Bronwen Maddox
Hello, everyone, a very warm welcome and it’s terrific to see so many people here, despite the many transport afflictions of this country at the moment. We’re delighted to be having this discussion here today with the Foreign Minister of Hungary, Péter Szijjártó. It couldn’t be a better time, in a way. We’re coming right up to Hungary’s Presidency, the six-month rotating Presidency of the European Union, and that will follow, obviously, immediately after the much-heralded European elections and many, many issues in those elections that really go to the heart of what the European Union is planning for its future.
It’s fair to say that debate about Hungary’s position in the EU and its imminent Presidency has not been entirely routine. It’s not just another turn of the rotation. Hungary’s been a controversial presence in the EU since the election of Viktor Orbán in 2010, and it has challenged EU members on its own approach to courts. It’s had funds frozen by the EU, amounting to, at points, €30 billion, and they’ve been in dispute over packages of EU aid to Ukraine and separately, Sweden’s succession to NATO and so on. So, this has all raised questions about the EU’s own future, whether it can act with one voice, whether it still stands as a body that represents a set of values. And the European Parliament itself has challenged this particular Presidency in various votes over the past year.
So, the spotlight is really on Hungary and on you, as Foreign Minister. Let me just say a little bit about your terrific credentials to be here in this discussion. You have a degree in foreign affairs way back, been an MP for Fidesz since 2002, starting your sixth term just a couple of years ago. Communications Director of the party and a spokesperson and State Secretary for Foreign Affairs and External Economic Relations. And then, you have been in your post, we were just discussing upstairs, as Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, since 2014, which makes you one of the longest serving in that post in Europe. So, congratulations on that.
Péter Szijjártó
Thank you.
Bronwen Maddox
Very warm welcome from Chatham House.
Péter Szijjártó
Thank you so much.
Bronwen Maddox
Let me start by asking you, straightforwardly, what Hungary is going to do with its EU Presidency?
Péter Szijjártó
First of all, thank you so much for this wonderful honour that I can be here today in Chatham House. I was once in this room already. I was sitting exactly here, as I was the spokesperson for my Prime Minister, whom you were kind enough to invite. I think that was probably, what, ten/11…?
Member
13.
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, so, ten/11 years ago, right? Yeah, and I’m very happy to be here today. And you all know that we are going to take over the Presidency of the European Union at 1st of July, which will last until the 31st of December. I also have to share with you, very honestly, that not everybody is being happy with this fact, and – but there are rules which cannot be overwritten, so it’s us from the 1st of July, or at least now, we can make big bets on that, at least, as we are getting closer and closer.
So, we would have three very important priorities, which I would like to highlight just in one – in a couple of sentences, and I also have to tell you that we have to be very careful with the expectations, putting into consideration that three weeks before our Presidency would start, European Parliament elections will be held. And you can imagine that on the 1st of July, there’s still going to be the bargaining procedure, who’s going to fulfil which position? Which party group can be stronger than the other? What nationality the High Representative should be, and so on and so forth.
So, therefore, we have to be careful with expectations, but we will definitely make our best efforts in order to push forward the issue of the enlargement of the European Union to the Western Balkans. You know, we are a country which is a direct neighbour of this region. We are a country which understands very well the difference between a peaceful situation in the Western Balkans and unrest in the Western Balkans. And we all know very well what kind of impacts these two situations can put on the security and the progress of the entire European continent.
The five candidate countries in the Western Balkans have been in the waiting room in an average of 14 years and 11 months, 14 years and 11 months. The North Macedonians have been there for more than 18 years now. So, if we cannot make a forward progress on that matter, we will jeopardise the credibility of the enlargement policy of the European Union, which I do believe is one of the most important policies. And, you know, we are really, really in favour of these countries becoming members, because we understand that the European Union is now, kind of, having a shape being declined and we need some impetus, some freshness, some, you know, some new inspiration. And we all know it comes from outside, and I think that the Western Balkan is able to bring this freshness, this new dynamism to the European Union.
The second area where we would like to concentrate is our constant struggle against illegal migration. I understand that here, in UK, if I speak about the dangers of illegal migration, the audience is a bit more receptive than in other parts of the western part of Europe. We are located at the external border of the European Union. We have been putting a lot of emphasis on protecting our border. Last year, we stopped more than 200,000 illegal migrants, 275,000 the year before and, you know, we want international law to be respected, because international law speaks very clearly, “If one is being forced to escape from his or her home because of violent actions, then he or she is entitled to stay on the territory of the first safe country,” and not on the second, third or fourth, but the first.
And we, Hungary, are the best example, because we are the first safe country for the Ukrainians, who are fleeing from the war, and we have received more than a million refugees, more than a million refugees from Ukraine. We take good care of them, and we have let all of them enter Hungary. But on the southern border, those who wanted to come into Hungary in a very aggressive and violent way, they are coming from far away, crossing series of safe countries, so for them, definitely we are not the first safe country.
And the last point of mine, where we, again, agree with the British, that the competitiveness of the European Union should be helped and should be improved. If you look at the figures, you’ll see that China has overtaken us when it comes to share of global GDP. We are now only number three and in the European Union, we used to be number two. I mean, of course, Brexit plays a role in this, as well, because if you lose a G7 country with its economic achievement, obviously, you lose share in global GDP, as well. But we do believe that if you look at China’s patriotic economic policy, if you look at US, very patriotic economic policy, you know, led by IRA, then you understand that Europe should do something, as well, which helps the European companies and the European economy to improve.
So, these will be the three areas we try to concentrate on. We all know our barriers. We all know our limits. We all know the nature of the period which is coming, but at least, we will try to push files forward on those matters.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you very much, indeed, for that. Let me just pick up the first, very technical, point you made about the allocation of jobs that happens in the days after European Parliament elections. Obviously, you have some influence on this and the jobs, key posts to the Commission, and how are you going to go about this?
Péter Szijjártó
Look, let’s put it on a rational basis, I mean, this question, and raise the question whether Europe became a better place in the last five years or not. Whether Europe became a safer place in the last five years or not. Whether Europe became – European Union became more competitive in the last five years or not. And I would say that the track record of the decision-makers in Brussels, including the European Commission, including the Commissioners, including the President of the Commission, including the bureaucrats, has been very poor, very poor. Europe is in a worse shape currently than it used to be when this European administration entered into force in 2019. So, therefore, we would not like to see any of these top officials in their positions to continue after the elections.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you very much for that very direct answer.
Péter Szijjártó
Any more questions on that, or was I clear?
Bronwen Maddox
You were utterly clear…
Péter Szijjártó
Okay.
Bronwen Maddox
…on that and I might leave it to audience questions afterwards. I’m going to leave quite a lot of time for that. So, let me ask you, just going to the heart of this dispute that Hungary has had with the European Union for 14 years now, is the European Union going to change Hungary or is Hungary going to change the European Union?
Péter Szijjártó
You know, I think everybody’s more or less aware that we are a very characteristically right-wing government. We don’t really like leaving doubts in this regard or – and any other. We are a conservative, patriotic, right-wing government and it is really obvious for us, based on the debates and the struggles of the last 14 years, that Brussels and this whole international liberal mainstream which is ruling the European political arena, cannot digest that there’s a government which is being absolutely against the liberal mainstream, is still very successful and is supported by the people.
This combination, we understand, cannot be digested by Brussels, and when you ask me what I think about the real reason of the debates, or the attacks or the insults which are being put on us from Brussels and from other capitals, I would say this is the reason, this is the reason. Because the liberal mainstream tends to announce by itself that it is the only progressive, successful, acceptable way of political forward progress. Our approach is different, and I think with the existence of ours, I think with the fact that we have been in office for 14 years and we are supported by the people, will serve as an evidence that no, liberal mainstream is not the only way to go forward. And there’s a conservative, patriotic, right-wing, Christian, democratic way as well, which offers a way, moving forward, for a nation and for a country.
And yes, we would like to take part in the debates in the future, as well, about how European Union should look like in the future, because we do believe that a United States of Europe would be something really bad. We don’t want a more federalistic European Union. We want a European Union which consists of strong member states, because we do believe that European Union can only be strong in case the member states themselves are strong. And we don’t want more competencies to be transferred to Brussels. We don’t want more national competencies to be given up.
I think the crisis situation, especially during COVID, have shown very clearly that national decisions, intergovernmental co-operations, were much more effective in a crisis situation than the institutional solutions in Brussels. And in this regard, we regretted Brexit a lot. We really did regret Brexit a lot, because – and not because of your internal issues, because we respect them, but because by UK leaving European Union, a big bunch of common sense has left European Union, as well. And – you know, because in the debates about the future of EU, we were pretty much on the same side when it comes to rationality, subsidiarity, role of the member states, role of the national parliaments, migration and so on and so forth.
So, with you leaving, this debate between the federalists and the sovereigntists became very unbalanced, and the federalists are now, you know, trying to make a United States of Europe, which we don’t agree with. So, therefore, yes, we will continue to take part in these debates, and I hope we can shape Europe to our form than vice versa.
Bronwen Maddox
I took that gist of it. Thank you for that, but let me just press this point, because I was sitting here listening to you, and you framed it almost, you know, there’s a battle over political ideas and Hungary represents a certain set of ideas and here is what you’ve called the ‘liberal mainstream’. But the counter, I think, from many countries in Europe and certainly the oldest members of the European Union, would be these – this isn’t just a different political ideology that might come or go with an elected party. These are founding values of the European Union, and if Hungary does not subscribe to those, then what is it doing in this union? Is it just trying to take advantage of the benefits, the practical benefits, whether trade or movement of people or so on, of the European Union, but really, it’s not subscribing to what are basic defining values of this union?
Péter Szijjártó
You know, I’ve been fighting this perception for the last 14 years. Ten years as a Minister, four years before as an Aide to the Prime Minister and then, a State Secretary. And it’s getting, you know, frustrating in a way that these, kind of, philosophical issues are being put on the table and nobody’s curious about your position and nobody’s ready to answer what is being meant concretely. Because when it is being said that “You are not subscribing to the values of the Founding Fathers,” I said, “Yes, we do.” Okay, and that’s end of debate, and I – then they say, “There’s no freedom of media in Hungary.” And I say, “How you know that? You read it somewhere in a report of a liberal newspaper, or you’ve heard it from an international NGO with a very clear financial background, or how you know that? You speak Hungarian? Have you seen the media reports in Hungary? Are you aware of the fact that in all sectors of media, anti-government media outlets are far the market leaders? Are you aware of the fact that the most watched television in Hungary is very clearly anti-government, the most circulated daily is absolutely anti-government? The most viewed webpages are absolutely anti-government?”
So, if this is the case, then how can you say that there’s no freedom of media in Hungary, or when it comes to freedom of jurisdiction, for example? You know, that’s deep. I mean, look at the number of MPs of our party being either under investigation or sentenced to jail in the last 14 years and look at the number of the opposition Politicians. And you see that unfortunately, here we are in an advantage, as well, but I mean, if there was a pressure on the Hungarian jurisdiction system, if the justice system would not be – was not fair, then how could this happen?
So, I understand that it’s very – it’s an easy way – it’s a cheap way, you know, to try to discredit someone that you just, you know, throw such kind of philosophical issues on the table, but when it comes to reality, when it comes to the concrete issues, no-one cares. And I’m ready to discuss all these issues, but I remember when I was a Communications Director. We were always, you know, shocked by the fact that whatever you cannot say in 30 seconds, in a 30 second soundbite in the evening news, in the television, you cannot explain.
Now we are down to three to four seconds. If you cannot explain something within two – three to four seconds, you cannot explain. And now, it took, like, three minutes, four minutes, five minutes for me to say this, so, you know, everybody left the broadcast. So, that’s our struggle when it comes to fighting the perception.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm, although it is one of the pleasures of Chatham House that we…
Péter Szijjártó
Absolutely.
Bronwen Maddox
…give more than three or four seconds to think.
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
So, I will give you more than two…
Péter Szijjártó
I can come tomorrow, as well.
Bronwen Maddox
More – I will give you more than three or four seconds to…
Péter Szijjártó
Thank you so much.
Bronwen Maddox
…describe…
Péter Szijjártó
It’s good that you say that.
Bronwen Maddox
…Hungary’s relationship with Russia.
Péter Szijjártó
You know, when it comes to co-operation with Russia, there are areas where the sanctions do allow the co-operation and there are areas where sanctions do not allow the co-operation.
Bronwen Maddox
European sanctions?
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah, no, it’s just…
Péter Szijjártó
European sanctions, yeah. So, in areas which are affected and banned by the European sanctions, we do not co-operate. In areas which are not being banned by sanctions, we do co-operate and based on our national interests, we would like to improve the co-operation. Let me give you three examples why I say that the whole European Union and the whole North Atlantic community is super, super hypocritical on that. There’s a huge hypocrisy in this regard.
Bronwen Maddox
Specifically on the sanctions?
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, yeah, and on this whole relationship with Russia, just – just three quick instances. First, I am personally responsible in the Government for the construction of the new nuclear powerplant in Hungary. On nuclear, we are on the same page with United Kingdom, maybe not on the fact that we are working together with the Russians on them, but the – but on nuclear, we are on the same side. So, in 2014, we signed a contract with Rosatom, which is the Russian nuclear energy company, to build a nuclear powerplant for us, okay? We are now building the nuclear powerplant, the land preparation, everything is going on Russians, okay? If I take you to the sites tomorrow, you will see huge works going on, but you will see American, German and French subcontractors working on the site, paid by the Russians to work there, okay? So, this is my first point.
Second point of mine. We have been under constant pressure not to work together with the Russians on nuclear energy, not to buy nuclear fuel from the Russians. I mean, if you don’t buy nuclear fuel from the Russians, we have to shut down the nuclear powerplants of ours, nuclear powerplant which currently covers 33% of the electricity demand of ours. Okay, stop quo – stop buying nuclear fuel. Who was the number one supplier of uranium of the United States last year? Russia. United States spent more than $1 billon on Russian uranium last year. Russia was the number one uranium supplier of the United States last year, and they are putting pressure on us not to buy fuel from there.
Third point I want to make, oil. The Western Europeans are so proud of themselves, “We got rid of Russian oil. You Central Europeans who could not make it, you know, that’s how much we are better than you. You know we got you rid of Russian oil.” Share of Russian oil to India was below 1% before the war. Now it’s very close to 40%. Before the war Europe was not buying Indian oil. Now Europe is the number one customer of Indian oil. Indian oil, okay? So – and since we are not buying it, I guess there are others in Europe who are buying it and those must be those who say that they are not buying oil from Russia.
So, when it comes to co-operation with Russia, I understand it’s very easy to say that, you know, “Szijjártó is friend of Lavrov, Orbán is meeting with Putin, you know, you Hungarians, you are, you know, traitors. You are the propagandists of Kremlin.” Very easy to say, but when you look behind the scenes, you see that those who are accusing us, they are making much bigger business and much bigger deals with the Russians than we do. So, I mean, you have to look at facts. I understand politics is, you know, most – on many occasions, about perceptions, ideologies, as well, but if you look at the facts, then you find some surprises. But, you know, it – not everybody is, you know, ready enough, you know, to look after these facts. So, that would be my answer.
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm, thank you. So, in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, what does Hungary want the outcome to be? Who do you want to win?
Péter Szijjártó
Look, we condemn this war. I mean, attacking another country, attanging – attacking a sovereign country, violating the territorial integrity of another county is simply unacceptable, simply unacceptable. We have to condemn it in the strongest possible way, and, you know, it’s very easy to say such kind of things here in London because I think every – all of you agree with me, I guess, on that, at least. It’s very easy to say such kind of things in Washington, in Berlin, in Rome, very nice places, Prague, Warsaw, very easy. My question is, why I was the only one so far, among the European Politicians, who said it directly, openly and honestly to the Russians in Russia. I was sitting on the stage…
Bronwen Maddox
And you’re saying – you said directly that you opposed…
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, yeah, I’ll…
Bronwen Maddox
…the invasion…
Péter Szijjártó
…tell you…
Bronwen Maddox
…of another country?
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, yeah, I tell you the story. I was participating in the Russian Energy Week, a huge event, a huge event in Moscow. I was sitting on the stage. Deputy Prime Minister of Russia was sitting a – either of side – so next to me. Deputy Prime Minister of Russia responsible for energy, Mr Novak, and the leaders, five or six of them, of the biggest Russian energy companies, the number ones, okay? There were around 1,000 spectators, 1,000 spectators in the hall, and I said it very clearly that “This war is bad to us. This war we do condemn. Please stop it.” That’s what I say, you know. I mean, why I’m the only one? Why others only say it in London, Berlin and Washington? I understand it doesn’t require any braveness, so, I mean, you can do it, it’s very easy, but do we dare? Do we dare?
Now, we are a neighbouring country to Ukraine. We are a neighbouring country to Ukraine and thanks God, no Luxembourgish, no Danish, no Dutch people died in this war yet, but many Hungarians did. It’s not very well-known, not very widely known that – but many Hungarians died in this war already. We have a big Hungarian community there, members of which are ethnic Hungarians, they speak Hungarian, they are Hungarians, but they are Ukrainian citizens, obviously, that are living in the territory on Ukraine. So, they are being recruited, mobilised to be a Ukrainian Army big time. Most of them have been deployed to the frontline and most of them have died, basically, immediately. A lot of Hungarian people died and really, Hungarians, we do not want more Hungarian people and we do not want more people, generally, to die in this war.
And that explains our position, for example, when it comes to the weapon deliveries. You know, I think we are the only NATO member state who does not deliver weapons. The Slovaks are not delivering now, but they used to, but we have not delivered weapons. We are among the very few in Europe, generally, who have not delivered weapons. And you know why? Because we do believe, and here we are totally in a tiny minority here in Europe, but not minority globally, we think that this war does not have a solution on the battlefield. And the weapon deliveries will not make Ukraine win, will not make Ukraine win.
The weapon deliveries will end up in more weapons being present in the war and if there are more weapons, then more people will die. But the weapon – with the weapon deliveries, you cannot beat the Russians, because look at the facts. Whenever there are Western deliveries taking place, the Russians deploy the same amount, or just a bit more to keep the lines. When the West delivers the weapons, the Russians deploy weapons there. I mean, last two years, so many weapons were sent to Ukraine and the battlefield situation didn’t change. So, therefore, the only way how you could say that a – I mean, so, really, this way, you cannot beat Russia. If you think about beating Russia, I think you think about methodologies which end up in the escalation of the war and the global world war to break out, and we simply don’t want that.
Bronwen Maddox
Alright.
Péter Szijjártó
So, yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
So, you’re against giving more weapons. You want an end to this war.
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, we want it to come to an end.
Bronwen Maddox
But you’re also – you’re – you have stood up, you said, and criticised Russia for in…
Péter Szijjártó
Sure, obviously.
Bronwen Maddox
…invading Ukraine…
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Bronwen Maddox
…offending this principle of sovereignty. So, do you think it is acceptable that Russia retains some territory it has taken from Ukraine? What does that do to international law and this principle of sovereignty?
Péter Szijjártó
No, once again, I have to underline that terri – respect to a territorial integrity of all countries is a must. So, it’s unacceptable that you attack a country and you rob territories. It’s unacceptable, it’s unacceptable. But the question is not what we think about the war. The question is not what we think about territorial integrity. The question is, or the debate between us and others, is that – how to stop the war, how to put an end to this war, because we still do not believe that there’s a battlefield solution. The only solution is around the negotiating table.
We have to encourage, urge, push, whatever, the participants of this war to make ceasefire immediately, stop killing people, sit around the table and come to an ag – come to a peace agreement. That’s the way how you can save lives of the people and how you can put an end to this war. The – I mean, the longer this war takes, the more people will die, the more destruction will take place and we will not come closer to any just or fair solution.
Bronwen Maddox
Hungary blocked, for a time, the EU’s package of aid and support to Ukraine. It’s gone through now. Will that happen again, do you think?
Péter Szijjártó
Oh, no, I mean, this must be a mistake, sorry, to say, with all my respect.
Bronwen Maddox
Alright, can you…?
Péter Szijjártó
Because – sorry, because we have not blocked any aid to Ukraine. We are just simply not delivering weapons. We are carrying out the largest humanitarian operation of the history of our country. So, there’s no blocked aid from our side. The only thing what we said, “We do not deliver weapons. What the others do is their own responsibility.” What we don’t like is the sanction policy, because I mean, again, whenever we discuss the sanction policy and I’m brave enough to raise the question, “What is the goal?” and the goal is to push Russia on its knees and to push Russia stop the war. That was the goal two years ago and my question is, “Okay, two years gone, was the sanction regime helpful in this regard? Is Russia on its knees and is the war coming to an end? No.” And then, when I say, “Okay, then, let’s look at the impacts on us,” then, instead of making a fair analysis, the answer I get that “You are the propagandist or friend, you know, friend of the Russians, period.” So, this is the way of rational debates currently in the European Union.
But the sanctions policy have put a lot of harm on the European economies. I mean, look at us, for example, look at us. I mean, you – I mean, our inflation rate has skyrocketed to 27% last year. Last year we had to sacrifice in order to fight against inflation and bring it down. Now, it’s 3.8, but it was 27%, not because of us, because of this environment. Our national energy bill has increased from €7 billion to €17 billion, you know. So, as – and this huge increase, €10 billion extra. I mean, if you put into consideration our GDP is, like, 5% of that. So, that’s why we do believe that some rationality should be part of the decision-making procedure of ours, even if I understand that, in a war environment, it’s very complicated, maybe, to remain rational, but some rationality should be kept.
Bronwen Maddox
We are on the side of rationality here at…
Péter Szijjártó
Sorry, yeah?
Bronwen Maddox
…Chatham. We are on the side of rationality. Let me just…
Péter Szijjártó
I shall answer that.
Bronwen Maddox
…ask you, before we go to audience questions – and there’s some great ones coming in online and please do keep sending them. Let me ask you about China. President Xi is – had this tour of Europe. You’re flying back from here to…
Péter Szijjártó
To welcome him.
Bronwen Maddox
…in – to welcome him as he lands, and there’s been a lot of reporting of new agreements between China and Hungary, a new powerplant and so on. And President Xi also published an open letter in the Hungarian press calling for Budapest to lead relations between Central and Eastern European nations and China. What is it that Hungary intends for this relationship?
Péter Szijjártó
Well, we do look at our co-operation with China as a huge chance and a huge opportunity. In 2020 and in 2023, it was the Chinese companies who invested the most in Hungary. So, last year, China was the number one investor. Aggregate, Germany is still number one, US is still number two, but aggregate now Chinese number three and they are picking up. Currently, there are investments in a volume of €16 billion which are just going on, happening. Are carried out by Chinese companies in Hungary, representing the highest level of standards when it’s come to technology and state of the art.
But if you raise the question why these Chinese companies are honouring us with their investments in such a big time, of course, part of the answer is that we are providing the best possible circumstances for all investors, including China, in the central part of Europe. But many of them come because of the Germans. Many have come because of the Germans because what happens in Hungary is the following. We became, kind of, meeting point for the Eastern and Western investors. We are one of the three countries in the world where the – all three German premium car makers are present, Audi, Mercedes, BMW. And we are the only country where the top three Chinese battery producers are present, as well.
And, you know, these Chinese battery producers are supplying the German factories. You know, BMW and its Chinese supplier, EVE Energy, number nine in the world, third biggest of China, you know, they have constructed their factories directly next to each other. CATL, which is the biggest electric battery manufacturing company of the world, Chinese, €7.8 billion of investment is now going on in Hungary becau – and they are constructing their factory. They came to Hungary to supply Mercedes.
So, actually, what happens in front of our eyes in Hungary is a meeting point between the Eastern and the Western economy. And we understand very clearly that strategic goals of these two can be reached much quicker and better and more effectively if they work together. So, when I hear my German colleague, Madam Baerbock, with all my respect, speaking about ‘decoupling’, speaking about, you know, ‘isolating’, maybe this is not the word she uses, sorry for that, so I – but you understand the meaning, of the Chinese and the European economy, I always raise a question myself that “How it is possible that then, the global CEOs of German companies usually call me and ask me to give incentives to their Chinese suppliers to come to Hungary to supply them?”
So, therefore, I think, again, the rationality is needed here. We look at China and the co-operation with China as a chance, as an opportunity, as something that helps Hungarian economy grow. As something that helps Hungarian economy to move to the next dimension, to be upgraded, technologically speaking. And, do you know, when I listen to those who say, “China is a threat,” then I raise my question that “Those countries are not having secret services or something, because we have our secret services. We have our national security structure and if this structure signals any threat or danger to us regarding some actions, then we don’t do them.”
So, what happens between us and China is absolutely advantageous from the perspective of our national interest and national economy. What would not be in our national interest, because of security reasons, for example, then we would not do it. So, I mean, this is also important from our perspective.
Bronwen Maddox
I think we are sitting now in a country that if it doesn’t quite use the word ‘threat’ about China, is still much more concerned about the threats that China might pose. You’ve just had a meeting with our Foreign Secretary…
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, absolutely.
Bronwen Maddox
…where they – I’m not going to ask you what came up, but I would not be surprised if this question came up. So, do you think the UK are – which you’ve given many compliments to already today, is the UK right in its assessment of China?
Péter Szijjártó
You know, I – the reason why I can’t answer this question is that I’m not the British, and I cannot think with a British mindset. And I always respect what others think about themselves, or I always respect what others think about issues from their own angle, and I think this is missing from international politics now. This mutual respect is missing pretty much, because, I mean, why would I know it better what the British should think about Chinese than the British themselves? But then, I will stick to my right to say that no-one knows better what is good for the Hungarians than the Hungarians themselves.
So, I don’t see China as a threat. You do see China as a threat, I understand that, and this position must be, well, founded from your own perspective, which I cannot judge because this is not my perspective, hmmm. And it should not put a shadow on our relationship, hmmm.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you very much. With that, could we have the lights up, please, and at least take some questions? I think the first hand up was right here, yeah.
Armida van Rij
Hi, I’m Armida van Rij. I’m Senior Research Fellow here at Chatham House and I head up the Europe Programme here. You started off by talking a lot about how the EU hasn’t been effective in recent years, how there’s a lack of dynamism and how that’s why enlargement would be a good thing. How you don’t want current – for the Commission, Parliament and such to come back for the next term. I just wondered whether you could reflect on Hungary’s role in disrupting EU policymaking.
And second question, if I may. You outlined as one of the priorities for the Presidency, certainly enlargement of the Western Balkans. What’s Hungary’s view on the reforms that would be needed within the EU to facilitate that and whether that’s qualified majority voting, budget allocation, the contributions, things like that? Thank you.
Bronwen Maddox
Alright, let’s just take that one and then comment on…
Péter Szijjártó
One-by-one, okay.
Bronwen Maddox
And then we can do this that way.
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah.
Péter Szijjártó
Okay. Yeah, thank you so much for the questions, a really important issue. When it comes to the European economic performance, you know, it’s not just something that falls down from the sky or comes out of the blue, or is being constructed just like this. The European economic performance, based on which we can judge the competitiveness and the effectiveness of the European Union, is an aggregate of the economic performance of the European member states. And here, I have to tell you I’m very proud. I’m very proud of our own economic performance, because usually, in the last 14 years, our growth rate was above the European average, which means that we have contributed positively to the European economic performance.
And on the other hand, you used ‘disruption’, I think, the word, yeah, which is not the first time I hear it, obviously, in relationship with ourselves. The fact is the following. There is a decision-making procedure in the European Union that in the most important questions, you need unanimity, okay? Now, my position is the following. In a democracy, it must be natural that there are different kind of use, different kind of approaches. But my experience is that if you do not represent the mainstream position in European Union, if you do not represent the position belonging to the majority, you are immediately stigmatised as disrupting, as anti-European, as non-European, whatever.
So, I think here, we have to change a bit the approach. A position represented by the EU member state not being in a majority must still be considered as a European position because it comes from Europe. And considering a position in minority anti-European, that’s very anti-democratic. That’s very anti-democratic. So, we stick to the phenomenon of unanimity, because in case we switch to qualified majority voting, then it will be the big guys who decide and the others will have only one right to say, “Yes, sir,” you know, or, “Yeah,” so that…
Bronwen Maddox
And that’s…
Péter Szijjártó
It’s – so, are we – do we really want to see Europe in this way in the future? So, I think what needs to be changed when it comes to enlargement, is leaving hypocrisy behind, and I tell you why. If you listen to European leaders, if you listen to my colleagues, for example, Foreign Ministers of different EU member states, openly, I mean, publicly, you hear them speaking positively about the enlargement, right? Almost everyone says that, “Yes, enlargement must take place. We need new members,” and so on and so forth. But when we come together, 27 of us, close the doors, we are in minority. So, those who are really supportive to enlargement, we are in minority.
And this is a big problem because the public statements of those who are positive towards enlargement openly, but negative in substance, they totally mislead and – they totally mislead those who want to join and humiliate them, because they have been keeping them in a waiting room for 14 years and 11 months in an average. My question is why we are not honest in this regard? So, that should be changed for enlargement, I think.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay, thank you very much. Let’s take some questions over here, on the aisle. Yeah?
Member
Good afternoon. I am an Italian Journalist for the daily newspaper, Corriere della Sera. You are certainly aware of the case of the Italian political activist sitting in jail in Budapest and the fact that she has been put on top of the list of candidates for the European Parliament. So, will she – she will definitely be elected for – to the European Parliament. So, you will have a European Member of Parliament sitting in jail in Budapest while you have the Presidency of the European Union. Is it going to be an embarrassment for you? How are you going to deal with it?
Péter Szijjártó
The embarrassment for me is how you are dealing with this issue, how the media deals with this issue and how the Italian political landscape deals with this issue. It’s shocking to me, to be honest, it’s shocking, because you are protecting a person who came with a goal, to Budapest, to beat up people on the streets. Do we really protect such kind of people? Do we really consider such kind of people as heroes? These people, including this lady, came to Budapest with a clear intention, to beat up people on the streets. What they have done, they have not found extreme right people. That’s why they hunted for people who were wearing black suits or black clothes and having less hair, because they thought that they were extreme right, and they beat them up on the street openly.
Have you seen the pictures of those persons, of that person, you know, these vipers who almost killed him? Look at the images and the pictures about the head, about the body of these people. And this lady come – came with this intention and they were beating up these people, and now she should be considered as a hero. And come on, where are we living? And we are accused for the treatment, how we deal with a person who came with such a cruel intention to Hungary. Sorry for keeping her in jail. What should we do with her? Put him in the middle of the hero square and show that this is the future of Europe?
Bronwen Maddox
I’m going to come over here to the side.
Péter Szijjártó
Hmmm hmm.
Bronwen Maddox
Let me try and take the – in fact, the two of you, there, and then, I’ll come over to here.
Member
Yeah, over here.
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah, I’m coming over to there.
Member
Yeah.
Member
Thank you. [Inaudible – 46:52] from Bloomberg News. I have two questions. The first one on China.
Bronwen Maddox
I’m really sorry.
Member
Put it to one?
Bronwen Maddox
Could you try and stick to one?
Member
Okay, one.
Bronwen Maddox
Yeah, okay.
Member
So, one is, could you be more specific about your experiences from the Xi visit to Hungary? There have been reports about that you expect to sign about, like, 16 agreements. Could you pick up a couple of them that you find the most important and give us more details about those agreements?ungary
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you.
Member
Some parameters, thank you.
Péter Szijjártó
Thank you so much, thank you. Actually, the current state of play is that there will be 18 agreements signed between the two delegations. There are – we have a big chance that there will be a common political declaration between the two heads of the delegations, which would improve the level of the nature of the co-operation between the two countries. You know, the Chinese are having certain categories. We are currently in a comprehensive strategic partnership. We hope for an upgrade in this regard. We will add a new area for our co-operation, which is nuclear. Oh, I have just agreed with the leadership of the China nuclear energy company about a full-range co-operation with Chinese on the nuclear front.
We are discussing about the preparation of new infrastructural projects. You know, we have been now modernising the railway line between Belgrade and Budapest in the framework of the One Belt One Road initiative financed by the Chinese. We are now planning some more infrastructural investments, partly together with the Serbs and partly on our own, on rail and on energy infrastructure. And we are discussing the chance of having new big Chinese industrial investments in the country.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Coming over here, on the aisle.
Ambassador Ilir Kapiti
Ambassador Kapiti, Republic of Kosova. On your speech, you pointed out five Western countries. To my understanding, there are six, so can I ask you which one you excluded?
Péter Szijjártó
When I spoke about the five Western Balkan candidate countries, I spoke about the five which have been in the waiting room from the longest time. And when I speak about Kosovo, you know, we are among the recognisers.
Ambassador Ilir Kapiti
Yes.
Péter Szijjártó
So, we have recognised Kosovo. I have a long track record of working together with at least seven Foreign Ministers from Kosovo in the last ten years, all of them good friends. As far as I recall, my scheduled Deputy Prime Minister is supposed to come next week.
Ambassador Ilir Kapiti
Yes.
Péter Szijjártó
And we have been, I think, very supportive to your security and stability through being a lead nation to care for. Hundreds of Hungarian troops are serving in Kosovo to ensure that the safety and stability of your country and of your people.
But there’s one point which I made very clear and here I’m – I can do it in a comfortable way, because I have shared this position of ours with our Kosovar friends, because we are always honest, and I think it is much easier, that we will only support Kosovo’s ambitions to join international organisations when the Belgrade-Prishtina dialogue resolves the current situation. You know, you can hide your position, you can mist it, but you don’t want to. So, parallelly to the support we all lend to Kosovo, we made it clear that when it comes to membership to European Union, when it comes to membership to Council of Europe, we will be only in a position to support when the Belgrade-Prishtina dialogue brought success to both of you. And we cross fingers and if we can be helpful in this regard, we are at your disposal.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Let me follow that with one I’m going to take from online, Marika Joly, who’s asking – who says, “Hungary has a dispute with Ukraine over the status of the Hungarian minority in Ukraine. Is your government planning to escalate this issue to block Ukraine’s accession to the EU?”
Péter Szijjártó
Let’s divide these two things, first. They, of course, have a strong interlink, but let’s divide the two questions, at least. So, there are a hund – there are 150,000 Hungarians living in Ukraine, in the western part of Ukraine. They are not migrants. They’re indigenous people, because they have always lived there. The borders have changed. There are even people who lived on the same place, but were citizens of four different countries and never the left the village, okay? So, they are Hungarians, in the genus Hungarians. And the Poroshenko administration started to diminish their rights since two – in 2015, and then, the following administrations followed it.
So, since 2015, the rights of the Hungarian minority have been diminished very badly, very badly. I mean, when it comes to education on mother tongue, when it comes to adminis – public administration, culture, media, you know. And it has escalated to a situation on the 1st of September last year that the operation of the Hungarian schools, 99, the Hungarian schools had to be ceased as Hungarian schools and they had to continue as Ukrainian schools partly teaching Hungarian. So, the number of subjects taught in Hungarian for the Hungarians has been radically reduced. So, the Hungarians, the representatives of theirs in Transcarpathia, are continuously telling me that the current situation from the perspective of minority rights is worse compared to the one under Soviet Union. And this is not what we say in Budapest. This is what the people say who are living there as members of our national communities.
In the last nine years, since 2015, I have negotiated with I don’t know how many Ukrainian Foreign Ministers, Ministers of Education, Ministers of European Integration, Ministers of whatever, to resolve this situation. And nothing has happened towards a positive direction. We make it very clear to the Ukrainians, that “Please restore the rights, give back the rights to the Hungarians which they used to have in 2015.” We don’t want anything extra. We don’t want anything extraordinary. We want those rights which they already had back in 2015, and I have to tell you, I – and…
Bronwen Maddox
Or that’s the position on…
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
Your position.
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
So, what about Ukraine, as I said?
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, and I – and what I have to tell you that as long as this does not take place, we are not in a position to support Ukraine on its way forward to a European integration. How would we? How would we? I – because it’s a European value, and you know, it’s – I mean, respect to national minorities, and, you know, it’s so frustrating. When I raised this issue on the format of European Union, my colleagues say, “Péter, this is not the right format. Péter, this is a bilateral issue. Péter, resolve it on a bilateral basis. Péter, don’t raise it here.” And then, when I raise it in NATO, “Péter, don’t raise it here.” When I – and when I raise it in OSCE, “Péter, this is not the right format.” When I raise it on Council of Europe, “Péter, come on.” So, they’re aware.
Member
They’re aware.
Péter Szijjártó
They’re aware, you know. So, therefore, we need to utilise, you know, our membership in these organisations to raise this issue, otherwise these Hungarians will not get back the rights what they used to have and what they should have.
Bronwen Maddox
It’s a lovely clear answer, but you have said you’re prepared for this one issue to stall the whole bigger question of Ukraine’s wider – because of this particular concern of your country and these 150,000 people…
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
…you’re prepared to stall something that European Union sees, perhaps, as integral to the security…
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah.
Bronwen Maddox
…of Europe?
Péter Szijjártó
But don’t consider the rights of 150,000 people as a minor issue because the way a country shows or does not show respect towards right of national minorities is already determining na – they’re determining from the perspective of judging whether they are ready to share those values which we have together, as common values, or not. So, I mean, it’s not just one separate issue, but that says a lot about the approach of a country.
And by the way, when it comes to the membership of Ukraine, I can tell you that Ukraine is absolutely not prepared for the membership in the European Union now. I think it’s obvious. But equally, European Union is not ready to have Ukraine as a member, at all, because we made just two very simple decisions which have tragic impacts. We just said, okay, in Brussels, “Let’s let the Ukraine – let’s let Ukrainian grain transit through Central Europe.” What happened? They ruined all the Central European agricultural markets. It was said that the Ukrainian logistic companies do not need road permissions to come to Europe. What happened? The Polish have blocked the borders with the Ukraine. The average waiting time for a Ukrainian Trucker to come to Hungary through Europe is 16 days.
So, I mean, you see, two very minor issues, huge impact. So, let’s take this issue seriously. Let’s take this issue seriously and EU membership is not a political issue. It’s a merit-based process, and when you have the Western Balkan countries with 14 years and 11 months in the waiting room, you cannot say that another country can be, you know, accessing on a fast-track. Because if you agree that this is a merit-based process, then we have to take it seriously. If you say that it’s a purely political, then why did we tell the Western Balkan countries that this is merit-based? You know, so…
Bronwen Maddox
Okay. We could continue on that for a very long time, but we’re not going to. I’ve got one here and then, I’m going right to the back.
Péter Szijjártó
[Inaudible – 56:44].
Bronwen Maddox
I’ve got one online and I’m going to try and get you in, and we’re coming – racing up to 2 o’clock. Let’s try – I’m going to take two at once. Please.
Ben Hall
Thanks very much. Ben Hall from the Financial Times. Can I just follow up on the Hungary-China co-operation? When you talk about full portfolio of nuclear energy co-operation, is Hungary ready to have a Chinese nuclear reactor on its territory? Will you become the first EU country to do so? And will you sign a deal with Great Wall Motors this week to build a big battery or EV factory?
Péter Szijjártó
Hmmm hmm.
Ben Hall
And if not, why not?
Bronwen Maddox
Let’s just take that one, as it needs a…
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, thank you so…
Bronwen Maddox
Oh, sorry.
Péter Szijjártó
Yeah, I’m sorry, sorry to – should I answer, or…?
Bronwen Maddox
Yes.
Péter Szijjártó
Okay. So, thank you for your questions. When it comes to a nuclear powerplant, Chinese in Hungary, that’s not realistic now for the foreseeable future, because we have now been constructing two new big blocks, which hopefully, will be connected to the grid to 2031/32. So, up to 2032, for sure, I will be busy with the construction of these two. But nuclear co-operation is much wider than just building a nuclear powerplant. You have recycling, you have research and engineering, all other issues.
And when it comes to further Chinese investments, I can tell you that we have some – we have negotiations going on with some big Chinese possible investors, but I would stick to my good habit that I only share information about negotiations when they are completed. And I can’t share any information now with you about completed negotiations.
Bronwen Maddox
Okay, thank you. Right at the back, this chap, here.
Henry Gyamfi
Thank you, Minister Péter, for your time. I really appreciate the insight that you’ve given us. I even want to take a picture with you. I love your charisma, great. My question is only by the…
Bronwen Maddox
Oh, you have to say who you are, please.
Henry Gyamfi
Yes, sorry, I thought about that. My name is Henry Gyamfi, I’m a Student Ambassador from the University of Buckingham. Now, my question is that – is a very transparent question. So, I love politics and you can’t separate, you know, Politician and Ministers with the idea of morals, ethics and, you know, how they carry themselves. Now, my question is a futuristic question. Where do you see the U – like, the EU leaders in terms of integrity and character, going? Because as we, as citizens, can we be rest assured that the leaders that are going to represent us are going to be people that are very moral and integral?
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you.
Henry Gyamfi
Thank you.
Péter Szijjártó
Well, thank you so much for your question. You know, we are in a lucky situation in Europe that in all EU countries, in all European countries, there are elections being held time to time, every four or five years, depending on the local rules and regulations. And every fourth or fifth year, the European citizens are having the chance to make a judgment about this question, for example, whether they consider their leaders, you know, fair and able to do the job or they are corrupt and they have to be thrown out from the job. And the European people make this judgment time to time.
Now, when it comes to the European – having to go to Brussels and then, it comes to integrity of Brussels, for example, well, we have seen the scandals of the European Parliament. We have seen the scandals of the Members of the European Parliament. We have seen the Members of the European Parliament being detained for corruption, and then, these same MEPs return to the Parliament and voted about a resolution saying that “Hungary is corrupt.” So, you know, I think that this should be taken very seriously into consideration what you have asked, and I really do hope that on the elections on the 9th of June, when people make their decision about whom they would like to offer as to represent them in the European Parliament, they will have this in mind what you have just raised, and thank you so much for raising it.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you. Alright, here on the – oh, last question and I’m going to take it together with one online. Yes, here.
Terri Paddock
Hi, Terri Paddock, Chatham House member. Donald Trump has frequently expressed his admiration for your Prime Minister and Orbán’s become a bit of a superstar for Republican events, like CPAC. What – do you think this is helpful for your relationship with the United States and what is your preferred outcome for the US presidential election?
Péter Szijjártó
Let’s make a guess.
Bronwen Maddox
Thank you, and that echoes the question from James Crisp of The Telegraph, which is also about Trump and your government’s excitement, or he says, “How excited is your government about the prospect of a Trump Presidency? What will it mean for Ukraine, Europe, NATO?”
Péter Szijjártó
Well, thank you so much for – personally and online, as well. So, we do consider politics as a job which is based on experience, and when it comes to our experience about the US-Hungary bilateral relationship, then we have a totally different experience from the time when President Trump was in office and the time before that and after that. During President Trump’s term, US-Hungary relations, politically, were in their best shape. Beforehand and afterwards, we are very deep, very deep. The current administration made its opinion about us and about the co-operation with us very clear, with terminating the double tax treaty and with eliminating the visa-free procedures. And if you look at the amount of money sent from the United States to opposition parties, NGOs and the opposition media in Hungary, you will understand that they have totally different goals in Hungary than we do. And there was a very serious interference into our national elections in 2022, on the side of the opposition, from the other side of the ocean, as well.
So, when it comes to our experience, under President Trump we had super relations. Under the Democrat administrations, we had very bad relations. So, from this perspective, allow us to say that it is logical that if President Trump comes back, then our relationship will be only in its top form again. If the Democrats continue, we don’t really see a change from this perspective. So, we – our opinion doesn’t count from the perspective that we are not Americans, we do not have a voting right, so it doesn’t matter what we think from this perspective. But if you ask me for what we are crossing fingers, of course, we’re crossing fingers for President Trump to win. But in the meantime, we always respected the decision of the voters of other countries about their own…
Bronwen Maddox
Hmmm hmm.
Péter Szijjártó
…decision and their own future. So, we respect the will of the Americans, but we hope that the US-Hungary relationship will come back to its best shape and definitely with President Trump, we have a good chance for that.
Bronwen Maddox
Great, and the point by James Crisp of The Telegraph and what would President Trump mean for NATO and Ukraine?
Péter Szijjártó
Well, we should ask him. I was a spokesperson for my Prime Minister. It would be complicated to be a spokesperson for the US President, but what I can – generally speaking. But what I can say is that if you ask me who is a foreseeable global leader who would bring the hope of peace in Ukraine with the best chance, then I could not name anyone else but Donald Trump. So – and I hope that with him returning into office, if this is the decision of the Americans, peace can come back to the central and eastern part of Europe, as well.
Bronwen Maddox
On that note, we are going to have to stop. Thank you for coming. Thank you for terrific questions. Thank you online. I got in as many as I could, not all, and I hope you’ve enjoyed watching it and listening to it. Thank you very much, indeed.
Péter Szijjártó
I appreciate…
Bronwen Maddox
Join me in thanking the Minister [applause].
Péter Szijjártó
Thank you so much.
