them, as I see in public statements and other means of communication, but no-one is being – has had the ability to really predict what the Houthis will or will not do.
Bronwen Maddox
No.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
So, I think there is something for the world community, also, to put pressure on the Houthis, as well.
Bronwen Maddox
Now, there were US-UK airstrikes against the Houthis. The Kingdom chose not to take part. Why was that?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Well, because we’re engaged with them and if we took military means to bomb them now, that engagement would stop, and it will have a negative effect on achieving peace between the Houthis and the legitimate government. I think the world, in these pinprick bombings that they have over Houthi positions in Yemen, can do more. And definitely, we’ve seen the deployment of the European and American fleets along the Red Sea and Arabian Sea coasts. I think more can be done there to interdict the supply of weaponry that comes to the Houthis from Iran, which is not happening. And putting pressure on Iran by the world community there, I think can have a positive impact on what the Houthis can, or will and are able to, do in launching these missiles and drones to hit international commerce and the waters of the Bab-el-Mandeb.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm. Where is Syria in all this? It’s not in the headlines, British, even American press, at the moment, but the problems there have not gone away.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
The what?
Bronwen Maddox
The problems in Syria have not gone away.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
With?
Bronwen Maddox
Syria.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Syria?
Bronwen Maddox
Yes.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
No, sure.
Bronwen Maddox
Do you see it as stable at the moment or another source of instability in this picture?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Looking at it from the outside, of course, and only – and depending on media and official statements for my source of information on Syria, it is still a work in progress. Not only the Kingdom, but other countries in the Arab world, reach an accommodation of some sort with the Syrian regime, with certain, I would say, expectations from that regime on issues not just of the export of drugs from Syria to the rest of the area, but also on the conduct of the Syrian Government towards not only its own people, but also towards the relationship that it has with the various militias that affect us all, particularly Hezbollah.
And I have not seen any positive progress from the Syrian Government vis-à-vis those items. So, if there is something that is happening between governments that I don’t know about, I don’t know. So, all I can say is that there’s still more to be done by the regime to meet the expectations of those of the countries that achieve the reproachment with the government.
Bronwen Maddox
Let’s leave that there. We might come onto Syria a bit more in questions, where, of course, the Kingdom normalised ties back in 2023. But let’s leave that one there. I know there’s going to be a lot of questions and there are some good ones already online and please do keep them coming, including at least one brave solution to the problems in Gaza. Thank you. I might get to that.
Who would like to start? Could we have the lights up, please. Great. Me – I’ll take – okay, I’ll take them one at a time and so, here. I think you had the first hand up, yes, but please wait for the microphone. Just stay where you are, but please wait for the microphone. Great, and please say – please could you say who you are?
Member
Yeah.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I am hard of hearing, so if you…
Member
Yeah, okay…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
…raise your voice just…
Member
…I’ll shout. I am an Author and a Journalist by profession and thank you very much, Your Highness…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Thank you.
Member
…about your highly polished diplomatic talk. Now, my question is, as the genocide in Gaza and the settlers’ violence in the West Bank rages on, the entire Islamic countries are aghast. They are aghast at the silence of the regional Arab states who are not helping the Palestinians, but they are confusing the whole world, and why don’t you come to the rescue of the Palestinians for your kith and kins? Your brothers and sisters are being slaughtered every day and how long is – how long are you going to tolerate this everyday slaughter of the innocent people? Thank you very much.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Am I to answer or take some more questions?
Bronwen Maddox
One, answer the…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Okay. Well, as I mentioned to you, Yanni, the Kingdom has been doing what it can to bring a stop to the end of the fighting. In terms of if you’re asking Saudi Arabia to use military means to engage in warfare with Israel, that is definitely something I can say, as a Saudi, and I think not just Saudis, but other in the area, would not like to see happen. We don’t want the fighting to be spread wider between people of different countries in the area. Rather, we want to contain it and end it. And I think the things that Saudi Arabia has been doing has been affecting, for example, the position of various countries in the world, who when the first events of October 7th came about, who came all out in support of Israel and subsequently, have backed off a little bit.
An example of that, the United Kingdom. The change of government here has led to a change in policy as far as supplying, for example, Israel with weapons. I’d like to see more done by the United Kingdom. I think, for example, the United Kingdom I think should recognise a State of Palestine. It’s long overdue. It’s been passed, I think, in a previous Parliament, as a resolution that the – asking the UK Government to recognise a State of Palestine, which they have not yet done. So, hopefully, this government will be able to move forward and not simply be a little reticent or shy about what it does with Israel and Israel’s activities in – not just in Gaza, but in the West Bank.
But I don’t think Saudi Arabia will be willing to widen the conflict into a bigger military conflict than it is happening today. Rather, we’d rather see the fighting end than widen it.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Let’s go right to the back. There’s a whole cluster of hands there. I’m going to ask my colleagues to pick one.
David Lubin
My name is David Lubin. I’m a Research Fellow here at Chatham House. Earlier this year, it seemed likely that Saudi Arabia was going to join the BRICS group. It didn’t in the end, and I wonder whether you think Saudi Arabia will join the BRICS grouping and how it fits in to Saudi Arabia’s relationship with China in general.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you and thank you, Gerson Fumbuka online for asking that question, as well.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I don’t know. What I see of statements is that Saudi Arabia and other countries have been, I think, either invited or have applied to be members of the BRICS group, but so far, none of them have yet fully become members of the group. What holds them up, I really don’t know, but I just saw a statement by the Brazilian Foreign Minister, I think he was on a visit to Saudi Arabia, saying that “BRICS is going to become a group of something like 35 countries.” When that happens, I don’t know, but I don’t know about Saudi Arabia. I wish I could tell you, but I don’t know.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay, great. Can we keep going at the back here? I’m going to ask my colleagues to – there’s a woman in the middle.
Lydia Ellis
Thank you very much, Your Royal Highness, for your very excellent talk and for…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Thank you.
Lydia Ellis
…taking the time to answer my question, in advance. You very rightly pointed out…
Bronwen Maddox
Will you forgive me, would you like to say…
Lydia Ellis
Oh.
Bronwen Maddox
…who you are?
Lydia Ellis
Oh, my apologies, my name is Lydia Ellis. You very rightly point out in your talk that the United Kingdom has a particular responsibility to Palestine and to the Palestinians. And you also point out that regrettably, so far, the United States, Qatar and Egypt have not been very successful in trying to negotiate a peace agreement or an end to the conflict. So, I wonder what is the particular role that the United Kingdom might play at this point, when you mention the special responsibility that the UK has to the Palestinian people? For example, would it be at all beneficial if the UK were to join the peace talks with Arab and American allies, or would that be futile? What occurs to you? Thank you very much.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I would like to see the United Kingdom, as I mentioned, Yanni, not only recognise Palestine as a state, but perhaps also take some of the actions that I would recommend for the United States, which is cutting back the supply of weaponry and other support for – to Israel. I think that would be a very important step in forcing Mr Netanyahu, or whoever succeeds him in Israel, to be more forthcoming on the two-state solution. These are steps, I think, that can be taken by the United Kingdom.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Okay, again in the middle. People were very, very quick in the middle to get their hands up and…
Mohammad Al-mail
My name is Mohammad Al-mail from Kuwait, and I am independent Researcher, and I have two points. The first point is, why do you prioritise the scene as a war between Israel and Hamas and not between Israel and Palestinian people? And the second point is, we may appreciate your father, King Faisal’s, strong position against Israel, but what do you have to say for the current government’s shameful behaviour today? Are you not deeply ashamed that instead of taking a stand for justice, you prioritise the political manoeuvring? This is not just a failure. This is a disgrace for the Arab world. So, how can you justify this vitriol…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
That’s now…
Mohammad Al-mail
…to those…?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
…three questions, not two.
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah, it – yeah, and…
Mohammad Al-mail
I have a question, so, my question is…
Bronwen Maddox
Mohammed, forgive me, I normally impose a rule of one question. You’ve managed to…
Mohammad Al-mail
So, the first question was, why you don’t consider it as a war between the Palestinian and Israel and not – and you consider it as it’s between Hamas and Israel. The second question is, when you will stop hiding behind…
Bronwen Maddox
Oh, yeah, we’ve…
Mohammad Al-mail
…behind the…
Bronwen Maddox
…had that one.
Mohammad Al-mail
…rhetoric?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Okay, yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
Right, thank you, about the position…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
On the issue…
Bronwen Maddox
…of the government.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
…of war between Gaza and – as I mentioned, Yanni, the Israel onslaught is not just on Gaza, it’s also on the West Bank. If the terminology comes out as being a war between Gaza and Hauer – Hamas and Israel, it’s because this is what is being mentioned in the media and in other statements by other people. But definitely, my consideration is that Israel’s occupation of Palestine is inclusive, not just of Gaza, but also the West Bank and all of the destruction and mayhem that Israel has been causing is not confined to Gaza. But as I mentioned, it is also being done in the West Bank. So, I really don’t differentiate between the two. If you want to interpret it in one way, that is your option.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay, woman over by the door.
Farah Al Zadjali
Thank you, Your Royal – is it working? Do you hear me?
Bronwen Maddox
Yes.
Farah Al Zadjali
Ah, okay. Thank you, Your Royal Highness. My name is Farah from SRMG Think. Is the prospect of normalisation is dead? What do you think?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Can you…?
Bronwen Maddox
Is normalisation dead?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Is what?
Bronwen Maddox
Normalisation, is the prospect dead?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Well, you tell me. If you have an Israeli Government that says, “I’m not going to recognise a Palestinian State, as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, there’s no normalisation. It has been public, it’s been stated many times at the highest levels and our Ambassador here has said it on many occasions. So, that’s where it stands.
Bronwen Maddox
Two rows in front of you, at the edge.
Kashish Parpiani
Thank you. Kashish Parpiani from Reliance Industries, India. Your Royal Highness, thank you so much for speaking on such a varied range of issues. I’d like to get your views on the prospect of economic integration within the region and beyond. As you may know, one month before October 7, countries from across Middle East and Europe came together with India to announce the India-Middle East-Europe Economic Corridor. How do you see that prospect now?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
It’s a work in progress and it’s going to take, I think, many years before it can be achieved. The agreement in principle has been done during the G20 meeting in India, but the details of that will have to be worked out. And the corridor, in my view and in what I see written about it, is that it’s going to be inclusive, not exclusive, Yanni. The channel of trade and commerce coming from the East, through the Arabian Peninsula, will be inclusive of all of the countries and not simply one or two countries in the area. So, wherever business initiative and entrepreneurship can take that commerce through trade and so on, it will be supported by the Saudi Government.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. There’s one here on the side and then, I am coming. There’s a couple up right at the back, being very patient. Here on the side.
Damien McElroy
[Pause] Thank you. Damien McElroy from The National newspaper. You’ve talked about Iran quite a bit. I wondered if you could talk about Russia in that context, as well. We’re getting briefings, for example, from the Americans about Iranian missiles going to Ukraine and whether you think there is any potential of a linkage between the current conflict we have in the Middle East to that other conflict in Europe as a result of the Iranian-Russian relationship.
Bronwen Maddox
So, this is a question about the role of Russia and relations between Russia and Iran and is there any connection between the conflict in Ukraine and the conflict between Israel and the Palestine – Pale…?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Everything nowadays is, you know, tied to each other and you really can’t tell which came first, the chicken or the egg, in this context. They’re all linked, Yanni. Iran’s position and the Ukraine and its support for Russia, is, I think, for the Iranians, is part of their not only willingness, but ability to come out of the sanctions and other measures that America and Europe has taken against Iran. And of course, because of Russia’s particular relationship with Iran, I think the Iranians feel that they must come through and help their friends, the Russians, who are – have stood with them in these sanctions issues and were party to the nuclear agreement of 2015.
Definitely, in the geostrategic composition of world affairs, the influence on – of that situation on what’s happening in our part of the world, is that it is identifying Iran and Russia as being in one position in that geostrategic composition of world affairs. And on the other – the opposite side, of course, what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank and Israel is also showing how far the Iranians can be a player in both that sphere and the Ukrainian sphere. So, from Iranian perspective, I think they want to show the rest of us that they are capable of doing things in multiple areas, not just in one area.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Right at the back, in the white shirt.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you very much. Hi, it’s – hello.
Bronwen Maddox
Hello.
Himan
How should I call you, Royal Highness Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz. My name is Himan. I am a PhD Researcher on financial crime, with focus on Russia, Iran and China. So, how do you view the impact of Turkey and Qatar on Hamas’s strategies in Gaza? Thank you.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I have not seen yet any effect of either Turkey or Qatar on making Hamas forthcoming on certain issues in the talks. What I read in the papers is that at certain times, Hamas have come out and said, “Yes, we agree” to certain things and then, as a result of that, Netanyahu changes the rules of that Accord or potential Accord and so, Hamas has to take a position of saying, “No, I do not accept what the Israelis want.” So, it’s a matter of, you know, each side wanting to better the other and using whatever support they get from others. Israel, of course, gets support from the United States and the European countries, and Hamas gets support from Turkey, from Iran and from Qatar. They change their positions, but I have not seen yet that either Turkey or Qatar can, as between quotation marks, ‘deliver’ Hamas to some agreement. And it’s tied to what happens on the other side, as well.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. I’m going to take one online from Mariam Miad, and she’s saying, what – I’m going to paraphrase, I’m sorry, what would Saudi Arabia consider an independent Palestinian State to be?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
It is what the Arab Peace Initiative has stated. It’s a state on the land of Palestine and the 1967 border of that time, inclusive of Jerusalem and all other parts of that territory, whether in Gaza or in the West Bank. That is not just a Saudi position, but that is a position of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which is the only legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, according not only to its constitution, but also according to Hamas, declaring that the PLO speaks for the Palestinians. So, it is not a uniquely Saudi position, but it is an Arab, and I think it is a world position, as well.
Bronwen Maddox
Here, Sanam Vakil, who is Director of our Middle East and North Africa Programme.
Dr Sanam Vakil
Good morning, Your Royal Highness. Thank you for being here with us. We’re so glad to have you.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
You had your say in my – in our panellists…
Dr Sanam Vakil
I wanted to ask you…
Bronwen Maddox
And another question.
Dr Sanam Vakil
…about something different than we’ve…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Okay.
Dr Sanam Vakil
…talked about earlier, if I may.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Yes.
Dr Sanam Vakil
About Afghanistan, where you have years of experience working on, you’ve written about in your book. And we’ve seen just recently the UAE reach out and…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Yeah.
Dr Sanam Vakil
…move forward in their relationship with the Taliban. And I know you have said today that you’re here in a informal capacity, but certainly, the government is looking to you for advice on Afghanistan, and what are you advising them? Is it time to restore diplomatic ties and engage with the Taliban? Keen to hear your views there.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you, and Nicole Pysher online has also asked, “What does Saudi Arabia feel about the Taliban? Do you have concerns about the Taliban rule?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
I’m not telling you a secret that my government does not consult with me, not just on Afghanistan, but on other issues. However, that does not prevent me from saying what I know and hear from their side, what they say about their relationship. The government has already said that it will work through the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation to provide humanitarian aid to the Afghan people. If there is more than that, I’m not aware of.
But my view is unless, and until, the Taliban come forward to implement what they promised that they would do when they became the responsible leadership in Afghanistan, that that is the limit of what the Kingdom should do with them, which is provide humanitarian aid through aid agencies and other non-governmental institutions. We have seen, unfortunately, in Afghanistan, a regression on the part of their leadership on what they had publicly declared they would do in Afghanistan. So, it is up to them to change their position, I think, before Saudi Arabia should engage with them, like the UAE is choosing to do that.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay. There are several questions online just following that of whether Saudi Arabia is concerned about the Taliban’s treatment of women.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Yes, indeed, and yeah, I think there is no question, not just the treatment of women, but treatment of other opposition or non-Taliban groups in Afghanistan. The Kingdom, hopefully, will be able to engage with others to convince the Taliban that they should be an inclusive representative of the Afghan people, as they promised that they would be when they took over in Kabul. They haven’t done that.
Bronwen Maddox
No.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
So, unless, and until, they do that, I think the Kingdom will remain where it is today.
Bronwen Maddox
Taliban and inclusive are not words you often get in the same sentence, but at the moment – at the back, with the green lanyard. Thank you.
Rayhan Uddin
Hi, my name is Rayhan Uddin, I’m from Middle East Eye. There’s been a widespread crackdown on displays of solidarity with Palestinians in Saudi Arabia. We’ve reported on people being detained for calling for a boycott of certain goods and others being arrested for wearing Keffiyehs. On other issues beyond Palestine, Salman Al-Ouda has been jailed for a long time for rather innocuous comments about relations with Qatar. Salma al-Shehab, a mother of two, was also jailed for innocuous tweets. You’re speaking very freely today. Will there ever be a time when ordinary Saudis can do the same about Palestine and about anything?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
The?
Bronwen Maddox
He’s asking about the crackdown within Saudi Arabia on expressions of support for Palestine and crackdowns on the freedom to speak generally in Saudi Arabia.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Well, I haven’t felt, myself, any restriction on my expressions of support for Palestine in Saudi Arabia. Nor have I seen any particular reporting on that, except perhaps in some publications that are not friendly to Saudi Arabia. But what I see of the Saudi press, whether written or on television or in the social media, is full support for Palestine and no restriction on expressing support for Palestinians. And the other one was on the?
Bronwen Maddox
No, that was the…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Was that it?
Bronwen Maddox
That was it.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Okay.
Bronwen Maddox
I’m going to take – we’re com – just, so, a couple of minutes more. I’m going to take two, maybe three, together. Right in the middle and then, the woman three on from you. Yes. Alright, no, great, I’ll take the three of you, please.
Amira Mustafa
Thank you. Salaam-alaikum.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Alaikum-salaam [mother tongue].
Amira Mustafa
Thank you so much, Your Highness…
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Thank you.
Amira Mustafa
…Your Royal Highness. Iran’s increasing influence in the region has recently been, sort of, solidified with the agreement or the connection with Sudan. They’ve established their relationship after eight years of no diplomatic relationship and started pretty strong, on a strong footing. How do you perceive Saudi Arabia’s role going forward, in Sudan specifically and in the region, to stabilise the region and for lack of better word, curb the Iranian influence within the region? Thank you.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Would you like to say who you are?
Amira Mustafa
Sorry, Amira Mustafa, Minerra Analytics.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Just take that one from Iran Analytics. Iran has solidified its relationship with Sudan. How do you see Saudi Arabia’s role, perhaps encountering that, are you suggesting, and in helping stabilise the region?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Well, the Kingdom has been leading the efforts to stop the fighting in the Sudan. As you know, both sides had been invited to the Kingdom to have discussions on ending the fighting there since it started, and I think those efforts are continuing. I don’t know if we – if there is a specific aim of Saudi Arabia, as you said, Yanni, to diminish or to lessen the Iranian influence in the Sudan. It’s up to the Sudanese to decide for themselves who they choose to work with. But the position of the Kingdom is that the fighting must stop yesterday, not tomorrow, and that both sides have to sit down and negotiate.
And there is what is called the Jeddah Agreement, which was based on the location of where those two sides met in Saudi Arabia. If the conditions of that agreement are put in place, I think that would lead to ending the fighting. And if Iran is taking advantage of the fighting to extend its influence in the Sudan, then ending the fighting in the Sudan will not allow Iran to take advantage of that.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you, and I’m going to take one final one, which is online and something we haven’t really touched on directly, and that is from Mehrdad Khonsari, asking, how much you are “concerned about the lack of progress in nuclear talks with Iran” and “What are the consequences of Iran getting closer to having nuclear weapons?”
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Well, I think all of us are concerned about what is happening in Iran and its nuclear ambitions. And unfortunately, Yanni, since the 2015 agreement between the West and Russia and China and Iran, the situation has gotten worse, not better. What I see reported in the press is that Iran is much closer today in acquiring nuclear capability. They never tell us in the press what ‘capability’ means, whether it is a nuclear device or a so-called threshold capability. Those are still uncertain words that they don’t use in that context. But it’s not just the Kingdom that is concerned, it’s the whole world is concerned about the expansion of nuclear weapons ability in the world.
The Kingdom’s position historically has been that the Middle East should be a zone free of weapons of mass destruction. Since that idea was proposed, ironically, in 1974 by Iran, when the late Shah proposed that there should be a nuclear free zone on developments in the Middle East completely. Subsequently, with the present revolutionary government coming into power, they continue to express their view that they want a zone free of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East, but their actions bely their words. So, I think it’s up to the world to make sure that Iran, not just Iran, but the rest of us in the Middle East, including Israel, should be denied the – having nuclear and weapons of mass destruction in their arsenals. That’s where Saudi Arabia stands, I think, officially.
Bronwen Maddox
It does stand there officially, but if the world fails to stop Iran getting nuclear weapons, which is possible, would Saudi Arabia then want nuclear weapons?
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Well, Gold help us, Yanni, if Iran gets their nuclear weapons. I can’t speak as a – of what I believe is going to happen, because I really don’t know what the intricacies of the situation is, but my government has publicly stated that – and my leadership has stated, that if Iran gets nuclear weapons, then Saudi Arabia will also seek to acquire similar capability. And that’s why we’re working very hard, not just with the United States, but also with the United Nations.
As you know, every five years, I think, since 2000 and – or since 1995, I think, there has been a five-year – every five years, there is a conference held at the United Nations, which is called the Review Conference on the Non-Proliferation Treaty, that was signed in 1960, I think, or 61 – 62. And in every five-year cycle, the world gets together in the United States – in the United Nations, to talk about the developments in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. In 2010, I was party to discussions, invited by Australia and Japan, to propose a programme for the then 2010 Review Conference in the United Nations, which that proposal stressed the fact that there need to be a zone free of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East.
And as a matter of fact, I wrote a paper on that for the Harvard Kennedy School some years back. You can look it up online. And there are things that can be done to bring about that zone, which would then obviate the need for anybody to have nuclear weapons in the Middle East. Basically, it starts with a United Nations Security Council guarantee that those countries in the Middle East that develop nuclear weapons should be sanctioned. And those sanctions to be included – to include in them even military sanction. And those countries that accept the zone free of weapons of mass destruction will get technical, economic and other support to develop civil uses for nuclear energy, because nuclear energy is an effective source of energy for the world.
So, that condition has not yet been met and I think in 2012, there was an effort to bring about discussions on a zone free of weapons of mass destruction, which when – after many travels of the delegates from the United Nations, who were trying to convince the world of establishing the zone free of weapons of mass destruction, alas, the United States withdrew from the talks. Whether they will change their mind now, in a new administration, I don’t know, but definitely, those five-year talks that can happen at the United Nations should lead the world to be convinced that not just Iran, but Saudia Arabia and Israel and other countries in the area, should not have nuclear weapons. That’s where I think I stand and that’s where I think my government stands.
Bronwen Maddox
We’re going to have to stop there. I’m sorry. There is an almost infinite number of subjects and very large number of hands up, and I really – sorry for that. We perhaps can regroup after the US election and pick up whole flanks of other questions. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for terrific questions [applause]. The same online [applause].
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Hmmm hmm.
Bronwen Maddox
Your Royal Highness.
HRH Prince Turki AlFaisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Thank you [applause].
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you [applause].
