Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay, so we’re livestreaming. This is a public meeting. My name is Alex Vines. I’m pleased to be chairing this meeting this afternoon. So, very much welcome to all of you, especially those who are livestreaming from all over the world, who are joining us, but also a warm welcome to the High Commissioners and Ambassadors that are joining us today, who are credited here in the United Kingdom.
So, we have a new Foreign and Co-operation Minister of South Africa, who is here to speak to us. What a remarkable change in South Africa there has been, with a government, a national unity. It is a really important moment. Investors, the world is watching South Africa, and today, reflecting on South Africa at Chatham House, I think, is an important moment, even in that in two days’ time South Africa celebrates its Nelson Mandela Day. And some of you might remember, Mandela spoke here at Chatham House in 1996 and a quote from his time at Chatham House is on one of our walls.
South Africa is a country that is a priority for our work at the institute and we’ve had our series of South Africans over our century, in fact, of existence, who have been speaking here. Oliver Tambo spoke here in 1985, Honourable Minister, and what we did, a couple of years ago, was actually get permission from the Tambo family to publish the speech. It was published in South Africa, in the Mail and Guardian. It’s on our website, ‘cause it had been, actually, under the Chatham House Rule, so the family gave us permission to lift it. It’s the first time ever, in Chatham House history, that a speech was – a presentation was removed from being under Chatham House role – Rule to be a public document.
It’s not just those from the African National Congress that have spoken here. So, this is a inclusive institute. The DA, John Steenhuisen, spoke here in 2022 of his political vision for a future South Africa. Mangosuthu Buthelezi of IFP spoke – the late Buthelezi spoke in 2005 and that was returning to Chatham House after 30 years. And as I explained to you, Minister, we also have had some of those that don’t necessarily want to join your government of national unity at the moment, such as the Commander-in-Chief, Julius Malema, he spoke here, red beret and all, in 2015.
So, we’re lucky that the Honourable Minister is over here celebrating 30 years of democracy in South Africa. He gave a moving presentation this morning at Westminster Abbey, which was looking back on the importance both of solidarity, but also partnership with the United Kingdom, to achieve majority rule in South Africa and the years of democratic South Africa. But the Minister also talked about looking to the future and I think today, the speech here that we’re going to have is going to focus a lot on the future. He – at Westminster Abbey, the Minister talked about ‘multilateralism’, the importance of ‘self-determination’. Obviously, something that’s very close to his focus, the Palestine-Gaza conflict. As you know, the Minister, his previous portfolio was Minister of Justice in South Africa and was very visible on the television screens, with a South African scarf, at times, round his neck, so – at the ICJ.
And then, finally, for us at Chatham House, and one thing that I’ll be wanting to listen very closely to is that South Africa is involved in big multilateral international fora. Clearly, I was in South Africa last year and saw the preparations for the BRICS Summit and the BRICS has expanded, but next year, as many of you are aware, South Africa is going to chair the G20. So, that’s an important moment, also, to listen to what’s South Africa’s vision for the G20. The African Union has joined the G20. It’s also an organisation that’s expanding.
So, with no more ado, I’m going to invite you, Honourable Minister, to give a presentation and then, we’ll have a Q&A and I’ll also be receiving some questions from our global audience. So, please, if you’d like to come up here. I’ll move the water along to you. Let’s meet – welcome the Honourable Minister [applause].
HE Ronald Lamola
Yeah, thank you very much to the Chatham House for this opportunity to engage with yourselves in this platform of sharing ideas and also, of reinforcing the freedom of speech. I am honoured to be in this house. As mentioned that I’m standing on the shoulders of great giants of our liberation struggle, like Nelson Mandela, Oliver Tambo, who have been here as liberation fighters, but Nelson Mandela came here after our democratic breakthrough as someone that is truth over adversity. And many other global leaders and people of influence who came to engage with this audience, here.
It’s an honour for me because it’s also happening two days before the world celebrates the Nelson Mandela Day, which is what we believe we’ve bequeathed to the people of the world, the spirit of Ubuntu, the spirit of humanity. Ubuntu, it’s, in South Africa, humanity. It’s a Zulu language for how we live together, how we share the common values, and it is against this background that today, the church at Westminster Abbey had given us an opportunity to celebrate with them 30 years of democracy in our country, which have been having challenges and there’s also been achievements. Firstly, we achieved to build political bases, institutions in our country, to shape our young democrats. But the 30 years we could not achieve equality, economic transformation and many challenges that continue to besiege our society, and those challenges include poverty, inequality and unemployment in South Africa.
We have recently had our general elections, where for the first time, the African National Congress, the ANC, could not get decisive majority to form a government on its own. As a result, we were forced by the people of South Africa to form a government of national unity, with the various political parties that received a percentage in the outcomes of our elections. And the government of national unity’s and cardinal constitution, where the parties have recommitted themselves to the constitution of the republic. But it has also been uncut on the statement of intent on broad principles to respect the constitution on a society-based on human rights, on international relations policy, also, with the human rights outlook, pursue Agenda 2063, putting Sustainable Development Goals by promoting co-operation between the Global South and North and fostering multilateralism to ultimately to contribute to the creation of a just and a peaceful and equitable world.
The government of national unity’s primary objectives in South Africa will also include the promotion of peace and stability in Africa, enhancing economic integration and development through the Africa Free Trade Agreement, supporting democratic governance and human rights, addressing regional security challenges, strengthening multilateralism. We will also advocate for the reform of the United Nations Security Council, for more representatives in the UN Security Council, particularly to have African countries and other under-represented regions having a permanent seat in the Security Council.
Our G20 forecast will also include equitable representation of – in global financial institutions. The reorganisation of ensuring that underdeveloped countries, like ourself, are able to access fair or equitable finance to enable the continent and also, South Africa, to be able to be in the mainstream of participating in the global economy. This will include the operationalisation or the implementation of the Africa Free Trade Agreement, which we see as an important flagship programme for the African continent. With emphasis also on one of the protocols that has been adopted by the last organ of the AU, one of mainstreaming youth development and economic participation in the African Continent and women participation.
These are very key, important drivers that must enable us to unleash the potential of the youth of the African Continent. As you are aware, the African Continent is a very youthful population and we believe that with more emphasis and energy in mainstreaming the participation of young people in the economies of their own countries, this will enable us to enhance and unearth the skills and the unlimited potential of the youth of the African Continent.
We will also continue our relationship in terms of the South-to-South Co-operation and also the South-to-North Co-operation, which also, was part of my visit to the Great Britain, which as I have said earlier, in the function at Westminster, is that the biggest anti-Apartheid movement in the world was in London. And for us, this was a humbling experience, a true spirit of solidarity. And I also believe after attending this event today, that it was also the biggest event outside South Africa of its kind in celebration of our 30 years of democracy. It has not happened anywhere in the world [applause]. It has not happened anywhere in the world to have +/-1,500 people celebrating 30 years of democracy of the South African people. This has renewed our belief in humanity, shared goals for the people of the Great Britain.
We also are of the view that such solidarity should be extended to all people of the world where injustice is occurring, such as the people in Gaza, in Palestine. And it is against that background that South Africa continues to advocate for a fair, a just and a peaceful resolution to the dispute and the conflict in that area of the Middle East. And it was also informed by our history and our party to now understanding of separate development that we took the matter of the plausible genocide in Gaza by the State of Israel to the ICG after many years, more than 30 years of campaigns. And it was also against this background that our Former President, Nelson Mandela, said that “South Africa is not free until the people of Palestine are free.”
It is also against this background that we support the peace initiative between Ukraine and Russia. Our President led an in – African initiative for peace in the Ukraine and Russia. He’s one of the only few world leaders who has been able to speak to President Zelenskyy and also to President Putin, to nudge them to a negotiation table to find long-lasting peace in the conflict.
We will also continue to participate in the various peace initiative processes in the African Continent, in Sudan, so in the eastern part of the DRC and also, with the terrorism challenges that we face in the southern part of Mozambique. We will also continue with our initiative for original integration within the Southern African development corpora – community in terms of economic trade, in terms of building our own manufacturing capacity, to be able to participate meaningfully and efficiently in the Africa Free Trade flagship Area. Thank you very much [applause].
Dr Alex Vines OBE
So, you see, Excellency, Minister Ronald Lamola, wants to hear from you. So, we have plenty of time. This was not a long speech and deliberately so. So, let’s get some questions going. We’ll take a few from the hall first and then, I’ll go to our virtual audience. And so, the lady just there, yeah, madam, there. Yeah, there’s a microphone coming to you, and we’ll take three questions and then, return to the Minister. Go ahead.
June Lewis
Thank you. Thank you, Honourable Minister, and welcome to the UK. My name is June Lewis. I am an Ambassador for a civil society group under the United Nations. Can I ask you, first of all, what does the United Nations mean for South Africa, and also, can you explain a bit more about your South-South? Thank you for including the women in your matters, but can I – can you just expand on how the United Nations will help South Africa and will you be going there for the GA Summit? Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay, there are a couple of questions there. So, the gentleman in the middle here. You sir, yeah, go ahead.
Nikita
Hiya, I’m Nikita, News Agency TASS. Minister, I’d like to ask you about a South Africa led peace initiative to bring conflict in Ukraine to an end. You just mentioned the peace mission of last year. Do you welcome the second peace mission to Russia and Ukraine? If affirmative, when could it take place, this summer or later in this year, and do you have any plan to unite efforts with other peace seeking actors, including Hungarian Prime Minister? Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay, and let’s go to the far corner, there, just – well, man here, yeah. That’s the first three questions.
Ian Sheridan
Yeah, okay.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Yeah, please tell us who you are.
Ian Sheridan
Okay, yes. My name’s Ian Sheridan. Good evening, everyone. So, I just wanted to say as a quick aside, my Teacher, Stan Silcott, was the first Headmaster of a multiracial school in South Africa, in the early 80s. So, there’s a very rich stream of British people caring about that era. So, my question concerns semiconductors, sir. So, simply, you must be aware, looking at NVIDIA and other British companies, in particular, that have talents in the context of semiconductors. Is this something that South Africa is investing in and thinking about? Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay. There you go, Minister. I’m also – have requested a pen and a notepad to come here in case that, you know, this gets too much for the typing, but please go ahead.
HE Ronald Lamola
Thank you very much. I can answer from here?
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Yes, you can.
HE Ronald Lamola
I don’t need…?
Dr Alex Vines OBE
You can.
HE Ronald Lamola
Oh, okay.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
So, we’ll got more questions in that way, yeah.
HE Ronald Lamola
Yeah. No, thank you. Firstly, the United Na – our view is that institutions of – multilateral institutions that have been created through global agreements by member states, like the Ukraine, they remain very important to resolve and attend to the global challenges, including achievement of the SDGs that have been set by such institutions. And it is against this background that we continue to participate in these multilateral forums as strategic centres to resolve and attend to the world challenges. And we believe that these institutions must be strengthened, they must be reformed where necessary, as you have heard us about the reform in the Security Council, having a seat by the AU, at the Security Council. We believe that this should help to modernise, to rejuvenate, to reignite the role of the UN as an institution of global governance that is relevant when they are conflict. You should not be able to have countries that have got exceptionalism or can act within impunity when you have such bodies.
We – with regards to the South-to-South Co-operation as an important anchor of our foreign policy, that we will continue to engage with the people of the South in terms of our own national interest document, to build co-operation, strengthen it, but also to bring investment in our country.
With regards to the North and South, it’s also part of our continuous deliberations with the Congress in the North and it is against that background that we continue to engage. I’ve just had an engagement today with your new Foreign Minister here in the Great Britain to strengthen our bilateral relations and strengthen the investment opportunities that arise from the two mutual beneficial countries. With respect, also, for sovereign states to make policy positions on foreign matters, on foreign policy, independently, on their own, and we’re able to stand firm, but while still having bilateral friendship in terms of economic trade.
Indeed, women are an – a central part of what the AU has agreed upon in the last organ, where they’ve adopted two protocols in relations to women and youth mainstreaming on the policies of the African Union. This should be made a reality so that the women are not on the margins of either decision-making or in the economies of the various African countries. That includes of – the youth.
With regards to the peace mission. We support the current peace initiative that happened in Switzerland. We participated, as a country, through the Security Advisor to the President of the Republic of South Africa. We just did not sign the statement outcome from the meeting, because there was a deadlock with regards to our position. We were of the firm view that for the peace mission to succeed, both warring factions must be on the table, Ukraine and Russia. We don’t see how you can achieve peace in this process without also engaging with Russia. And it is for that reason that our President, when he led the peace mission, he spoke to both President Zelenskyy and also, spoke to President Putin. So, we believe that the – in the – whatever peace mission initiative that must happen, it must include both parties so that there can be engagements that lead up to some kind of a solution.
With regards to semiconductors, I believe that the – all markets in the world needs them, but I don’t have very good expertise to be able to say this is where we’re investing with regards to the semiconductors. But all markets do need the semiconductors. They are part of a technology that is needed in the modern world. Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Great. I’m going to take – I will come back to you, but I do want to be democratic and allow those virtual guests, also, to ask some questions. Tighi, if you can bring up the notepad and pen for the Minister. So, we have a question here from Funmi Ogunlesi, who says, “How will His Excellency manage the delicate balancing act of assuring the West of its neutrality and goodwill, while continue to lead and strengthen its BRICS leadership with Russia and China in an increasingly multipolar and geopolitically fractured world?” That’s question number one.
We have Carlos Lopes, who used to be the UNECA Secretary-General, and I think is a resident in Cape Town at the moment. He says, “Does the Minister believe that the pan-African credentials of South African are undermined by xenoso – phobic statements and disturbances provoked by some of the sections of South Africa? So, that’s the second question.
And then, there’s a third question, which is by Carl Wright and he’s asking the following. He says, “At the Abbey service this morning, I was reminded about the role that the Commonwealth played alongside the UN in fighting Apartheid.” Minister, there are some people from the Commonwealth Secretariat in this room, by the way. “Can the Honourable Minister tell us about his government’s priorities for Commonwealth co-operation?” So, for example, there is competition for the next Secretary-General of the Commonwealth, which the three candidates are African. One is from SADC, from Lesotho. And then, he’s also asking, Carl Wright, about CHOGM in Samoa. “What is your view on Zimbabwe rejoining the Commonwealth?”
So, those are the questions [pause].
HE Ronald Lamola
Hmmm hmm.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
I’m glad you – you see what fun it is…
HE Ronald Lamola
Yeah.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
…to be at Chatham House.
HE Ronald Lamola
Thank you, thank you very much. As I have said, with regards to the North and South relations, we continue to engage at bilateral level and in various multilateral platforms, and we believe this is a mutually beneficial relationship that must benefit the – all the participants. There’s no-one begging for any aid or development, but we engage as equals in bilateral engagements with our North and South Engagements Forum. And we believe that such views like we hold on various human rights issues and our foreign policy should not really jeopardise the relationship that we have with the – bilateral relationship with any country. We should not be punished for the views we hold in terms of upholding human rights, because the views we hold are informed by, firstly, our constitution, our national interest document and also, by various charters of the UN guiding us on human rights, including various conventions that the UN has. And we continue to engage, to deepen our strategic relationship with countries in the North.
With regards to whether we believe that the pan-Africanist credentials are undermined by some sectors’ xenophobic – some sectors of South African society. There has been research in South Africa, conducted by the South African Human Rights – by the South African Research Council, which indicated that South Africans are not xenophobic. And there are, indeed, sometimes individuals who commit crime against foreign nationals in South Africa and such individuals must be dealt with in terms of the law. If it’s a crime against any foreign national, it must be dealt with as a crime, and if it’s a crime against any South African, it must also be dealt with as a crime. The Criminal Justice System must be able to process such individuals. They must be tried and prosecuted and where evidence exists, proven beyond doubt, be convicted.
With regards to the – our view with regards to the Commonwealth and the UN’s role in fighting Apartheid, indeed, it – we did mention earlier on at Westminster that it was an important role that was played by the Commonwealth and the UN. In fact, the – both the organisations played a huge role to – including to boycott products from South Africa, to campaign for the exclusion sanctions against Apartheid South Africa. It is also against that background that we continue to participate in the Commonwealth as one of the members, and the UN also had a resolution that declared Apartheid a crime against humanity.
The – with regards to the candidates from the African Continent. Indeed, we support the candidates. We will be able to make a firm decision, after deliberations, as to who among the three candidates that we support in South Africa.
With regards to Zimbabwe rejoining the Commonwealth, we have always been against the sanctions against Zimbabwe, because we have always believed that they harm us the same way they harm Zimbabwe. Because the economy of Zimbabwe ended up really struggling. It’s not only the individuals and when the country itself is affected, they – when the economy is not functioning, people of Zimbabwe will have to find refugee in South Africa. So, it’s against that background that South Africa has always been firm, but the way to resolve the dispute in Zimbabwe is to allow the people of Zimbabwe to go through their own democratic processes, their own systems and resolve the crisis, with the help of the people of the world. And we have played a role in that regard. So, we will always welcome Zimbabwe being allowed to be a member of the Commonwealth.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Thank you very…
HE Ronald Lamola
Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
…much. Let’s get some more questions. I haven’t done this side so far, so lady down here first. Further in front, yeah. We’ve still got reasonable time. Go ahead, introduce yourself.
Esther Vojcek
My name is Esther Vojcek. I’m from the Republic of Kenya and my question is rather direct. It’s coming from development and trade – development trade, with a nexus to security. As we know, development is a big part of Africa and it’s coming to, you know, take Africa to the next level in terms of trade, which is the Africa Free Continental Agreement – Trade Agreement. Are we looking at this – is South Africa, which is the only country in Africa that has strategic control laws which, basically, controls the movement of goods that have dual use purposes, which is security – which is civil purposes and military purposes. South Africa has the law that is in place to control that, but other countries in Africa don’t have that. So, if we are to look at the security of those goods in terms of emerging technologies, how is South Africa going to be able to champion that to add security in trade?
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Thank you very much. I’m looking right at the back, actually. So, yeah, I guess you. Yes, yeah, that’s the furthest hand at the back, yeah.
Paul Melly
Thank you. Paul Melly, Chatham House. Honourable Minister, could you tell us about South Africa’s view of its relations with the rest of the continent, particularly beyond the SADC region, and how you think the African institutions should deal with countries where we’ve had military coup d’état? Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay, thank you very much. Oh, my goodness. Well, let’s go to the far, here. We’ve still got more time. The good thing is that this Minister spoke briefly, so we have plenty of time. Yeah?
Ammar Sawad
Ammar Sawad, Journalist and Chatham House member. South Africa played a huge role in South – in Sudan before the war. Why stop now? What happened? What is the role of South Africa in this country and what is its attitude to that military cause in many countries in Africa?
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Yeah, thank you. Minister, lots of the questions I’m getting online are similar. What are you going to do about Sudan, and also, how are you handling the coups that are taking place on the continent?
HE Ronald Lamola
Thank you very much. With regards to the Africa Free Trade Area with a nexus to security, indeed, it is something that as part of the engagement on the Africa Free Trade Area, was raised as a concern. But the countries have now agreed in the majority for the implementation of the Africa Free Trade Area. The next step is to build the capability and the capacity in individual countries by themselves to be able to enable the free movement of the goods. And where there is a need, the African Union will support and help with such capability and capacity.
And South Africa is also standing ready to provide the support where it’s necessary, and I’m glad that the first shipment of goods has happened between South Africa and Ghana and both countries exchanged notes in terms of the capabilities and the capacity needed, including the technology to implement this Africa Free Trade Area arrangement, which I believe can be extended to many of the players in the signatories member states to the Africa Free Trade Area.
The – what is our role with regards to…?
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Coups, our constitution in respect…
HE Ronald Lamola
What is our views with regards to coups? We…
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Yeah.
HE Ronald Lamola
We are a constitutional democracy in South Africa. We believe in superior logic, that a change of government must happen through the pen. Where they vote electronically, it must happen through electronic voting. We condemn any form of coup, anywhere in the world, including in the African Continent, because we believe that they are not part of helping societies to be stable in the orderly transition in government. We have just recently come out of very painful elections, and I believe this a good example to anyone in the African Continent. The ANC, for the first time, did not get a decisive majority as a liberation movement. 30 years after being in power and after many years of struggle, which we celebrated today, it’s not easy to just accept that you have now not received the decisive majority. But we’re gracious and saw this as a message from the people of South Africa for us to rebuild trust, to reconnect with society and to rebuild the institutions of democracy.
We – and there were parties, certain fractions of parties, that wanted to undermine the outcomes of the elections. For the first time in the history of our elections, they even attempted to go to Court, like the MK Party. We accepted. We’re the first party to accept the outcomes of the elections and I believe that shall be a message to the entirety of the African Continent, that where things becomes difficult, even whether you’re a liberation movement or you’re in power, you accept the reality and build from that. And if there are grievances, which there are, I mean, there’s no part of the world where there are no grievances, and in, also, many parts of the African Continent, there are grievances with regards to governance issues, we should be able to use the institutions of governance to raise the grievances and to find a solution. And I believe that there’s such institutions exist and where there are challenges in internal countries, the African Union should be able to give the platform to such grievances and concerns.
And I believe that particularly with the approval of the Protocol on Youth and Women, we must be able to put more focus as the African Continent to resolve most of the grievances that young people of the continent are having, which is unemployment, poverty and inequality. If we can work as a collective to implement these protocols, most of these grievances of African resources being beneficiated in the African Continent, getting the young people to work to benefit the mineral resources, and also, to participate in emerging and new technologies and new development that includes AI, cryptocurrency and so forth, it will harness the energies of these young people and ensure that they participate, including the women of the African Continent.
It is also against this reason that South Africa is also leading an initiative on the issues related to strategic minerals, what do we do as a continent? At first, there was a commodity boom, which the African Continent was just for extraction, and those minerals have been processed or beneficiated outside the continent. But now, with the new technologies that needs some of the strategic minerals, like lithium and so forth, that are only found in some parts of the African Continent, there must be a conversation, how do we ensure that these strategic minerals are beneficiated in the African Continent, manufactured and processed? And we trade with the world on that level, but that will also need more direct investment because we may not have the resources to beneficiate at all. So, the Africa Free Trade Area flagship will really help us to move towards that implementation. It will also help us to see how that can be achieved, including this discussion on the strategic minerals. I know that some of you participate in such, kind of, discussions.
The issue in Sudan, what happened, whether we’re still there or not. Indeed, we are still there. As you will be aware, our President spoke to one of the leaders, the General, and there are processes for him to speak to the other leader. And we will continue to open the lines of communications for both parties to be involved, be engaged, in the initiative to find a peace in the area, and also, the external players in the conflict. Because it’s a open secret that there are a lot of external players, not only in Sudan, but in the eastern part of the GRC, that must be engaged to find long-lasting solution.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Minister, thank you very much. So, let’s move to the – towards the front, now. So, the lady here, first of all, with the red jacket. Yeah, not…
Monica Mutesa
Thank you. My name is Monica. I work for a global health organisation called PATH, and Your Excellency, my question is regarding G20. I mean, it’s a multilateral convening to, basically, have – discuss how do we cultivate stronger economies? But we can’t have stronger economies without healthier populations. So, I’d love to hear more from you about South Africa’s G20 ambitions, especially focusing on health, with climate change and antimicrobial resistance and emerging health threat. Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Thank you very much, and Minister, I’ll just add to that, ‘cause there’s a question here by Gail Smith online, just saying that “The Brazilian priority is tackling inequality as a central pillar.” So, the question is, “Are you going to follow that agenda, continue it from Brazil, or are you going to add something else?”
Now, the gentleman here who’s sitting in business class, right in the front, here, obviously, I have to offer him a question. Go ahead, sir.
Joe Mujapil
Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations, Minister. Is that…?
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Tell us who you are, that…
Joe Mujapil
Joe Mujapil is my name…
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Uh-huh.
Joe Mujapil
…from South Africa. Minister, you know in terms of our South African laws, you’re above the age of youth, but you still remain a young Minister and that’s very encouraging, and congratulations for that. Just a quick one, Minister, and I think it’s linked to some of the questions that have been raised, but I’ll put it slightly different, in that the Yamoussoukro Declaration calls for open skies agreements amongst the African countries, precisely to facilitate ease of movement of people, goods and services. And yet, on the ground, some of your colleagues are calling on stringent border controls or borders amongst African countries. So, in the skies we are opening. On the ground we are closing. What is it, Minister? Do you want to open the boundaries, or do you want to close them? And I would like to hear your views. Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay. So, gentleman there with the hat, please. Right. The microphone’s just…
Geoff Hill
Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
…next to you. Please introduce…
Geoff Hill
Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
…yourself.
Geoff Hill
Thank you. Minister, Geoff Hill, The Washington Times newspaper, normally based in Johannesburg, I might add. And so, may I just say that after 40 years in journalism, I wish more Ministers could pack so much detail into such a short speech. It was a delight. Minister, you have Ian Khama of Botswana currently living in exile in South Africa. You have an election coming up in Boswana shortly and of course, he is not exactly campaigning, but is certainly very involved. Has this affected your relations with Botswana?
And on Botswana and on South Africa, you’ve got Anglo-American about to sell De Beers and selling your platinum mines. Do you – I know this overlaps with Minister Gwede Mantashe and others, but do you have a view on South African assets being sold abroad, particularly strategic assets? Thank you, Minister.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay. I think there’s plenty on your plate there, Minister.
HE Ronald Lamola
Yeah, thank you very much. With regards to the G20 and health and what is our priorities with regards to the G20? Is when I started I did mention that we would want to see a just world order in terms of financing for developing countries, emerging out of the G20 programme. And we have ho – as you are aware, we had hosted the Conference Against Racism in Johannesburg in Durban some years ago. So, when we host the G20, it will be the 20 years of celebration of that period. So, we will also have to link it with the global solidarity with the various initiatives that we have in the world in terms of solidarity.
And with regards to health. Fortunately, our President was mandated by the AU in terms of health diplomacy during the period of COVID, where he was involved in the negotiations with regards to the vaccines that were hoarded in some parts of the world, in the North, and not being distributed equally, even when we had the resources to the African Continent. And that experience will position us well to continue to advocate for a just world process in terms of the WHO, that enables a fair participation and also, linkages in terms of health and capabilities and capacity.
The world was in a maze, sometimes confused with the capabilities that South Africa had during the COVID-19 period and sometimes we were ridiculed for telling the world that now a new wave of COVID has come in, because of our advanced research capability. It’s only after the world realised that what we’ve told them about this new development, that they started to stop to ridicule us, but to follow and link with our research institutions. And we would want to continue with that capability, to showcase that capability, even to the G20 countries and partners, in terms of health issues, in terms of global governance.
With regards to Mr Ian Khama, it’s true, he’s in South Africa, but there’s no formal South African Government position that he’s in exile in South Africa. I think he visits from time to time and engages, he participate in the tourism and so forth, but we have not yet formal concerns raised by the Government of Botswana that there are concerns about his frequent visit to our country. And if it’s raised, we will look into the matter and respond appropriately to the Botswana Government. As far as we know, our relations with them are still in good standing. We engage from time to time on a number of bilateral issues, on friendly terms with the Government of Botswana.
Our attitude with regards to the strategic minerals, as I’ve said earlier on, is a discussion that is currently unfolding with regard to strategic minerals. The Anglo deal and their intentions and so forth, I believe that the Board of Anglo is dealing with it and we will also deal with it in lines with our laws and regulations in South Africa, which are clear, fair and transparent in terms of how such a deal of that nature, under what circumstances can it be approved? And we also have various regulatory bodies, that it goes through the Competition Commissions, the Takeover Regulation Panels and also, the Mineral-Petroleum Development Act. All of them come into being and there is certainty and clarity as to why, how and what must be done. Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay. So, the gentleman there who’s been putting his pen higher than everybody else. No, no, at the front. No, no, there’s a competition of pens now.
Female Delegate
Yeah, it’s you at the back.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Yeah, you, go ahead.
Jack Lambert
Thank you very much. My name’s Jack Lambert. I work at a geopolitical advisory firm called Gatehouse. I was just wondering on the JETP, Just Energy Transition programme, what needs to happen to get that moving faster? There seems to be stuff around Eskom’s willingness to accept more loans and Western views on gas. But I guess more generally, to flip the political instability question, when you now look at the G7 and see Biden, Trudeau, Scholz, Macron, even Kishida, how do you interact with the G7 with all that change that might be coming?
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Thank you very much. The lady there. Yeah, that that la – yeah, that la – go on.
Lisa Carlson
Hiya, thank you very much, Your Excellency, for your speech and for your very in-depth answers. My name’s Lisa Carlson, I’m a Researcher at Oxford University. And I was wondering how a second Trump Presidency might influence South Africa’s position under the AGOA Agreement and whether the government is making any preparations. Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay. We’ll try and get one more round after this. The lady there, yeah, you go on, yeah.
Mamello [Letsoko]
Good evening, Minister. My name is Mamello. I’m a master’s student from South Africa. I’m doing a master’s in health policy and financing at the London School of Economics, a Chevening scholar. Thank you to the British Government for funding our master’s scholarships.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Congratulations on the scholarship.
Mamello [Letsoko]
Thank you very much. Minister, I’d like to follow up on the question from our colleague from PATH, who asked about health systems, specifically. So, in light of our President, Cyril Ramaphosa, signing the National Health Insurance Bill into law, looking at the fact that we have, you know, our government of national unity and the known systemic and systematic challenges within both the public and private health sectors in South Africa, what is the feasibility, or how realistic is it that the National Health Insurance will be implemented successfully in this term with the government of national unity? Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay. Why don’t you answer those and then, we’ll see how much time we have for one last thrust?
HE Ronald Lamola
Yeah. Thank you. The JET Energy Transition programme is still in force and under implementation. We, however, had challenges in our country of load shedding. I don’t know what you call it here in Britain.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Power cuts.
HE Ronald Lamola
Yeah, power cuts, yeah, power cuts, which were occasioned by a number of factors. The capability of the energy generating company, ESCO, including a lack of reform in the energy space, which were enabled through the energy reforms legislations that enabled individuals and their companies to produce their own capability in terms of electricity. But we also ramped up maintenance of the power stations of ESCO, which improved the energy availability factor and its capability to produce up to almost 70% energy availability factor now in South Africa. Which has helped us to have almost 100 days with no load shedding. I never thought I would live to see such. Well, we have to celebrate.
But this also had to come at the reality of us continuing to use coal, which is a natural resource that we have. And the JET programme expectation is that we had to decommission some of the power station. So, we had to [mothball – 54:07] bring them back, the decommissioned power station, to work and use the available natural resources that we have to help us to continue to have a energy supply that is sustainable, that is available and that is stable. So, it also impact on the amount that we can claim from the JET programme in terms of the other renewables. But there has also been a programme on renewable that is moving, which also, renewable energy has brought a lot of power now into the grid.
So, we have to balance the transition to be just. I think that is a term that is delaying a bid for it not to move at the faster pace, because the transition to just should not leave us with no electricity. The same capacity that we use to – as we build the new energy and all that, is not as equal to – as we decommissioned the power station. So, that is the reason why we still need to continue with the – some of the power stations that are dependent on coal, which is a natural resource that we have. And also, many parts of the global community, particularly in the North, have used coal to industrialise and they were able to survive. We must also be allowed to use it and to have a transition that is just.
So, I think that is the only aspect where there are issues, the pace of the transition, because we are saying it should be just, it should enable us to go with the cong – with the population, with our capacity to generate electricity, but also to, as we move to renewables, have people that are moving from those areas to be employed in the new renewable energies. Because we have got a high level of unemployment in South Africa, so that transition must be, indeed, just, people centred. So, that is when we are agreeing that, indeed, there must be transition. The new sources of energy are now changing and so forth. It’s a reality and were the most impacted in terms of climate change, but it must be done in a sustainable manner and a manner that is just.
With regards to the NHI – the Trump presidents. We – the bill she’s referring to is a bipartisan bill. It came from both sides of the American Congress, the Democrats and the Republicans. And South Africa, we had sent a delegation to engage with both sides and we will continue to engage with the lawmakers in the US, including the American Government, with regards to AGOA. We’re of the view that it’s mutually beneficial. It’s beneficial to us and it’s also beneficial to the US.
There are strategic minerals that the US can only find in South Africa, that they must see this as an opportunity for both sides. It’s not only beneficially to South Africa. It’s also beneficial to the US. So, all of us, as we engage with them, both sides, it’s an engagement that we believe that if AGOA continues with a preferential benefit to our country, it’s a good programme that benefits us, but it also benefits US, because some of our products are able to go to the US in a preferential way.
With regards to whether – how are we going to continue to engage with the G7? We view, as I said earlier on, all multilateral institutions the same way, that we must participate, either as the African Continent, and the way South Africa also participate, we must be on the table. Our views must be in sight there. We raise them there sharply about issues so fair for developing countries, just transition and so forth, but we must be on the table. So, it’s the same attitude to have with regards to the G7.
We – why – how do we view the second Trump Presidency? Unlike any other country, we don’t decide for citizens of other countries who they must vote for. It’s up to the Americans who they want to vote for. We will engage with whoever the Americans vote for. As I’ve said, we’re engaging with both sides, the Democrats, the Republicans, but it’s up to Americans who they want to vote for. So, we are watching the elections like all people of the world. We will not, unlike any player, try to intervene, do anything silly in the US. We will, obviously, as Democrats, condemn the incident that happened to Mr Trump and we hope that there will be peace in the relations in the US. They must not solve their problems through violence or through the barrel of the gun. They must solve it through the barrel of the pen in the ballot box and those who vote by mail and electronic, they must do so through that electronic platform.
The image I – it’s a – I’m happy I’m here in the Great Britain. It’s the home of NHS. So, you know it’s challenges here, I – it has challenges, but it just also had these advantages. We are also learning from yourselves, from the UK and we view it as a finance mechanism. South Africa is an unequal – one of the most unequal societies in the world, with very advancing private sector and a public sector that is absorbing almost 90% of the population, with 10% of medical aids absorbing the private sector. But the challenge we have is that with that 10%, it’s also subsidised by the state. So, you find a budgeting system that is skewed in favour of the few. Even myself, seated here as a Member of Parliament, my medical aid is subsidised. The private members’ medical aids, they are also subsidised by the state. But the general public going into the public hospitals in South Africa, they don’t receive the same.
The budget is skewed in favour of the rich, that’s what I’m trying to say. That most of the budget goes to the private individuals and the ones going into the public. So, this is the finance mechanism we are trying to solve this term in, and we’re not saying it’s perfect. What we are saying is that it cannot be vilified that we cannot try to solve the problem. And that is the environment that is currently in our country, where an attempt to solve this problem, this financing and funding problem of our health system, is vilified.
So, how are we going to find a solution if an attempt is vilified? So, we are saying it must be implemented and that’s why the President has signed the NHIP. It must be implemented. The challenges that are identified and the lessons that we are learning in the Great Britain, we must solve them in the process of implementation, because if we don’t implement or attempt to do anything, we will never have a solution to our healthcare problem. Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Okay, we’ve run out of time. I’m going to ask one question online and then, I’m sorry, we’ve been defeated by the clock, and the Minister has been asked – answering questions for 45 minutes, which is pretty much a record for a Foreign Minister in this hall. There’s a question from Tim Cole. Now, Tim Cole used to be a British Diplomat. He served in Mozambique, in Zimbabwe. He ended up being British Ambassador to Cuba, but he now works for an NGO, hence, maybe, the question. He’s not British Government any longer. So, he says, “Excellency, Minister, you met David Lammy,” and David Lammy, the new UK Foreign Secretary, has said he wants a reset in relations with the Global South. So, Tim’s question to you, Minister, is, “Which British policies do you believe are most in need of a reset?”
HE Ronald Lamola
Yeah, thank you, thank you. I had, indeed, a very fruitful engagement with Mr Lammy and the spirit was very good, where he was very clear that our relations should not be based on the fact that we are a former British colony. It should be based on equal beneficial relationship, which I think was a very good start in terms of economic trade engagements and investment in both the countries. Two friends, mutually beneficial relationship, that is his view, and I agree with him that it should be like that. We should see ourself as equals, friends with mutual beneficial relationship and we agreed to work on a number of issues, the just transition, the situation in Gaza, in Palestine. He also told me that he had very fruitful meetings in his visit there.
And we agree on the one, cessation of fire immediately, on the respect of international law, in particular, on humanitarian aid. So, there is a lot of commonalities between ourself, I believe, and the Great Britain, and it’s a relationship we will harness, we will build for the mutual benefit of both countries. Thank you.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Minister, thank you very much. You’ve spent…
HE Ronald Lamola
Oh, sorry…
Dr Alex Vines OBE
…a whole – oh, go on.
HE Ronald Lamola
…I forgot. We – the point where we really did not agree on each other is the Ukraine-Russia, how the – Great Britain views it and how we view the resolution of the conflict, but we agreed to continue to engage.
Dr Alex Vines OBE
Thank you [applause] [pause] – live and physical for asking the questions. I wish everyone a good evening and in two days’ time, enjoy Mandela Day. Thank you very much [applause].
